Heating oil prices
- Thread starter k-man
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TECH32
Inactive
Ditto here. I told my wife to start doing all laundry using cold water only. With the number of loads we run I figure it should save us at least 4+ gallons a week.
Copter Doctor
Inactive
To borrow a quote from a fellow TB2K'er: "Chop wood, haul water!"
BornFree
Came This Far
Many people who heat with fuel oil are going to freeze next winter. And if you think that is bad then Check out the price of Kerosene. Anyone whose fuel tank is located out doors can't use fuel oil in the NE because it will Gell in cold weather. Oil should be removed from the speculators market period. It should be illegal for anyone in the US to speculate on oil. What is happening is that the consumer is paying off the speculators. They are using oil as a hedge. That drives up the price. In the end the money goes into the pockets of the speculators. Nice Market system we have here in the US now.
This situation (predatory capitalism and trading of energy like stocks) will continue to occur until enough people die, and there is a huge upswelling of violence against the energy companies. As I've said in other posts, people WILL start dying of hypothermia IN THEIR OWN HOMES because they can no longer afford energy. And that's when you'll see people taking up arms. I give it a year or two MAX before it starts.
Remember this: Back in the 70's when we had the first oil shock, wages eventually attained parity with the higer cost of energy. ANYONE who thinks that will happen this time around needs to have their meds adjusted....
Remember this: Back in the 70's when we had the first oil shock, wages eventually attained parity with the higer cost of energy. ANYONE who thinks that will happen this time around needs to have their meds adjusted....
I can't remember the last time I used hot water for laundry. I've also cut way back on using the dishwasher as it uses so much hot water. It's not that big of a chore to wash dishes in the sink, though certainly not my favorite chore.
This past winter I kept the thermostats turned down further than ever. Then I used an electric heater in whatever room I was in to supplement the heat to keep it comfortable. Yes, the electric bill was higher, but not nearly as much higher as I expected. I like it cool for sleeping and if it got too cold I'd just add another blanket or two.
Freeholder
This too shall pass.
I'm thankful for electric heat -- as long as the electricity stays on! But am worried about my oldest daughter's family in New Hampshire. They can hook a wood stove up in the drafty, poorly-insulated 150-year-old house they live in, but it only heats part of the house, and wood is so expensive....the higher the price of oil goes, the higher the price of firewood is going to go, also. They could end up all having to sleep in the living room where the wood stove is (that's really the only room the stove heats, the way the house is laid out).
Kathleen
Kathleen
Dobbin
Faithful Steed
$4.09 here in Cow Hampshire. More expensive than motor gasoline (at $3.55)which includes a 25 cent road tax on top of everything.
I think it's driven by the diesel fuel market. Since the change to low sulfer diesel in October 2007, the energy companies seem to be pricing diesel at a "cost per mile" parity basis with gasoline. Bringing this pricing back to the heating oil consumer too puts a whole lot more money in someone else's pocket - which is what they want.
T Rowe Price New Era Fund (PRNEX) is made up primarily of oil and energy development companies. I invested early in 2007 and have basically seen my money double in the last year and a half. It's one of the few funds that haven't lost money in the recent downturn of the stockmarket. Guess you could say I have been a beneficiary in the gouging by the oil companies.
The home heat solution? Go somewhere else, do something else. That something may not be pretty, or comfortable, or easy, but it's possible.
During the last significant price run ups of the late 1970s, the oil companies and OPEC got a little scared when the American consumer suddenly started seeking out the "alternatives." For the first time in the history of burning oil, the use of oil by the US actually DROPPED for a couple of years. This can happen today EXCEPT we're talking about not just the US consumer alone but also a whole bunch of pacific rim and developing nations who are now seeking the oil too.
It will happen even there if we give it time.
Be patient. And try to minimise your hit from the speculators in the short term by not buying oil now. A downturn in the economy as some have predicted will completely undo the speculators.
But it will never be like it was. Read The Long Emergency by James Howard Kunstler and the sister book World Made by Hand You'll be shocked by how much our world will change in the next 20 years.
