The Brink of Madness

homepark

Resist
The writer captures a lot of what I am observing.
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http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDBhMzg5Mzk4NjQ5MjM5OTJhZjRjMWQ4OWMzNDhmMzk=

"When I used to read about the 1930s — the Italian invasion of Abyssinia, the rise of fascism in Italy, Spain, and Germany, the appeasement in France and Britain, the murderous duplicity of the Soviet Union, and the racist Japanese murdering in China — I never could quite figure out why, during those bleak years, Western Europeans and those in the United States did not speak out and condemn the growing madness, if only to defend the millennia-long promise of Western liberalism.

Of course, the trauma of the Great War was all too fresh, and the utopian hopes for the League of Nations were not yet dashed. The Great Depression made the thought of rearmament seem absurd. The connivances of Stalin with Hitler — both satanic, yet sometimes in alliance, sometimes not — could confuse political judgments.

But nevertheless it is still surreal to reread the fantasies of Chamberlain, Daladier, and Pope Pius, or the stump speeches by Charles Lindbergh (“Their [the Jews’] greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government”) or Father Coughlin (“Many people are beginning to wonder whom they should fear most — the Roosevelt-Churchill combination or the Hitler-Mussolini combination.”) — and baffling to consider that such men ever had any influence.

Not any longer.

Our present generation too is on the brink of moral insanity. That has never been more evident than in the last three weeks, as the West has proven utterly unable to distinguish between an attacked democracy that seeks to strike back at terrorist combatants, and terrorist aggressors who seek to kill civilians.

It is now nearly five years since jihadists from the Arab world left a crater in Manhattan and ignited the Pentagon. Apart from the frontline in Iraq, the United States and NATO have troops battling the Islamic fascists in Afghanistan. European police scramble daily to avoid another London or Madrid train bombing. The French, Dutch, and Danish governments are worried that a sizable number of Muslim immigrants inside their countries are not assimilating, and, more worrisome, are starting to demand that their hosts alter their liberal values to accommodate radical Islam. It is apparently not safe for Australians in Bali, and a Jew alone in any Arab nation would have to be discreet — and perhaps now in France or Sweden as well. Canadians’ past opposition to the Iraq war, and their empathy for the Palestinians, earned no reprieve, if we can believe that Islamists were caught plotting to behead their prime minister. Russians have been blown up by Muslim Chechnyans from Moscow to Beslan. India is routinely attacked by Islamic terrorists. An elected Lebanese minister must keep in mind that a Hezbollah or Syrian terrorist — not an Israeli bomb — might kill him if he utters a wrong word. The only mystery here in the United States is which target the jihadists want to destroy first: the Holland Tunnel in New York or the Sears Tower in Chicago.

In nearly all these cases there is a certain sameness: The Koran is quoted as the moral authority of the perpetrators; terrorism is the preferred method of violence; Jews are usually blamed; dozens of rambling complaints are aired, and killers are often considered stateless, at least in the sense that the countries in which they seek shelter or conduct business or find support do not accept culpability for their actions.

Yet the present Western apology to all this is often to deal piecemeal with these perceived Muslim grievances: India, after all, is in Kashmir; Russia is in Chechnya; America is in Iraq, Canada is in Afghanistan; Spain was in Iraq (or rather, still is in Al Andalus); or Israel was in Gaza and Lebanon. Therefore we are to believe that “freedom fighters” commit terror for political purposes of “liberation.” At the most extreme, some think there is absolutely no pattern to global terrorism, and the mere suggestion that there is constitutes “Islamaphobia.”

Here at home, yet another Islamic fanatic conducts an act of al Qaedism in Seattle, and the police worry immediately about the safety of the mosques from which such hatred has in the past often emanated — as if the problem of a Jew being murdered at the Los Angeles airport or a Seattle civic center arises from not protecting mosques, rather than protecting us from what sometimes goes on in mosques.

But then the world is awash with a vicious hatred that we have not seen in our generation: the most lavish film in Turkish history, “Valley of the Wolves,” depicts a Jewish-American harvesting organs at Abu Ghraib in order to sell them; the Palestinian state press regularly denigrates the race and appearance of the American Secretary of State; the U.N. secretary general calls a mistaken Israeli strike on a U.N. post “deliberate,” without a word that his own Blue Helmets have for years watched Hezbollah arm rockets in violation of U.N. resolutions, and Hezbollah’s terrorists routinely hide behind U.N. peacekeepers to ensure impunity while launching missiles.

