Coup In Russia? Ukrainian Civil War? Global War?

Spirit Of Truth

Spirit Of Truth

Inactive
What the heck is going on with Russia?

There are strong indications a grizzly Russian bear is about to awaken and maul the U.S.

The stage is being set for violent political struggles in both Moscow and Kiev that will seemingly pit pro-Western forces against pro-Russian forces. However, don't be fooled....what is being witnessed is concocted and choreographed by Russia's intelligence services as part of an underlying plan to create a pretext for Russia to destroy the U.S. and dominate the world.

The developments below are all alarming and suggest the potential for all-out war between Russia and America is not far away. Clearly, a military crisis in the Middle East involving a war between the U.S./Israel and Iran/Syria is being stirred as part of the gameplan.


1. The Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky has told the Guardian he is plotting the violent overthrow of President Putin from his base in Britain after forging close contacts with members of Russia's ruling elite.

See - http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2056321,00.html

2. Russia's parliament on Friday alleged the United States was helping train radical political groups which threatened the country's stability in the run-up to key parliamentary and presidential elections. The allegations appeared to be directed at a coalition of fierce Kremlin critics, called "Other Russia," which is planning to defy an official ban by holding protest rallies in Moscow and St Petersburg this weekend.

See - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070413/pl_nm/russia_usa_rights_dc

3. Ukrainian President Yushchenko met with the Security Council on April 5 and declared a state of emergency. The declaration was taken as a sign that Yushchenko could attempt to control the country according to his own initiative. In the event of a civil confrontation, the Ministry of Interior Affairs will most likely be under the control of socialists and Yanukovych supporters. But the National Security Council and the Ministry of Defense will most likely align with the president, especially since Defense Minister Anatoli Gritsenko has announced that he would strictly follow the president’s orders. Unlike during the civil war of 2004, the military will not be neutral this time and opposing views will be declared. This could lead to a clash within the military. All things considered, a crisis today will be far more dangerous and threatening than the 2004 Orange Revolution.

See - http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107792

4. Deployment of U.S. missile-defense bases in Poland and the Czech Republic is an attempt by the U.S. to control Europe, the former Soviet president said Thursday. "It is all about influence and domination in Europe," Mikhail Gorbachev said. "I believe it is wrong that America did not even bother to consult its NATO allies." Asked how Russia could respond to these plans, he only said: "Time will show."

See - http://en.rian.ru/world/20070412/63534265.html
 
Perramas

Perramas

Inactive
There is no way Russia could beat the USA in a fight. No country in the world can stand up to the USA armed forces and survive on the battlefield. If it comes to nukes Russia as well as the USA will be destroyed.
 
Spirit Of Truth

Spirit Of Truth

Inactive
Perramas said:
There is no way Russia could beat the USA in a fight. No country in the world can stand up to the USA armed forces and survive on the battlefield. If it comes to nukes Russia as well as the USA will be destroyed.
Click to expand...

"There is profound error and harm in the disoriented claims of bourgeois ideologues that there will be no victor in a thermonuclear war. " -A.S. Milovidov, Russian Military Theorist

“War to the hilt between communism and capitalism is inevitable. Today, of course, we are not strong enough to attack. Our time will come in thirty to forty years. To win, we shall need the element of surprise. The bourgeoisie ... will have to be put to sleep. So we shall begin by launching the most spectacular peace movement on record. There will be electrifying overtures and unheard of concessions. The capitalist countries, stupid and decadent, will rejoice to cooperate in their own destruction. They will leap at another chance to be friends. As soon as their guard is down, we will smash them with our clenched fist.”—Dimitri Manuilski of the Lenin School for Political Warfare

"The principle of the employment of nuclear weapons in combination with other means of destruction follows from the fact that it is impossible to destroy all varied objectives on the battlefield with nuclear weapons alone. It is believed that nuclear weapons, as the main means of destruction, will be employed only for the destruction of the most important objectives; all other targets are neutralized and destroyed by the artillery, aviation, and the fire of tanks and other weapons. " -Colonel A.A. Sidorenko, Soviet Strategist

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when we are far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." -Sun Tzu
 
D

Dean Miller

Archaic Member
SoT said:
The stage is being set for violent political struggles in both Moscow and Kiev that will seemingly pit pro-Western forces against pro-Russian forces. However, don't be fooled....what is being witnessed is concocted and choreographed by Russia's intelligence services as part of an underlying plan to create a pretext for Russia to destroy the U.S. and dominate the world.

...

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when we are far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." -Sun Tzu
Click to expand...

