Does Polygamy Have a Legal Future in the U.S.

William

Veteran Member
Does Polygamy Have a Legal Future in the U.S.


http://www.religionwriter.com/faith-life/polyamory/does-polygamy-have-a-...

Andrea Useem, creator and publisher of ReligionWriter.com, is a freelance journalist and editor based in Northern Virginia who specializes in writing about religion. Andrea holds a Masters of Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School, as well as a Bachelors degree in religion from Dartmouth College. Previously, Andrea worked as a freelance journalist in Eastern Africa for four years; she has also lived in Muscat, Oman. She is married and has three sons.

May 11th, 2008 • Related • Filed Under

Having written previously about polyamory (maintaining multiple romantic relationships) and polygamy (well, really, polygyny — having more than one wife at at time,) I have been intensely interested in the on-going case in Texas, in which more than 400 children of polygamists were put into temporary state custody following allegations of physical and sexual abuse at the Yearning for Zion compound near Eldorado. The group in question is the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), one of a number of polygamy-practicing sects that broke away from the mainstream Mormon church when that church banned polygamy in 1890. If you want the latest and best coverage of the FLDS raid and subsequent child-custody case, check out the Salt Lake Tribune’s coverage and the blog of journalist Brooke Adams, who covers the polygamy beat for the paper. (And for a sympathetic insider’s point of view, check out the blog, Introspections of a Plural Wife, which is also keeping close tabs on the story. UPDATE: Scott, a ReligionWriter.com reader, points to this helpful primer on the FLDS issue and polygamy in The Week.)

While the FLDS drama has put polygamy on the front pages, what amazes me most about the issue are polygamists who live “normal” lives — and blog about it. I recently stumbled across yet another Lisa, Martin and Karen, authors of the Polygamy Now blogLisa, Martin and Karen, authors of the Polygamy Now blog pro-polygamy blog called Polygamy Now, which exemplifies this micro-trend of Americans quietly but openly living as polygamists. Polygamy Now is run by a three-person marriage, composed of Martin, a 59-year-old computer programmer who apparently works for Microsoft, and Karen, a 62-year-old retired teacher and mother of three, and Lisa, a 47-year-old mother and health educator. Writes Lisa in her blog profile: “I wasn’t looking for [a polygamous relationship]; it just happened.” As you can see from the photo, they look pretty, well, normal. What I found most fascinating about the site is its “personals.” In late April, for example, a couple called Charles and Clarice posted this:

Clarice and I are looking for a second wife. We live in Wisconsin and we have a huge new home. Charles is an engineer and Clarice works from home. Charles is mormon fundamentalist independent and Clarice is a Catholic. We have 5 children here. We are open to more.

Also in April a couple called Brandy and Ronnie posted a personal ad looking for a “sister wife.” They write:

Recently, after much prayer, we decided that polygyny was for us! I know many are curious, so I will say that it was me (Brandy) who first thought of the idea. I saw all the practical benefits as well as the fact that it is in line with our Christian beliefs. Although both of us are Christians, we are not specifically pursuing polygamy for religious purposes. Both of us believe that we believers should strive to the highest Christian ideal, but that at the same time recognize that we often miss the mark and that is where grace comes in!!

In spite of the splashy headlines from Texas, then, is polygamy becoming ever-so-slowly normalized? What does it say about enforcement of anti-bigamy laws if polygamists can openly blog about their relationships? And perhaps most importantly, if same-sex marriage becomes a legal option in the U.S., will any legal barriers to polygamy remain?

I had the opportunity to put these questions and more to John Witte, the director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory Law School who has written extensively about marriage. He explains why polygamy laws are rarely enforced, how “moral repugnance” is one of the last arguments against polygamy, and why having a concubine is still legal.

Andrea Useem: You’ve been following the case in Texas. Do any of the legal issues there concern polygamy? Will anyone be prosecuted for practicing polygamy?

John Witte Jr., director of the Center for the Study of Law and ReligionJohn Witte Jr., director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion

John Witte: I doubt it. The main questions are going be whether there’s child abuse, coerced underage marriage, and statutory rape. Those are the more serious issues at stake, and I suspect that prosecutors will focus on those.

Useem: Does that mean the state does not care that much about prosecuting polygamy, and that if it weren’t for those other crimes they would have just let the community be?

Witte: I can’t judge what calculus the prosecutor is using. I do know that Texas and every other state has had polygamy laws on the books since the time of their founding and that those laws are now largely dead letters.

