Elderberry Extract Recipe for H5N1

[Garand]

H5N1 kills people with the HEALTHIEST immune system. The healthier your immune system the harder your boddy attacks the H5N1 virus, which results in your lungs liquifying and you coughing up blood and chunks of lung tissue until you suffacate to death. Its good to take the extract now, but I sure wouldn't be taking elderberry extract once the H5N1 bug goes person to person. That is sure suicide. Just my opinion.

[L.A.B.]

Is the Elderberry an immune stimulator or is it a anti-viral against some or all flu virus?

I realize that even SAMBUCOL is formulated with and without the obvious immune stimulant echinacea. Could it be for just this purpose (H5N1) that some of product is sold this way??? In regards to my self generated question here; I am now staring at the back of the box the SAMBUCOL comes in. In the last paragraph it states in bold print:For year-round defense use SAMBUCOL IMMUNE SYSTEM formulas; alluding to a different formula, the one with the immune factor echinacea. This packed 7.8 oz. bottle states Original Syrup VIROLOGIST DEVELOPED CLINICALLY TESTED EXTRACT...

If (SAMBUCUS NIGRA) "black elderberry" is anti-viral, then it seems that a constant dosage would prevent infection whether H2H or not. The actual dosage from the SAMBUCOL product is as follows: Adults two teaspoons daily for maintance. Children one teaspoon. FOR INTENSIVE USE: Adults two teaspoons four times daily. Children one teaspoon four times daily.

Under supplement facts: Two teaspoons of product equals one serving which contains SAMBUCOL (Elderberry extract (berry) 3.8 g

Does black elderberry itself (SAMBUCUS NIGRA) contain both immune enhancing and anti-viral compounds?

Seems there should be no immune response if the virus is kept in check. But L.A.B. does not wear a lab coat... so I'm all ears if there are any takers. I think I need to research some of Dr. Madeleine Mumcuoglu's published clinical studies.

[summerthyme]

Does black elderberry itself (SAMBUCUS NIGRA) contain both immune enhancing and anti-viral compounds?

LAB... maybe! How's THAT for an answer!? LOL!

Seriously... it's main mode of action (from lab studies) is to stop the virus from replicating. My old herbals always seemed to focus more on the elder*flower* as the immune booster. It's possible the berry has *some* immune stimulant activity, but it's not known as one like echincea and some other herbs.

I've looked at all the possibilities, and decided that because the cytokine storm (over-the-top immune response) is very much *dose related* (the more virus you have in your system, the stronger the response), using elderberry EARLY and OFTEN should work well enough to limit the viral load... thereby limiting any potential immune system blowout.

I would definitely avoid echincea, which is almost purely an immune system stimulant. And using curcumin plus piperine to help moderate the immune response by fighting the inflammatory response should be useful as well.

At this point, our chosen response (if H5N1 turns human-to-human and hits the US) will be to immediately begin taking NAC (known to help prevent influenza, but needs to be taken early). Total isolation on our farm, including not going near the barn when any sales people, milk truck driver, grain delivery men, etc are there will be our primary means of protection. If any reports of illness in our county or close by are heard, we'll start taking elderberry daily.

IF (God forbid) one of us becomes ill, we'll raise the elderberry dosage, and start taking resveratrol (in the form of my homemade Pinot Noir wine, which was bottled in small bottles specifically for this), as well as curcumin plus piperine.

I've got this whole protocol printed out in a notebook, and I might be missing something because I haven't got through it in awhile. But I have sufficient supplied of everything we should need in the herbal and alternative med line to treat my extended family (4 grown kids plus spouses/fiances), hopefully for as long as we'd need.

Everyone needs to think through their own protocols... but given what I've read and also our experience with elderberry (taken early in the course of a nasty influenza, it essentially stopped it in its tracks... other folks who didn't use it were ill for 10 days, and more than one went into bacterial pneumonia), that's our plan.

Summerthyme

[Army Girl]

Heads up about Sambucol
The company that used to make Sambucol was sold and the new company is adding harmful chemicals into the formula now. Here is the email from Herbal Healer that tells about the change.

snip
STATUS ON SAMBUCOL

As many of you know we are removing Sambucol from our
list of products. We have some of the original Sambucol left for Children. The company was sold and the new formula is not acceptable to us. Quote from our supplier bulletin: Original Sambucol - addition of sodium benzoate (to preserve
freshness), artificial flavors and purified water; deletion of raspberry extract Kids Syrup: addition of sodium benzoate (to preserve freshness) and artifical flavors; deletion of raspberry and peppermint extracts


HHA ALTERNATIVES

New HHA "FLEW AWAY" is an exclusive, potent, great tasting blend of
Elderberry Fruit and Flower (Sambucus nigra), Echinacea purpurea
root extract and Zinc Citrate. (1 teaspoon contains 5 mg. zinc) -
4 oz. bottle contains 24 servings. Adult dose: 1 teaspoon three times
a day or once a day for preventative maintenance. Children give 1/2
teaspoon. Children under the age of 3 - 10 drops in juice - 3 times a
day or once a day for maintenance dose. Base is Vegetable Glycerin,
so it is safe for children. An important feature about this product,
besides it is 100% natural, is that it is made in the U.S.A. No yeast,
wheat, alcohol, corn, soy, milk or eggs.

