"24" Torture on TV : The View From The American LEFT'S BIBLE

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Membership Revoked
THE NATION



BLOG | Posted 01/15/2007 @ 12:35am
"24": Torture on TV
Jon Wiener



"24" is back on Fox TV. The hit show starring Kiefer Sutherland, which premiered Sunday night, once again features at least one big torture scene in every episode – the kind of torture the Bush White House says is necessary to protect us from you-know-who.

The show is much more successful than the White House at making the case for torture. Its ratings have gone steadily up over the last five years, while Bush's ratings have gone steadily down.

In "24," Sutherland plays special agent Jack Bauer, head of the Counter Terrorism Unit. He fights some of his biggest battles not with the dark-skinned enemies trying to nuke L.A., but rather with the light-skinned do-gooders who think the head of the Counter Terrorism Unit should follow the rules.

Back in season four, for example, the bumbling bureaucrats released a captured terrorist before he could be tortured, because a lawyer for "Amnesty Global" showed up whining about the Geneva Conventions. Jack had to quit the Counter Terrorist Unit and become a private citizen in order to break the suspect's fingers.

It's especially unfortunate to see Kiefer Sutherland play the world's most popular torturer, because his father, Donald Sutherland, has been a prominent antiwar activist since Vietnam days and starred in some great films critiquing fascist politics, including "MASH" and Bertolucci's "1900." It's unfortunate also because Kiefer's grandfather, Tommy Douglas, was Canada's first socialist premier, and was recently voted "the greatest Canadian of all time" -- because he introduced universal public health care to Canada.
The grandson meanwhile is being paid $10 million a season by Rupert Murdoch to shoot kneecaps, chop off hands, and bite his enemies to death (Sunday's special thrill). :sldr:
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The show's connection to the Bush White House and the conservative establishment became explicit last June, when Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff appeared alongside the show's producers and three cast members at an event sponsored by the Heritage Foundation to discuss "The public image of US terrorism policy." The discussion was moderated by Rush Limbaugh. The C-SPAN store sells a DVD of the event--price reduced from $60 to $29.95.

Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but also that it works. And it's also really exciting to watch. The show as usual made the "ticking time bomb" case for torture: we need to torture a suspect, or else thousands, or millions, will die in the next hour.

It's the same case made by Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who proposed that judges ought to issue torture warrants in the "rare 'ticking bomb' case," and by University of Chicago law professor and federal judge Richard Posner, who has written, "If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture should be used." He added that "no one who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."

Thanks to "24," tens of millions of TV viewers know exactly what Dershowitz and Posner are talking about. As Richard Kim pointed out in The Nation in 2005, those are the cases where "the stakes are dire, the information perfect and the authorities omniscient." Of course that's a fantasy of total knowledge and power, and of course the US has never had a real "ticking time bomb" case--but Jack Bauer faces one every Sunday night on Fox.



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Anne in TN

Deceased
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN JAN 14, 2007 18:17:05 ET XXXXX

IS FOX SET TO BLOW THE NUKES ON '24'?
Sun Jan 14 2007 18:14:34 ET

As Washington continues to raise concerns about terror threats on The Homeland -- a recent CIA report outlined a scenerio of possible "series of explosions using 'low charge' nuclear weapons" -- Hollywood and FOX-TV are set to up the ante with the new season of 24!

Few outside of the 24 set know the exact details of the new season unfolding, but studio sources claim producers are pushing hard to take it radioactive this time -- and keep it there.

"Time to wake the country up!" a top FOX source told the DRUDGE REPORT over the weekend. "I do not think there has ever been TV done like this, the viewer is going to be completely riveted."

The source claims executives are prepared for any fallout from local municipalities that may be on the receiving end of plot turns and twists. How many cities 24 puts on 'nuke alert' is unclear.

FOX has set a highly-controversial espisode of 24 to air Monday night, opposite NBC's GOLDEN GLOBES.

In 2002, White House officials questioned the timing and release of PARAMOUNT's action movie SUM OF ALL FEARS -- a movie which depicts a nuclear bomb unleashed on an American sporting event!

One senior Bush official, who spoke to the DRUDGE REPORT at the time, claimed the movie crossed over the line of civic responsibility and commerce.

Developing...
 