If you think I exaggerate the bankruptcy of the West or only refer to the serial ravings on the Middle East of Pat Buchanan or Jimmy Carter, consider some of the most recent comments from Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah about Israel: “When the people of this temporary country lose their confidence in their legendary army, the end of this entity will begin [emphasis added].” Then compare Nasrallah’s remarks about the U.S: “To President Bush, Prime Minister Olmert and every other tyrannical aggressor. I want to invite you to do what you want, practice your hostilities. By God, you will not succeed in erasing our memory, our presence or eradicating our strong belief. Your masses will soon waste away, and your days are numbered [emphasis added].”

And finally examine here at home reaction to Hezbollah — which has butchered Americans in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia — from a prominent Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.” And isn’t that the point, after all: the amoral Westerner cannot exercise moral judgment because he no longer has any?

An Arab rights group, between denunciations of Israel and America, is suing its alma mater the United States for not evacuating Arab-Americans quickly enough from Lebanon, despite government warnings of the dangers of going there, and the explicit tactics of Hezbollah, in the manner of Saddam Hussein, of using civilians as human shields in the war it started against Israel.

Demonstrators on behalf of Hezbollah inside the United States — does anyone remember our 241 Marines slaughtered by these cowardly terrorists? — routinely carry placards with the Star of David juxtaposed with Swastikas, as voices praise terrorist killers. Few Arab-American groups these past few days have publicly explained that the sort of violence, tyranny, and lawlessness of the Middle East that drove them to the shores of a compassionate and successful America is best epitomized by the primordial creed of Hezbollah.

There is no need to mention Europe, an entire continent now returning to the cowardice of the 1930s. Its cartoonists are terrified of offending Muslim sensibilities, so they now portray the Jews as Nazis, secure that no offended Israeli terrorist might chop off their heads. The French foreign minister meets with the Iranians to show solidarity with the terrorists who promise to wipe Israel off the map (“In the region there is of course a country such as Iran — a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region”) — and manages to outdo Chamberlain at Munich. One wonders only whether the prime catalyst for such French debasement is worry over oil, terrorists, nukes, unassimilated Arab minorities at home, or the old Gallic Jew-hatred.

It is now a cliché to rant about the spread of postmodernism, cultural relativism, utopian pacifism, and moral equivalence among the affluent and leisured societies of the West. But we are seeing the insidious wages of such pernicious theories as they filter down from our media, universities, and government — and never more so than in the general public’s nonchalance since Hezbollah attacked Israel.

These past few days the inability of millions of Westerners, both here and in Europe, to condemn fascist terrorists who start wars, spread racial hatred, and despise Western democracies is the real story, not the “quarter-ton” Israeli bombs that inadvertently hit civilians in Lebanon who live among rocket launchers that send missiles into Israeli cities and suburbs.

Yes, perhaps Israel should have hit more quickly, harder, and on the ground; yes, it has run an inept public relations campaign; yes, to these criticisms and more. But what is lost sight of is the central moral issue of our times: a humane democracy mired in an asymmetrical war is trying to protect itself against terrorists from the 7th century, while under the scrutiny of a corrupt world that needs oil, is largely anti-Semitic and deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists, and finds psychic enjoyment in seeing successful Western societies under duress.

In short, if we wish to learn what was going on in Europe in 1938, just look around."

— Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
India, after all, is in Kashmir; Russia is in Chechnya; America is in Iraq, Canada is in Afghanistan; Spain was in Iraq (or rather, still is in Al Andalus); or Israel was in Gaza and Lebanon.

This makes the best point for this entire thing being ww3. Everyone is involved with fighting Islam.
 

milkncookies

Inactive
Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.”

Poster Boy for those "progressive" assho%*s who will, at any cost to the U.S., do what it takes to see their Socialist Agenda carried out.
 

ceeblue

Inactive
homepark said:
And finally examine here at home reaction to Hezbollah — which has butchered Americans in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia — from a prominent Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.” And isn’t that the point, after all: the amoral Westerner cannot exercise moral judgment because he no longer has any?
Bingo
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Interesting post, Homepark!

I think many of us have been marveling at the dichotomous transformations in Western society that have put such dangerous rifts in place ... all at a time one would think we would be far closer to being united against enemies that are growing stronger and bolder in their attempts to destroy us.

I wish I could explain it or at least pretend to understand it, but if there is one causal factor in play that seems to be strangling off so much of our ailing cultural body, it has to involve a shame or self-loathing or guilt about ourselves. There seems to be a great deal of interest in self-destructing our Western cultural model ... at a time when there are folks out there on the outside actively trying to do it for us. Thus, many within are eagerly attempting to create a passive, defenseless path for the marauders to come in and put us out of our misery.

