PREPS: Part 33.......Nuclear preparation

This seems like a good time to add this to the preps thread since it is on many peoples minds these days. We can do chemical and biological threads later.

How about your thoughts and experience with preps for nuclear fallout. We have seen some great threads here and it would be good to have it all in one easy to find place. I agree that 'what do do when a nuclear disaster is imminent' is great. But, I want YOUR ideas and thoughts. Your plans. Real world exerience in preparing for this. Help for those of us that aren't builders or diggers.

#1 Fallout shelter for the non-carpenters. what about roofing? What is safe in terms of weight etc. What is absolutely required and what is optional? Pictures are great but well versed directions are welcomed too.

#2 Supplies needed

#3 The # hours needed to stay in a shelter.

#4 Do you need an air source or is the 'maze door' adequate? What about air itself? Is this radioactive?

Thanks for starting this thread because this is something I would really like to know about as of right now, I don't have a clue. I do have my plastic and duct tape.

The best place to go is www.ki4u.com. Shane has it all laid out.

oldlady....if you are really old, make a will and forget it

Just kidding.....most folks will survive, and who wants to be sick for months on end from radiation? Not me.

If you have kids and/or grandkids home, start with shane's link on what to do if there are only three days to a nuke disaster. Order ki pills today and get the basement shelter made. I assume you have food, water, etc already.

Personally, I have found J Allan South's book " The Sense of Survival" to be more helpful on nukes and shelters than Kearney. Better diagrams and explanations for dummies. I got it at EE a while back: www.beprepared.com

Lilrose....you've really done a marvelous job on the prep threads.....

Thanks Lynnie....I guess my biggest concern is not having a basement. More of us DON"T have basements than folks who do. This makes a shelter extremely difficult. I have the pills and plenty of food and water....it is the shelter that has me stumped.

I am hoping those with experience of prepping for this event with out a basement will chime in.

I posted this information on the other nuke prep thread, too.

Miso for radiation and sea vegetables.

http://www.radiationdetox.com/depleted-uranium-detox.htm

http://www.macrobiotic.org/Miso.htm

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Miso

http://www.prevmedctr.org/library/lib_biowisdom_jack.asp

http://www.hatcho-miso.co.jp/org/index-j.html

Miso keeps very well and tastes good.

spinner

Bruce Beach CD

Just thought I would offer for any who haven't got one. I would be glad to send one to anyone who still needs/wants one. Just PM me your address. It's pretty big so it has to go snail mail.
Nancy

Lilrose.....


if you are built on a concrete slab, you can turn part of one room into a shelter, easily. I would imagine it would be hard to give up a room; it is a real pain just giving up part of the basement. But in a world full of nukes you might want to consider it.

One of my many bugouts and bottle of KI. Hats off to Shane for offering his move 'em out KI special to members here.

I don't have a basement either. As for food, water and pills, I am set nicely for myself and the dog, it's the other people in my family I am worried about, they just will not prep.

I need to know how to turn one of my rooms into a shelter.

Lynnie as for being old, I am old. I just turned 52 last week but I still have a few decades left in me. Thanks for the link to Shanes website.

Hey! I am 51 and you are not old yet!!!!

This is a good link:

http://www.theblastshelter.com/


another link:

http://www.survivalring.org/shelter05.pdf

( block basement shelter)

This is decidedly imperfect, but here's my plan for fallout sheltering in a split entry house:

I've decided which corner is the best, although that room has the disadvantage of having a window. If time permits, I would board up the window. If time did not permit, I would use another room without quite as much shielding, but with no window. Then, I would use household goods for shielding.

There is a sturdy desk in the preferred room, which could be loaded with a few feet of boxes containing mostly paper. Other heavy objects could be placed on the floor above.

Because of the geometry of this spot, less shielding would be needed on the exposed sides. If there was water pressure, the first layer would be containers filled with water. Beyond that, it wouldn't be too difficult to arrange at least 10 feet of furniture and other household objects on each side.

If time permits, I would add additional shielding outside, either by berming dirt against the wall, and/or parking a vehicle next to that wall.