Useem: So anti-polygamy laws are on the books but they’re not used?

Witte: Yes. There’s long been ample documentation of some 30,000 polygamous Mormon families scattered throughout the Western states, and there is recent anecdotal evidence of several thousand polygamous Muslim families, especially on the Eastern seaboard. But straight application of polygamy laws against those groups is rare. Partly states are trying to avoid the questions of constitutional freedom that inevitably will be raised if those parties are prosecuted for violation of polygamy laws.

Useem: What constitutional freedom issues does polygamy raise? In the Texas case, could you argue that since practicing polygamy is integral to that groups’ idea of salvation, then it should be allowed under freedom of religion in the First Amendment?

Witte: The US Supreme Court has said clearly that practicing polygamy is not a religious right; there’s no free-exercise right to evade any criminal law, including criminal laws against polygamy. That a party is religiously motivated to be in a polygamous union does not change the reality such a union is illegal.

Useem: Maybe this question’s too obvious, but why is polygamy illegal in the U.S.?

Witte: That’s a harder question to answer than it used to be. The answer used to be that polygamy was prohibited by the Bible and by tradition. Scripture as traditionally interpreted, required that marriage be formed by a union of two, not three or four, into one flesh. Scripture used marriage as an analogy for how Christ related to his church or how Yahweh related to his chosen people of Israel. Because of those Christian foundations, marriage had a particular form that couldn’t be renegotiated. The common law absorbed those teachings, and they were perpetuated in American law. Those were reasons enough in the old days. It’s harder to press that case today, given the First Amendment prohibitions against the establishment of religion.

Some of the alternative arguments against polygamy are worries about equal protection, that is, why should a man be able to have multiple wives but a woman not be able to have multiple husbands? Once you get past the inevitable jokes about who gets control of the television remote and which woman would be so crazy, it’s hard for that argument to stand up against a polygamists’ call for having the right of private association like anyone else.

Other arguments are about the transmission of sexual diseases within a rotating marital bed or communicable diseases within such large households. Those are pretty hard arguments to make now in the face of constitutional protections for casual sex with multiple partners and given that children and adults gather in all kinds of social settings.

There’s also an argument about administrative inefficiency. Our laws are predicated on the assumption of one definition of marriage. What would happen if the polygamist husband died, or what would happen if one of his wives filed for divorce? How would we distribute marital property, or what would we do about child custody or residual life insurance or Social Security benefits? But today we have all manner of single parents and multiple generations of mixed families that, taken together, far exceed the number of traditional two-parent households. So the administrative inefficiency argument doesn’t do much either.

The argument that still sticks is the argument from moral repugnancy, that it’s just plain wrong for parties to be engaged in a polygamous union. Here polygamy is compared to indentured servitude, or gambling, or prostitution, or obscenity, or incest, or sex with minors or organ selling and things of that sort. These are viewed as activities that are just wrong or will inevitably lead to wrong-doing. Whether somebody wants to engage in those activities voluntarily, for reasons of religion, or bravery, or custom, or autonomy, makes no difference.

That argument has been sufficient in the eyes of many to support the traditional prohibition on polygamy. Under current First Amendment free-exercise law, which doesn’t provide much protection for parties that bring claims of being unduly burdened by state regulations in this area, it will likely be sufficient to uphold the constitutionality of polygamy laws if they are challenged.

Useem: Now we have the show Big Love, which of course is a fictional story about a suburban polygamous family, but a quick trip around the blogosphere shows there are other Big Love-type families out there: religious, tax-paying suburbanite professionals who choose to live polygamously. If enough of those people appear on Oprah will those moral repugnance argument still stand up?

Witte: I think the moral repugnance argument may well erode through cultural acceptance of all these alternative domestic relationships. Whether that acceptance will be sufficient to change the constitutional law is an open question, but it certainly will be the grounds on which legislation can change. Fifty states have said collectively that polygamy is a criminal activity, and a counter argument that it’s a violation of the constitutional rights of polygamists is an insufficient argument under current First- and Fourteenth-Amendment law.

But if the culture changes so that polygamy becomes a more acceptable practice, eventually legislation is going to change, too, just as cultural acceptance of sodomy and fornication led to legislative change. And if the legislature changes its traditional laws against polygamy, federal courts would be hard pressed to find a constitutional reason to strike that legislation down.

Useem: Because nothing in the Constitution right now says marriage is only between “one man and one woman.”