There are always a significant percentage of people in a population who would be classed as cynics, etc. And many in any group are susceptible, if not inclined, to suicidal tendencies. The tendency to group think and to be receptive to mind control is a powerful aspect of the human condition. One plus one plus one equals a formula for widespread shame and hatred in need of a target worthy of cultural self-mutilation.

Blah, blah, blah ... wish I had more time to express my views on all of it, but I guess it really doesn't matter.

It's just one of those mysteries that make human conflict inevitable.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
"When I used to read about the 1930s ... I never could quite figure out why, during those bleak years, Western Europeans and those in the United States did not speak out and condemn the growing madness, if only to defend the millennia-long promise of Western liberalism.

What makes him thing people didn't speak out? If you dig for the evidence, you'll find many who did, but in the end their voices were drowned. Google White Rose, for example. They spoke out just as many are now doing, and fifty years from now people will have trouble finding OUR voice in the historical record.

Your voice might make no difference, but you must speak anyway.

bw
 

Bubba Zanetti

Inactive
Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.”

Poster Boy for those "progressive" assho%*s who will, at any cost to the U.S., do what it takes to see their Socialist Agenda carried out.

My new Signature. Thanks!
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Victor Davis Hanson seems to nearly always have a clue; this essay is no exception. That bit about the amoral Westerner is classic, and could be the epitaph for Western Civilization.
 

Zinnia

Constancy
"And finally examine here at home reaction to Hezbollah — which has butchered Americans in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia — from a prominent Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.” And isn’t that the point, after all: the amoral Westerner cannot exercise moral judgment because he no longer has any?"

Along with a couple of others here,I believe the above statement puts it all in a nutshell.
 

Thyme

Under His Wing
JC Refuge said:
Interesting post, Homepark!

I think many of us have been marveling at the dichotomous transformations in Western society that have put such dangerous rifts in place ... all at a time one would think we would be far closer to being united against enemies that are growing stronger and bolder in their attempts to destroy us.

I wish I could explain it or at least pretend to understand it, but if there is one causal factor in play that seems to be strangling off so much of our ailing cultural body, it has to involve a shame or self-loathing or guilt about ourselves. There seems to be a great deal of interest in self-destructing our Western cultural model ... at a time when there are folks out there on the outside actively trying to do it for us. Thus, many within are eagerly attempting to create a passive, defenseless path for the marauders to come in and put us out of our misery.

There are always a significant percentage of people in a population who would be classed as cynics, etc. And many in any group are susceptible, if not inclined, to suicidal tendencies. The tendency to group think and to be receptive to mind control is a powerful aspect of the human condition. One plus one plus one equals a formula for widespread shame and hatred in need of a target worthy of cultural self-mutilation.

Blah, blah, blah ... wish I had more time to express my views on all of it, but I guess it really doesn't matter.

It's just one of those mysteries that make human conflict inevitable.


I cannot express myself as well as many of you, but here is my take and thoughts as to what has happened to this country.

For years my x and I remarked how this country was running on BS and one day it will come to bite us on the A$$. I do believe that day has arrived.
 

Zinnia

Constancy
Thyme-"I cannot express myself as well as many of you, but here is my take and thoughts as to what has happened to this country.

For years my x and I remarked how this country was running on BS and one day it will come to bite us on the A$$. I do believe that day has arrived."

Thyme,I believe you expressed yourself very well.And I agree.
 

bubblehead

Inactive
"Here at home, yet another Islamic fanatic conducts an act of al Qaedism in Seattle, and the police worry immediately about the safety of the mosques from which such hatred has in the past often emanated — as if the problem of a Jew being murdered at the Los Angeles airport or a Seattle civic center arises from not protecting mosques, rather than protecting us from what sometimes goes on in mosques."


Unfortunately, I think these words are prophetic....:sht:

We can't unify and find a way to mitigate the problem, along with thousands of them allowed to live amongst us. It won't be a 'real' problem until Hezbolla or whatever radical islamofascists attacks JSP's en masse on our own soil. Think about how we were pulled into the 2 previous world wars - how will we be brought in this time?
 

INVAR

Sword At-The-Ready
Excellent article Homepark - thanks for posting it.

Indeed, we have embraced madness.

I truly fear - that as the rush for a respite being imposed on Israel deepens, the silent space afterwards is the sound of all of our doom.

Jihadist Islam is the Nazi Reich of our time, hell bent on conquering and to conquer. Annihilating and sacrificing themselves to death in order to destroy us. They are sparking and giving rise to anyone with a pipe bomb and a cause against America.