HHA ELDERBERRY POWER - 500 mg. 60 Veg. Caps
This is an very potent pure herbal done at a 10:1 concentrate making
it much stronger than plain elderberry. Elder (Sambucus nigra) has
been recognized for its high Vitamin C content, as well as
anthocyanins, which are potent free radical scavengers. It also
supports the immune system, and the research from Israel shows it
has amazing antiviral properties. This product is very safe and
should be used anytime there is flu or colds in the house. Can be
taken as a maintenance dose once a day throughout the winter months
too. Adult maintenance dose - 2 caps daily. Colds and Flu - 2 caps
three times a day. No sugar, starch, yeast, wheat, gluten, soy, milk,
egg, shellfish or preservatives.

WINTER SPECIALS FOR FLU AND COLD SEASON http://www.herbalhealer.com/postcards.html

[summerthyme]

There's a place called Todd's Honey Gardens (just google it) which sells a REALLY high quality elderberry syrup with honey from their own hives. Unfortunately, it does have echincea in it...but I think I'm going to contact them and suggest they consider making a version without that herb.

I used their syrup extensively as a "pattern" when devising my own recipe for elderberry syrup, although I skipped the apple cider vinegar and propolis. They're a good company to do business with.

Summerthyme

[night driver]

I should CLEARLY stick my head in here more often.

Summerthyme you mention "NAC" as part of your protocol....(unfortunately the search function won't search just 3 letters....) or I wouldn't ask what that is.....

[L.A.B.]

NAC summerthyme? ND and I are perplexed by the acronym.

Army Girl thank you for the heads up on the new SAMBUCOL. You are correct, Since the Product was sold it is now being manufactured in FRANCE, and RASPBERRY FLAVOR has replaced RASPBERRY EXTRACT. In addition SODIUM BENZOATE has replaced CITRIC ACID.

OBVIOUSLY REFORMULATED BY NUMBER CRUNCHERS seducing the product for profit margin.

IN ADDITION FALSE ADVERTISING NOW EXISTS ON THE CURRENT PACKAGES DUE TO THE CONTINUING STATEMENT "SAMBUCOL IS THE UNIQUE BLACK ELDERBERRY ACTUALLY USED IN PUBLISHED CLINICAL STUDIES. NO OTHER ELDERBERRY CAN MAKE THIS CLAIM. (L.A.B. 's note: how this claim still be made?)

The former product was previously manufactured in ISRAEL by Razei Bar Industries 1996 Ltd. for NATURES WAY.

The current Product by the same trade name SAMBUCOL is now manufactured in FRANCE for Healthcare Brands International Ltd of London UK, and is still imported ad distributed by Natures Way. This product no longer carries the KOSHER LABEL.

Looks like I will keep my old stuff, attempt to return the two new bottles I bought and order up ten more pounds of dried berries for my own tincture.

Thanks for the observations Army Girl.

summerthyme- the new stuff by SAMBUCOL is lacking Raspberry Extract, and incorporating SODIUM BENZOATE. Do you think the bean counters looking to extend shelf life have messed up a good product?

[L.A.B.]

A UK study found that Parkinsons and cirrhosis of the liver as well as breaks in the DNA are linked to SODIUM BENZONATE.

Well stick it in a health product then right.

[Army Girl]

If a product is indeed a natural cure or preventative then yes we should buy it. But when taking a product to prevent sickness and have it cause even worse sicknesses that is deception. People will go by the good press that Sambucol once had not even knowing they could be risking a worse fate than the cold or flu.
Natures Way needs to be taken to task on this.

Read labels and look up things in the PDR, mostly all of the chemicals and drugs cause worse problems and do not cure but mask symptoms. Over the counter drugs notwithstanding.

[sis]

Okay, here’s our latest on Sambucol.

We have been trying to track down a company that still has the old Sambucol formula and cannot find a source. This morning my hubby called the health food store in a city nearby. We have been dealing there for many, many years. Hubby talked to the store repesentative whom I will call Sara.

Sara said that when the French company bought out the Israeli company that produced Sambucol, the French company noticed that the ingredients in the product were not the same those listed on the box. There was a big bruhaha and this resulted in a large recall of the product until the label could be changed to reflect the ingredients that were actually in it.

According to Sara, previously purchased product, which did not show that it contained sodium benzoate, probably did contain sodium benzoate as well as the other suspicious ingredients. Trying to find the ‘original product’ is probably futile at this point. As far a Sara knows the Sambucol lozenges were not part of the recall and the ingredient list on that product is probably correct.

Sara added that there is a similar product called Sambu-Guard, but it has Echinacea added. Sara recommended not taking it for an extended period of time because of that addition.

And as has been discussed here, Echincacea is not recommded for H5N1.

[summerthyme]

Sorry guys... it's been BUSY here.

NAC...N- Acetyl Cysteine. It's a derivative of an amino acid, and is a potent anti-oxidant. It also has immune boosting powers, BUT seems to have anti-inflammatory abilities as well (which seems to indicate that it may be useful in the case of H5N1). It has potent mucous thinning properties, and that's believed to be one reason it seems to prevent recurrances of bronchitis and other lung problems.


