New Freedom
Veteran Member
Last edited:
Video of Bush's self-pardoning for torture-- part of current anti-terrorist leg.
- Thread starter New Freedom
- Start date
This is a clip for all TBers to see
deja
Inactive
I posted this whole thing yesterday..........where'd it go????
Ah, here..........http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=213506&highlight=torture+bill
BTW, this scares the SH*T out of me............things will NEVER be the same again if this goes through.
There is nothing ANY of you can say to me to make this Bill seem like the right thing to do.
This MUST go by Congress et all...........and they MUST KNOW what they are signing...........POINTED OUT in yellow highlighter if necessary for the IDIOTS.
NEVER say that GW isn't slick.........like you all thought that Willie was slick.............
Ah, here..........http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=213506&highlight=torture+bill
BTW, this scares the SH*T out of me............things will NEVER be the same again if this goes through.
There is nothing ANY of you can say to me to make this Bill seem like the right thing to do.
This MUST go by Congress et all...........and they MUST KNOW what they are signing...........POINTED OUT in yellow highlighter if necessary for the IDIOTS.
NEVER say that GW isn't slick.........like you all thought that Willie was slick.............
brokenwings
Veteran Member
This just makes me physically ILL!!! I have too many words to say how mad this makes me but I can't put them here! 
darkdakota
Membership Revoked
Vote Democrat next month. Not because they are better but because the circus that will ensue will disprupt the War Pigs for a bit...
Pelosi as Speaker of the House, Charlie Rangel in charge of money, can't remember the guy who hates Bush in charge of the Justice Committee......
Chaos in the beltway in good right now....less they can screw us......
Dark
Pelosi as Speaker of the House, Charlie Rangel in charge of money, can't remember the guy who hates Bush in charge of the Justice Committee......
Chaos in the beltway in good right now....less they can screw us......
Dark
Oh you socialist Terrorist lovers are all a twitter...
Well let's see, the Dem's FOR POLITICAL payback have already threatened to drag the entire government into the swamp of withhunts continuously asking have you stopped beating your wife only answer yes or no.
Meanwhile they and you lib trollers who monitor boards like these (how many are on the payroll of a foriegn currency trader???) totally disregard the law of unintended consequences.
We are at war and I would rather that the enemy pays the price and not American's. Regardless as to the desires of the anti-US Euro weenies and traitors here are home.
As for the Vote for Dem's to force the government into chaos, although economically I always prefer gridlock, we live in dangerous times. And the same crowd who upgraded China's missile technology and so-called balanced the budget entirely on the backs of defense and intelligence spending prior to the attacks of 9/11 wish to grasp control again... What to upgrade Chavez's military????
There, is that strong enough for you!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well let's see, the Dem's FOR POLITICAL payback have already threatened to drag the entire government into the swamp of withhunts continuously asking have you stopped beating your wife only answer yes or no.
Meanwhile they and you lib trollers who monitor boards like these (how many are on the payroll of a foriegn currency trader???) totally disregard the law of unintended consequences.
We are at war and I would rather that the enemy pays the price and not American's. Regardless as to the desires of the anti-US Euro weenies and traitors here are home.
As for the Vote for Dem's to force the government into chaos, although economically I always prefer gridlock, we live in dangerous times. And the same crowd who upgraded China's missile technology and so-called balanced the budget entirely on the backs of defense and intelligence spending prior to the attacks of 9/11 wish to grasp control again... What to upgrade Chavez's military????
There, is that strong enough for you!!!!!!!!!!!!
corona
Senior Member
Politics in the shitter
I think with this Bill, the White House is admitting that the Demos will take both houses and know what lies ahead. Was torture applied to some high ranking terrorist?? I,m sure it was. Not by US personnel but arranged by Govt officals and signed off by GWB. Am i glad that some were beaten up ....hmmm on the one hand cities blowup and our kids die, on the other a few ragheads got theri ass-kick and we were able to devert an attack. SO Hell yeah i have no problem. Back to the election, as soon as the demos get back into power, it,s payback time and I see an impeachment after Jan 2007. To the demos, it doesnt matter if they have an legal foot to stand on, they just wanta put Bush though the ringer and the hell with the american people and what great damage it will do to The United States. So all you TB,ers who,s been predicting a terrotist attack, can take it to the bank during the Impeachment of GWB
I think with this Bill, the White House is admitting that the Demos will take both houses and know what lies ahead. Was torture applied to some high ranking terrorist?? I,m sure it was. Not by US personnel but arranged by Govt officals and signed off by GWB. Am i glad that some were beaten up ....hmmm on the one hand cities blowup and our kids die, on the other a few ragheads got theri ass-kick and we were able to devert an attack. SO Hell yeah i have no problem. Back to the election, as soon as the demos get back into power, it,s payback time and I see an impeachment after Jan 2007. To the demos, it doesnt matter if they have an legal foot to stand on, they just wanta put Bush though the ringer and the hell with the american people and what great damage it will do to The United States. So all you TB,ers who,s been predicting a terrotist attack, can take it to the bank during the Impeachment of GWB
ainitfunny
Saved, to glorify God.
