Can Cars Run on Water?

Garryowen

Deceased
I've never tried it, but I think this is the concept of the fuel cell, and I have heard that it works. Before plunking down the money, I'd like to see some evidence that this will work in my car. If someone is doing this, it would be great to hear from them.

regards,

Garryowen
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
I have seen this about on the internet. Some sites you will find some stories you may find hard to believe! Like how our government kept them from doing it and the biggest mistake they made is trying to patent it, If it were not for that they would have gotten a lot further with it to the point were government could no longer suppress it.
 

Desertrat

Inactive
You do a little research via Google, and you'll most likely find that a week's worth of electrolysis via your car's battery will generate enough hydrogen to run your car for, oh, maybe ten seconds.

I'm being optimistic...

TANSTAAFL.

There ain't no 100 mpg carboomerators, either.

If you like to play with numbers, I vaguely recall there are about 19,000 BTU per pound of gasoline. You can find the conversions and calculate the BTUs per minute to produce one horsepower. You can figure the horsepower needed to run somewhere near the speed limit. (Probably between 30 and 50, depending on the cross-section, streamlining, and tire size.) Gasoline weighs about six pounds per gallon. Have fun...

'Rat
 

Ta-wo-di

Veteran Member
I don't know about this process, but many years ago I worked with a gentleman that was in WWII, and he said they used to run jeeps, etc with water injectors. The problem was rust. I do know that prior to fuel injection, I used to flip the air cleaner cover over to expose the filter and during rainy weather, my vehicles would run better and the mileage was better.

Ta
 

dissimulo

Membership Revoked
Well, the sales babe in the short skirt has me sold.

(Except for the fact that your car gets the energy for the battery by burning gasoline and they propose to create hydrogen by getting energy from the battery.)

Water is not a fuel. You have to undo the bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen to turn it into fuels. You can then burn the hydrogen and oxygen and produce water again. But, you'll never get even as much energy as you had to expend to separate the H and the O in the first place.
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
I'm going to give a web address below. This is pre Alex Jones by many years the man Carl Cella is dead and how long I don't know. I have been wanting to try this on a smaller scale to see if I could make it work, my father in-law an electrical engineer and knows a little about working cars and had his doubts if it would work or not and would require at lest a 65 or 100 Amp alternator to keep it going.:shr:
WWW.cyberspaceorbit.com/fuelcell.html
WWW.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
(Except for the fact that your car gets the energy for the battery by burning gasoline and they propose to create hydrogen by getting energy from the battery.)


Not quite. The battery is neccesary to start the vehicle, after that the alternator takes over and the battery is kept charged as well as the car being run. Theoretically once the battery starts the process of hydrogen breakdiwn or whatever either the alt will take over or the Alt will maintain the battery.

Try disconnecting your alt and taking a drive some night and see what happens when you run on the battery only. BTDT and got a ticket 1/4 block from my house when the car finally stopped.
 

dissimulo

Membership Revoked
Not quite. The battery is neccesary to start the vehicle, after that the alternator takes over and the battery is kept charged as well as the car being run. Theoretically once the battery starts the process of hydrogen breakdiwn or whatever either the alt will take over or the Alt will maintain the battery.

Try disconnecting your alt and taking a drive some night and see what happens when you run on the battery only. BTDT and got a ticket 1/4 block from my house when the car finally stopped.

Right - but the energy that goes into the battery ultimately comes from burning gasoline. If you took the gasoline out of the equation, you would quickly run the battery dry and not be able to produce any more hydrogen. Which would pretty much mirror your experience running without an alternator. ;)
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Hydrogen will burn in the presence of oxygen, the result is pure water. Water is hydrogen and oxygen already together, but will not burn because it is already "burnt". You can split water back into separate oxygen and hydrogen, but it takes energy, this is done through electrolysis.

Water by itself, induced into an engine, will cool the incoming air, allowing denser air and the ability to use more fuel per cycle. Water will not burn in an engine, just help the combustion process. Hydrogen WILL burn in an engine, but it takes a good amount to keep a car's engine running. Add to this problem, the fact that electrolysis is nowhere near 100% efficient, and you are looking at a LOT of electricity needed to keep a car running. Just running down the road at 55 miles per hour requires 12-17 horsepower of energy to the wheels. Now if we pretend that everything was running at 100% efficiency, then that 12-17 HP would need from 8,948.28 to 12,676.73 Watts (1HP=745.69 Watts). With a 12.8 volt system (like an alternator and batteries), you are looking at needing a constant supply between 699.08 and 990.36 Amps of current. That is the total output of 10 to 16 average car alternators running full tilt. And that 12-17 horsepower was with no other loads (like the 10-16 extra alternators...).