[quote]N-Acetyl Cysteine Breaks up Mucus
N-Acetyl Cysteine cleaves disulfide bonds by converting them to two sulfhydryl groups. This action results in the breakup of mucoproteins in lung mucus, reducing their chain lengths and thinning the mucus, improving conditions such as bronchitis and flu. Double-blind research has found that N-Acetyl Cysteine supplements improved symptoms and prevented recurrences in people with chronic bronchitis. N-Acetyl Cysteine at a dosage of 1,200 mg per day helps to prevent Influenza infection and reduce the symptoms and duration of existing Influenza infection.[/QUOTE]

I can't find the citation and studies I read right now... but it appears that a dose of 600 mg to 1200mg (max) daily can prevent influenza. However, it seems to need to be in your system for at least a few days before exposure for maximum benefit. We don't take it year round, and in fact, don't take it at this time. We did use it last year when a nasty 'flu was going around the area, and neither of us got sick, but that's not proof of anything!

There is ONE study which shows problems with pulmonary arterial hypertension when NAC is taken... however, it was a rodent study, and appears to have used insanely large dosages.. the equivalent of a human taking a couple hundred thousand milligrams daily!

NAC should be taken with extra Vitamin C.

Do your own research, please! I would say that it's probable that someone who already has major pulmonary issues should try this supplement with extreme caution!

On the Sambucol "reformulation"... Sodium benzoate is in a LOT of foods, used as a preservative. Given a choice, I'd probably avoid it (and make my own syrup). However, if the only choice is "Sambucol to treat H5N1, including a very small amount of sodium benzoate" or "Nothing proven to treat H5N1 available"... I'd take the Sambucol.

As far as I know, the syrup from Todd's Honey Gardens doesn't contain ANY preservatives (except ETOH- alcohol) . It DOES, however, contain echinacea.

The "rule" on taking echinacea for extended periods is pretty simple: If you take it to boost your immune system, you need to stop taking it for 1 week out of every 5-6 (max) weeks. Otherwise, it seems to lose it's ability to strengthen the immune system. Now... thinking outside the box here... if H5N1 does turn into a problem (aside from the localized areas it's in now), and if you can't get an elderberry product anywhere which does NOT contain echinacea, it might be possible to take it continually, and actually LOSE the "immune boosting" effect from the echinacea.

Not my first choice, of course... but something to keep in mind.

It seems it would be wiser and much safer to simply make your own extract or syrup NOW, while you can. But in an emergency, if all you can get is the plain Sambucol with the sodium benzoate, or an elderberry product with echinacea in it... I'd take the Sambucol first, and the one with echinacea as a last resort... and then only if I had enough on hand to take it daily for a couple of months straight.

HTH

Summerthyme

[mole]

great thread and lots of usable information..thank you!

now for the question: How long can you store this "tincture" that is made with the dried elderberries and vodka? How long will it keep its strength? How long before it goes bad or will it ever?

TIA for any help,

~mole:

[summerthyme]

Mole... the tincture will store a long time. If you keep it in dark glass bottles (or clear glass in a dark cabinet or closed cardboard box), several years at least.

The syrup seems to store very well (especially the version with 10% alcohol as a preservative). Once we open a bottle of syrup, we refrigerate it until it's used up...more precautionary than necessary, I suspect. But the tincture is pretty much indestructible.

Summerthyme

[mole]

thanks, Summerthyme.

one more question. did I miss the post on how to make the syrup version of the tincture? If I did, can you point it out to me?

I have been looking at the HerbalCom website and I am getting ready to place an order. I will need enough tincture for 7 people so I am trying to calculate how much elderberry to buy. Can I find the dark bottles online as well?

on another note, I am a very, very light drinker. We occasionally splurge for some bubbly on our anniversary or New Year's but other than that we don't drink. The guy at the liquor store is going to when I tell him I want several bottles of vodka!

[summerthyme]

Mole- it's HERE: http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=210617
(post #2 in that thread)

But I'll repost the recipe again, because I get a lot of requests for it, and don't always have time to go looking for it!

I take fresh (or frozen) elderberries and crush them in a stainless steel or heavy enamelware kettle. Add a TINY bit of water (just enough to barely cover the bottom of the kettle to keep the berries from sticking) and heat it gently over LOW heat, stirring the whole mash up until it's no warmer than 150°. The heat helps release the juice from the berries, but I'm not certain of whether high heat would possible deactivate the antiviral properties. So I'm erring on the side of caution...

I either run the whole mash through my Vitamix (BRIEFLY... you don't want to grind up the seeds) at this point, or, if they seem to have been quite macerated already, just pour them into a jelly bag and let them drain. I've found that I get the most yield by putting them in two fine mesh bags and then putting the whole thing in my cheese press and pressing it. A cider press would work well, too. But if you don't have anything like that, simply taking the bag of mash, and twisting it tightly in your hands will get most of the juice out.

Anyway, once you've got your juice, you need to add enough sugar to preserve it. I've found that a equal ratio of sugar to juice by volume is sufficient, IF YOU WILL ADD ALCOHOL to help preserve it for storage. If you have an objection to any alcohol in the mix, you then need to use a 5:3 ratio of sugar to juice... this will give you a saturated syrup high enough in sugar so it won't spoil at room temperature.