We are becoming the helpless subjects of the depraved, perverse, obsessed, and maniacal rulers who govern us. They have asserted the unaccountable power to do anything at all that they deign to do to us or anyone else. They rule through intimidation and fear mongering, riding roughshod over the civil rights of law abiding citizens whom they portray as "terrorist sympathizers" if they speak out against the outrages upon their persons, property and rights. THEY ARE THE "LOCAL" TERRORISTS with whom we must deal and submit to their latest decrees daily.
Any and everywhere we have come to meekly submit to outrageous violations of our person based on the thinnest pretext, searches of ordinary, law abiding citizens, even children and the disabled and elderly. Women required to submit to searches of their purses, children their backpacks, men their breifcases. We now routinely meekly submit to the "authorities" SEIZURE of our totally innocuous possessions, without recourse or reimbursement. We are now asked to trust no one, suspect everyone, and REPORT anything "suspicious" about those around us. We are encouraged to paranoia by the authorities who taught us to view every misplaced lunch bag or momentarily left backpack or package as so very likely to be a bomb that police must chase hundreds of these false alarms daily across the nation.
The "eternal vigilance" we are asked to perform against what, in reality, is more statisticly akin to a fear of the "BOOGYMAN" is an untenably monsterous sham to foist on the people, and the pitiful sight of supposedly mature, responsible adults actually, seriously, succombing to a government instigated "snipe hunt" ruse is monetarily, materially, and morally unacceptable.
I, for one, have had ENOUGH of this mode of governance and shall vote accodingly come November.
Any and everywhere we have come to meekly submit to outrageous violations of our person based on the thinnest pretext, searches of ordinary, law abiding citizens, even children and the disabled and elderly. Women required to submit to searches of their purses, children their backpacks, men their breifcases. We now routinely meekly submit to the "authorities" SEIZURE of our totally innocuous possessions, without recourse or reimbursement. We are now asked to trust no one, suspect everyone, and REPORT anything "suspicious" about those around us. We are encouraged to paranoia by the authorities who taught us to view every misplaced lunch bag or momentarily left backpack or package as so very likely to be a bomb that police must chase hundreds of these false alarms daily across the nation.
The "eternal vigilance" we are asked to perform against what, in reality, is more statisticly akin to a fear of the "BOOGYMAN" is an untenably monsterous sham to foist on the people, and the pitiful sight of supposedly mature, responsible adults actually, seriously, succombing to a government instigated "snipe hunt" ruse is monetarily, materially, and morally unacceptable.
I, for one, have had ENOUGH of this mode of governance and shall vote accodingly come November.
HuntingWolf
Membership Revoked
Do you all promise to move to France if the dems don't win?
deja
Inactive
Now, for the real story.............http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...gal_residents_rights_curbed_in_detainee_bill/
``Habeas corpus" is the legal mechanism that gives people the right to ask federal courts to review their imprisonment.
In the original bill, the section banning ``habeas corpus" petitions applied only to detainees being held ``outside the United States," referring to the roughly 450 prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay. But in recent days, the phrase ``outside the United States" was removed.
The White House did not respond to questions asking why the restriction was extended to people in the United States.
-----
Wartime decisions to hold people perceived as threats have often proved problematic. During World War II, the government held over 100,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans in internment camps. (When they challenged their internment, the Supreme Court twice ruled against them. Decades later, however, the government acknowledged that the internment was unjustified and apologized.)
Jennifer Daskill , US advocacy director of Human Rights Watch, predicted that the Supreme Court would strike down the provisions in the current bill that would take away access to courts for legal US residents arrested in the United States. Still, she said, it could take years before the court rules on the issue, during which time many people could be imprisoned.
========
Until it is you or your family member, you will believe the hyperbole about it only being about terrorists & present detainees..........I can see why the WH didn't answer their question.........
NEXT, it's.......