Yes, you could store that hydrogen in a tank, made with a stationary generation system, but you are still looking at thousands of watts needed to get things just running. Once you look at the real needs of the engine, like accelerating and hills, then the power requirements go into the tens and even hundreds of thousands of watts on a current basis. If you want to run your car for an hour, you would need (XX Horsepower) * (745.69 Watts) / (System efficiency) = WattHours needed.

_____

A much easier way to look at the use of hydrogen:

Hydrogen is an energy storage medium, not a fuel. It must be created to be used.

Loup
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
I would bring to every one's attention that if you are working a fuel injection motor the stuff can had to convert to LP gas! You will need it if you want to convert over to burn water.:ld:
 

zeda1

Senior Member
Water in a fine mist/vapor improves combustion. I forget the numbers, but a gasoline piston engine is a very inefficent way of making power, and any improvement in the combustion process could lead to more power with less gas consumption possibly....I don't know, when I wqs 27, I knew everything, now at 63, I'm not sure whats possible.....
 

PHD

Veteran Member
Hydrogen fuel cells are not that efficient yet.

Even though buying this from a bimbo in a short skirt and stilettos is tempting.

There may be a time that it begins to be interesting, but not yet.
 

Watchingbear

Senior Member
I suppose it won't change anyone's mind if they want to believe, but I am a P.E., chemical engineering, and this looks like total B.S. Don't send them money.
 

tnhillbilly

Senior Member
Loup or anyone else with some knowledge about this type of stuff. I have some questions please. 1. You can use electrolysis to seperate hydrogen and oxygen. Instead of using water could you use H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide)? 2.Then could you use both the H2 and the O2 to add to the gas and air mixture to make a hotter cleaner burn in the engine? Which might help fuel mileage. If I understand it H2O2 is equal parts H2 and O2 then purified warer is added to get the different percentages,3%,10%,35%,etc. All of this if electrolysis would seperate them could be used to help fuel mileage it seems. Just thinking out loud. tnhillbilly
 

AusieGrandad

Inactive
Get Real

You know the rules Guys.

"If it sounds too good to be true , it probably is."

But you can always pay a few bucks to find out, you were wrong.

AG
 

Christian for Israel

Knight of Jerusalem
as loup said, hydrogen is an energy STORAGE medium...like a battery. if, say, you were to use solar cells to seperate the water into hydrogen and oxygen you could then store them in pressure tanks and transfer them to your car to use as fuel. of course you'd need special tanks in the car as well, but it WOULD work. basically you'd be running your car on stored solar power.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Loup or anyone else with some knowledge about this type of stuff. I have some questions please. 1. You can use electrolysis to seperate hydrogen and oxygen. Instead of using water could you use H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide)? 2.Then could you use both the H2 and the O2 to add to the gas and air mixture to make a hotter cleaner burn in the engine? Which might help fuel mileage. If I understand it H2O2 is equal parts H2 and O2 then purified warer is added to get the different percentages,3%,10%,35%,etc. All of this if electrolysis would seperate them could be used to help fuel mileage it seems. Just thinking out loud. tnhillbilly

Pure H2O2 is 50%H2 and 50%O2, but is so highly oxidizing that it will damage MOST metals that it comes in contact with. It makes bleach look like water. Hair stylists use around 30-35% H2O2 and there are some very harsh precautions on the stuff. The "medicinal" variety is around 3% H2O2, and 97% "purified" water.

With H2O2, you will get a slightly more oxygen rich mixture (keep in mind that the stock "medicinal" H2O2 is only ~3% H2O2). Either way, you could not get enough hydroxyl (or hydroxyl+the extra O2) generated on the fly, to get the engine running stoich without adding in extra fuel (gasoline) and air. If you tried to block off the incoming air and tried to get it to "suck" the hydroxyl out under vacuum, then the engine would pull a vacuum faster than the generator could generate it.