If you prefer using honey, you need to use a slightly higher ratio.... approximately 11/4 cups of honey to every cup of juice. This is because of the water content already in the honey. Or, if you want to use pure honey without any added alcohol, you need a 2:1 honey/juice ratio.

Anyway.... stir in the sugar or honey into the warm juice, until it's all completely dissolved. If you've used the lower 1:1 ratio, at this point you need to add some alcohol for preservative. I've used Blackberry Brandy quite frequently for this... hoping to get some of the astringent and stimulant effects of the blackberry in the mix. If you use brandy, you need to add 3-4 ounces per pint of syrup.

If you simply want the alcohol as a preservative, you can add 3 ounces of 100 proof vodka, or a little more than 3 tablespoons of 160 proof vodka. (we can't get pure grain alcohol here... if you can, you can use 1 1/2 ounces of that instead).

Stir it gently, and decant it into STERILIZED jars or bottles. Use the same techinques you'd use when canning jelly- except this won't be hot enough for you to expect the seals to seal completely. As long as you sterilized the jars and the lids before bottling it, it shouldn't be necessary for it to seal.

LABEL IT!! You always think you'll remember what is in those jars, or when you made it. Wanna bet!? LOL! Seriously- make sure you put the date and at least whether or not there is anything but elderberry and sugar in there.

Store it in a cool, dark place (dark is especially important if you are using clear glass jars).

__________________________________________________ __________

A couple of points: if you're using dried berries, reconstitute them first. I'd do this by putting the berries in a deep bowl or big jar, and pouring boiling water over them... enough to cover + an inch or two (more if you're using a deep jar, less if you've got a bowl with more surface area). Put them in the fridge and leave them for 24-48 hours. Check them once or twice... if they've soaked up all the water, add more. If you're making tincture you don't want to add way too much water, so that's why I start with just about what I think they'll soak up.

If the narrative style of the "recipe" confuses you, just pull out the numbers and write them down separately.. you know ...measure your juice yield, and then figure out how much sugar, or honey you'll need. And then measure how much syrup you ended up with (if you're using the lower amounts of honey or sugar) and figure out how much vodka you'll need to add.

My preference, after making tincture, and syrup without alcohol and then syrup WITH alcohol (but with less honey) is the honey/syrup WITH alcohol to preserve it. Most people who I supply also seem to like that version the best. For sure, if I had small kids to possibly need to treat, I'd make the syrup.

It's not really a concern (well, more of a minor one, considering that we're talking about potentially treating a fatal disease here) but it's definitely cheaper to make a syrup than tincture. My main concern with the tincture is the idea of people taking the stuff and then DRIVING TO WORK!! In some jurisdictions, that would be enough to get them a DUI. Also, we're not heavy drinkers either (probably about like you....we drink my homemade wine and make beer - for hubby, I can't stand the stuff- but the local liquor store owner knows me as "the herb lady" because I buy lots of vodka for tinctures, but nothing else). But because we don't drink much at all, the idea of taking 1/2 ounce of high proof stuff every 4 hours or so is rather daunting!

The tincture has a couple of benefits for some people. First, it's very simple to make. I think the syrup is very easy, also, but it does involve some measuring, etc. For some, that's more than they're willing to deal with. Second, for folks with diabetes, the syrup isn't going to be good. For them, tincture is probably best. Actually, I've suggested for those folks to freeze the plain elderberry juice in ice cube trays... and then thaw one or two cubes out and simply use the juice for their "medicine". The other benefit of tincture is it's very long shelf life. The syrup keeps for at least 3 years (the commercial stuff has a "use by" date which is at least 3 years beyond when they ship it), but the tincture probably lasts longer than that by quite a bit.

Oh... dark bottles online. Google SKS packaging. And you want Amber bottles... the blue ones are very pretty, but don't exclude anywhere near as much light. OR, you could find grolsch beer bottles at a local beer and winemaking store and use those! Seriously... I love those bottles, with their "snap top" seals. They make some of the best herb bottles ever.

If I've confused you more, don't hesitate to ask questions!

Summerthyme

[Hfcomms]

@Summerthyme...

I have had elderberry and curcumin w/piperine tinctures made and stored for a few years now along with enough of the dried herbals to make more. A question I have is how much of the elderberry tincture would you take as a preventative when flu is in the area and if your symptomatic how much would you raise that??

You said above 1/2 oz every 4 hours....I take that to be once your symptomatic?? Also how much of the curcumin/piperine would you be taking?? Would you use that before exposure when flu is in the area or only after becoming symptomatic?? And again how much would you be taking.

I don't get sick very often but a few times I started coming down with the colds/sore throats and I would just use a single dropperful of elderberry tincture every few hours and I have always been over it in less than a day so from my prospective this stuff certainly works.

I also have echinacea tincture made up. Do you use this as a preventative immune booster for sicknesses other than BF which might have the cytokine storm implications??

I also understand that the curcumin/piperine is a bio enhancer so you need to be very carefull taking it with other prescription meds less you overdose yourself on your meds.