Witte: Exactly. Remember, too, that domestic relations and family law questions are usually state questions not federal questions, and they’re usually legislative questions not constitutional questions. So if a state legislature chooses to change its definition of marriage to include different forms of marriage like polygamy, or different parties to marriage, including same-sex parties, the Constitution currently does not stand in the way of that state. The experiment we’re engaging in today with respect to same-sex marriage, or alternative civil unions, or domestic partnership unions, all of which are currently available under certain state laws, is going be the beachhead on which the legalization of polygamy will have to make its case.

Useem: Is a debate over legalized polygamy purely theoretical? Obviously gays and lesbians have organized and advocated publicly for same-sex marriage. Yet we have not seen any major push for the legalization of polygamy.

Witte: So far it’s still a theoretical issue – except for the actual polygamists who want protection. But 30 years ago same-sex marriage rights were a theoretical issue as well. While only a small portion of the population engages in the practice of same-sex relationships, a large portion of the population today can see the liberty, equality, and privacy concerns behind the call for same-sex marriage. It would require that same kind of groundswell of empathy to change the question of legalized polygamy from a theoretical one to a practical one. It’s not inconceivable that that could be a next step, especially if the move toward pluralization of the forms of marriage continues apace around the states.

Useem: Let me ask you a question posed on a religious polygamy blog: “Polygamy is in the Bible. At what point in the Judeo-Christian tradition did monogamy become the norm?”

Witte: In the Judeo-Christian tradition, monogamy came with the giving of the law on Mount Sinai — 613 commandments that comprised the Torah. The Torah has a whole series of laws making it clear that marriage is defined as the union of a man and a woman, with the man having rights to divorce the woman, and the woman and her children having certain claims against the estate of the man.

Prior to the giving of the Torah there were examples of polygamists. The first recorded one in the Bible is Lamech. Then we have Abraham, with Sarah his wife and Hagar his concubine or surrogate wife, and Jacob with Rachel and Leah. We have King David with multiple wives including one he took through homicidal adultery, Bathsheba. We have Solomon with a crowd of wives and children, who killed each other.

There are a lot of examples of polygamy in the Bible, and there are many examples of polygamous practice in the Jewish and Christian traditions from the first century forward. Intermittently in the history of the West anti-polygamy campaigns were mounted, with polygamists condemned as heretics and singled out for persecution. But there’s a small but persistent practice of polygamy in Western religious traditions.

Useem: Did the Torah also outlaw having concubines? I have found at least one Jewish website trying to revive that practice.

Witte: There’s a longstanding practice of concubinage in both the Jewish and Christian traditions. Concubinage is a generic term that covers two different kinds of relationships. One definition, derived from Roman law, is a relationship between a single man and a single woman who live in a quasi-marital relationship, but who are precluded from marriage either because of impediments that prohibit marriage, social disparities that discourage marriage, or lack of consent by their respective parents. That kind of relationship was eventually outlawed in Christian tradition, but morphed into “clandestine marriage” and later “common law” marriage

That’s different than the concubinage that we normally talk about, which is a man having a wife and then having a concubine on the side. That second type of concubinage was outlawed in the Christian tradition from the start, though it persisted notwithstanding laws against it.

In the Jewish tradition, as I understand it, concubinage is of the second sort, according to various passages in the Talmud, and it persists as an alternative that a man could pursue in lieu of marriage or in addition to marriage.

Useem: But that practice must have been dropped along the way, yes? We don’t usually hear Jews saying “It’s okay to have a concubine.”

Witte: When precisely it was outlawed in the Jewish tradition I don’t know. In the Christian tradition concubinage is practiced but is illegal from the 12th century forward.

Useem: Would it be fair to say concubinage is now legal, in that it is not illegal to have affairs if you’re married?

Witte: It is not criminal but it can give rise to civil sanction if the aggrieved spouse brings suit: it is a ground for divorce, and it can affect decisions about child custody and alimony. But you’re right, it’s no longer a criminal act. You are constitutionally protected in having sex with others as long as it’s consensual and as long as both parties are adults.
 

Ambros

Veteran Member
God i hope not. I have a terrible time finding ONE female i can deal with...much less a whole boat load!
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Polygamy never should have been illegal, provided that all involved parties are of age and willingly consent to the union.

Polygamy in the USA wasn't just a "Mormon Thing." Several Indian tribes practiced polygamy.

Quanah Parker, chief of the Comanche Nation, had six wives. He was told by an Indian agent that polygamy was now illegal, and that Quanah had to pick one wife to keep and send the others away. Quanah looked at the agent and said, "Fine. You go tell them, and pick the one that gets to stay." The agent never bothered Quanah again.
 