As far as dumping in straight O2 into an engine, I would NOT suggest it, as it will cause engine damage due to several reasons, including localized hot spots. There is a real good reason that they use NO2 instead of straight O2. I have seen the damage that straight O2 can cause (I had to get a valve body rebuilt after trying it). Keep in mind that anything becomes fuel in the presence of pure O2, whether that be metal, silicon, glass, BBQ grills (don't ask), stainless steel, and even humans and animals. An engine that is fed pure O2, enough to have it balance stoich with the metal parts of the engine can and will ignite the engine. The Nitrogen in NO2 makes sure that "balance" never comes close. And even with NO2, the end user needs to make sure that pressures and temperatures don't get too far out of hand, especially with turbos in use (this is the main reason for the Methanol injection, to quench and add more fuel to balance the O2 of the NO2).

Loup

(Notice the methanol pump in the upper left hand corner to keep the engine from predetonating due to the "one size too large" turbo at the bottom center. But the boost got him to 9.60 even with a damaged cylinder last time...)
 

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atlan

Membership Revoked
Where are the entrepreneurs opening up "water conversion centers"? If it worked, people would be elbowing each other in gut to get a shop set up.
 

Desertrat

Inactive
Water injection in aircraft engines was for cooling, not for more power from the water. At wide-open throttle, particularly with supercharging, something is needed to control combustion temperatures, and water was what was used. The complexity of the system was worth it; it beat the heck out of having holes in pistons.

You don't cruise around town at wide-open throttle...

The IC engine puts out max power with an air-fuel ratio of about 15 pounds of air per pound of fuel. You get down to 14 or 13 and first you get black smoke from the exhaust pipe and then at some point it's too rich to burn. Nitrous oxide injection allows complete combustion of a rich mixture. Like a buddy of mine commented, "When you hit the nitrous button, you can watch the gas gauge head toward empty." Nitrous is not an economy tool. :D
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
If anybody wants to play with a hydroxy generator, you can make one fairly easy with two panels of aluminum window screen (36"X36" works good) and four sections of fiber glass window screen (40"X40", slightly larger than the Aluminum ones gives extra protection). Place one of the aluminum window screens on a table, then place one of the fiberglass ones directly on top of that one. Next place a second fiberglass screen on top of the first one, offset by about two inches to the right, but still flush on the top and bottom. Now place the remaining aluminum one directly on top of the offset fiberglass one. Finish up by placing the fourth fiberglass one directly on top of the aluminum one you just laid down, and the last fiberglass one shifted back to the left to cover the first aluminum panel again. So it looks like this from the front side or the back side:

Code:
____________________          <-Aluminum #1
____________________          <-Fiberglass #1
     ____________________     <-Fiberglass #2
     ____________________     <-Aluminum #2
     ____________________     <-Fiberglass #3
____________________          <-Fiberglass #4

Now roll up the stack from the front edge, so that the two ends will have one aluminum screen sticking out. Slip a few O-rings over the "scroll" and then use a set of alligator clips and connect one wire to one end (Aluminum screen 1), and another alligator clip to the other one (Aluminum screen 2).

Now, if you have a DMM or continuity tester, check the wires to see that you have an open circuit. If it shows a short, start over, since there is a part of one screen touching the other. The two screens have to be separated and not touching each other (shorting out). Once you have that done, find/make a PVC pipe that is capped at one end, and can have a cap screwed on to the other. Drill two small holes in the screw in cap. Slide the "scroll" into the tube with the wires into the tube, and run both wires through one of the holes in the cap and seal with either silicone RTV sealant or hot glue. Now use either the silicone RTV sealant of the hot glue to attach a small hose (1/4" works fine) to the other hole. Now, attach a basketball inflater "needle" to the other end of that tube. Open the screw top back up, and the unit is ready to be filled.

One of the easiest electrolyte mixes is a 95% water (distilled works best) mixed with 5% battery acid (from an old car battery). REMEMBER, ALWAYS ADD THE ACID TO THE WATER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!.

Now screw on the cap, and fill a bucket most of the way up with regular tap water. Now get a clamp to hold the basketball inflater needle so that the tip is no more than 1/4" above the water, and so that the rest of the needle and at least a few inches of hose remains underwater. The reason for this "odd" step is that hydroxy is a stoich mix by itself, when it is ignited, it will burn (recombine, oxidize) and form water and it does NOT need an external source of O2 to do this. So, if the ignition (flame) gets a chance to go back down the tube and into your hydroxyl generator, IT WILL (and it will set off the larger amount in the chamber above the screen wire "scroll") Since the amount of hydroxyl gas generated by the system is not under pressure (don't add a valve to try to get it to build up pressure or to store it, then things get dangerous), and it is not that large of an amount, it will not explode the PVC, but rather just make a noise inside the pipe (implosion) and the pipe will jump up, scaring the carp out of you. Hydroxyl will ignite at around 180 degrees Fahrenheit. The reason for keeping the metal basketball inflater mostly under water is to keep the tip of the inflater cooler than 180 degrees and preventing the "blowback" of the flame back down the hose and into the chamber.