[summerthyme]

HFcomms... we usually take 1 tablespoon (1/2 ounce, 15 cc) morning and night if there are reports of 'flu in the area schools, or if our hired kid or someone else who has visited the farm report being sick, or being around people who are. (we're pretty socially isolated here, which I'm sure helps... back in the days when we had 4 kids in the public schools, once September hit, you just KNEW we were going to get every bug in the area).

My grown kids, who are teachers, college adminstrators and engineers (in other words, working closely with a lot of people) say that the same dose works for them... everyone in their office can be sick; they never catch it.

If anyone actually begins to feel ill, especially with the unmistakable "flu like" symptoms- aching muscles, "crawly" sensations, headache, fever... we immediately up the dose to the 1/2 ounce every four hours or so. This is where I prefer the syrup... you can take it as often as you want without any problems. A few years ago, my husband caught the classic influenza virus... it was going around his work place. He was SICK... shaking chills, temp of 103, so weak he could barely get out of bed. I gave him the homemade elderberry syrup in juice every couple of hours... 1 tablespoon of syrup each time. He probably got 10 doses in 24 hours... and he was back to work within 48 hours of his first shaking chill. All of his co-workers were out of work for at least a full week, and two of them ended up on antibiotics for secondary pneumonia. The stuff DOES work.

We don't use echinacea much any more, simply because our lives have changed.... little exposure. But when we did take it, we used it as a daily preventative/immune booster for 4 weeks on, and then 1 week completely off the stuff. It's been shown that if you take it for weeks on end without a break, it stops being effective. The 4/1 ratio isn't absolute- if you've been taking echincea for 4 weeks and then everyone in the area starts coming down with a nasty bug, you can keep taking it for another couple of weeks... just give yourself a "break" from it as soon as it's practical. And yes, avoid any basic immune boosting substances if H5N1 actually gets here!

The curcumin/piperine is something we take frequently, because of it's potent anti-inflammatory effects. It's one of the few things I've found that really help the fibro myalgia issues I have. Curcurmin alone isn't a problem as far as potentiating other drugs (but it can affect people who have gall bladder issues... it stimulates bile production). The piperine IS a potential major problem. Among other drugs it's known to enhance (or slow down the metabolism, keeping it in your body longer) are the erectile dysfunction products. Priapism is only funny if it doesn't happen to you!

For anyone taking ANY Rx meds, do some good research on piperine before you decide to take curcumin plus piperine, please! What the piperine does is enhances the absorption of the curcumin by a LOT. About 20X more is absorbed if you take the piperine with it. (also, piperine is one "herbal product" which has very limited "maximum dose". Most herbs- at least the commonly available ones- are very safe...you could presumably take 100X the usual dose without any real problems... maybe an upset stomach. But not piperine... 20 mg is MAX daily)

If you think curcumin might be useful for something (or you want to consider taking it for H5N1 issues) but you can't use piperine because of some other med you're taking, you might consider taking curcumin alone...at greatly increased doses. More expensive, and not as handy, but it's something to consider.

Summerthyme

[Hfcomms]

Thanks Summerthyme...appreciate it. I forgot that it was the pepper extract that was the bio enhancer. The only thing I remember from making that tincture was the bright yellow stain that the tumeric makes. Yuck!!

[mole]

thank you for taking the time to post all of that.

I have been reading quite a few herbal books in the last couple of months trying to find some relief for inflammation in my shoulder. (residual from car accident) After 4 rounds of steriods, I knew I can't keep doing that and the relief it provides is only tempory.

anyway, I have been taking Tumeric (curcumin) along with Quercitin from GNC (another tip I got off of this great forum!) and it has worked wonders.

Is there a tincture that I can make myself? Do you have a recipe for that? Or better yet, do you have an herbal remedy book that you recommend for beginning herbalists like me? I love to do the research and believe in the natural approach to healing. I turned down entire courses of meds from the docs I have seen...all treating the symptoms only and who knows what is in that stuff they prescribe?

I have bought the 4th Edition of Prescription for Nutritional Healing, 4th Edition by Phyllis A. Balch as well as

The New Encyclopedia of Vitamins, Minerals, Supplements, and Herbs: How They Are Best Used to Promote Health and Well Being by Nicola


I have ordered
Prescription for Herbal Healing: An Easy-to-Use A-Z Reference to Hundreds of Common Disorders and Their Herbal Remedies by Phyllis A. Balch


The first two books above are excellent sources of information detailing the purposes, dosage amounts, and possible toxicity of each thing. Very interesting reading.

BUT- they don't give any information about making remedies from bulk herbs. Can you point me in the right direction? I know there are entire courses and degrees offered for Holistic Healing and Master Herbalists, but until I complete my graduate degree in Mathematics I can't take on anything else. only so much brain power and at my age it is at a premium! LOL

[mole]

are these the type of bottles you are using?

http://www.sks-bottle.com/340c/fin1.html

[summerthyme]

Mole... yep. Shipping can be a big part of the cost, so depending on where you are located, you might be able to find a more local source. Remember, you can reuse the bottles... just rinse them out immediately after emptying one (because if you get any dried residue on them, it's a bugger to clean out), store upside down in their case, and either use a iodine based "sterilizer" (wine making supply, again) or boil them just before refilling.