I'm watching alliances being made by avowed enemies together, with one goal in mind: harm the United States. How long until MS-13 and other Mexican gangs begin being funded and infiltrated with Jihadists for their own conquest of areas of the U.S.?

This is a global war, being waged on us daily - and we do not want to even admit we are in a war.

Most deliberately look the other way and morally equivocate endlessly.

If this were WWII today with all the appeasement monkeys having influence as they do now, the time would be 1946 - and Japan would own the Pacific, Germany would own all of Europe - Britian is destroyed, Russia is in ruins and America is a surrendered cripple, losing arms and legs to Japanese and German occupation in major cities, while they make moves on our farmland.

Of course the very idea will be pooh-poohed by our resident Jihad Collaborators as absurd.

But they are handing militant Islam the victory for them.
 

homepark

Resist
bw said:
What makes him thing people didn't speak out? If you dig for the evidence, you'll find many who did, but in the end their voices were drowned. Google White Rose, for example. They spoke out just as many are now doing, and fifty years from now people will have trouble finding OUR voice in the historical record.

Your voice might make no difference, but you must speak anyway.

bw

That's right. I have not shared this on the board before, but I had relatives living in Beirut prior to their 'civil war'. They were a mix of Eastern Orthodox and Muslims. This was a time when Christians, Jews and Muslims lived there in relative peace and a thriving city.

When the Syrian and Iranian Islamic fascists came in, the civil war broke out. That city that was once considered the Paris of the Middle East, has been in tatters ever since. I don't get to see my cousins much anymore. I have no idea where they ended up. I think some are in Syria and some came back to the States.

One of my Marine buddies was in Beirut shortly before the barracks bombing (by Hezbollah). I worry about him as he came back quite a mess (worse than me via Vietnam). The ferocity and ruthlessness of the Islamists is not to be underestimated. My bud did not take prisoners and would probably have been prosecuted with the current mind set. He still struggles with what he had to do to live.

Trust me when I say that we don't want these people here. My wife gets upset when I tell her that if the alphabets don't deal with the local mosque when TSHTF, I will. The local mosque is being watched for good reason.

Sorry, I'm feeling very down right now about the missing family members and my buddy who is by this time, no doubt drinking 24/7 and living in his truck somewhere (all you have to do is say "Beirut" and he starts to disassociate).
 

Doomer Doug

Deceased
Zionist drivel in a neo con mag. the man has his facts wrong. for instance, the reason the US Marines were killed in Lebanon is REAGAN violated the terms of their deployment. the marines, like the Italians, were PEACEKEEPERS. Reagan and his cronies decided to begin an armed intervention against the Muslims in support of the so called Christians, the ones who butchered 700 old men, women and children in the Palestinian refugee camps. Reagan even ordered the battleship off the coast to shell Muslim positions. So viola, the Muslims hit the marines in the barracks. the guards didn't even have ammo for the M-16's. And this zionist puppet says that this attack was unexpected and not a military strike? You shell us with 16 inch guns from a battleship and we hit you back. People should study the history of what ACTUALLY happened and not the zionist propaganda about it.

I am increasingly dismayed at the extremism by the zionist supporters who see that Israel can do no wrong, even as they slaughter away with US made weapons. And then here in the USA we have the arrogance and stupidity to wonder why the Muslims hate us? Of course they hate us and the reason is we blindly support Israel and give them the weapons to kill Muslims.

As to the invasion of Muslims into the West. Lay that one on the West. It is the West who invited Muslims in so they could be cheap labor. I do not consider myself an "appeaser" as defined by many here at TB2K. I consider myself a populist American constitutionalist. We have NO BUSINESS in the MidEast at all. We have NO BUSINESS doing the Imperial rome gig.

Let this Neo Con babble all he wants. It is the sound of a tumbleweed cracking and popping in the fire of ilrelevance. The day is coming when the USA will collapse and America will be restored in all its glorious constitutional glory. Or we will be overwhelmed by the illegals and the NWO crowd.

It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore. The Jews have become Nazis and I seem to be one of the few who sees it or even cares. :ld:

this should set off a firestorm of comment. :lol:
 

homepark

Resist
"It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore."

Perhaps then, you should avoid threads you don't like instead of trolling.
 

INVAR

Sword At-The-Ready
Doomer Doug said:
As to the invasion of Muslims into the West. Lay that one on the West. ....It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore. The Jews have become Nazis and I seem to be one of the few who sees it or even cares.

As is usual with the clueless appeasement bunch or simply the totally misguided - they always end up blaming America and the West for the entirety of global problems...that somehow, we must have PROVOKED the Jihadists to target us and Israeli's for attack and extermination.