Best,
Joe
I think it's driven by the diesel fuel market. Since the change to low sulfer diesel in October 2007, the energy companies seem to be pricing diesel at a "cost per mile" parity basis with gasoline. Bringing this pricing back to the heating oil consumer too puts a whole lot more money in someone else's pocket - which is what they want.
T Rowe Price New Era Fund (PRNEX) is made up primarily of oil and energy development companies. I invested early in 2007 and have basically seen my money double in the last year and a half. It's one of the few funds that haven't lost money in the recent downturn of the stockmarket. Guess you could say I have been a beneficiary in the gouging by the oil companies.
The home heat solution? Go somewhere else, do something else. That something may not be pretty, or comfortable, or easy, but it's possible.
During the last significant price run ups of the late 1970s, the oil companies and OPEC got a little scared when the American consumer suddenly started seeking out the "alternatives." For the first time in the history of burning oil, the use of oil by the US actually DROPPED for a couple of years. This can happen today EXCEPT we're talking about not just the US consumer alone but also a whole bunch of pacific rim and developing nations who are now seeking the oil too.
It will happen even there if we give it time.
Be patient. And try to minimise your hit from the speculators in the short term by not buying oil now. A downturn in the economy as some have predicted will completely undo the speculators.
But it will never be like it was. Read The Long Emergency by James Howard Kunstler and the sister book World Made by Hand You'll be shocked by how much our world will change in the next 20 years.
Best,
Joe
Remember how our forebears had those "quaint" four-poster beds with draperies all around? 'Tweren't just for privacy, folks! The area inside the bed was easier for your body heat to warm up, instead of trying to warm up the entire room.
Nowadays we also have those "space emergency blankets" made of mylar. I would look into attaching them to the inside of the draperies, especially overhead -- we did this a couple of weeks ago when we went camping in CT. Well, we actually hung an SEB in the top of our tent; we really do not go camping with a 4-poster!
And remember "And mama in her kerchief, and I in my cap / Had just settled down for a long Winter's nap"? Covering the head does help keep the body warmer.
BTW, I put an SEB over the windows in the summer -- when the A/C is in and running -- to reflect the heat back out. I suppose they could be put over the windows in the winter to reflect heat back in, and to stop drafts or convection currents from the windows, too.
Finally, I was at Old Bethpage Village here on LI, and one of the people who worked there said that the houses had low ceilings NOT because people were short, but because a lower ceiling meant less volume to heat.
HTH,
--Rich
Nowadays we also have those "space emergency blankets" made of mylar. I would look into attaching them to the inside of the draperies, especially overhead -- we did this a couple of weeks ago when we went camping in CT. Well, we actually hung an SEB in the top of our tent; we really do not go camping with a 4-poster!
And remember "And mama in her kerchief, and I in my cap / Had just settled down for a long Winter's nap"? Covering the head does help keep the body warmer.
BTW, I put an SEB over the windows in the summer -- when the A/C is in and running -- to reflect the heat back out. I suppose they could be put over the windows in the winter to reflect heat back in, and to stop drafts or convection currents from the windows, too.
Finally, I was at Old Bethpage Village here on LI, and one of the people who worked there said that the houses had low ceilings NOT because people were short, but because a lower ceiling meant less volume to heat.
HTH,
--Rich
Chartreuse
Yellow Solar Sun
We had to order some at work just last week - we had gone completely dry and we were still having nearly winter-like temperatures. It was $4.13 a gallon.
I'm fully expecting that when we have to fill up the tank at home in the fall that we're going to be paying between $5.00 and $6.00 gallon. We're actually lucky - our house is small, and barring any disaster we will be able to come up with the money. However, it is also likely that we will have to either cut our yearly vacation to the Oregon Coast in half, or, if prices are bad enough, eliminate it all together.
I have no idea what the people who don't have any excess in their budgets are going to do.
I'm fully expecting that when we have to fill up the tank at home in the fall that we're going to be paying between $5.00 and $6.00 gallon. We're actually lucky - our house is small, and barring any disaster we will be able to come up with the money. However, it is also likely that we will have to either cut our yearly vacation to the Oregon Coast in half, or, if prices are bad enough, eliminate it all together.
I have no idea what the people who don't have any excess in their budgets are going to do.