Midnight_Wolf

Membership Revoked
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN JAN 14, 2007 18:17:05 ET XXXXX

IS FOX SET TO BLOW THE NUKES ON '24'?
Sun Jan 14 2007 18:14:34 ET

As Washington continues to raise concerns about terror threats on The Homeland -- a recent CIA report outlined a scenerio of possible "series of explosions using 'low charge' nuclear weapons" -- Hollywood and FOX-TV are set to up the ante with the new season of 24!

Few outside of the 24 set know the exact details of the new season unfolding, but studio sources claim producers are pushing hard to take it radioactive this time -- and keep it there.

"Time to wake the country up!" a top FOX source told the DRUDGE REPORT over the weekend. "I do not think there has ever been TV done like this, the viewer is going to be completely riveted."

The source claims executives are prepared for any fallout from local municipalities that may be on the receiving end of plot turns and twists. How many cities 24 puts on 'nuke alert' is unclear.

FOX has set a highly-controversial espisode of 24 to air Monday night, opposite NBC's GOLDEN GLOBES.

In 2002, White House officials questioned the timing and release of PARAMOUNT's action movie SUM OF ALL FEARS -- a movie which depicts a nuclear bomb unleashed on an American sporting event!

One senior Bush official, who spoke to the DRUDGE REPORT at the time, claimed the movie crossed over the line of civic responsibility and commerce.

Developing...

I agree. I love this show, but I think it is crossing some lines. From what I seen last night. I am not a big fan of Arabians, or Iranians. I just thought it went a little over board in making them look bad. Hubby thought they were almost fermenting distrust. It wasn't pretty. Racism isn't pretty in any form. I wish all of our Muslims were gone from our country. But it isn't going to happen, and that isn't the way to go about it. Doesn't mean I won't watch it again tonight. Can hardly wait.
 

skip1

Membership Revoked
Plenty of Blonde hair, blue eye Muslims in the world. That is the reason that we must take the war to them to try to stop them or what you see on "24" WILL happen.
 

Infoscout

The Dude Abides
So if John Kerry were the Pres, and Keifer was a raging communist, and he was torturing a Republican on tv then the show would be ok?


I think anyone who is watching TV and expecting realism, or some moral good for us all message, should go back to listening to radio.


Demacommunistas, don't have the heart or intelligence for the fight, that we have to make on the enemy.


whatever.....................:kaid: :kaid: :kaid:
 

Digital Omnivore

Veteran Member
reality

I agree. I love this show, but I think it is crossing some lines. From what I seen last night. I am not a big fan of Arabians, or Iranians. I just thought it went a little over board in making them look bad. Hubby thought they were almost fermenting distrust. It wasn't pretty. Racism isn't pretty in any form. I wish all of our Muslims were gone from our country. But it isn't going to happen, and that isn't the way to go about it. Doesn't mean I won't watch it again tonight. Can hardly wait.


It's not racist to portray reality. As a matter of a fact, I think it's much worse to portray something other than reality in order to not offend anyone.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Heck, for an example of Hollywood telling it like it really is out there where the rest of the world is, just look at Tears of the Sun from 2003.
 

MGNiko

Inactive
I thought it was great. When I start seeing radical Christians blowing up busses, dance clubs, malls, and hotels then I will say that profiling by religion doesn't work; until then all I see are radical Muslims.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but also that it works. And it's also really exciting to watch.

Even though I enjoy the show, I am no fan of torture (with the exception of to save millions of lives.) I find the bolded statement above absolutely disgusting....
 

et2

TB Fanatic
Plenty of Blonde hair, blue eye Muslims in the world. That is the reason that we must take the war to them to try to stop them or what you see on "24" WILL happen.



That's assuming of coarse you believe that all the Terrorists (muslims) are all waiting in line in Iraq and afganistan to let us take a shot at them. That Bush is protecting us. Really now ... anyone who believes that is a fool. Borders wide open ... just ask the mexicans ... it's a joke! They are here ............. :whistle:
 

homepark

Resist
Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but also that it works. And it's also really exciting to watch.

Even though I enjoy the show, I am no fan of torture (with the exception of to save millions of lives.) I find the bolded statement above absolutely disgusting....

I can do without the gore.

I find it amusing that the writer of the article equates socialism with compassion. Yes, I have heard many times that 'well, there is no pure socialist state" argument so many times I could puke. Their hugging Castro and Chavez does not help.