========
This ........read it and weep.......no matter who wrote it , nor where you read it. Follow the links.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/290906torturebill.htm
Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism
Legislation tolls the bell for the day America died, birth of the dictatorship
Buried amongst the untold affronts to the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the very spirit of America, the torture bill contains a definition of "wrongfully aiding the enemy" which labels all American citizens who breach their "allegiance" to President Bush and the actions of his government as terrorists subject to possible arrest, torture and conviction in front of a military tribunal.
-------------------
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.6166: for the Bill
-------------------
After five hours of searching through the 80-plus page bill, Alex Jones, who won the 2004 Project Censored award for his analysis of Patriot Act 2, uncovered numerous other provisions and definitions that make the bill appear as almost a mirror image of Hitler's 1933 Enabling Act.
--
"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."
The Bush administration is preemptively overriding any challenge to the legislation by the Supreme Court.
----------
Further actions that result in the classification of an individual as a terrorist include the following.
- Destruction of any property, which is deemed punishable by any means of the military tribunal's choosing.
- Any violent activity whatsoever if it takes place near a designated protected building, such as a charity building.
- A change of the definition of "pillaging" which turns all illegal occupation of property and all theft into terrorism. This makes squatters and petty thieves enemy combatants.
(THIS all leads up to your kid could be classed as a terrorist......teens who do wierd things, ya know.........by where? a charity center maybe?............See this down the road a ways
)
=======
This is another telltale facet that proves the bill applies to U.S. citizens and includes them under the "enemy combatant" designation. We previously cited the comments of Yale law Professor Bruce Ackerman, who wrote in the L.A. Times, "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."
The New York Times stated that the legislation introduced, "A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted."
----------
``Habeas corpus" is the legal mechanism that gives people the right to ask federal courts to review their imprisonment.
In the original bill, the section banning ``habeas corpus" petitions applied only to detainees being held ``outside the United States," referring to the roughly 450 prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay. But in recent days, the phrase ``outside the United States" was removed.
The White House did not respond to questions asking why the restriction was extended to people in the United States.
-----
Wartime decisions to hold people perceived as threats have often proved problematic. During World War II, the government held over 100,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans in internment camps. (When they challenged their internment, the Supreme Court twice ruled against them. Decades later, however, the government acknowledged that the internment was unjustified and apologized.)
Jennifer Daskill , US advocacy director of Human Rights Watch, predicted that the Supreme Court would strike down the provisions in the current bill that would take away access to courts for legal US residents arrested in the United States. Still, she said, it could take years before the court rules on the issue, during which time many people could be imprisoned.
========
Until it is you or your family member, you will believe the hyperbole about it only being about terrorists & present detainees..........I can see why the WH didn't answer their question.........
NEXT, it's.......
========
This ........read it and weep.......no matter who wrote it , nor where you read it. Follow the links.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/290906torturebill.htm
Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism
Legislation tolls the bell for the day America died, birth of the dictatorship
Buried amongst the untold affronts to the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the very spirit of America, the torture bill contains a definition of "wrongfully aiding the enemy" which labels all American citizens who breach their "allegiance" to President Bush and the actions of his government as terrorists subject to possible arrest, torture and conviction in front of a military tribunal.
-------------------
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.6166: for the Bill
-------------------
After five hours of searching through the 80-plus page bill, Alex Jones, who won the 2004 Project Censored award for his analysis of Patriot Act 2, uncovered numerous other provisions and definitions that make the bill appear as almost a mirror image of Hitler's 1933 Enabling Act.
--
"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."
The Bush administration is preemptively overriding any challenge to the legislation by the Supreme Court.
----------
Further actions that result in the classification of an individual as a terrorist include the following.
- Destruction of any property, which is deemed punishable by any means of the military tribunal's choosing.
- Any violent activity whatsoever if it takes place near a designated protected building, such as a charity building.
- A change of the definition of "pillaging" which turns all illegal occupation of property and all theft into terrorism. This makes squatters and petty thieves enemy combatants.
(THIS all leads up to your kid could be classed as a terrorist......teens who do wierd things, ya know.........by where? a charity center maybe?............See this down the road a ways
)=======
This is another telltale facet that proves the bill applies to U.S. citizens and includes them under the "enemy combatant" designation. We previously cited the comments of Yale law Professor Bruce Ackerman, who wrote in the L.A. Times, "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."
The New York Times stated that the legislation introduced, "A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted."
----------
So many enemy combatants, so little time. Hey, does this carry over to the "next" President? Or won't we even get that far?
We will never get that far
The New World Order/Global Government Administration has gone too far to ever take a chance of losing control.
We will have another "Pearl Harbor Like Event" and GW will declare an emergency and declare the Constitution as null and void for the duration.
don
This is a serious matter. It needs to be discussed seriously. A lot of the serious threads are highjacked into finger pointing and accusations. Blame game. Religious proofs. Liberal bashing. It was Clinton's fault. Or it is the scary democrats that might get in power again.