I mean by such logic, what exactly did the Jews do to provoke the Nazis to exterminate six million of them? Was it justified?

This is the madness the articles author is addressing; the self loathing or politically motivated slam of our war efforts and it is prevalent in almost every walk of society by the tired and clueless affluents who think a retreat of America and the West into itself will solve all the problems in the world.

But the revealing comment is the one that reveals that Doug sees the Jews as the Nazis, despite the comments of Ahmedinejad, Nasarella and decades of Islamic terror acts and propaganda that mimics verbatim the hate fervor the Brownshirts in Germany whipped up against the Jews in the 30's.

Doug gladly takes the side of the Jihadists - by seeing the Jews exactly the same way the Jihadists view them.

Shall we begin building the extermination camps for the evil Jewish nazis Doug?

And you call yourself a patriot?

I sure as hell wouldn't want you anywhere near my position - you might get all confused about who the bad guys are and shoot us in the back.
 

mcchrystal

Inactive
Dingell Actually Said...

milkncookies said:
Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.”

Poster Boy for those "progressive" assho%*s who will, at any cost to the U.S., do what it takes to see their Socialist Agenda carried out.

Hold on a minute, Pardner.

Dingell was indicating his neutrality. You didn't post the entirety of his remarks,
nor did any number of blogs. Here's the entirety of what he said:

"I don't take sides for or against Hezbollah; I don't take sides for or against Israel." Asked, "You're not against Hezbollah?" Dingell answers, "No, I happen to be— against violence, I think the United States has to bring resolution to this matter. Now, I condemn Hezbollah as does everybody else, for the violence. "

I'm a conservative, not a liberal. I think, though, that we have to be MORE
truthful about what people say. I refuse to be a cheerleader without knowing
ALL of the facts.

Now, before anyone accuses me of being a Diaper-head-hugger, it is my profound
belief that Islam is incompatible with human life and the survival of our species.

Period.

Paragraph.

-Steve in Reno
 

Caplock50

I am the Winter Warrior
"It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore. The Jews have become Nazis and I seem to be one of the few who sees it or even cares."

Well, maybe you should read the quaran, and study on it a bit. Then, maybe, you can figure out why so many of us are so deeply into backing Israel and looking to defend ourselves from the islamics here.
 

INVAR

Sword At-The-Ready
Should we have championed our neutrality in WWII?

How does this sound in light of the history we now know?

"I don't take sides for or against the Nazis; I don't take sides for or against Britain."

Asked, "You're not against Hitler?" Dingell answers, "No, I happen to be— against violence, I think the United States has to bring resolution to this matter. Now, I condemn Hitler as does everybody else, for the violence. "

Pure madness.

It's like saying "I'm not against mass murdering serial killers, I am just against violence in any form - no matter who does it. Whether it's the cops taking down a mass murdering serial killer, or the serial killer."

"Violence just begets more violence. If we don't enact violence against mass-murdering serial killers, then mass murdering serial killers will not be violent"

Absolute MADNESS.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Doug, you ARE old enough to know better than to call what Israel is doing right now slaughter.

Slaughter is what happened in Viet Nam in many areas.

Slaughter is what happened on Iwo, and on most SoPacific Islands.

Israel has been MUCH more careful than, say, Allied soldiers going hedgerow to hedgerow during the first few days after Normandy.

BY any rational measure the Israeli actions have been REDICULOUSLY RESTRAINED.


c
 

homepark

Resist
I do know a door gunner in Nam who stopped firing in one firefight because it was so one sided. Even though their orders were to search and destroy, even though the targets were clearly NVA regulars. I also know other Vets who shot children because they were being sent forward with satchel charges and grenades by the VC.

I was almost killed one night by an American rocket round (one of about a dozen that time). It was not friendly fire. Someone decided to make some money on the black market. I still have the scars from that.

People, if there is a battle coming your way, either leave or pick a side to fight with.
 

Peachy2K

Veteran Member
The Muslims will never adopt democracy - and if they do they will just vote in their religious form of government - we should split up Iraq into pieces and be done with it - we are in a never ending quagmire over there. The problem is that they are also taking over Europe by propogation. So either the natives start reproducing or grow some cahones and kick them out. We are tilting at windmills here folks - we got to secure our borders, start drilling all of our coastal areas, and write off the muslim lands forever - and begin containment excersizes simiilar to the Cold war approach. Instead of Aztlan being handed over by default to the Mexicans - give the Jews a new homeland on the border -they know how to build a fence and man it.
 