During the heaviest radiation levels, I would make sure that all of us are close together, to provide additional shielding. I would arrange it so that I provided shielding to my wife and son, more so than them providing shielding for me. I would do this partly out of galantry, but also because there are more deliterious effects to women and children than there are to men. The human body is mostly water. So if you have a body between you and the radiation, that's equivalent to a foot or so of water, which would provide somewhat significant protection.

good looking cave (mineshaft?). here, i lightened it up a bit:

I have a question. Which family is safer:


Family A: lives in an average, one story house on a slab foundation about 10 miles east of the point of detonation; or


Family B: lives in a single wide trailer 50 feet long about 60 miles east of the point of detonation.


I have a specific reason for asking the question, which is personal, but important to my extended family.

Barry Natchitoches,
Family B has more than enough time to walk to the side of the fallout path to get out of harms way, and then check back in 2 to 3 weeks.
Family A might have an hour to run through the streets filled with panic stricken people, except for the possibility that the device may have been large enough that the pressure wave destroyed their house anyway. In that case the only option (if alive) is to run.

I would rather be at point "B".

Loup Garou

Christian for Israel said:

good looking cave (mineshaft?). here, i lightened it up a bit:

Click to expand...

It's a natural cave, although it looks like rather uniform. The height is about the only problem which is about 5' -6" inches at best. If I had to spend a lot of time there, I would have to dig out below to create a place to stand up straight or I would go nuts. I spent several hours in there and it got old quick. A week + would be unbearable stooped over.

I went to a cave that I hopped as a kid, and the owner has gotten old and mean, barred it up and wont let anybody on his property. But I do have a close friend that has over 10 caves on his property that are all unmarked. At least we haven't been able to find anything public on them and they have small hidden openings. I wish I had my own personal cave, but access to one will do.

Water also makes an effective rad shield.
I got 2 24" deep wading pools.
some steel racking to support it,
set up the rack, putting 1 shelf level at 4 ft off the floor, and the other one at 6 ft.
set up a pool on each rack level
run a hose from the nearest faucet, and fill each pool to 18" depth.

the combined 36" depth should be enough protection.

side-protection is still required, based on the location of the setup (below ground level, etc

LoupGarou,


"Fallout path"?


What is that?


Actually, I'm thinking of my sister and brother in law, who own a suburban home and a trailer in the rural "x-burbs" about 50 miles from a logical nuclear target.


But there is no shelter anywhere. I am assuming they would either have to shelter in place in the suburban home, which is better built but only 10 miles east of the target, or else the trailer, which is not as well built, but is 50 miles east of the target?


In other words, what is better, average quality construction relatively close to the site, or flimsy construction further away from the target?

MY question is......if you are about 110 to 140 miles south east of one of the target cities, will the fall out effect you and how bad will it be?

Brenda

m801 said:

Water also makes an effective rad shield.
I got 2 24" deep wading pools.
some steel racking to support it,
set up the rack, putting 1 shelf level at 4 ft off the floor, and the other one at 6 ft.
set up a pool on each rack level
run a hose from the nearest faucet, and fill each pool to 18" depth.

the combined 36" depth should be enough protection.

side-protection is still required, based on the location of the setup (below ground level, etc

Click to expand...

Your post got me to thinking of a possibility here at our place and I'd like to hear opinions as to the practical use of the following:

We are in a single story brick house over a cement slab with aprox. 4 ft. between the slab and the bottom of the house. We have a king size water bed in our bedroom which is at the end of the house.
If we got a large peice of plywood to rest over the frame of the water bed to then add boxes of stuff on top of that, and built up around the sides of the area directly under the floor where the bed is, would this be a practical and useful shelter?
I need answers because if it's a possible effective shelter, I will go ahead and buy the plywood and begin to store water and food under there and build up the sides of the shelter with something like shelves of my hundreds of bottled water that I have saved.
But I do not want to waste my time and energy if it's not going to work.

BTW, we are only in danger if Charlotte N.C. got hit, and the winds were coming up from the south because we are 35-40 minutes north of Charlotte.

This is a cute thread, discussing room conversions and caves and such.

Soooo whatcha gonna do when the walking dead and wounded smell your cookin?



And then...your hot lookin' neighbor chic remembers you have preps and she shows up for dinner.

If you havea large back yard; could you dig out a trench and pack sandbags on top and around it? Just tell the neighbors you're putting in new leach lines or a lap pool. If you have a concrete patio, what about digging underneath it?