Also, he says "of course the US has never had a real "ticking time bomb" case--but Jack Bauer faces one every Sunday night on Fox. " I wouldn't be so sure, bucko.
 

AddisonRose

On loan from Heaven
I had to turn off the show last night, some of those torture scenes were down right barbaric. I was getting nauseous. AR
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Commentary and 24 spoilers

I've been a cop for many years and the problem here is clarity. Terrorism is not a crime, it's state sponsored or stateless war by non conventional means. It's not something you put people in jail for it's something you execute them for either after a military tribunal or in the field when caught red handed. The biggest challenge to my profession is realizing in a terror event the normal rules must go out the window.The enemy must be put down hard, with security rounds to the head as you pass them to prevent them from going active behind you even though wounded.
If you told me tomorrow there was a nuc in a major american city and we 15 hours to find it, and I had 2 terrs in intell detention, I would wire them for sound so fast it would make your head swim.
you people don't get it, you are too wrapped up with partisan politics , or your own sense of the high value of your tender feelings. These people the radical muzzies and their so called mainstream muzzies supporters want to see the west, our nation and everything we have managed to build since 1300 AD destroyed and the survivors on their knees either praying to Mecca, having the the head removed at the neck or living in a Dhimmi style 4th class slave life style.
We have in this nation forgotten what it is to be hard, we have forgotten what it takes to confront evil on this scale, we are wasting the last little bit of space the greatest generation got us against the last great evil.Damn people it's about cultural survival and the which culture will be the dominant culture in the world.




To lighten things up some SPOILER ALERT FOR 24





A california city gets nuked tonight, there are 4 other nukes out there.

Curtis buys it.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
We have in this nation forgotten what it is to be hard, we have forgotten what it takes to confront evil on this scale, we are wasting the last little bit of space the greatest generation got us against the last great evil.Damn people it's about cultural survival and the which culture will be the dominant culture in the world.

If America's "cultural survival" means that we become mass murderers and torturers, I'm not sure I'd want to live in THAT version of America. At that point, we've become what we hate the most - savages. "God bless the USA - now OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
But Dennis,

the "Greatest Generation" which included my parents, uncles, aunts, etc, went to places and did things that might well pass as barbaric.

My uncle fought in North Africa.

ANother uncle was part of one of the Intel Units responsible for liberating more than one concentration camp.

ANYONE who fought in some of the more well known battles in the Pacific did to our softened psyches unimaginable things.

It WAS about being HARD when one HAD to be HARD.

And we, 2-4 generations later aer NOT Hard anymore.
 

homepark

Resist
If America's "cultural survival" means that we become mass murderers and torturers, I'm not sure I'd want to live in THAT version of America. At that point, we've become what we hate the most - savages. "God bless the USA - now OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

I have run into that type. They are usually universally viewed as 'off their rocker'. It is a symptom of PTSD. That is why you get them out of a position of power, whether it is behind a rifle, with their finger on the button, or they keep muttering 'kill them all'.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
We have in this nation forgotten what it is to be hard, we have forgotten what it takes to confront evil on this scale, we are wasting the last little bit of space the greatest generation got us against the last great evil.Damn people it's about cultural survival and the which culture will be the dominant culture in the world.

If America's "cultural survival" means that we become mass murderers and torturers, I'm not sure I'd want to live in THAT version of America. At that point, we've become what we hate the most - savages. "God bless the USA - now OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

Dennis the closest greatest threat I can compare to the islamofacist is the WWII enemies. They were pure evil, the current enemies make them look like pikers. America then had no problem leveling cities, or causing what we call collateral damage to win. Even the occasional strong interrogation was used maybe not sanctioned but used never the less. My point is Americans are so stupid as to now believe we can win a war without causalities on our side, and without causing any damage to anyone other than the evil doers.
The enemy we face has no problem with any of this. You cannot fight such an enemy without having the guts to do what must be done and then live with it. In short most American in the country who are crying about this are idiot pussies who don't have what it takes and we probably are going to lose our country over a bunch of culturally related issues over the next 50 year if that long. When a nation loses the will to do what is needed to survive that nation generally ceases to exist shortly there after.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have run into that type. They are usually universally viewed as 'off their rocker'. It is a symptom of PTSD. That is why you get them out of a position of power, whether it is behind a rifle, with their finger on the button, or they keep muttering 'kill them all'.