I have called names especially the "liberal" one. But if that is what it means to believe, truly believe in our system then I am one. In 8th grade I was the only one who passed the verbatim test on the Declaration of Independence. I memorized the whole thing. I have been an active member of my community wherever I have lived. Five times a PTA president, a foster mother, raised 5 children, was on two Los Angeles County Commissions and our Town Council. Worked in many many many many political campaigns, registering hundreds and hundreds of voters. Getting out the vote. Having the election in my home for 25 years.
Now, I have grave concerns about what is happening to this country. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence has stood for what this country believes. They are the Bible of Democracy.
We fought several world wars in order to preserve this democracy. Now if we are faced with another type of enemy we are being asked to abandon our bedrock tenets of democracy.
Even the most heious criminal has the right to a fair trial. We have more people in prison proportionally than any other country in the world. All these people have had trials.
We have the right to bear arms. Many on this board are staunch believers in this tenet of democracy.
The declaration of independence says "a prince whose actions denote a tyrant, should not the leader of a free people be." This was in relationship to King George III. So, is our George acting like a tyrant?
But in order to preserve the freedom we purport to want to defend we must defend the tenets of the democracy that gives us that freedom. And if any of those tenets are in jeoprady or are caused to be diminished we must fight to preserve them.
This is not a question of whether or not the "bad" people are worthy of the tenets of freedom. Because we have said in these documents that define our democracy that "all people are created equal." So we cannot start saying there are degrees of equal.
Does anyone know what crimes those taken to the crematoriams in Germany were accused of? And remember they were not all Jews. Was their crime being Jewish, or disavowal of Hitler's regime?
We are on the precipice here. Everyone must have equal rights to freedom and the tenets that define freedom. No one can write a law that exonorates themselves from crimes against the free or else we have become slaves.
I have called names especially the "liberal" one. But if that is what it means to believe, truly believe in our system then I am one. In 8th grade I was the only one who passed the verbatim test on the Declaration of Independence. I memorized the whole thing. I have been an active member of my community wherever I have lived. Five times a PTA president, a foster mother, raised 5 children, was on two Los Angeles County Commissions and our Town Council. Worked in many many many many political campaigns, registering hundreds and hundreds of voters. Getting out the vote. Having the election in my home for 25 years.
Now, I have grave concerns about what is happening to this country. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence has stood for what this country believes. They are the Bible of Democracy.
We fought several world wars in order to preserve this democracy. Now if we are faced with another type of enemy we are being asked to abandon our bedrock tenets of democracy.
Even the most heious criminal has the right to a fair trial. We have more people in prison proportionally than any other country in the world. All these people have had trials.
We have the right to bear arms. Many on this board are staunch believers in this tenet of democracy.
The declaration of independence says "a prince whose actions denote a tyrant, should not the leader of a free people be." This was in relationship to King George III. So, is our George acting like a tyrant?
But in order to preserve the freedom we purport to want to defend we must defend the tenets of the democracy that gives us that freedom. And if any of those tenets are in jeoprady or are caused to be diminished we must fight to preserve them.
This is not a question of whether or not the "bad" people are worthy of the tenets of freedom. Because we have said in these documents that define our democracy that "all people are created equal." So we cannot start saying there are degrees of equal.
Does anyone know what crimes those taken to the crematoriams in Germany were accused of? And remember they were not all Jews. Was their crime being Jewish, or disavowal of Hitler's regime?
We are on the precipice here. Everyone must have equal rights to freedom and the tenets that define freedom. No one can write a law that exonorates themselves from crimes against the free or else we have become slaves.
moocollins
Rider of the storm!
You have got to be kidding! right?
If they did nothing wrong then why not be a stand up guy and stand behind your actions?
I thought that it was illegal to pardon yourself?
I am at a loss for words...
What happened to the conservative party? Who stole the heart of true conservatism?
If they did nothing wrong then why not be a stand up guy and stand behind your actions?
I thought that it was illegal to pardon yourself?
I am at a loss for words...
What happened to the conservative party? Who stole the heart of true conservatism?
DarkDakota,
I would like to believe that your comment hoping for an internecine war in our government was an attempt at sardonic humor. However, after experiencing the liberal mindset for so many years, I understand it for what it is; the inability to admit that your are wrong.
The pettiness of the liberal mindset has ceased to amaze me. I expect nothing more of them than I would of a two year old who is having a tantrum because he/she has been told, "No, you may not have another cookie."