Or dig out part of the ground in the back yard; put concrete blocks around it and pack with sandbagss and soil. The nosy neighbor's will think you are strange...but....Well, you might want to check out Shane's site.........

"If we got a large peice of plywood to rest over the frame of the water bed to then add boxes of stuff on top of that, and built up around the sides of the area directly under the floor where the bed is, would this be a practical and useful shelter?"

The waterbed is an excellent layer of shielding. It is probably not enough however, and the wood frame would not hold up the amount of weight to get to a PF of 1000 ( ideal) or even 200.

I would be ready with 3/4 inch plywood, and maybe cinderblocks, to build a wall of support next to the bed. Or steel beams. Something besides a wooden bed frame.

Yes, building up those sides underneath is a great idea. Go for three feet of sand or the equivalent in mass ( 100 lbs/cubic foot). Don't forget water, nukalert, potty, and a box in the house ready to grab, with food and flashlights and bedding, etc.

This document describes the assembly of a fallout shelter consisting of 4x8x16 nominal solid concrete blocks, 3/8” plywood, ¾” plywood, 2x8 or 2x10 rafters, and 3/8” x 4” angle iron. The size as designed will be approximately 6’ 6” x 10’ 5” inside, height to be determined by builder and is relatively independent of other design parameters. This width gives enough room to build a platform across one end for a mattress up to queen size, with plenty of storage underneath. The 10’ 5” length can be easily increased; the 6’6” width should not be changed without increasing the dimensions of the rafters or decreasing their spacing. The PF of the shelter should be about 100 for the walls and 40 for the roof, based on 16” thick walls and 12” thick roof if concrete or 16” if sand.

Start by laying out on a suitable surface, either a concrete slab or well packed and level dirt, a rectangle 6’ 6” by 10’ 5”. Stack a row of blocks around this rectangle forming a wall 8” wide. In the short end that is to be used as a doorway, the center three blocks are to be used as the door. If the three blocks are not in the center, remove four blocks and put two half blocks on the sides of the gap. Replace the three blocks and give them each a slight gap, perhaps ¼”, so they can be easily removed and replaced, it may be necessary to fudge the long walls slightly to ensure this gap. Once completed, stack another row of blocks around the outside of the first row to form a wall 16” wide, staggering the joints by 8”, when you get to the doorway, extend the wall into the doorway by half a block on each side, leaving a two block gap, again you may have to use half blocks to do this. This leaves an opening three blocks wide on the inside wall and two blocks wide on the outside wall with each side staggered by 8”. On any layer that needs half blocks; the next layer will not need them. Sweep off any bits of loose concrete and dirt, then stack more blocks on the inside row, staggering these over the joints below them. Continue with blocks on the outside, again staggering them from the joints below and in the inside row. If you are doing this right, every joint is staggered from those above/below and inside/outside. After two rows are completed, place pieces of 3/8” plywood ripped to 15” by 8 feet (3 from a sheet) on top of the rows of blocks, you will need 5 of these strips for each layer. Begin at a corner away from the doorway and place the first piece along the long wall. Continue with another piece toward the front and cut it off at the end of the wall, take the leftover and cover the short wall to the doorway and trim it off, matching the stagger of the doorway blocks. Return to the rear short wall and place a strip from the starting corner across the rear wall and trim. Place another strip along the second long wall and finish similar to the first long wall. The plywood strips will serve to bind the blocks together without the mess, skill, time, and permanency of mortar. Now add another two layers of blocks, staggering the joints as before. Place plywood strips over these blocks, but this time start at the doorway, covering the corners with the first partial strips so as to overlap the joints of the first layer of plywood. Continue rearward with a full 8’ strip of plywood on both long walls, then a strip on the second long wall and trim, making sure this joint overlaps the lower joint. Continue with a full 8’ piece along the rear wall and trim. Fill in the remainder with a trim piece.

Continue this process, staggering both the block joints above/beside each other and the plywood joints above/below and lapping the corners, until you have reached the top of the doorway, which should have a layer of plywood. Cut (or have cut when you buy it) two lengths of angle iron 3/8” thick by 4” legs, approximately 5’ long. Place these over the doorway with the leg of the angle up, you will need to trim the sides of the plywood to accommodate the angle iron. Continue with the block stacking normally until you reach the angle iron over the doorway, which will accommodate six blocks placed side by side (at right angles to the normal stacking), this forms the lintel of the doorway. You will need two half blocks on either the inside or outside row. Continue with the next layer of blocks, but use full blocks stacked normally to bridge the doorway, you will not need half blocks from this point on, it is now the same as the rear wall.