Reborn

Seeking Aslan's Country
Another article that says it all for those who understand the times we are living in.
Thanks Homepark.
 
This is a seriously weird thread.

Easy on Doug, he's second or third tier on the defense.

All this shit will be someone else's fault, buncha tough guys are stirring up the pot, stuff will get hairy somwhere over there. Then later on "if it gets over here" and be at the front door, Doug will hold his own. So go easy.

To the dismay of most peace loving individuals, it's getting to the point where there's no longer a middle ground. So as a practical measure, let's hope the "individual," is a good shot.

They've given us an "either or" decision to make (either worship through Islam, or else), I'm choosing the "or" part.

Now I'm wondering if they'll drop me and my gear somewhere up front . I'd like to get a few off - and thus - off a few of those 250 million who'd like me and mine to become them and theirs - or else.

Strange Days Indeed
 

data junkie

Membership Revoked
Doomer Doug said:
Zionist drivel in a neo con mag. the man has his facts wrong. for instance, the reason the US Marines were killed in Lebanon is REAGAN violated the terms of their deployment. the marines, like the Italians, were PEACEKEEPERS. Reagan and his cronies decided to begin an armed intervention against the Muslims in support of the so called Christians, the ones who butchered 700 old men, women and children in the Palestinian refugee camps. Reagan even ordered the battleship off the coast to shell Muslim positions. So viola, the Muslims hit the marines in the barracks. the guards didn't even have ammo for the M-16's. And this zionist puppet says that this attack was unexpected and not a military strike? You shell us with 16 inch guns from a battleship and we hit you back. People should study the history of what ACTUALLY happened and not the zionist propaganda about it.

I am increasingly dismayed at the extremism by the zionist supporters who see that Israel can do no wrong, even as they slaughter away with US made weapons. And then here in the USA we have the arrogance and stupidity to wonder why the Muslims hate us? Of course they hate us and the reason is we blindly support Israel and give them the weapons to kill Muslims.

As to the invasion of Muslims into the West. Lay that one on the West. It is the West who invited Muslims in so they could be cheap labor. I do not consider myself an "appeaser" as defined by many here at TB2K. I consider myself a populist American constitutionalist. We have NO BUSINESS in the MidEast at all. We have NO BUSINESS doing the Imperial rome gig.

Let this Neo Con babble all he wants. It is the sound of a tumbleweed cracking and popping in the fire of ilrelevance. The day is coming when the USA will collapse and America will be restored in all its glorious constitutional glory. Or we will be overwhelmed by the illegals and the NWO crowd.

It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore. The Jews have become Nazis and I seem to be one of the few who sees it or even cares. :ld:

this should set off a firestorm of comment. :lol:

That's a load of crap and you know it Doug. The reason our gunships fired was because our troops were being overrun. We had 6 marines killed by the Druze and Muslim militias encroaching on our boundary and lobbing mortars and rockets up our yin yang. We had within the terms of every agreement with the government of Lebanon the right for our Marines to friggin' defend themselves, so quit playing the forum. Those militias were composed of PLO and Syrians with Russian arms. They were also overrunning the Lebanese army there, and so our returning fire helped to save that army and thereby keep that government in power, which was a mission objective. The fact that the Lebanese people elected a president who happened to be Christian is irrelevant.

As you know so much about history, how about explaining to the board just why those militias were active in that zone....I'll tell you why...it was because Israel had withdrawn from the area, despite their not being required to yet because the peace treaty they signed with Lebanon established that their withdrawal was not required until Syria first withdrew. Still, Israel kindly bowed out once it became apparent that Syria would never budge anyway, and so the militias moved in and started dogging it out to try and gain control of the Beirut airport and adjacent mountains as part of their run at trying to overthrow the Lebanese government and establish their own little dictatorship.

The barracks likely would not have been bombed if we'd not pulled a weapon on the IDF when they tried to enter the airport perimeter early on, as those IDF tanks could have easily prevented the suicide truck bomb. So much for your 'zionist puppet' theory...:rolleyes:
 

nanna

Devil's Advocate
homepark said:
"It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore."

Perhaps then, you should avoid threads you don't like instead of trolling.


Generally I agree with Doug.

And, homepark, perhaps you should respect the opinions of others, if you wish them to respect yours, rather than labeling them as trolls or whatever.

:kaid: :kaid: :kaid:



nanna
 

homepark

Resist
nanna said:
Generally I agree with Doug.

And, homepark, perhaps you should respect the opinions of others, if you wish them to respect yours, rather than labeling them as trolls or whatever.