Well then Ike, Patton, Montgomery , Churchill , FDR (Aka the bastard) and Truman, as well as millions that fought in the ETO AND PTO are off their rockers. The torture part of what I am talking about is so minuscule but it makes such a great red herring for the puppet masters on the I Hate America team.

If it is required to bomb the hell out of a city , like Fallushja (not sure I spelled that right) without warning we should do it. If in a case such as a nuke in place in the US we have to wire a few people for sound we should do it. but the major thing is the current crop of Baby boomer's need to grow a pair and realize the enemy is still fighting the crusades and will keep coming unless we decide it is better to kill than be killed. Right know there is way too much hand wringing over very few civilian deaths at our hands . We are not the bad guys, and I wouldn't even be arguing this if those people had no flown aircraft into our buildings and killed our people as the cap of a 25-30 year line of terror attacks . This nation could have stopped this shortly after the 1983 Marine Barracks bombing but they didn't.So now we have an even bigger more dangerous mess .
 

Nerdling

Inactive
What they didnt tell you is that some people just plain old don't respond to torture.

Oh, and then theres also the possibility that the person being tortued lies to you to stop the pain, wasting valuable time and even lives.

When someones got a 9v connected to the babymakers people are going to say anything.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
What they didnt tell you is that some people just plain old don't respond to torture.

Oh, and then theres also the possibility that the person being tortued lies to you to stop the pain, wasting valuable time and even lives.

When someones got a 9v connected to the babymakers people are going to say anything.


True I prefer chemical interrogation but I'm not willing to take anything off the table in certain circumstances.I want us to win not them.
 

Nerdling

Inactive
The truth drugs aren't all that I'm afraid.

The 'biggies' like sodium thiopental are really just anaestethics. As lying is a more complex action than telling the truth it is believed that the correct dose administered in the correct place can numb certain higher brain functions which will make lying chemically impossible. In theory, that is.

It's an exact science that can't be relied upon in crisis situations. More likely than not you'll have a vegetable struggling to remember how to correctly put together a coherent sentence.

You also have to get them to talk, even though the drug may work you still have to go through the trouble of getting them to open their mouth.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The truth drugs aren't all that I'm afraid.

The 'biggies' like sodium thiopental are really just anaestethics. As lying is a more complex action than telling the truth it is believed that the correct dose administered in the correct place can numb certain higher brain functions which will make lying chemically impossible. In theory, that is.

It's an exact science that can't be relied upon in crisis situations. More likely than not you'll have a vegetable struggling to remember how to correctly put together a coherent sentence.

You also have to get them to talk, even though the drug may work you still have to go through the trouble of getting them to open their mouth.

True enough but time distortion, sleep deprivation and many other things that aren't really physical can be used with them to enhance effectiveness as I understand it.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
TP, a few points if I may re: WW2...

The Germans weren't "pure evil". Their GOVERNMENT was. In actual fact, the Japanese were FAR worse in their treatment of combatants than the Germans. The Germans killed millions of Jews as a POLITICAL move. All that being said, yes, we bombed the hell out of cities in WW2, and killed tens-of-thousands of civilians. Although not a Good Thing, I would support doing that in the ME area for this war. The "minimum collateral damage" BS is simply not effective. You have to pound the enemy into the dust without quarter.

But that's not the issue. What we're speaking about is deliberate torture. I condemn that, and will continue to condemn that. While it might be necessary in extremis, it's certainly NOT as a routine interrogation technique. I find it barbarous, and if the US government condones torture, we have sunk to the level of those we most hate. I do NOT want to live in an America that's the moral equivalent of the Taliban. No thank you....
 

dharma

madman across the water
What we're speaking about is deliberate torture. I condemn that, and will continue to condemn that. While it might be necessary in extremis, it's certainly NOT as a routine interrogation technique. I find it barbarous, and if the US government condones torture, we have sunk to the level of those we most hate.
What puzzles me is how few seem to agree with you, Dennis. Last I looked, torture was something bad guys did—that's what made them bad guys. And we're the good guys, right?

Kill 'em if they need killing, quickly and efficiently? Got no problem with that. Torture 'em? Yeesh...
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
TP, a few points if I may re: WW2...