After you have reached the desired height, be sure you finish with a single layer of blocks over the last layer of plywood. You are now ready to build the roof sections. Take two 8’ lengths of 2x8, two pieces of the same wood 3’9” long and nail together into a 4’ x 8’ rectangle. Cut three pieces 7’9” long and nail inside the rectangle at equal spacing, about 10” between each. Place a 4’x 8’ sheet of ¾” plywood over this rectangle and nail into place with a few nails for positioning. You will need a drill or screw gun for the next step, you will be inserting screws every 3” along every edge and every cross piece. This strength is necessary because the plywood will be underneath the rafters and all the weight of the upper shielding will be resting on it, trying to pull it loose from the rafters. You will need to build three of these sections for a 10’ long shelter, add another for each 4’ additional length. Place the sections on top of the walls, centered in each direction. Nail the sections together so they do not shift apart. Tape over the seams with duct tape or similar to avoid having sand fall into the shelter. Cut 16” strips of ¾” plywood and nail around the sides of the roof sections to form a box 16” deep, in the corners place an 8” strip of 2x2 or 2x4 to nail both pieces of plywood. You can now start shoveling sand into the roof section; you will need about 5 cubic yards to fill the roof of a 6’ 8” x 10’ 5” shelter.

For an alternative roof construction, use 6-2x8, spaced equally with about 7-3/4’ between them. Lay two layers of solid 4x8x16 blocks between the boards and finish with another layer of blocks above the boards, overlapping the gaps in the lower layers. This has the advantage of easier filling than shovelfuls of sand, but the blocks will cost more than sand.

A third possibility, obtain enough 55 gallon plastic drums to cover the roof, using the plywood on top of the rafters and building up a row of blocks around the roof sections to shield the open edges. Place the barrels closely together, build a plywood wall around them or wrap them with heavy tarps, then fill the spaces between the drums with sand; you will need a lot less sand this way. The drums will be filled with water, of course. If you use clean drums and good water, you will have a good supply for later, after you don’t need so much shielding on the roof. You could also use 5 or 6 gallon buckets in two layers, filling the bottom layer with water and snapping on the lids, then stacking and filling the upper layer, then filling the gaps with sand. Also consider building what amounts to a large deep waterbed, 2-3 feet deep, sides well braced, and a pool liner or other heavy plastic sheet inside. Cover the ‘pool’ when filled or the fallout that gets into the water will simply fall to the bottom, negating the shielding effect of the water. All of the water methods have a distinct advantage in filling and emptying with hoses compared to buying and shoveling tons of sand.

Ventilation is an issue that must be addressed. This is one way to provide fresh air without sacrificing much shielding. Cut a 2’-3’ length of 3” PVC or ABS pipe, drill or saw a suitable hole through the side wall of the ¾” plywood just above the 2x8 rafters, put an elbow on one end of the pipe, push it through the hole until the elbow is against the side of the roof, place another elbow on the pipe, and mark and drill another hole in the roof plywood then cut and attach a piece of pipe to just go through the hole. Make sure it is high enough to rest on the 2x8 rafters to avoid notching them. The elbow on the outside of the pipe should point down to avoid fallout entering the pipe. On the inside, fasten a small 12VDC muffin fan. Seal around the holes to avoid sand leaking through. Build another vent with a fan on the other end of the shelter, above the toilet facilities, and consider putting a curtain around the toilet, this will help with the smell considerably.



I have not calculated the load factors for the mentioned board sizes, nor will I warrant those calculations when completed, as I am not certified for that work. My figures come from the WWPA and APA websites and other sources, along with some seat-of-the-pants guessing.

Quick question on iodine. Does anyone have info on how much Lugols to use? I can find it on potassium iodide, but if I don't have that on hand how much lugols to take.

Holy old threads Batman!

Shane's site provides a great primer on iodine use, and back-up alternative sources.

It is the ki site mentioned above...

For anyone new to the topic, read my sig line linked short article below "The Good News.." and then the free 8-page "What To Do If..." guide.