:kaid: :kaid: :kaid:



nanna

I guess I missed the respect part of Doug's post. Perhaps you can point that out to the rest of us.

You might notice that I did not berate his opinion. It was his behavior that I found objectionable.
 

tosca

Inactive
I bet the good ole USA ends up sending so much

aid that we literally pay for this entire episode. Duh. We need money at home. We are already giving Lebanon 1.5 Billion a year and now more funding for aid and then in the future more aid for rebuilding. I wish we would begin funding our needs at home and begin to drill our own oil/develop alternative fuel/energy sources; and get the hell out of mid-east affairs. However I do feel that Iran needs to be reigned in before we make ourselves independent of the need for MID Eastern Oil!
 

nanna

Devil's Advocate
Doomer Doug said:
Zionist drivel in a neo con mag. the man has his facts wrong. for instance, the reason the US Marines were killed in Lebanon is REAGAN violated the terms of their deployment. the marines, like the Italians, were PEACEKEEPERS. Reagan and his cronies decided to begin an armed intervention against the Muslims in support of the so called Christians, the ones who butchered 700 old men, women and children in the Palestinian refugee camps. Reagan even ordered the battleship off the coast to shell Muslim positions. So viola, the Muslims hit the marines in the barracks. the guards didn't even have ammo for the M-16's. And this zionist puppet says that this attack was unexpected and not a military strike? You shell us with 16 inch guns from a battleship and we hit you back. People should study the history of what ACTUALLY happened and not the zionist propaganda about it.

I am increasingly dismayed at the extremism by the zionist supporters who see that Israel can do no wrong, even as they slaughter away with US made weapons. And then here in the USA we have the arrogance and stupidity to wonder why the Muslims hate us? Of course they hate us and the reason is we blindly support Israel and give them the weapons to kill Muslims.

As to the invasion of Muslims into the West. Lay that one on the West. It is the West who invited Muslims in so they could be cheap labor. I do not consider myself an "appeaser" as defined by many here at TB2K. I consider myself a populist American constitutionalist. We have NO BUSINESS in the MidEast at all. We have NO BUSINESS doing the Imperial rome gig.

Let this Neo Con babble all he wants. It is the sound of a tumbleweed cracking and popping in the fire of ilrelevance. The day is coming when the USA will collapse and America will be restored in all its glorious constitutional glory. Or we will be overwhelmed by the illegals and the NWO crowd.

It is just too much for an American Patriot like me to read this zionist crap anymore. The Jews have become Nazis and I seem to be one of the few who sees it or even cares. :ld:

this should set off a firestorm of comment. :lol:



It was his behavior that I found objectionable.



It seems to me that Doug is commenting on the article and what is said in the article, and stating his opinion regarding same. You, on the other hand, are commenting on Doug, by labeling him as a troll.

Aside from disagreeing with him, what part of his behavior did you find objectionable?



nanna
 

Doomer Doug

Deceased
Sheesh :lol:
Well, the reason the arabs/islamics hate us is due to the FACT we blindly support Israel. This is a matter of political, religious and economic reality. Pure and simple. We supply the bulk of the weapons Israel uses. Pure and Simple. we prop up their economy and run interference for them in the UN. Pure and Simple. And we do that primarily due to the lobbying the Israel lobby does in our congress and the blind support of Israel by Christian fundamentalist like Pastor Hagee of San Antonio for instance. Aside from the fact they are using Old Testament texts out of context and applying them to a modern situation, they are simply WRONG about modern Israel being ancient Israel.

Further, it is a FACT modern Israel is using Nazi techniques in their war making. And I do find it ironic that holocaust survivors have created a state using the combat techniques of their oppressors. For instance, a while back Israel decided to 'take out" a palestinan terrorist. The man was living in an apartment building, much like mine. Israel used an AMERICAN SUPPLIED APACHE HELICOPTER AND AN AMERICAN SUPPLIED HELLFIRE MISSILE to do it. They launched this missile into an apartment building and killed several innocent women and children. They blew up several apartments and "got" the terrorist. Now my point is this: exactly how is this attack not a terror attack. And when you factor in the USA logistic support for it how can the Arabs not make the direct link to the USA.

It is a FACT Israel studied the Nazi combat techniques used in suppressing the Warsaw ghetto as a model for their attacks on the Jenin refugee camp. These are facts. And so I say again modern Israel has become Nazis in the sense they are using the same combat techniques.

Yes, I have read about the history of Islam and the idea they never had an advanced culture of an empire is ridiculous. Prior to Genhis Khan Baghdad was THE center of culture and learning west of China. which the mongols also gutted.