Chartreuse
Yellow Solar Sun
I would love to have solar heat - for us personally it's not an option right now because we rent, but if we ever actually are able to afford to buy a home it's one of the first things I'd look at.
I suspect that a lot of homeowners would like to switch to (or at least supplement with) solar panels but I believe the initial investment is still relatively steep, and for a lot of people, while they can come up with a few hundred dollars at a time for oil, coming up with thousands at once is just impossible. And some can't even come up with hundreds - I remember an article posted on this board a few months ago about people in the east having to buy oil every day because they could only come up with enough for a few gallons at a time.
TECH32
Inactive
Fortunately our dishwasher has a built in heater so it doesn't use much hot water. We also use space heaters and they are pretty darned good at what they do. Still we average 4-5 gal a day to heat the house in winter and I dont' see anyway around that.
I spoke to the folks at my heating oil company last week, and they said oil was going to $4.14/gallon on 5/9. I participate in a budget plan with them, and expect to receive the new contract (7/08-6/09) any day. I fully expect the price per gallon for the new period to be over $4.00/gallon, and I go through about 730 gallons a year. My boiler also heats my water so it runs all year.
I am strongly considering closing off my second floor next winter, and replacing some old fashioned windows.
I am strongly considering closing off my second floor next winter, and replacing some old fashioned windows.
Ben Sunday
Has No Life - Lives on TB
$4.05 here yesterday. The driver was talking openly about the hassles at the wholesale level, and thinks that heating oil will run between $6.50 to $7.50 per gallon by January.
Winter will be incredibly dangerous.
Winter will be incredibly dangerous.
Dobbin
Faithful Steed
You're thinking in a 20th century pre-peak oil mode.
The energy you use to heat your dishwasher water comes from ELECTRICITY which may not have seen the price increases that the immediate oil market has seen - but it's coming.
Normally, most utilities go on about a three year cycle for electric rate adjustments with the state PUC. The new rates are usually figured so that the return on investment runs about 11 percent a year averaged out over the three years. The utilities generally have a better idea where fuel prices are going than you and I, and they figure it so that the first year the utility makes money beyond the 11 percent, the second year, they break even at 11 percent return, and the third year they lose money.
Thus, right now you're seeing electric rates that were probably predicated on oil prices of perhaps 60 to 80 dollars a barrel. Shortly, the electric rates will be adjusted, and you'll find yourself paying electric rates a third to half again what you're paying now.
Now there is an advantage to allowing your dishwasher to heat it's own water. There is no "standby loss" for a dishwasher and the water is heated as it is used. Technically it's possible to run a dishwasher on COLD water except dishwashers rinse using the water from the hot tap and don't preheat the rinse.
Meanwhile your own electric (or gas, or oil) hot water heater stays comfortably down in the basement and there is a stand by loss which just about equals your monthly dollar hit in hot water. In essence you're paying for your personal hot water twice. Once for the actual hot water and once again for the convenience to keep it hot and ready and waiting for you.
Of course there are the so called "instananeous" electric and gas hot water heaters. No standby loss. BIG energy demand when in service. Usually problematical with maintaining temperature; or at least consistancy. They frequently have problems with lime build up and are noted for a shorter life than the old fashioned tank heater.
As to electric space heater, these allow you to keep your room "average temperature" somewhat lower than might be comfortable. Perhaps even as low as your house thermostat can go maybe even into the mid 50 degrees. You can then use the electric heater to "spot heat" a comfortable space or room for you to be in. Of course the electricity has it's own price, which is generally a bit more than simply burning the home heating oil. But the key is to use it as spot heating. Heat only the space you intend to be in and turn it off when you're not using it.
Remember the old copper dish heaters? These were so called "radiant heaters" and were particularly adaptable to spot heating. The more modern "quartz heaters" were of this ilk too. However, the oil filled radiator types (they look like a sheet metal steam radiator except you plug them in) are more for heating an entire room (or for putting your wet boots on top to dry out.) Not so good for spot heating.
There is no easy solution to home heating. And it gets harder if you eshew oil.