One little book I keep recommending that people seem to like is called Handmade Medicines, by Christopher Hobbs. It's out of print, but you should be able to find it through Amazon or Abebooks (or a local used bookstore, maybe?)

I've got the books you showed in your post. One thing you'll get from the first one (if you've noticed) is that to a great extent, solid nutrition is THE most common "cure" for *any* problem. They recommend the same vitamins and "nutraceuticals" over and over... and they aren't wrong, obviously.

I'm really not in a good position to name names right now on books... all of mine are in waist tall piles spread all over my living room right now, waiting for my youngest son to build me some bookcases.

But... Steven Foster has written some very good books... they aren't precisely "beginners" books because he's very thorough, gets in depth, and references a ton of research.

Here's a book which you might enjoy:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...6x%3D0%26y%3D0

(Darn, getting old-er sux! I can't remember for sure... that book MAY be one which some Christian folks had issues with, because it contains some new-age-ish stuff along with the solid herbal preparation info. I didn't mind... my faith is strong enough that reading something from someone who doesn't share it doesn't bother me. But it really bugged a couple folks... so I'll mention it here)

As far as making a turmeric tincture, sure... just like any tincture. Basically, a 1:5 ratio by volume (1 tablespoon of turmeric to 5 tablespoons of 100 proof vodka) is the "standard" tincture formula. There are variations... and the Hobbs' book I mentioned above has an excellent chart which shows herbs which need a higher- or lower- alcohol concentration. But lacking that, you can pretty well get by with 1:5. (if you use more herb than that, which a lot of folks recommended on the elderberry threads, you'll end up wasting some of the active ingredients in the herb... whatever can't be absorbed by the alcohol. If you've got plenty of herb material, that's not a huge problem, and you can ensure that you're getting the strongest possible tincture by using more herb than the standard ratio calls for.

Since we've mentioned turmeric here, although it's off topic for 'flu, I'll mention that you can make an amazingly effective salve or linament with turmeric. The biggest drawback is the color, which WILL stain clothing. But it washes off skin better than I thought it would!

Anyway, I use it (mixed with some essential oils- which ones depend on what I'm treating) frequently in the barn on both horses and cows, and hubby is convinced the stuff is an absolute cure-all. (So are some of the local Amish- I get frequent requests to treat their horses and cows, too!). Basically, you just mix turmeric powder with about 1/4 as much salt or slaked lime (pickling lime). Don't ask me why you use salt or lime- that's how the ancient Ayurvedic practitioners did it! Anyway, then mix the two into anything you've got on hand to make a salve or lotion... a bland hand lotion, olive oil, vaseline (vaseline is what I use mostly for the stock... it makes a very sticky salve which stays where you put it). This works near miracles on bad sprains and other nasty inflamed swellings. For people, I sometimes just use the tincture as a linament type application... and it seems to help.

I've gotta warn you- this whole herbal thing can be absolutely addictive. I'd never have dreamed when I first started wondering what some of the plants we had growing on farm might be good for, where it was going to lead!

Summerthyme

[LC]

Summerthyme, thinking along the lines of turmeric tincture, what about adding black pepper? I know you and others have said that tinctures are usually made of a single herb.

I wonder in what ratio the turmeric tincture and a black pepper tincture should be used to get the best results? Should one use whole or ground black pepper?

I think I will make some turmeric tincture with the salt/pickling lime for my inflamed and basically shot knees. Anything to help. I know MSM helps them.

TIA
LC

[Hfcomms]

I used whole black peppers. I forget the ratio now but that is where the piperine comes from and you have to be extremely careful with it. It's very easy to OD on piperine and it will also enhance the absorability of any other prescriptions your currently taking.

[summerthyme]

(first, the link to the book is now in the post above, I think! Darn computers... sorry I didn't see that it was missing until now!)

I think using whole black peppers (or very coarsely ground ones) in the tincture would work. I'd weigh them, and figure out the potential piperine amount (generally accepted as being about 2% by weight... I actually extracted piperine from black peppers one time for fun, using directions I found on the 'net). Then figure what dose tincture you'd be taking (this is going to be the tricky part... I haven't used turmeric tincture much except as a topical... I take capsules plus piperine tablets), and make sure that there won't be more than 20 mg of piperine in a daily dose.

So, in a pint (500 mls) of tincture, if you used 10 grams of black pepper, you'd get 20 mg of piperine in every 2 1/2 ccs of tincture. Knowing what I do about tinctures, that might be a good daily dose... I'd probably divide it up and take it morning and night.

If it doesn't seem to be effective enough, I'd cut the amount of black pepper in half the next time (or add 500 mls of plain turmeric tincture to the turmeric/black pepper tincture you already have)... and take 2 1/2 ccs twice a day.

And if anyone checks my math and it's wrong-- TELL ME! I think it's right, but I've been known to look at things sort of backwards before this. LOL!