Embracing and then sharing them widely will do the most good for the most people, IMO.

- Shane

Lugols - Hard to Stomach

KerryAnn said:

Quick question on iodine. Does anyone have info on how much Lugols to use? I can find it on potassium iodide, but if I don't have that on hand how much lugols to take.

Click to expand...

My understanding is Lugols can be very irritating to the stomach and people can only handle it for a few days before they wish they had something else. One has to be careful with iodine tinctures (not the topical antiseptic kind but the oral ones) with toxicity. Iodine, itself (not KI) is a confirmed reproductive hazard according to WISER (HazMat Emergency Response Software) on my Palm PDA.

KI is not that expensive and will last longer than Lugols and can be transported much easier. Do check out Shane's website.

Profit of Doom said:

Dry-stacked concrete fallout shelter​

Click to expand...

BTW, if any oil field drilling in your neck of the woods, you might want to look into getting sacks of 'barite' (Barium Sulfate) the weighting material used in drilling fluids mud. It comes dry in small 100# sacks, is very dense due to its relatively high specific gravity (4.5), stacks well and, amazingly, is pound for pound better than lead at attenuating (absorbing) gamma radiation from Cesium (Cs-137) source. You may even of had to drink some for x-raying of your GI tract as the pharmaceutical grade "high purity" barite is used as an X-ray contrast medium. It is also added into concrete walls in nuclear facilities to better harden them from radiation penetration.

Don't know what they go for these days, but used to be well under $10 a sack when I was in the 'awl bidness'.

- Shane

I'm definitely going to get some KI, my thought process was the 'what if' between now and when it arrives. LOL

check out this thread, with the links in Zulu's posts. I printed them out and did some research, his info is spot on.

AWESOME REFERENCE MATERIALS!!!

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2810856#post2810856

BTTT

.


Tribulation Protection - The Blood of the Lamb

http://www.call2holiness.org/TribulationProtection/TribulationProtection.htm



To The Refuges On Wings of Eagles

http://www.call2holiness.org/RefugesonWings/RefugesonWings.htm

my self, and all of my children, are allergic to the ki pills, they are iodine, and we are all highly allgergic.

fallout shelter resources...

Here some resource materials for you...

Everything here...

http://www.survivalring.org/bunker/

and a couple of shelter and nuclear preparedness specific files...just for TB folks...

http://www.survivalring.org/tb2kfriends

These are files I have created and sell at

http://www.survivalring.info

The key things to remember...

ANY shielding is better than NO shielding...

...the denser the shielding (books vs. bricks vs. sandbags vs. cinder blocks filled with mortar vs. poured concrete walls...etc), the higher the protection factor.

Standing outside....zero PF

Inside house near window...10 pf

Inside of house, near center, with more than one wall between you and the outside ... 15 to 20 pf

Basement...no extra mass shielding...30 to 40 pf

Basement with bricks/sandbags/hand built walls on four walls ... 40 to 60 pf

Basement with poured concrete walls or cinder block walls filled with mortar/sand /water mix ... 60 to 100pf

The higher the pf, the better the shielding from Gamma radiation, which is your foe.

Depending on the fallout pattern (where you are downwind, with prevailing winds pushing fallout in your general direction), you'll need to to hunker down in your shelter for 7-10 days without leaving. After 10 days, outside for short periods of time...hour or less...to check damage, get food/water/news, etc.

After 14 days, even in heavy fallout, it's safe to get outside for extended periods.

Preps you need...water, easy to prep food, a radio, something to pass the time...games, books, shortwave, bedding...planned sanitation maintenence... and patience.

Take the time now to get a Nukalert, a rad monitoring device (both from Shane), and understand what they measure, so if the time comes, you don't make any unwarranted travels into unsafe conditions.

Hope this helps...

Rich

momof23goats:

Being alergic to iodine is less of a problem than you might think...

Should you or your kids be exposed to radioactive iodine (I-139 IIRC) the issue will be an increase in likelihood of thyroid cancer with a latency of somewhere in the 30-35 year range. Meaning that the issue with Radioactive Iodine is thyroid cancers 30-35 years after exposure.

KI and the rest of the various Iodine compounds are designed to protect ONLY the thyroid.

UN-like Androstenadiol......which is not available on the market anymore...