My dad for a while had a "Riteway" furnace in his house and he would burn 7 cords of wood a year (back in the days when the town forest guy would give you the wood for free) and later burned 2 to 3 tons of coal a winter. Like the others though, once the price of oil moderated, he took out the Riteway and installed a oil fired hot air furnace. I wish he still had the Riteway as it was a pretty dependable heater.
I also see "pellet" stoves and corn stoves in more demand. Already, the manufacturers of pellets and stoves are having problems meeting market demand. A good buy for a pellet stove (or any stove for that matter) can he had on most local Craigslists. Expect to pay up to a grand for a used pellet stove, or nearly two grand for a new one.
If I had it to do now, I would explore the coal stove possibilities. Anthracite coal prices have not changed that much and an anthracite coal stove can be had for as little as a hundred dollars on Craigslist.
This coal stove is available in the Cow Hampshire Craigslist for $150.
Best,
Joe
Wise Owl
Deceased
Ah coal stoves.......dirty, nasty stuff. We used to heat the old farmhouses with coal furnaces in the basement....when those babies smoked, it blackened the whole inside of the house. My Mother would have hysterics cause she has asthma. So Dad switched it over to wood burning. Much better and didn't smoke like the coal did.....cheaper too. We just burned the dead trees on the farm which had a lot of em...
I love the smell of apple wood burning.......remember it well.
Coal is dirty to handle and dirty to burn......wood is much cleaner even with taking out ashes. It will wipe up......or vacumm up. Coal dust is greasy and stains everything! YUK..
I love the smell of apple wood burning.......remember it well.
Coal is dirty to handle and dirty to burn......wood is much cleaner even with taking out ashes. It will wipe up......or vacumm up. Coal dust is greasy and stains everything! YUK..
homepark
Resist
I just replaced the oil fired boiler at my place in Pa. I looked at all the possibilities, heat pumps, propane boiler, geothermal, electric boiler, etc. I ended up putting in another oil fired boiler with the domestic hot water coil. The heat is hydronic baseboard.
The previous one had lasted 30 years. I have a water softener for the hot water (heat and domestic) which I believe extended its life.
Fortunately, the home is only 1000sqft, brick on block construction on a slab. I need to add some more insulation in the attic, but there is some up there.
We used about 500 gallons of oil for heat and hot water this past winter with the old boiler. I expect to see a slight improvement in the oil useage, but nothing dramatic. The final winter delivery a few weeks ago was at $3.79/gal.
I looked at a slightly higher efficiency propane fired condensing boiler, but the lower btu content concerned me. Plus the cost for propane is about the same as oil at the moment.
Anyway, I don't see any easy way out of heating anymore. We would do well to adjust to less.
The previous one had lasted 30 years. I have a water softener for the hot water (heat and domestic) which I believe extended its life.
Fortunately, the home is only 1000sqft, brick on block construction on a slab. I need to add some more insulation in the attic, but there is some up there.
We used about 500 gallons of oil for heat and hot water this past winter with the old boiler. I expect to see a slight improvement in the oil useage, but nothing dramatic. The final winter delivery a few weeks ago was at $3.79/gal.
I looked at a slightly higher efficiency propane fired condensing boiler, but the lower btu content concerned me. Plus the cost for propane is about the same as oil at the moment.
Anyway, I don't see any easy way out of heating anymore. We would do well to adjust to less.
Dobbin
Faithful Steed
The man I used to work with during that late 1970s timeframe had much the same opinion of coal. His memories included carrying hods of coal up to the top floor of a triple decker in New Bedford, MA, and then carrying out hod fulls of ash once a week. He figured about a 4 to one ratio (and this figures since anthracite is about 20 percent ash)
However, my dad's experience with the coal wasn't so unpleasant. Coal in the 1970s was somehow "treated" to reduce fines and sprayed, perhaps with oil, to keep the dust down. Still plenty of ash to be removed, but the tray on the Riteway at least minimised the shoveling necessary; you simply removed the tray and dumped it into a 30 gallon metal trash container. I assume Dad moved it to the curb with the rest of the trash (I was living elsewhere by that time.)