I have two theoretical questions for you, and other liberals who care to answer it. The first one is; If your spouse/child/significant other/parent or someone who was close to you was secreted away by a kidnapper and you had access to that kidnapper, what means would you use to extract the information? If you didn't extract the information, assume that that person would die. How far would you go? Would you wring your hands and vehemently state that the kidnapper has rights which must be upheld even if it means the death of your loved one?
Now, apply the same parameters to a second scenario with one change, which is; you don't know the kidnap victim. The person will still die if his/her location is not extracted. Does not knowing that person make a difference in your final decision?
The scenarios above are not theoretical. They are allegorical, but real. The kidnappers represent terrorists (Just to avoid the inevitable liberal attempt at obfuscating the issue, let me categorically state that yes, terrorists exist and they are not pawns of the Bush administration plotting away to make him an Emperor). The victims are... well... you... and me... and the rest of the American population.
Now then, here is where you are wrong. We (i.e., Americans) are not like the terrorists. To imply that we are is unpatriotic, un-American, and vile. Even if we use the exact same methods to extract information, which we don't, we are not terrorists. There is one critical difference; we are doing so to prevent death and they (the Islamofascists) have declared, and are implementing, war on us.
In every war there are those who are the aggressors, and those who defend against them. We are the defenders. I wholeheartedly endorse the use of any means necessary to gain the pertinent information. I have an instinct for self-preservation. I want my family to live. I am tired of having to explain this concept, so let me state this as simply as possible; we are the good guys. Our laws are better. Our society is better. Our morals are better. We are better. Freedom is better.
If you don't understand that at this point, please feel free partake of just one of your rights as an American; emmigrate to the Islamic country of your choice.
Best Regards,
I would like to believe that your comment hoping for an internecine war in our government was an attempt at sardonic humor. However, after experiencing the liberal mindset for so many years, I understand it for what it is; the inability to admit that your are wrong.
The pettiness of the liberal mindset has ceased to amaze me. I expect nothing more of them than I would of a two year old who is having a tantrum because he/she has been told, "No, you may not have another cookie."
I have two theoretical questions for you, and other liberals who care to answer it. The first one is; If your spouse/child/significant other/parent or someone who was close to you was secreted away by a kidnapper and you had access to that kidnapper, what means would you use to extract the information? If you didn't extract the information, assume that that person would die. How far would you go? Would you wring your hands and vehemently state that the kidnapper has rights which must be upheld even if it means the death of your loved one?
Now, apply the same parameters to a second scenario with one change, which is; you don't know the kidnap victim. The person will still die if his/her location is not extracted. Does not knowing that person make a difference in your final decision?
The scenarios above are not theoretical. They are allegorical, but real. The kidnappers represent terrorists (Just to avoid the inevitable liberal attempt at obfuscating the issue, let me categorically state that yes, terrorists exist and they are not pawns of the Bush administration plotting away to make him an Emperor). The victims are... well... you... and me... and the rest of the American population.
Now then, here is where you are wrong. We (i.e., Americans) are not like the terrorists. To imply that we are is unpatriotic, un-American, and vile. Even if we use the exact same methods to extract information, which we don't, we are not terrorists. There is one critical difference; we are doing so to prevent death and they (the Islamofascists) have declared, and are implementing, war on us.
In every war there are those who are the aggressors, and those who defend against them. We are the defenders. I wholeheartedly endorse the use of any means necessary to gain the pertinent information. I have an instinct for self-preservation. I want my family to live. I am tired of having to explain this concept, so let me state this as simply as possible; we are the good guys. Our laws are better. Our society is better. Our morals are better. We are better. Freedom is better.
If you don't understand that at this point, please feel free partake of just one of your rights as an American; emmigrate to the Islamic country of your choice.
Best Regards,
deja
Inactive
Nice post (#19) Ladydkr, especially Does anyone know what crimes those taken to the crematoriams in Germany were accused of? And remember they were not all Jews. Was their crime being Jewish, or disavowal of Hitler's regime?
We are on the precipice here. Everyone must have equal rights to freedom and the tenets that define freedom. No one can write a law that exonorates themselves from crimes against the free or else we have become slaves.
------------
I don't like what's going on at all. I BELIEVE there are quite a number of conspiracies going on all at once, some dove-tailing. I don't like that GW has done this:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/070906terroristrecruiters.htm
Alex Jones' 2001 documentary film 9/11: The Road to Tyranny featured footage from a FEMA symposium given to firefighters and other emergency personnel in Kansas City in which it was stated that the founding fathers, Christians and homeschoolers were terrorists and should be treated with the utmost suspicion and brutality in times of national emergency.