Now, the unit is ready to hook to power and test out. Attach the two wires to a 12V battery through a 4 amp fuse (or an automobile headlight) (either one in series with the tube and the battery) as a ballast and current limiter. That sized screen with a 5% solution of H2SO4 will draw about 2.1 amps, which equates to about 27 watts of power. If you use the headlight, it should glow at about half brightness, which shows you that the screens aren't shorted, but are working. After a 20-30 seconds, you should hear faint bubbling in the tube. Give it another 3 or 4 minutes to flush out all of the normal air that was in there when you were filling the tube with electrolyte and try (with a match or lighter) to light the hydroxyl that is escaping form the tip of the needle above the water in the bucket. depending on the size of the pipe, and how much extra "air" was in there, it might light, or need another few minutes. Either way, it should be enough escaping to light the end after 10 minutes. Note: The flame is nearly invisible, since what is burning is the pure hydrogen. There is a slight blue tint, but the majority of the flame's output is UV (UltraViolet), so it is best to do this outside at dusk, or later so that you can see the flame. You should be able to get a good two or three inch flame going to experiment with.

Now comes the fun part. If you have one of the non-contact PIR thermometers, check the temperature of the flame. It should read below 300 as long as it is in "free air" and not touching anything. Now take a piece of steel and then a piece of aluminum (one at a time) and hold it so that the tip of the flame is touching the bottom of the plates. That <300 degree flame will easily get the steel plate to above 700, and the aluminum plate close to 1000 (or more, depending on how much hydroxyl it is producing). You will also notice that water droplets are forming on the bottom of the plate, as the "burnt" hydroxyl (water vapor) condenses on the colder plate.

Hydroxyl is very interesting stuff to play with. It has very odd properties, and as long as it is not under pressure as a gas, it will always implode and not explode (converting back to the more dense water that it came from). It has a free air ignition point of around 180 degrees and a combustion point not to much higher than that, but will heat other items many times those temperatures. It has the ability to "weld" very odd combinations of materials together, including a lot of dissimilar metals, and even some metals to glass. It will burn in a vacuum, as well as under water if the source of hydroxyl can create large amounts fast enough to keep the stream of gas big enough so that the water does not cool it past the 180 degree ignition temp (Hydroxyl welders use this trick).

More on the odd info and uses like welding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_gas
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/335674/water_fueled_torch/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFcxm6Ygd8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywx92oj4k6k <---Notice on this one, he has 6 cells at one time needed to generate just the hydroxyl needed to just get the torch going, and that it is taking 72 amps! Now, think about how much more a CAR would need to just idle...

Loup
 

tnhillbilly

Senior Member
Loup, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. But I've got more questions. Since H2O2 was used as a torpedo and rocket propellant in WW2, and doesen't H2O2 decompose quickly when coming in contact with organics releasing heat, steam energy? Anyway I was wondering if you could inject into the cylinders on an engine, an organic (gas, oil, biofuel, etc) and H2O2 from another injector at the same time. And just let nature take it's course. No spark might be needed just an anode to trigger the chemical reaction. Of course the next cylinder is timed differently to keep the rotation of the crank going. Any chance of something like this working? Maybe for a stationary motor to turn a pump or generator? Just thinking out loud again? Thanks for listening. tnhillbilly
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Loup, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. But I've got more questions. Since H2O2 was used as a torpedo and rocket propellant in WW2, and doesen't H2O2 decompose quickly when coming in contact with organics releasing heat, steam energy? Anyway I was wondering if you could inject into the cylinders on an engine, an organic (gas, oil, biofuel, etc) and H2O2 from another injector at the same time. And just let nature take it's course. No spark might be needed just an anode to trigger the chemical reaction. Of course the next cylinder is timed differently to keep the rotation of the crank going. Any chance of something like this working? Maybe for a stationary motor to turn a pump or generator? Just thinking out loud again? Thanks for listening. tnhillbilly

Yes, STRONG H2O2 (above 60%) was/is used as the O2 source in both of those two items, with the fuel being alcohol in the torpedos and either hydrazine, Liquid H2, or even kerosene. And yes, H2O2 will rapidly react with organics, along with a LOT of other things (steel for example). The problem with trying to inject it into an engine and have it self detonate is one of both strength of H2O2 needed (wants to damage the engine), as well as timing of the detonation (a few really pre-TDC detonations (pre-det) really takes it's toll on the engine parts).