I gotta question about KI if someone could enlighten me please...


I read somewhere that KI is ineffective for people over 40 y.o., is this true or bad info? If I remember right, I read that in G. Gordon Liddy's book of preps and threat assessment.

Thank you ND!

People KI is not a magic shield!

It will not protect you against all forms of radiation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A nuclear detonation (not a dirty bomb) will emit neutrons which will create radioactive isotopes of several chemicals...for instance strontium which is also absorbed in the body.

Radioactive iodine is only one of many and Potassium Iodide will only protect against ONE radioactive isotope...iodine, nothing else.

Simpler yet, let me put it this way dozens of isotopes will kill you Potassium Iodide will only protect you against ONE of the dozens.

Wiley said:

I gotta question about KI if someone could enlighten me please...


I read somewhere that KI is ineffective for people over 40 y.o., is this true or bad info? If I remember right, I read that in G. Gordon Liddy's book of preps and threat assessment.

Click to expand...

I would imagine that's because thyroid cancer caused by radioactive iodine doesn't develop for years and years after exposure, so a 40 year old would be 70-75 years old before cancer developed. In other words, they most likely will die of old age and other complications before they would die of thyroid cancer.

So it's more of an issue for someone under 40.

KI facts...

KI (potassium iodide) and KIO3 (potassium iodate) are not magic anti-radiation pills.

It protects you from only one of a soup of potentially about 200 different isotopes released in a nuclear explosion. However, health experts now estimate that the greatest health concerns affecting the largest number of people downwind from a nuclear accident, or nuclear bomb explosion(s) anywhere in the world, will likely be from the release of radioiodine that is then carried downwind for hundreds of miles. (Thyroid cancer attributable to Chernobyl "...has been documented up to 500 km from the accident site.")

While there will also be many other dangerous radioisotopes released along with radioiodine, if they are inhaled or ingested they are normally dispersed throughout a body and pose less of a risk than if they were to be concentrated into one small specific area of the body, like radioiodine is in the thyroid gland. So, as a plume or cloud of radioactive isotopes disperses with the wind over distance its danger also diminishes, but much less quickly so for radioiodine because whatever little there is left that's inhaled will always then be concentrated into that small space of the thyroid gland. Eventually giving such a large radiation dose to thyroid cells there that abnormalities are likely to result, such as loss of thyroid function, nodules in the thyroid, or thyroid cancer.

Each year 12,000 Americans discover they have thyroid cancer, though from various assorted causes, and about 1000 die from it. Read www.ki4u.com for more facts on radioiodine, thyroid cancer and KI. You'll also see there where the National Cancer Institute Study Estimating Thyroid Doses of I-131 Received by Americans From Nevada Atmospheric Nuclear Bomb Tests determined a 'worst case' estimate that fallout from nuclear weapons testing likely generated from 10,000 to 75,000 cases of thyroid cancer!

Taking KI or KIO3 fills up your thyroid gland with safe and stable iodine so that then if you later inhale or ingest radioactive iodine (radioiodine) your kidneys simply and promptly expel it.

The age thing is, the younger the victim, starting at the womb, the more likely thyroid cancer and debilitating effects on development and the speed of the effects presenting themselves, some even within a year of exposure. As we get much over the age of 40 the odds begin to decrease that we'd see the cancer and it's effects fully express itself in our remaining lifetimes, but KI is still recommended by the FDA at even advanced ages if dose received is high. If KI is in short supply, pregnant women and the youngest infants and children should always get it first.

For those severely allergic to iodine you'll, unfortunately, also need to keep in mind that even if you don't take potassium iodine or iodate, you can still have, and need to be prepared for, an adverse iodine allergic reaction from ingesting or inhaling the radioactive iodine itself, too. It is still iodine, just like KI, and the allergic reaction will be, too. There are gas mask filters specific to iodine you might want to look into.

Bottom Line: KI may only protect you from one of about 200 isotopes, but depending on how far downwind you are, radioiodine might be the one isotope that could most threaten all our kids. KI has been long proven a cheap insurance that all American families should have on hand, so we've been offering it for close to a decade here.

- Shane

http://www.oism.org/oism/s32p903.htm

The definitive guide as well as field tested expedient shelters.
Foreward by Dr. Edward Teller. (the horse's mouth)