Micah68

Inactive
If we are going to expand the definition of marriage to include homosexual adults, we need to expand it to include any adults in any way in which they marry.
 

Zulu Cowboy

Keep It Real...
Quote: "Witte: The US Supreme Court has said clearly that practicing polygamy is not a religious right; there’s no free-exercise right to evade any criminal law, including criminal laws against polygamy. That a party is religiously motivated to be in a polygamous union does not change the reality such a union is illegal..."

I believe the Supreme Court decision he is referring to is Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1878). A case that held that religious duty was not a suitable defense to a criminal indictment. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

This decision was handed down back in 1878...a mere 20 years after the Dred Scott v. Sandford case...where the same Court (in it's wisdom), decreed that..."the drafters of the Constitution had viewed all African-Americans as "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."

The Court also presented an argument describing the feared results of granting Mr. Scott's petition:

"It would give to persons of the negro race, ...the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, ...the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

The 'mindset' and social values used by the Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case...is the very same 'mindset', and indeed could be some of the very same justices, who decided the Reynolds Polygamy case.

The totality of his argument seems to be...that since the Supreme Court has already decided this issue...130 years ago, that it can't be 'revisited' in this day and age.

Was the Dredd Scott decision etched in stone?

I think not...

And neither are our nation's views on it's marriage laws...

Zulu Cowboy
www.YearningForZion.com

- - - - - - - - - -
(First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution)

Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances...
 
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Bicycle Junkie

Resident dissident and troll
Lawrence v Texas and its underpinnings, Roe v Wade and Griswold v. Conn. can easily be extended to include consensual adult polygamy. I predict this will occur and within a generation it will become widespread.
 

Zulu Cowboy

Keep It Real...
You may be right, Bicycle Junkie...especially owing to the fact that the California Supreme Court has just decided that same-sex couples can now marry. Personally, I don't see how this nation can condone gay marriage, on the one hand...while condemning plural marriage on the other. It's just beyond belief... :screw:
It's like saying, since your gay lifestyle is now 'socially acceptable', people are now allowed to shun societal tradition, that has been in place for countless millennia...and the state will now recognize your same-sex union...but since these other people are framing 'their' lifestyle choice, in a religious context...we as a state, reject 'their' religious traditions, even though plural marriage has been practiced for thousands of years!

Does this make any sense?? :shr:

Zulu Cowboy
www.YearningForZion.com
 
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You may be right, Bicycle Junkie...especially owing to the fact that the California Supreme Court has just decided that same-sex couples can now marry. Personally, I don't see how this nation can condone gay marriage, on the one hand...while condemning plural marriage on the other. It's just beyond belief... :screw:
It's like saying, since your gay lifestyle is now 'socially acceptable', people are now allowed to shun societal tradition, that has been in place for countless millennia...and the state will now recognize your same-sex union...but since these other people are framing 'their' lifestyle choice, in a religious context...we as a state, reject 'their' religious traditions, even though plural marriage has been practiced for thousands of years!

Does this make any sense?? :shr:

Zulu Cowboy
www.YearningForZion.com

You forgot Zulu; those self same Gay married couples, will get to legally adopt children to...
 

TECH32

Inactive
I have NO problem with polygamy as long as ALL parties are of age and ALL parties are aware that multiple spouses are involved (i.e. no hiding one family in one city from another family in a different city).

Beyond that, the Govt. has NO business being involved....

Btw, a question to those who oppose it. Many biblical figures had multiple wives - how can you be opposed to it when God clearly accepted it?
 

Oilpatch Hand

3-Bomb General, TB2K Army
I'd love to see polygamy become legal.

So many men, so little time.....:whistle:

I believe the arrangement you're looking for is known as "polyandry," rather than polygamy. :lol:











Edited to add: Have you consulted with Mr. Sweet Baboo about this? (Just wondering.) :lkick:
 
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RJC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Every woman should have the civil right and government protection to have two or more husbands and a dog.
BTW, what is the adult age of consent for a dog?

I have a male cat that I’d like to marry but he likes the girl cat across the street what can I do to intimidate him to keep with the PC of whatever I want, the government must assert as my civil right.

Maybe I’ll have him castrated.
 

Warandra

Membership Revoked
Open Marraiges have many partners. But, if anyone seriuosly thinks any of this is workable in this society, keep two things in mind.

1 - Americans are lawsuit happy. Be prepared to lose more than your pants.