We have highlighted previous training manuals issues by state and federal government bodies which identify whole swathes of the population as potential terrorists. A Texas Department of Public Safety Criminal Law Enforcement pamphlet gives the public characteristics to identify terrorists that include buying baby formula, beer, wearing Levi jeans, carrying identifying documents like a drivers license and traveling with women or children.
A Virginia training manual used to help state employees recognize terrorists lists anti-government and property rights activists as terrorists and includes binoculars, video cameras, pads and notebooks in a compendium of terrorist tools.
Shortly after 9/11 a Phoenix FBI manual that was disseminated amongst federal employees at the end of the Clinton term caused waves on the Internet after it was revealed that potential terrorists included, "defenders of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN, " and individuals who "make numerous references to the US Constitution." Lawyers everywhere cowered in fear at being shipped off to Gitmo.
In May we broke the exclusive of a nationwide FEMA program which is training Pastors and other religious representatives to become secret police enforcers who teach their congregations to "obey the government" in preparation for a declaration of martial law, property and firearm seizures, and forced relocation
We are on the precipice here. Everyone must have equal rights to freedom and the tenets that define freedom. No one can write a law that exonorates themselves from crimes against the free or else we have become slaves.
------------
I don't like what's going on at all. I BELIEVE there are quite a number of conspiracies going on all at once, some dove-tailing. I don't like that GW has done this:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/070906terroristrecruiters.htm
Alex Jones' 2001 documentary film 9/11: The Road to Tyranny featured footage from a FEMA symposium given to firefighters and other emergency personnel in Kansas City in which it was stated that the founding fathers, Christians and homeschoolers were terrorists and should be treated with the utmost suspicion and brutality in times of national emergency.
We have highlighted previous training manuals issues by state and federal government bodies which identify whole swathes of the population as potential terrorists. A Texas Department of Public Safety Criminal Law Enforcement pamphlet gives the public characteristics to identify terrorists that include buying baby formula, beer, wearing Levi jeans, carrying identifying documents like a drivers license and traveling with women or children.
A Virginia training manual used to help state employees recognize terrorists lists anti-government and property rights activists as terrorists and includes binoculars, video cameras, pads and notebooks in a compendium of terrorist tools.
Shortly after 9/11 a Phoenix FBI manual that was disseminated amongst federal employees at the end of the Clinton term caused waves on the Internet after it was revealed that potential terrorists included, "defenders of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN, " and individuals who "make numerous references to the US Constitution." Lawyers everywhere cowered in fear at being shipped off to Gitmo.
In May we broke the exclusive of a nationwide FEMA program which is training Pastors and other religious representatives to become secret police enforcers who teach their congregations to "obey the government" in preparation for a declaration of martial law, property and firearm seizures, and forced relocation
I am not liberal in fact I am one of those at risk for wanting the government to be limited by the Constitution.
As far as the questions about how far one would go to gain information from a kidnapper to free a loved one, it is not a good example.
The individual may do a lot of things that a government is forbidden from doing. The individual who beats the location out of the kidnapper will still have to be tried for violating the law. He can decide if the punishment he would be liable to is worth the reward of getting his loved one back.
That is how a system of laws work. The law applies to everyone and is supposed to be blind.
Our government has always had the ability to beat the information out of a suspected criminal. The information they gained, while it could be used to rescue a victim, was not allowed to be used against the accused in a court because it was illegally obtained.
What we are giving our government the ability to do today is to torture anyone it wishes and decide whether they want to use any information so gained to prosecute them or simply lock them up for life without a trial.
Do you think the government will never torture the wrong person?
How many prisoners have been arrested and held by our government in its "War on Terror" and how many have been tried for a crime?
If you really think only the bad guys have anything to fear from the power of the federal government why do you suppose our founders bothered to write the Constitution?
don
Yes. They have it all set up for Hitlery. Unless a major blast comes before 08, which I think will happen.So many enemy combatants, so little time. Hey, does this carry over to the "next" President? Or won't we even get that far?
buff
Deceased
our founding fathers could have never had any concept of nuclear, biological or chemical warfare. nor could they grasp the explosive power available 200 years after they were gone. they could have never dreamed of a scenario where millions could be wiped out in one stroke. in this modern age, a moderate sized nuke could kill more people in one blow than were american citizens at the time of our founding fathers...
in a time of war, a country must draw together for the common good....
if you don't want to be a part of our victory, then get the hell out of the way...because WE understand whats a stake and will win despite you....
So in your world the Constitution and its guarantees of citizen's rights is simply no longer applicable?