LC... if you're going to make a liniment from the turmeric, try adding some essential oils... geranium oil is a proven anti-inflammatory (in the lab, it actually knocks down the inflammatory chemicals in cells). It's not cheap, but you don't need much... maybe 1/2 tsp in a cup of liniment. Try adding a few drops of cinnamon and wintergreen as well. They are warming and help with blood flow. (as always, try your concoction on a SMALL area of skin and wait an hour or two... make sure you aren't allergic or sensitive to any of the ingredients. Folks who tend to be sensitive to everything really need to basically do a patch test with any new herbs or oils... put a dab of the new product on the skin on the inner part of your elbow or forearm, cover it with a bandaid, and leave it for 12 hours. Then (if you didn't already notice itching, or spreading redness... if you do, obviously, remove the bandaid immediately and wash the area with a mild soap. If you really reacted, use a bit of hydrocortisone salve on the spot),,, after 12 hours, if there was no reaction, you can pretty well figure you're save.

Most people don't have to go to those extremes, but it's a handy trick to know anyway.

(and if you try any of this, please let me know how it works- or doesn't- for you! An awful lot of my knowledge base has been acquired by experimenting... myself, on my animals, and experiments others have tried using some of my ideas. Obviously, not everything works on everyone. I'm keeping a book of formulas, recipes and blends which DO work... once something works really well (my essential oil fly spray, for example, and a couple of basic salves for the barn), I write them into the book. But even hearing what DIDN'T work for someone is helpful.)

Summerthyme

[LC]

Thanks Summerthyme. I will let you know how things turn out. It may be awhile. I'm not about to use the turmeric in my cabinet and the stuff in the grocery store is not much better. I'll have to get some fresher. Maybe the Mennonite bulk store who gets their herbs from Frontier. Trouble is, they're almost 2 hours away. Oh, well. I'll figure something out. Maybe order on line.

What about cayenne as an additive to stimulate circulation? I thought of that since you mentioned cinnamon and wintergreen? If so, in the tincture or what?

Thanks again.
LC

[summerthyme]

LC... Atlantic Spice, online, has excellent prices on bulk turmeric.

Cayenne might be interesting... try it (in small amounts) and see! That's how most of my various recipes and formulas have evolved.. something I read about some herb's properties (the anti-inflammatory properties of geranium oil for example) and decided to see if they'd work for me, often an a rather odd application (like using turmeric topically!)

We haven't used cayenne much, but certainly the capsasicin component is a potent anesthetic, as it depletes the "substance P" in the body. I don't know how well it would work on a joint which is already quite inflamed, but it's worth a try.

Summerthyme

[mole]

lol, I have thought of another question. I have been reading through the bird flu threads and I haven't seen this:

Once you have had bird flu, can you get it again? Or is it like chicken pox and you develop an immunity for it?

the answer to that will help me determine how many supplies I need to set in for making the tincture.

TIA (again)

[summerthyme]

Mole... I don't think anyone knows for absolute certain. It *appears* that you should have immunity... but with one potentially huge catch- no one seems to be sure whether immunity to one strain will confer immunity to a mutating strain, say, 18 months later.

Everything I've read expects this to come in "waves"... at least three waves of illness sweeping across the country. I believe they've based this on the lessons learned in the 1918 epidemic.

I'm figuring a minimum of 1 quart of syrup per person. (in reserve for H5N1, on top of what we use routinely during the winter flu season months). That gives around 65 "doses", which would mean about 10 days of round the clock, "every four hours" dosing. You'd be unlikely to take that much, that frequently, except in an acute case of illness, which means you've got about 1 month's worth of "preventative dosing" there.

But we also have the ability to almost totally self quarantine, with minimal direct human contact for as long as necessary, while still (as long as the milk company picks up our milk) being able to make a living.

For people who think they may be required to go to work right through the early phases of the pandemic, they may feel they need a much larger stock of medicine.

Summerthyme

[patb]

Sorry for the thread drift. But as I was getting ready to print this thread out, I noticed the mention of NAC.

Summerthyme, I subscribe to a newsletter from a Dr. Nan Fuchs (yes, I know they all want to sell something), but she advised using NAC to help protect liver function when taking acetametaphin (sp) or products with that in it. Have you ever seen this mentioned in connection with NAC?

Thanks for all your help and knowledge.

Patricia

[summerthyme]

patb.... yes, it's one of the main uses for NAC. We've never used it for that purpose, because we've routinely taken milk thistle extract (silymarin) for years whenever we have to take more than an occasional Rx or OTC med.

When I spent a year in and out of the hospital with the MRSA bone infection in my foot, with well over a dozen surgeries under a general anesthetic and many more with locals - or nothing!- plus the tons of pain meds, antibiotics, etc they were giving me, they kept doing blood tests for liver function.

An awful lot of those meds are hard on the liver, and they expect you to have some problems. Fortunately, the liver DOES regenerate even after pretty severe insults, if you give a chance.

My doctor was literally shocked- my liver enzymes and other tests never strayed from the optimum range. He couldn't figure it out... I told him I was taking milk thistle, and he thought it was "interesting", but I'm not sure if he believed it was possible for an herb to work that well!

Also, this is as good a place as any to remind anyone planning on using elderberry tincture that alcohol and acetominophen are NOT a good mix... even a couple of extra strength tylenol tablets with an alcoholic drink or two can be very hard on the liver. Someone taking a full dose of tincture daily plus tylenol more than once a day, may not die of influenza... but may cause some pretty major damage to their liver.