2 - See number one.
 

Tweakette

Irrelevant
Gee, with more than one husband maybe I could get one of them to take the garbage out :lol: .

Seriously, my general view, libertarian that I am, is that consenting adults should be able to enter into whatever kind of contract/living arrangement that they see fit as long as they don't expect me to pay for it.

And that last line ("don't expect me to pay for it") is where we're going to end up in a huge mess if the marriage laws/customs continue to change.

Think of things like:
corporate benefit and health insurance
inheritance
property rights
divorce and spousal support
etc..

All of these will end up being completely overhauled with millions enriching the lawyers.
I can see the cost of workplace health insurance skyrocketing as large groups of previously uninsurable people "marry"' for the insurance.
I can see courts backed up for years with cases related to inheritances when the primary spouse dies intestate.
I could go on but you get the drift.

Our legal system just isn't set up to handle this. It can barely cope with 2 gays getting married.

Is this a reason to outlaw plural marriage? I dunno. Maybe the legal system would be better off if we got people's personal business out of it and just relied on pure contract law for it. Or maybe it will be worse and cost everyone a lot more.

But it will be a colossal mess while the adjustment is made.

Tweak
 

Zulu Cowboy

Keep It Real...
Open Marraiges have many partners. But, if anyone seriuosly thinks any of this is workable in this society, keep two things in mind.

1 - Americans are lawsuit happy. Be prepared to lose more than your pants.

2 - See number one.

Let me set the record straight...the practice of polygamy, is NOT an 'open marriage'...it's not about having sex with as many partners as you can. It's a practice that is centered on the family, and on raising children...period!

The LDS church practiced polygamy up until about 1890, but discontinued the practice because they were being persecuted mercilessly for it. The FLDS split from the Mormons because they gave up the practice of polygamy.

Both of these religions emphasize chastity, and in not engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage. (It's not like this is an orgy we're talking about here folks! It's definitely NOT...

It's about bringing as many of our Heavenly Father's children into righteous homes, as each family can afford to...(at least, this is my understanding of it).

So when I read these damnable articles about polygamous couples engaging in 'sex cult' practices, I just think it's so very sad that the public is being misled by these sensationalist media accounts. Because this is NOT what the religious practice of polygamy is all about...Far from it!!!

It's a lie...meant to inflame extreme prejudice against these poor people. I mean, my God...take a look at them...even at how they dress! The women and men show absolutely no skin, beyond their face and hands...Do they look like perverts to you? They are chaste and try to live good, pure, sweet lives...for crying-out-loud!

And they are being labeled as freaks and child molesters...by a state system that is drunk on it's own power! And the media is enabling this, to get their goddamn ratings...

It's so evil...what is happening to these folks, and people just don't seem to get it! :bhd:

It's just sad...
:shk:
Zulu Cowboy
www.YearningForZion.com
 
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cvk

Inactive
Let's just eliminate religion from the subject for a second here. Does anyone else around here wonder how a society could run with people taking 20 wives and having 77 children or even taking two or three wives and having multiple children with each wife. Who in the devil is going to feed, clothe and take care of those children. We are crying that with one spouse we can't make it and you know as well as I do that plural wives (or husbands--whoopeeeeeeee) would not carry with it the requirement of being able to support the habit. If you think that welfare and food stamps are a problem now can you imagine it in a society of multiple marriage partners with large amounts of children per family. We can barely afford to keep one spouse and children from that union. Leaving aside any issues anyone might have about it being right or wrong can you see it being a feasible way to live under current conditions?
 

Micah68

Inactive
Let's just eliminate religion from the subject for a second here. Does anyone else around here wonder how a society could run with people taking 20 wives and having 77 children or even taking two or three wives and having multiple children with each wife. Who in the devil is going to feed, clothe and take care of those children. We are crying that with one spouse we can't make it and you know as well as I do that plural wives (or husbands--whoopeeeeeeee) would not carry with it the requirement of being able to support the habit. If you think that welfare and food stamps are a problem now can you imagine it in a society of multiple marriage partners with large amounts of children per family. We can barely afford to keep one spouse and children from that union. Leaving aside any issues anyone might have about it being right or wrong can you see it being a feasible way to live under current conditions?

Absolutely. We could easily support 8-10 more people (right now there are 11 of us), and assuming the other "wives" could work and we could expand the garden and fields (we have the land just not the time!), we could do more. The reason we could do that is we are debt free, grow most of our own food, and need very little money to live on. We do not live a spartan life (we have a large tv and satellite, the kids have bikes and roller blades) but we also do not go out to eat, we rent movies instead of going to them, we do not buy the toy of the month (we stick with legos, books, active toys, etc) and we buy things that can be passed down rather than things that will break or get dated.