What we are witnessing is an internal civil war among Islam and its various sects.

And I will say again, we have NO business being involved in it.

From a military standpoint what Israel has done and is doing in Lebanon is a war crime; namely, the gutting of infrastucture. Israel is draining the sea to kill the fish. You may agree or disagree with me on that. However, you must understand the USA is going to suffer savage results for its helping of Israel to do that.

PUll out and let them sort it out. We are in the period in August 39 between Hitler stalin signing the pact and the invasion of Poland. Look out
 

MGT

Senior Member
Excellent article and I must say, this is the most fascinating thread I have read on here in ages!
 

Dozdoats

Deceased
Y'all want a clue? OK, here's one, like it or not.

War has evolved into a new generation. We helped it evolve in Dresden and Hiroshima and nameless hamlets all over Vietnam and everywhere we have planted a combat boot since at least World War Two. War is a different sort of thing now.

"They" kill our civilians. and everybody yells that it ain't right.

"We" kill their civilians, and it's just collateral damage, no harm no foul.

Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways. If ANY civilians are legitimate targets, either when deliberately targeted or as mere collateral damage, then ALL civilians are legitimate targets. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. "You" pay taxes, you vote, YOU support the war machine, you are PART of the war machine and YOU ARE A TARGET. "They" let rockets be launched from their neighborhoods, they support the folks who launch the rockets, THEY ARE TARGETS. Better get used to the idea. Because you ARE a target, no matter who you are, no matter where you are, no matter what you believe, you are a target for SOMEBODY.

The argument for legitimacy still goes on, but it is like the argument about who is on God's side. Everybody claims God is on their side, but nobody seems to worry about being on God's side. Everybody claims they have every right to kill their enemies, while their enemies claim the same right to kill them. Everyone claims that legitimacy is on their side, nobody seems to worry a whole lot about being on legitimacy's side.

Legitimacy means killing combatants, PERIOD. You start killing on a "to whom it may concern" basis, and you can bet you are going to get the same approach handed back to you in spades. We used to try to teach that the best weapon to use was the most controllable, the most selective, the most accurate, the most discriminating. That approach died in the "kill 'em all let God sort 'em out" mindset that came to prevail the first time we got our collective nose bloodied, the first time we discovered it was too hard to get down on the local level and root out the bad guys who needed killing and just kill them. We lost it when we had officers making pronouncements on teevee saying, as they Zippoed grass huts in the background, "This village had to be destroyed in order to save it." We lost it when the B52s commenced to arclight villages instead of having someone do the hard dirty work of figuring out who the actual problem people were and carefully killing them, just them.

Well, it has come full circle now. By our own extended logic we are now targets too. Get used to the idea, whether you like it or not. Because the rest of the world has.

You want to claim moral superiority, the only way to do it is to act with moral superiority. Indiscriminately killing civilians, whether in Beiruit, Baghdad or New York, is not a morally superior act. It's time to realize that fact and learn to live with it if you aren't willing to change it.

dd
 

homepark

Resist
Dozdoats, your arguments are bull$hit.

There is a difference between targeting civilians and collatoral damage. It is a set of values. Even in Vietnam we had 'fire bases', which were deliberately away from civilian areas. The enemy then, as in this case today, liked to hide behind women and children and launch their attacks from established villages. At least the VC targeted soldiers. Not the case today.

In war time, you do what is necessary. It is not always what is 'right'. Only folks who sit in the relative safety of their lounge chairs have the privilege of being so sanctimonious.

Civilians always get killed in wars. Some deliberately target civilians. Some things are worth fighting for. In no case have I ever heard of a polite war fought by Bridge Club rules. The end result is that people get killed. Your job is to not be one of them. It is that simple.

I have no qualms at all, and see absolutely no hypocrisy in stating that Islamic Fascism needs to be destroyed, which at this time includes several groups of people including Hezbollah. They have stated openly and repeatedly that they wish to kill my family, my self, my country.

War is not some abstract thing I have read about. I have seen up close and personal the damage that is done. Things are rarely black and white, but my survival as opposed to someone else's whose intention is to kill me, is.

Self defense is a God given right. I intend to exercise it when necessary.
 

Maher

Inactive
I totally agree with the author and with INVAR. Doug, I think you seriously need to rethink your position. I didn't know you were anti-Semitic.
 

jlee

Inactive
If we "blindly supported Israel," Doug, we wouldn't have been compelling them to give up land for "peace" for the past several years, and we wouldn't be trying to institute a cease-fire in Lebanon before Israel finishes flattening Hezbollah.

I think Maher got it right.
 
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