The Germans weren't "pure evil". Their GOVERNMENT was. In actual fact, the Japanese were FAR worse in their treatment of combatants than the Germans. The Germans killed millions of Jews as a POLITICAL move. All that being said, yes, we bombed the hell out of cities in WW2, and killed tens-of-thousands of civilians. Although not a Good Thing, I would support doing that in the ME area for this war. The "minimum collateral damage" BS is simply not effective. You have to pound the enemy into the dust without quarter.

But that's not the issue. What we're speaking about is deliberate torture. I condemn that, and will continue to condemn that. While it might be necessary in extremis, it's certainly NOT as a routine interrogation technique. I find it barbarous, and if the US government condones torture, we have sunk to the level of those we most hate. I do NOT want to live in an America that's the moral equivalent of the Taliban. No thank you....

I am neither talking about it in a normal situation Dennis as I said I believe if I new a nuc was gonna go boom then I would wire someone for sound. Current techniques seem to working well as we have gotten info from many people at Gitmo with them and everyone has their toe and finger nails in tact. I guess I'm just frustrated at the kill no one and win the war types who believe harsh words and bad breathe will work against our enemy. We will have to get our hands bloody to win this one and I doubt the american people will do that. I'm really beginning to doubt we deserve to win , no matter what my feelings are.As a people we have become soft and stupid.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
if I new a nuc was gonna go boom then I would wire someone for sound.

On this I agree 100%

Now we are understanding each other. I am so frustrated by what is being called torture. Gitmo is not torture, with the exception of allowing the dogs to bite the prisoners the college boy hazing by troops wasn't torture. The enemy is a hard core, stone cold killing mutherf****r and we have at least got to be as hard. This nation has not won a war since WWII and I fear people have forgotten what it takes to win. If this nation , goes down then there is no one to save us it's over the world goes into dark ages mode. We have to cowboy up and take what is going on seriously.We do not have to give up our rights as citizens but the enemy isn't entitled to many of the same rights. I am also scared as I think we are losing , due to the Kum Ba Ya attitudes of many.
 
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Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
On a side note you guys need to look at tonight's episode and see what will happen to people like us with the Patriot act laws and authorities are applied by Hitlery on the conservatives. We will be the ones in detention centers. It may be gun control it may be political action, who knows what will trigger it, maybe another fake terr attack like the OKC bombing, but she will get us.
 

freebyrd

Membership Revoked
thats why i am against all the provisions of the patriot act, if I'm gonna be free you have to be free,
be you conservative or leftist liberal lunatic, it will be used against patriots in the future,
perhaps thats why they named it what they did
freebyrd
 

FREEBIRD

Has No Life - Lives on TB
"On a side note you guys need to look at tonight's episode and see what will happen to people like us with the Patriot act laws and authorities are applied by Hitlery on the conservatives. We will be the ones in detention centers. It may be gun control it may be political action, who knows what will trigger it, maybe another fake terror attack like the OKC bombing, but she will get us."

And when the Socialists (hell, let's call a spade a spade, "Communists") have control, how many of the cheerleaders for torture will still be cheering? Because if we establish torture-as-policy, we will end up on the receiving end some day.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
That show lost me two seasons ago

Because of Jack's conduct. The only difference between him and the guys he tortures is that he just happens to be on the right side.
 
you people don't get it, you are too wrapped up with partisan politics , or your own sense of the high value of your tender feelings.

Gotta love it. Thank you for making my day TP. Says it all in a nutshell IMO.

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
"On a side note you guys need to look at tonight's episode and see what will happen to people like us with the Patriot act laws and authorities are applied by Hitlery on the conservatives. We will be the ones in detention centers. It may be gun control it may be political action, who knows what will trigger it, maybe another fake terror attack like the OKC bombing, but she will get us."

And when the Socialists (hell, let's call a spade a spade, "Communists") have control, how many of the cheerleaders for torture will still be cheering? Because if we establish torture-as-policy, we will end up on the receiving end some day.

Freebird I expect to be mistreated, tortured, and then eventually killed intentionally or by neglect , just as I expect no quarter and will give no quarter on the he field of the civil war that is coming , when this happens I have no illusions about the enemy foreign or domestic. I simply refuse to take anything off the table for the most extremed cases in the war on terror. Torturing a terr or sitting back and playing good cop , bad cop while a nuc goes boom is not an option.
 
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