It would mean that the large amounts of excess food we give to charity now would be used to feed our "family."

Do I think city dwellers could do it? Not most of them because of finances.

This is actually something I have thought much about. In a TEOTWAWKI situation, would good Christian men "adopt" single mothers and their children in order to keep them alive? Not necessarily sexually polygamous, but be willing to be the spiritual and physical leader in order to ensure survival. I could easily see situations where an existing rural family "adopts" several "wives and children." In our instance, we know two widows with children we would be willing to take in, as well as several elderly. Or would good Christian men act like worldly men and turn away all but their own?
 

Gordana

Inactive
I would like to see polygamy legalized, but not sure if it will happen any time soon. The social trend over the last couple of hundred years has been toward smaller and smaller social units - we've moved from the tribe to the extended family to the nuclear family...and even that is under constant pressure.

Maybe the desire to form polygamous relationships is a backlash against the increasing isolation and division occuring in society. Our tribal heritage isn't so easily forgotten.

Polygamy could even be seen as a revolution of sorts - a challenge to the status quo. The formation of strongly bonded groups within society could be seen as a threat by people who think it's in their interests to keep people weak through division. Maybe this is why the gov is coming down on these groups...just think...why otherwise should they care? The gov doesn't seem to care if a man sleeps with 100 women, as long as he doesn't actually make a strong commitment to more than one. This isn't logical if they're using a moral argument to justify their opposition to polygamy.
 

cvk

Inactive
Most people do not have land or the resources to grown their food. It would be about ALL people being able to marry multiple partners and I truely believe that very few would be able to finance the project or even have the brains to understand they were taking on more than they could handle. That leaves the burden to society in general.
 

Gordana

Inactive
Let's just eliminate religion from the subject for a second here. Does anyone else around here wonder how a society could run with people taking 20 wives and having 77 children or even taking two or three wives and having multiple children with each wife. Who in the devil is going to feed, clothe and take care of those children. We are crying that with one spouse we can't make it and you know as well as I do that plural wives (or husbands--whoopeeeeeeee) would not carry with it the requirement of being able to support the habit. If you think that welfare and food stamps are a problem now can you imagine it in a society of multiple marriage partners with large amounts of children per family. We can barely afford to keep one spouse and children from that union. Leaving aside any issues anyone might have about it being right or wrong can you see it being a feasible way to live under current conditions?

Yes, it's more than feasible....it would actually be easier to make ends meet. Let's be realistic for a minute and consider a situation where a man has 2 wives instead of 20, and 4 children instead of 77. A family of this size could comfortably fit into the monster suburban homes being built these days to house smaller families. So, overhead costs are almost the same - same mortgage cost, taxes, utilities a little higher. Higher cost for food, clothes, etc. But now you probably have 3 incomes instead of 2. By having another wife, you're not just adding another mouth to feed, but adding her abilities, talents, etc to your family. Even if the 2nd wife doesn't work outside the home, she can look after the children so they don't have to be raised by an institution.

Cvk, you're assuming that people who get into plygamous relationships are irresponsible. Some might be, but so are some who practice monogamy.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
The term "welfare" in most states is a misnomer. It actually consists of food stamps only for most people. Cash grants are given only to single-parent households (and the state goes after the absent parent in the meantime for child support) or families where one parent is disabled.

Home values and car values are counted against eligibility, and excess values can invalidate a claim.

The income of everyone in the household must be counted in the application. Adults are referred to look for work. Multiple adults (aka plural spouses) would be counted against welfare applications and a spouse who made too much could wreck a welfare application for everyone.

Doesn't have to bog society down
 

Fulltimer

Inactive
Polygamy is about old men and their Harems.

How many of those polygamist marriages consist of one woman with multiple spirit husbands?

Let's leave harems for the muzzies in the middle east. We don't need to try to legalize that nonsense here in America.



don;)
 
Polygamy is about old men and their Harems.

How many of those polygamist marriages consist of one woman with multiple spirit husbands?

Let's leave harems for the muzzies in the middle east. We don't need to try to legalize that nonsense here in America.



don;)

As per the usual Full Timer - YUR FULL OF $][it
 

Micah68

Inactive
Most people do not have land or the resources to grown their food. It would be about ALL people being able to marry multiple partners and I truely believe that very few would be able to finance the project or even have the brains to understand they were taking on more than they could handle. That leaves the burden to society in general.