Once in a great while on an unseasonably warm day Dad would have a problem with the stove more a matter of "turn down" ratio. The Riteway was an auto-thermostat stove and below certain airflow, the fire would go out and Dad would have to dig out some kindling and a bit of firewood to restart the coal fire. Twice a day he would feed the fire and one of these times would break up any "clinkers" that formed. There weren't too many which was maybe an attest to the quality of the coal then.
We never had an experience like Darin McGavin on A Christmas Story. "Dad burned blankey-blank ofmeash phompin...etc. etc."
But perhaps the coal stove pictured above is being sold because it smokes? Who can say - certainly not the seller. Caviet Emptor.
Best,
Joe
TECH32
Inactive
Joe,
Our furnace heats the hot water on demand, so we don't have any "standby" water losing heat. The upside is in the winter we have relatively cheap hot water (since the furnace is already running to heat the house). The downside is in the summer everytime we use hot water it forces the furnace to kick in.
Our furnace heats the hot water on demand, so we don't have any "standby" water losing heat. The upside is in the winter we have relatively cheap hot water (since the furnace is already running to heat the house). The downside is in the summer everytime we use hot water it forces the furnace to kick in.
momof23goats
Deceased
thank GOD, for my wood furance. and wood cookstove.
Dobbin
Faithful Steed
Actually, the system you have STILL has the standby loss. It's just minimised during the winter when your heating needs are paramount. (Actually, standby loss during the winter is called - HEATING THE HOUSE... or celler, actually.) During the summer, the stand by loss of your system is likely GREATER than a single encapsulated insulated water heater. A good portion of this loss is the airflow through the furnace firebox when the oil burner is not burning - which in summer can be a majority amount of the time.
But despite the shortcomings, these type of systems make financial sense over a separate electric, oil or gas hot water heater on top of it. And, the electric company certainly gets a premium for their version of energy simply because it's so convenient and the equipment to use it is relatively cheap in comparison with a house furnace with auxilary water coils.
The instananeous heaters I've referred to include the Paloma Pack (natural or LP gas), the Aqua Star (gas, LP or electric,) Rinnai (oil or gas), or Monitor (kero, oil or gas.) Also the small single faucet electric water heaters sold by a number of makers and noted for large electric service cables (frequently 20 or 30 amp service at 220 volts) and a life which tends to the short and spectacular. (When they fail they can do so in a blaze of steam and molten brass.) These units all burn fuel or electric ONLY when water is passing through them and are cold to the touch when not in use.
At one point I did some numbers comparing the costs using conventional water heaters of heating water by electric, oil, LP gas (natural gas is not available in this area) I more or less came to the conclusion that all are pretty much at par when all sources and all costs are considered. Electric heaters are cheap but the energy to heat water is expensive. Oil fuel at that time was relatively cheap, but the heater to use the oil was 5x the cost of an electric water heater. LP Gas energy cost wise was less expensive than electric, but more expensive than oil, and the heater cost was more or less in-between the other two as well.
Now with oil so expensive, and my having read The Long Emergency I would not recommend any of these options if a solar system could be installed in any way shape or form. In fact, if you're building a house today and plan any solar unit in the future, for the interim install an electric water heater, either instantaneous or the old tank style. While the electric energy is expensive and likely to be more so in the future, the unit to heat the water is cheap. And, the electric rates will always be at least 18 months behind the actual energy costs for reasons I mentioned above. Also, the majority of electricity generated in this country is done though fuels OTHER than oil, with coal being paramount and nuclear being a number two. While the costs of these energy sources will probably increase also, it will not be as fast as with oil. This will give you time to get a solar system in place with the electric as an infrequently used back-up - and a back-up that needs little or no maintenance.
We're certainly in for a challenge in the years to come. Not to brag but I knew there was a reason I never left the woodburning clan. 12 cords out back of the barn say I'm all set with heat for the next 3 winters, anyway. There is some question about that 4th year though...
Best regards,
Joe
BornFree
Came This Far
I agree. I don't believe oil was speculated on like this back in the 70's....As far as I know. I was really young. But the price increase was nothing like the one we have today it seems. But hey- those with the money to speculate are getting even richer off from our pockets. And all they have to do is sit at computer and push buttons to do it.