If you're going to use tincture, please consider using aspirin or ibuprofen for your OTC pain meds.

Summerthyme

[patb]

Tnx, Summerthyme. That explains why a doctor I saw several years ago asked me if I drank a lot of alcohol. I didn't; however had been using Excedrin PMs regularly. I cut that out, though.

Would much rather use natural remedies and I am trying to learn as much as I can about what is possible.

Patricia

[babysteps]

Summerthyme or Herbmountain....

Someone told me, or maybe I read somewhere, that elderberry will work for the flu but not for colds. That doesn't seem logical to me since they're both from viruses, and I figured I'd ask our experts.

So will elderberry knock out a cold as well as the flu?

[summerthyme]

Babysteps... while some folks swear by elderberry for the common cold, research seems to say that it *shouldn't* work (based on differences between the two types of virus, apparently). That said... it can't hurt!

However, I've found that a combination of extra zinc (as much as 300 mgs a day for short time) plus Vitamin C, and Zicam applied properly (if it's an upper respiratory type "cold") generally will stop one in it's tracks IF you start treatment as soon as you feel the first symptoms. Once you're into the full blown "sniffling, coughing, and blowing your nose every few minutes"... there isn't much that will help.

Airborne (or similar products) also is supposed to be very effective on a cold. I haven't tried it personally.

For a sore throat, zinc lozenges (again, starting as soon as you feel that first "tickle") will often stop it from developing any further.

We tend to "save" the elderberry syrup for "flu-like" symptoms... that unmistakable aching, headache, exhausted feverish mess that you just know is going to put you flat on your back for days if you don't find something which works. Since discovering elderberry several years ago, I can truthfully say that none of us have been "flat on our backs sick" since. We occasionally start with symptoms (usually when it's going around town, and the hired kid brings it to the farm as a "gift"), but so far, the elderberry has shut it down quickly every time.

Summerthyme

[babysteps]

Good to know, thanks, Summerthyme. We don't get the flu much around here-- I think the last time any of us had a flu bug was probably more than 2 years ago--but colds wander in and out of our house with alarming regularity. I was hoping maybe I could use the elderberry for that.

On a side note, Airborne doesn't seem to do much for us, but something called cold-fx, which is from ginseng, seems to work really well. I haven't tried any of the zinc products, so I'll have to look for those next time I'm in town. Thanks again!

babysteps

[Double_A]

So, I'm on my sabbatical from work, first day off was Monday.

I'm getting around to one of hundreds of projects I've neglected.

First day off, first project - Elderberry extract.

I bought three one pound bags of dried elderberries a couple months ago. Over the last month I've managed to consume a bottle of vodka (gawd it was needed, you can't believe the panic for the last four weeks before I was gone). This allowed me to buy another full bottle and then divide the second bottle in half by pouring half (500 ml) into the first bottle.

So now I've got two, one liter bottles, half full of 40% (80 proof) vodka.

I rinse the berries, in cold running water. My plan is to pour them with a funnel into each bottle.

Mistake, wet berries clump together and do not "flow" through the funnel into the bottle.

First work around: Make a funnel from a two liter soda bottle tape it to the neck of the one liter vodka bottle and slowly pour/shake/rock the berries into each bottle. That actually worked ok.

So now I've got two cups (by volume) of elderberries into two, half full bottles.

I placed each bottle into a paper bag to protect it from light (Damm, I feel like some vagrant hiding my booze from the public in a paper bag)

It's been only a couple days, but I think I may have used two many berries for the quantity of vodka. I'm wonder if I should add more vodka as the bottle is only two/thirds full at this point.

[Herbmountain]

Just add more vodka. When making tinctures, the plant material will absorb a good quantity of the vodka. This is why one needs to check and top off the vodka for the first few days. Once the plant material is saturated, your level will stay high.

[Double_A]

Thanks, they did swell quite a bit more than expected. I added another 100ml of vodka to each bottle.

[lectrickitty]

Concerning the placement of elderberry bushes...

A friend of mine has a long drive that follows a river for about 1/2 mile. There are a lot of trees along the river, and the banks are loaded with elderberry bushes. They are growing in the shade of the trees and survive the floods that put them under water for a few weeks every few years.

Evidently, once established, they are very hardy and can survive even the harshest treatment.

[meg]

Originally Posted by summerthyme

snip

Also, this is as good a place as any to remind anyone planning on using elderberry tincture that alcohol and acetominophen are NOT a good mix... even a couple of extra strength tylenol tablets with an alcoholic drink or two can be very hard on the liver. Someone taking a full dose of tincture daily plus tylenol more than once a day, may not die of influenza... but may cause some pretty major damage to their liver.

If you're going to use tincture, please consider using aspirin or ibuprofen for your OTC pain meds.

Summerthyme

As a matter of course, we don't recommend using aspirin for fever any more. ibuprofen alternating with acetaminophen are the standard we use. If you use a clock face, you would use 1000mg acetaminophen at 12/6 and 600mg ibuprofen at 3/9, around the clock for severe fever/symptoms. Aspirin has limited uses, for heart attacks, arthritis and as an anticoagulant.

If you want to take the acetaminophen without fear, you can de-alcohol your tincture and you won't have to worry at all.