I would agree in regards to the people who would most likely take it on - the inner city dwellers. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about suburban dwellers, but thinking out loud.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. both work, and their children are little so they have daycare or after school daycare expenses. They work long hours, so they eat out alot. Would bringing in another woman - one who stays home with the children and cooks from scratch - cost more than the money that she would save them by being at home? A few years down the road they have a total of 5 children. They bring in another working wife, and wife number two continues to be the stay at home mom who gardens, cooks from scratch, cares for the children. Now they have a third income.

Like I said, I am just thinking out loud and am not sure it would work that way since I have never been a suburban dwelling, working woman. I do know that as a farm wife with lots of children and a sometimes disabled mother in law I have occassionally thought that *I* needed a wife. :)

The more I think about this the more benefits I can see for the "modern" family. Multiple wives would mean one could always be home with the children, rather than the children being warehoused in daycare all day. It would mean healthier meals, hopefully less tv and more running around the yard so maybe less obesity. More parental supervision would mean less failing grades and less trouble and less teen pregnancy. Maybe men that leave their wives for other women would just choose to have 2 (not that the wronged woman would necessarily go for that!). Maybe this will be the wave of the future, LOL
 

Fulltimer

Inactive
I would agree in regards to the people who would most likely take it on - the inner city dwellers. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about suburban dwellers, but thinking out loud.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. both work, and their children are little so they have daycare or after school daycare expenses. They work long hours, so they eat out alot. Would bringing in another woman - one who stays home with the children and cooks from scratch - cost more than the money that she would save them by being at home? A few years down the road they have a total of 5 children. They bring in another working wife, and wife number two continues to be the stay at home mom who gardens, cooks from scratch, cares for the children. Now they have a third income.

Like I said, I am just thinking out loud and am not sure it would work that way since I have never been a suburban dwelling, working woman. I do know that as a farm wife with lots of children and a sometimes disabled mother in law I have occassionally thought that *I* needed a wife. :)

All that sounds plausible until the old man dies and all those younger brides start trying to divide up the estate.

Turns nasty really fast.

Just remember, it works for the Muslim world in the middle east because harem members have no rights and are considered property.




don
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
Some of the polygamous families have their wives....

go to work outside the home to bring in income. My friend had to work long hours in a bookstore to help support her polygamous husband and rest of the family. She had no children of her own, so who knows.....maybe she needed to be away from the family, but she sure wasn't happy or well.

The food stamps and welfare should work well, but only if the people receiving it don't lie about their circumstances. How many people on welfare do you all know who don't mention the husband who keeps coming home from the oil patch for a week on leave to visit the wife who is receiving welfare and is supposedly separated? If the gov. doesn't verify properly, then there is fraud.
 

cvk

Inactive
What I am "saying" is that this world is full of alot of irresponsible people. Not all of the people that take on multiple partners would have it all worked out like you are saying. I would venture to say that it would be a complete nightmare. As for homosexuals? I could care less if 100 homosexuals marry the same partner--they aren't MAKING babies for society to take care of so they can have multiple partners. How many people can balance their checkbooks or credit card purchases much less make a logical working situation out of multiple spouses? It would not be necessary to prove ability to handle the responsibility. Naw, they would just jump right in there and marry like crazy and then wonder what the devil went wrong.
 

Micah68

Inactive
All that sounds plausible until the old man dies and all those younger brides start trying to divide up the estate.

Turns nasty really fast.

Just remember, it works for the Muslim world in the middle east because harem members have no rights and are considered property.




don

You have such a low opinion of women. It's quite sad.

In the situation I was referring to, the women would be just as much family with or without the man. I realize that some family members fight when a parent dies, but do most? I think most people are more reasonable and try to work things out. Maybe I am naive.
 

cvk

Inactive
It sounds like one adult male pimping his stable. He makes babies and the dutiful little ladies care for them and work to bring in money for the brood.
 

Gordana

Inactive
You have such a low opinion of women. It's quite sad.

In the situation I was referring to, the women would be just as much family with or without the man. I realize that some family members fight when a parent dies, but do most? I think most people are more reasonable and try to work things out. Maybe I am naive.

No, Micah68, you're not naive. In order to live in a polygamous marriage, you'd have to be more selfless than usual, no room for jealousy or putting your needs ahead of the needs of others. With these sorts of attitudes prevailing, the family would be better able to overcome any hardships when they occur. Under the right circumstances, a polygamous relationship can bring out the best in people.
 