Do you believe the government of today is no longer constrained by the limitations of that Constitution?
don
buff
Deceased
no...
but i believe we should do everything in our power to prevent any more innocent people being killed wherever in the world by the threat that is islamic terror...
the lives lost in bali, 911, beslan and tons of other places in the world may not mean much to you, but they do to me...
255 of my neighbors were killed in beirut..we got the memorial here to prove it. i knew two people killed on 911. you can go ahead and try to further your liberal agenda by blaming america for all of this, but at some point someone had to say stop...and thats what we did. i'm sorry if it inconviences don. but its really about a bigger picture than you...
fulltimer, the world does not revolve around you...never did and never will..
and if you would, can you provide an example of how this collosal loss of rights you have experienced has affected YOU personally?
but i believe we should do everything in our power to prevent any more innocent people being killed wherever in the world by the threat that is islamic terror...
the lives lost in bali, 911, beslan and tons of other places in the world may not mean much to you, but they do to me...
255 of my neighbors were killed in beirut..we got the memorial here to prove it. i knew two people killed on 911. you can go ahead and try to further your liberal agenda by blaming america for all of this, but at some point someone had to say stop...and thats what we did. i'm sorry if it inconviences don. but its really about a bigger picture than you...
fulltimer, the world does not revolve around you...never did and never will..
and if you would, can you provide an example of how this collosal loss of rights you have experienced has affected YOU personally?
Fulltimer,
Do you grasp how absolutely ludicrous your response was. Were our American G.I.s morally equal to the Nazis? Should our G.I.s have been tried as muderers? Should anyone be penalized for saving innocent lives? Why? The "Moral Equivalency" argument is an ill-conceived and intellectually void response to a very simple dilema; How do you combat terrorists who are trying their very best to destroy Western civilization? Our founding fathers never had to deal with terrorists and they could not have possibly conceived of this type of threat. Your argument is based on a categorical error and is not valid.
Futhermore, enemy combatants are not American citizens, with very few exceptions. They are not soldiers of any country. Therefore they cannot be afforded any rights as American citizens or under the Geneva Convention. If the terrorists are not soldiers of a foreign country, that means that they are not bound under the Geneva convention. Perhaps if they stop plotting to kill us, we should consider granting them some rights.
Let me be honest with you. I do expect innocent people to be tortured. Would I prefer to see 10,000 terrorists go free rather than one innocent person tortured? No. I would not. Can you not see how dangerous this line of thought is. The vast majority of the terrorists held in our custody are dangerous. Allow me to further simplify the situation; They want to kill you and every one you know and love. So yes, lock them up. Throw away the key. Stop them by any means necessary before they bring it to this continent again.
In any war, the difference has never been in the means with which it is fought, but rather the reason. Self preservation should be enough reason for anyone. Anyone with the capacity for reason, that is.
Best Regards,
Do you grasp how absolutely ludicrous your response was. Were our American G.I.s morally equal to the Nazis? Should our G.I.s have been tried as muderers? Should anyone be penalized for saving innocent lives? Why? The "Moral Equivalency" argument is an ill-conceived and intellectually void response to a very simple dilema; How do you combat terrorists who are trying their very best to destroy Western civilization? Our founding fathers never had to deal with terrorists and they could not have possibly conceived of this type of threat. Your argument is based on a categorical error and is not valid.
Futhermore, enemy combatants are not American citizens, with very few exceptions. They are not soldiers of any country. Therefore they cannot be afforded any rights as American citizens or under the Geneva Convention. If the terrorists are not soldiers of a foreign country, that means that they are not bound under the Geneva convention. Perhaps if they stop plotting to kill us, we should consider granting them some rights.
Let me be honest with you. I do expect innocent people to be tortured. Would I prefer to see 10,000 terrorists go free rather than one innocent person tortured? No. I would not. Can you not see how dangerous this line of thought is. The vast majority of the terrorists held in our custody are dangerous. Allow me to further simplify the situation; They want to kill you and every one you know and love. So yes, lock them up. Throw away the key. Stop them by any means necessary before they bring it to this continent again.
In any war, the difference has never been in the means with which it is fought, but rather the reason. Self preservation should be enough reason for anyone. Anyone with the capacity for reason, that is.
Best Regards,
corona
Senior Member
Politics in the shitter 2
Did i say i was a democrat?? i dont think so . Am i a GWB Koolaid drinker? Nope. I was just stating the state in which american politics has gone too. When the democrats (i say this because of idiots like Tom Foley giving people (Sheeple) reason to vote democrat ) gain control of congress, and no agenda but to distroy the other party and retain power. BTW yes i do know the impeachment of Clinton wasnt about Blowjobs, it was obstruction of justice.