Sun Tzu and Machiavelli wrote during a time when there were no world leaders. They were correct in their strategies for their times, and continue to be correct for current tiny fiefdoms. But for the past 200 years the conficts have been orchestrated more and more globally -- especially since about 1890. All of the wars have been pre-planned, and then a pretext is invented to bring about the war ("remember the Maine," "remember Pearl Harbor," remember Tonkin Gulf," "remember 9-11").

It all has to do with money and control over the common people by the elite (however you want to define the elite).
 
oyster_777

oyster_777

Veteran Member
Perramas said:
There is no way Russia could beat the USA in a fight. No country in the world can stand up to the USA armed forces and survive on the battlefield. If it comes to nukes Russia as well as the USA will be destroyed.
Click to expand...

:whistle:

Submarine attack off both East and West coast USA. War started and finished in less than 1 hour. No one will telegraph a nuclear attack. It will be over with beofre anyone knows what happened.
 
D

DuckandCover

Proud Sheeple
Perramas said:
Show me proof that a full all out nuclear war can be fought and won.
Click to expand...


Well, the US went "all out" in WWII when we nuked Japan, and we wound up winning that war.

Of course, "all out" today means a heck of alot more than it did when we only had two tiny nukes back then. ;)
 
TheSearcher

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Perramas said:
Show me proof that a full all out nuclear war can be fought and won.
Click to expand...

Show proof it can't.

Since Russia has always assumed that nuclear wars can be won, you have to evaluate the situation on what their historical actions and vows have been, and their current actions and level of preparedness.

Even IF nuc wars may render the planet a cinder, that has no bearing on Russia's plans.
 
R

Rams82

Inactive
The only way Russia would even think of launching a nuclear attack on the United States was if they took away our ability to retaliate first. Think computer virus. I don't know how possible it would be for them to do it, but I have always worried about over-reliance on computers and such.
 
J

janecj333

Membership Revoked
From the same Guardian, UK article...

Quote: " (Berzovsky) told a Moscow radio station last year that he wanted to see Mr Putin overthrown by force, "

It's been a year?? And he's not suffered any assassination attempts?

"Mr Berezovsky, 61, a former mathematician, turned to business during the Yeltsin years and made his fortune by capturing state assets at knockdown prices,"

"Mr Berezovsky changed his name to Platon Elenin, Platon being the name of a character in a Russian film based loosely upon his life."

Sounds like a loon to me and, if not, at least part of the propaganda machine. If Berezovsky aka Elenin purports loudly to be plotting Putin's overthrow, then won't the real forces of dissent just sit back and wait for it to be done? And then it never happens. An excellent scheme, imo.
 
K

Kadee

Inactive
It would appear the chess pieces have been moved in place for Putin to call off the elections and assume the mantle of dictator. Looks to be right on schedule. All in the name of preserving mother Russia.

Here we go again. Same players, same song. Just another verse. This might not be the worst thing to happen, if you think about it. A rebalancing of power, perhaps? We were better off during the cold war. MAD did work. . . . .

Now if, Putin and the Chicoms can put some pressure on their proxies, the Islamofacists, the world has a chance to survive.
 
H

HangingDog

Veteran Member
Spirit Of Truth said:
What the heck is going on with Russia?

There are strong indications a grizzly Russian bear is about to awaken and maul the U.S.

The stage is being set for violent political struggles in both Moscow and Kiev that will seemingly pit pro-Western forces against pro-Russian forces. However, don't be fooled....what is being witnessed is concocted and choreographed by Russia's intelligence services as part of an underlying plan to create a pretext for Russia to destroy the U.S. and dominate the world.

The developments below are all alarming and suggest the potential for all-out war between Russia and America is not far away. Clearly, a military crisis in the Middle East involving a war between the U.S./Israel and Iran/Syria is being stirred as part of the gameplan.


1. The Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky has told the Guardian he is plotting the violent overthrow of President Putin from his base in Britain after forging close contacts with members of Russia's ruling elite.

See - http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2056321,00.html

2. Russia's parliament on Friday alleged the United States was helping train radical political groups which threatened the country's stability in the run-up to key parliamentary and presidential elections. The allegations appeared to be directed at a coalition of fierce Kremlin critics, called "Other Russia," which is planning to defy an official ban by holding protest rallies in Moscow and St Petersburg this weekend.

See - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070413/pl_nm/russia_usa_rights_dc

3. Ukrainian President Yushchenko met with the Security Council on April 5 and declared a state of emergency. The declaration was taken as a sign that Yushchenko could attempt to control the country according to his own initiative. In the event of a civil confrontation, the Ministry of Interior Affairs will most likely be under the control of socialists and Yanukovych supporters. But the National Security Council and the Ministry of Defense will most likely align with the president, especially since Defense Minister Anatoli Gritsenko has announced that he would strictly follow the president’s orders. Unlike during the civil war of 2004, the military will not be neutral this time and opposing views will be declared. This could lead to a clash within the military. All things considered, a crisis today will be far more dangerous and threatening than the 2004 Orange Revolution.

See - http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107792

4. Deployment of U.S. missile-defense bases in Poland and the Czech Republic is an attempt by the U.S. to control Europe, the former Soviet president said Thursday. "It is all about influence and domination in Europe," Mikhail Gorbachev said. "I believe it is wrong that America did not even bother to consult its NATO allies." Asked how Russia could respond to these plans, he only said: "Time will show."

See - http://en.rian.ru/world/20070412/63534265.html
Click to expand...


Spirit - You need to switch to decaf
 
Perramas

Perramas

Inactive
oyster_777 said:
:whistle:

Submarine attack off both East and West coast USA. War started and finished in less than 1 hour. No one will telegraph a nuclear attack. It will be over with beofre anyone knows what happened.
Click to expand...


Then our submarines will respond and Russia is gone. We also have bunker buster nukes to take out underground shelter.

Plus it has taken decades to build up all the infrastructure in the world and it would be gone in a few hours. Russia would have no electricity, fuel or ports for shipping in supplies. Another factor would be all the dust that would be thrown up into the atmosphere. This dust would make the Russian winter even worse, add in no electricity, heat, food or fuel and the russian people are toast the first winter.

As I said Russia can not win a nuclear exchange, they may try but they will lose right along side of the USA.
 
Spirit Of Truth

Spirit Of Truth

Inactive
Perramas said:
Then our submarines will respond and Russia is gone. We also have bunker buster nukes to take out underground shelter.

Plus it has taken decades to build up all the infrastructure in the world and it would be gone in a few hours. Russia would have no electricity, fuel or ports for shipping in supplies. Another factor would be all the dust that would be thrown up into the atmosphere. This dust would make the Russian winter even worse, add in no electricity, heat, food or fuel and the russian people are toast the first winter.

As I said Russia can not win a nuclear exchange, they may try but they will lose right along side of the USA.
Click to expand...

:shk: :shk: :shk:

You obviously don't understand the topic of nuclear war fighting and I don't have the patience to explain here to you all the details as to why you're assessment is wrong. Nevertheless....you're wrong.

A simple point, however, is that the Yamantau Mountain bunker is below 3000 feet of quartz. I'd love to see a bunker buster that can penetrate that! :lkick:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/yamantau.htm

Everything Russia has been doing for the last 20 years has been geared, necessarily deceptively, to create the perfect stage and pretext for victory in the coming nuclear war with the U.S. They will be successful in the sense that the U.S. will be vanquished, the Western powers nullified and Russia will emerge from the dust as the dominant global hegemon.
 
Hfcomms

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Perramas said:
Then our submarines will respond and Russia is gone. We also have bunker buster nukes to take out underground shelter.
As I said Russia can not win a nuclear exchange, they may try but they will lose right along side of the USA.
Click to expand...

As has been mentioned before Russia has a robust civil defense plan and we have none. The communists wouldn't be opposed to loosing a hundred million of their own population if they feel they can benefit from it. Klinton signed PDD-25 & PDD-26 (Don't remember now which one applies) which basically said that we were standing down from our launch on warning posture. That we would absorb a first strike and then retaliate. Bush has never rescinded that posture.

We had a nuclear triad that we depended upon. That is pretty much gone. We have no strategic bombers on a 24 hour hardpan alert that can be launched and then recalled if not needed. We have reduced our missile squadrons and removed most of the mirv'd platforms and have single warhead missiles. Also I believe the authority for the sub commanders to independently launch has been removed. I believe they need a communications link from the National Command Authority to launch. What all this boils down to is we've unzipped our fly and dropped our pants and are inviting Russia to do a first strike. Nobody will win but if they hit quick they figure that they might only have to endure a very limited counterstrike and they may be willing to take that chance. Much more to this than meets the eye.
 
Spirit Of Truth

Spirit Of Truth

Inactive
Hfcomms said:
As has been mentioned before Russia has a robust civil defense plan and we have none. The communists wouldn't be opposed to loosing a hundred million of their own population if they feel they can benefit from it. Klinton signed PDD-25 & PDD-26 (Don't remember now which one applies) which basically said that we were standing down from our launch on warning posture. That we would absorb a first strike and then retaliate. Bush has never rescinded that posture.