Adding straight O2 into a very well tuned engine will not increase your "mileage" much at all, since the mixture is close to perfect stoich as it is. The only way to get it to add more HP, is to adjust the F/A ratio so that it is running richer than stoich. Adding NO2 will, because it is adding a fuel in with the O2, but at the demise of your engine. But the question is, "which is cheaper, getting the extra boost from NO2, or adding in more gasoline and regular air?" Most of the time it will still be the gasoline method. The same is true with adding hydroxyl, it will increase the amount of energy that is going into the engine, but the same question must be answered, "At what cost does this 'gain', come?" If it takes 100 some amps at 14.6 volts, to gain an extra horsepower or two, then you are just about breaking even as that two horsepower is "worth" around 1500 watts and you are using 1,460 watts to get it, as well as weighing your vehicle down with at least a few pounds of equipment and adding the strain of another alternator or two.

Could hydroxyl or electrolysis become a good alternative for gasoline? Yes, but the energy source used to make it needs to be cheaper than what it is trying to replace per joule of energy created/used. So far the only way that happens is when the source of the original energy is solar or other RE (like Geothermal). The problem is that once oil starts to really head higher (like past $7/gallon), we will see the price of electricity start heading the same way (as more and more people use it, AND the prices of the oil based consumables that the electric companies use to create that electricity climbs higher). The same will be true for solar and RE equipment prices, as more and more people buy and the consumables get more and more expensive. (This is going to get nasty for the people that are not prepared). So, if you have your solar or RE NOW, then hydroxyl may be an answer for you in the near future. But it still is not going to be the "answer" for everything as it is still an energy storage medium more than an energy itself. And with the root efficiencies of electrolysis hovering around 30%-40%, I can thing of plenty of other storage mediums that I would use before hydroxyl.

Honestly, cooking and heating are the only two things that I can see hydroxyl doing as a financially viable approach, and those are only because of hydroxyl's "odd" flame properties.

Loup
 

tnhillbilly

Senior Member
Ok thanks Loup for answering all my questions. It's a shame that the world can't find a way to get the H2 and the O2 seperated by some kind of chemical reaction without having to introduce some kind of energy into it. tnhillbilly
 

Technomancer

Inactive
I expect that you save even more money if you can resell the to other people,
im sure most those places look for distributers or need pyramid investors etc..

I am not sure of the source of the disconnect between macro and micro for most people? Is it because we dont normally deal with the micro, or is this an education thing (you just havent had reason to learn or think about it?).
But it seems to me that for those who have trouble imagining how much energy water can hold without separating into hydrogen and oxygen, think about how hot a house fire can get, or any other large fire, then remember we put water on it to absorb the heat and slow the reactions, and to starve it from oxygen.

If it was easy to crack water, spraying water on a large fire would just make it burn faster and hotter.

Energy is plentiful on earth, just not easy to store. Gasoline, plants, coal, etc are just stored concentrated energy from the sun, and the earths geological processes.

Hydrocarbons seem to be a very easy and at one time plentiful source of concentrated stored energy, but surely we can find other ways to store the energy we can get from the sun, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric etc.

Were it easy to store and transport, we could get our power from even farther away.
rubber band cars sound good?
 
If folks are really serious about alternatives to gasoline and diesel you might want to talk to these folks: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas/

Wood gasification IS a proven alternative and DOES work. Like everything else though, you trade cost for convenience - wood is very cheap, but very inconvenient. I suspect that it's less of a pain than the water-to-fuel that refuses to die :)
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
If folks are really serious about alternatives to gasoline and diesel you might want to talk to these folks: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas/

Wood gasification IS a proven alternative and DOES work. Like everything else though, you trade cost for convenience - wood is very cheap, but very inconvenient. I suspect that it's less of a pain than the water-to-fuel that refuses to die :)

Yep. I know a person that was getting 24 Miles Per Pound of wood back in the early 1990s. Relatively simple setup, and easy to get materials so that many people could do it.

Loup
 

zoose

Inactive
This energy out of water is just plain HogWash.

Art Bell has asked these people for a working device and he will pay $$$ for it.

They just want to sell the book, the CD et al but will not provide a working device (contraption)

We have some Knucklehead in Pahrump that has a sign on his car, ''Run your your car on water'.

He's filling up at the Shell station every day.

Hog Wash.
 
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