Did i say i was a democrat?? i dont think so . Am i a GWB Koolaid drinker? Nope. I was just stating the state in which american politics has gone too. When the democrats (i say this because of idiots like Tom Foley giving people (Sheeple) reason to vote democrat ) gain control of congress, and no agenda but to distroy the other party and retain power. BTW yes i do know the impeachment of Clinton wasnt about Blowjobs, it was obstruction of justice.
Rusty Shackelford
Inactive
Attachments
brokenwings
Veteran Member
Instead of finger pointing and arguing, it is time to STOP this administration!!! We need to do whatever it takes to save our country for your children!! We are on the brink of madness here!!
I agree that Bush is Hitler!! May God have mercy.
I agree that Bush is Hitler!! May God have mercy.
darkdakota
Membership Revoked
First of, thaw out your brain, I am not a liberal. Nuke every ****ing raghead in the morning and it wouldn't bother me. Just don't give me a hand job about the WOT while you do it.
Enrich your war mongering buddies and piss on our rights. And, no, we are no longer the good guys. That movie filming ended years ago. Now we are the war profiteers, oil hawkers, and cheap labor brokers. The Bush Cabal could care anymore for women's rights in Iraq and Afghanistan as they do for what they flush each morning.
Jus because I don't buy your crap doesn't mean it hasn't been thought out. We do have plans to leave the country. When and where is our concern. Let the Bushies have what's left of the dream they pissed away.
Dark
dberszerker
Veteran Member
Hey dark,
You be sure to take the other liberal trash too, I believe you can find a place in France near the Islamic ghetto.
You be sure to take the other liberal trash too, I believe you can find a place in France near the Islamic ghetto.
Kalliope
Inactive
And therein lies 2 problems - 1) how do you tell 75% of the people they are wrong, you are right, so they have to go? 2) What war? Which war?
Personally, I think we should be going after Pakistan & Afganistan - these are the places where all terroist activities begin. But, thanks to the anti-Christ Reagan, we give Pakistan $2 Billion a year to give to the Taliban as they see fit.
Supposedly, all that stands between us and the Taliban is the president of Pakistan, who leads the progressive Muslims in the cities, (Discovery Times had a graduate of Smith College who from Pakistan film documentaries from her country. Interesting stuff). I don't know. But Iraq was never the problem, but became a problem due to Rumsfeld wanting another Vietnam and throws us into this quagmire. Now we find out Kissinger is bring in the play books from Vietnam, telling Bush to stay the course and supposedly we will win in some 25 years from now. WTH?!? We have too many old white men running this war, waxing nostaligic for WWII when we were the good guys, not realizing that was thrown away with Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, and now Iraq. We also have way too many 25 years olds running the gov't. These two groups need to be kicked to the curb, bring in the 48-64 year olds, who have a lick of sense, have kids and grandkids and realize they are the one's who will be fighting, know what the word diplomacy means, and have a sense of spirituality that just because They commit torture, we ain't.
I will be onboard for a war if and when we know exactly who it is we are fighting. A smoky 'them' ain't good enough.
Oilpatch Hand
3-Bomb General, TB2K Army
This kind of abject, unthinking paranoia is exactly why I read threads like this. Frankly, I just need the laughs.
And, somehow, our resident screaming-meemies never disappoint! Color me a satisfied comedy customer here!
This kind of abject, unthinking paranoia is exactly why I read threads like this. Frankly, I just need the laughs.
And, somehow, our resident screaming-meemies never disappoint! Color me a satisfied comedy customer here!
OilPatch Hand is a terrorist!
OilPatch Hand is a terrorist!
OilPatch Hand is a terrorist!
OilPatch Hand is a terrorist!
Somebody call Chetoff and tell him OilPatch Hand is a terrorist!
don
darkdakota
Membership Revoked
Hey dark,
You be sure to take the other liberal trash too, I believe you can find a place in France near the Islamic ghetto.
Go **** yourself.
Dark
darkdakota
Membership Revoked
Actually, they may have had a little more forethought then you give them credit for.....all read Revelations.
Try reading The Inner Jefferson (Portait of a Greiving Optimist) by Andrew Burstein.
I think the founding father's knew exactly what was coming....and set out to protect us from crap like the Patriot Act, the child strip search bill they are working on, etc. The Constitution isn't "living" document. It doesn't "give" us Rights.... it is supposed to protect us from an over zealous federalist power graber exactly lie the Bush Administration has proven itself to be.
Along with Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, Bush may be the worst President for rights we have ever had.
Dark