Troke

Deceased
Problem is easily solved. No polygamy unless #2 wife is older than #1 wife and so on.

Bet polygamy would die right there.
 

Gordana

Inactive
It sounds like one adult male pimping his stable. He makes babies and the dutiful little ladies care for them and work to bring in money for the brood.

Cvk, you have a very sad opinion of people. Do you not think the man can actually love his wives and that they might love him and love each other as sisters?
 

Freeholder

This too shall pass.
This is actually something I have thought much about. In a TEOTWAWKI situation, would good Christian men "adopt" single mothers and their children in order to keep them alive? Not necessarily sexually polygamous, but be willing to be the spiritual and physical leader in order to ensure survival. I could easily see situations where an existing rural family "adopts" several "wives and children." In our instance, we know two widows with children we would be willing to take in, as well as several elderly. Or would good Christian men act like worldly men and turn away all but their own?

I've already been in a church where the unmarried women were under the spiritual leadership of either the pastor or one of the elders, in a sort of 'spiritual husband' relationship -- not sexual at all, but just a man to provide some guidance when needed, or assist with some of the things that most women don't know much about such as car repairs. One of the biggest benefits was having someone to take with you to the mechanic, as mechanics are much less likely to try to rip off a knowledgeable male than a female. I thought it was a good idea -- feminists won't agree, of course, but the truth is that God made males and females different, and intended them to help one another with the different areas of life. I remember one of the older women needed help getting her finances figured out, so one of the men was assigned to help her with this -- a lot of older women, suddenly finding themselves single, have no idea how to manage all the money issues that their husbands used to take care of.

But, this is a far cry from a sexual husband-wife relationship. God never intended mankind to live in polygamy. He created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and Linda and Beverly! Polygamy was ALLOWED during O.T. times, but it wasn't God's perfect plan, and if you read carefully, you'll see that every one of those polygamous marriages had difficulties caused by the polygamy. There was serious conflict in Abraham's home, between Sarah and Hagar, and even between their respective sons. In fact, the descendents of Hagar's son Ishmael continue to plague the descendents of Isaac to this day.

There was conflict and jealousy between Jacob's two wives and two concubines, as well, and between their sons. That's why Joseph ended up a slave in Egypt for a time, because his brothers wanted to kill him.

There was conflict between the children of David's many wives, including rape and murder. And so it goes.

God ALLOWED divorce in the O.T., too, but that doesn't mean that He approved of it; He allowed it because of the sinfulness of man's (mankind's) hearts, not because it was good in His sight. I think the same applies to polygamy. I know I could never participate in a polygamous relationship. The idea of sharing a bed with a man who had shared a bed with another woman is totally repugnant. :kk2: The idea of sharing a bed with multiple men is equally repugnant. :kk2:

I think the only reason any of these discussions can even come up (same-sex marriage, polygamy) is because the values and standards of this country are largely no longer based on "How does GOD expect us to behave?" but are rather based on "Does it FEEL good?" (You know, if it feels good, do it!)

Kathleen
 

Micah68

Inactive
No, Micah68, you're not naive. In order to live in a polygamous marriage, you'd have to be more selfless than usual, no room for jealousy or putting your needs ahead of the needs of others. With these sorts of attitudes prevailing, the family would be better able to overcome any hardships when they occur. Under the right circumstances, a polygamous relationship can bring out the best in people.

Perhaps therein lies the differences in understanding. Those are all good, christian virtues that we are told to develop in ourselves, so I see them as being possible. Perhaps others do not?

Either way, I can see it becoming necessary in the future if things got bad enough. Again, I am not even necessarily talking about a sexual relationship, but about men stepping up and caring for women and children who have no one else to care for them.
 

Warandra

Membership Revoked
No, Micah68, you're not naive. In order to live in a polygamous marriage, you'd have to be more selfless than usual, no room for jealousy or putting your needs ahead of the needs of others. With these sorts of attitudes prevailing, the family would be better able to overcome any hardships when they occur. Under the right circumstances, a polygamous relationship can bring out the best in people.

Under the right circumstances, anything can bring out the best in any person. That's really nutty to say this about Old men raping little girls. THAT is what the raids in Texas were all about. And, anyone in this type of system is completely brainwashed (which doesn't excuse the adults who support the molesting of children in the name of God). If they'd take one minute to actually think, they'd decide that this isn't God's plan for ANYONE!
 
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