We had a nuclear triad that we depended upon. That is pretty much gone. We have no strategic bombers on a 24 hour hardpan alert that can be launched and then recalled if not needed. We have reduced our missile squadrons and removed most of the mirv'd platforms and have single warhead missiles. Also I believe the authority for the sub commanders to independently launch has been removed. I believe they need a communications link from the National Command Authority to launch. What all this boils down to is we've unzipped our fly and dropped our pants and are inviting Russia to do a first strike. Nobody will win but if they hit quick they figure that they might only have to endure a very limited counterstrike and they may be willing to take that chance. Much more to this than meets the eye.
Click to expand...

PLUS:

1. The release of the Warsaw Pact and breakup of the Soviet Union have limited the targetability of the former Soviet military empire. We will no longer strike Eastern Europe, Kazakhstan, the Ukraine, etc. Only Mother Russia will potentially draw retaliatory fire....the country most prepared to weather a nuclear attack.

2. The disintegration of the Russian military has reduced its targetability as well. Mothballed bases and equipment dispersed throughout the countryside are much less vulnerable.

3. The facade of a Western-style democratic government in place in Moscow can be utilized to create tremendous uncertainty in the minds of U.S. leaders when the button is pushed....i.e., a Zhirinovsky can seemingly take power in a coup and launch an attack and we will be hard-pressed about how to strike back, i.e., should Russian economic and population centers be nuked in response to the irrational act of a madman who briefly took over the Kremlin?

Etc., etc., etc.
 
almost ready

almost ready

Inactive
There's been talk for years

about an attempt to create a color revolution in Russia.

With the high marks Putin gets, it's unlikely there will be the momentum for one. Part of the strategy was to have a real bloody mess of a violent demonstration with some damage to civilians by Police to rile up the populace. THis may be in the works, as a demonstration is planned for Moscow.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/04/13/marches.shtml

Somehow, with at least two years of prior notice, I doubt that the Russian police will bite. A bit of theater might occur, however, and get blamed on them.

We shall see.
 
Palmetto

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
Perramas said:
There is no way Russia could beat the USA in a fight. No country in the world can stand up to the USA armed forces and survive on the battlefield. If it comes to nukes Russia as well as the USA will be destroyed.
Click to expand...

I hope what you say is correct. I am afraid that we would lose in such a conflict.

1. We cannot "invade" Russian and win. Hitler and Napoleon proved that point twice before.

2. They could seize the ME and the oil before we could mobilize the troops to stop them (Read EZ 38, 39). Without oil we go broke overnight.

3. Yes, MAD means that we would both lose. But we, as a service economy have much more to lose. By the time (decades) it took us to get back on our feet, Europe would be the major player in the world (assuming they "sat this one out" as in Red Dawn).

4. The ONLY way we could defeat Russia is if they invaded the CONUS.

However, they will ally with China, Ven, Iran, Cuba, Nicaragua, Pakistan, and others if they were going all out to take us down (and out).

In that scenario, we have India, Britain, NZ, AU, and maybe Israel on our side.

In that scenario we lose.

In other words, there is no "win" for the US in the picture.

We are so vastly under defended that it makes my head spin. Americans are at the moment soft and apathetic (the traits of serfs). We can rise to the occasion, but time is a luxury we do not have.

It has been said that Americans play checkers but Russians play chess.

How many moves before checkmate?

I pray for our Nation.

P
 
Fisher

Fisher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Palmetto said:
I hope what you say is correct. I am afraid that we would lose in such a conflict.

1. We cannot "invade" Russian and win. Hitler and Napoleon proved that point twice before.

2. They could seize the ME and the oil before we could mobilize the troops to stop them (Read EZ 38, 39). Without oil we go broke overnight.

3. Yes, MAD means that we would both lose. But we, as a service economy have much more to lose. By the time (decades) it took us to get back on our feet, Europe would be the major player in the world (assuming they "sat this one out" as in Red Dawn).

4. The ONLY way we could defeat Russia is if they invaded the CONUS.

However, they will ally with China, Ven, Iran, Cuba, Nicaragua, Pakistan, and others if they were going all out to take us down (and out).

In that scenario, we have India, Britain, NZ, AU, and maybe Israel on our side.

In that scenario we lose.

In other words, there is no "win" for the US in the picture.

We are so vastly under defended that it makes my head spin. Americans are at the moment soft and apathetic (the traits of serfs). We can rise to the occasion, but time is a luxury we do not have.

It has been said that Americans play checkers but Russians play chess.

How many moves before checkmate?

I pray for our Nation.

P
Click to expand...


Palmetto,

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

Fisher
 
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