Indymedia to sponsor Burn the Flag Day, July 4. Bring the kids!

[lars]

May 25, 2005

http://indymediawatch.blogspot.com/2...on-july-4.html

NYC Indymedia: Burn the Flag on July 4





What better way, according to NYC Indymedia, to celebrate the 4th of July than burning the flag?

This July 4th is Flag Burning Day!

Every summer good Americans don their best red white and blue, and gorge themselves on beer and hotdogs to celebrate our independence from England, but from its very beginnings this country has been built on illegitimacies.
...
So on this Fourth of July we call on you to express your feelings on their “Independence Day” by burning a flag in a nationally coordinated action. Together we will show the elite that we are everywhere and that we completely reject the false principals this holiday is based on.

Please spread this message far and wide. Stay tuned to the regular channels for more information. To endorse this call, help organize or just speak your mind, check out the listserv:
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/flagburningday



I'm not going to buy into the whole debate about burning flags. What I will say however, is some people take for granted far too much, their right to do certain things without getting shot.

I wonder if Burn the Flag day will be as popular as Freeze the Media day? It's just as intelligent...

[Dennis Olson]

I thought Independence Day was Cinco de Mayo.....

[CygnusXI]

Every summer good Americans don their best red white and blue, and gorge themselves on beer and hotdogs to celebrate our independence from England, but from its very beginnings this country has been built on illegitimacies.

Yeah? Well you too, ass.

[mbabulldog]

"ARE YOU SH--ING ME, GOMER PYLE?"

Honestly, if they are so unhappy, let them leave. I'll even help them pack. They are burning the very image by which they have the right to burn the flag.

[FarStar]

There's always N. Korea for them...

[Satanta]

how bout if we burn them and the elite? Keeps the flag far enough away so the burning pork stench doesn't soil it.

[Christian for Israel]

Originally Posted by Dennis Olson

I thought Independence Day was Cinco de Mayo.....

no, that's the day we're supposed to burn the mexican flag boss.

[Dennis Olson]

Wouldn't we get prosecuted for doing that as a "hate crime"?

[Tumbleweed]

Originally Posted by Satanta

how bout if we burn them and the elite? Keeps the flag far enough away so the burning pork stench doesn't soil it.

Ah, Satanta.....how much alike we are!

[homepark]

"The only time it should be legal to burn an American flag, is when a politician wraps himself in it"

Not sure who that is attributed to anymore. I believe that I heard Mark Russel say it once. I like the ring of that sentence, though.

[fruit loop]

I personally find flag-burning repulsive, but I'll defend to the death someone's right to do it.

[mbo]

...these people have too much time on their hands - probably on the government dole in some way.

[TECH32]

Originally Posted by mbo

...these people have too much time on their hands - probably on the government dole in some way.

Nah. Just another "credible news source" (at least according to SOME of our posters)...

[Deena in GA]

I tried to put 50 flags, but it wouldn't let me.

[Mark D]

Intentionally desecrating The Flag should be a FELONY. Ideally, it should result in getting drop-shipped to a short list of third-world dictatorships.

That banner represents too many lives, too much blood, too much willing sacrifice, towards a better tomorrow.

Some things should remain sacred.

[Warthog]

If it was the UN flag, then I'd go for sure.

[CygnusXI]

I personally find flag-burning repulsive, but I'll defend to the death someone's right to do it.

I assume your defense, on legal grounds, stems from freedom of speech.
Just curious if your fevor to lay down your life extends to other burnings...
...crosses...
...korans....
...rainbow flags..
...jewish flags...

Or is it strictly political/governmental "freedom of speech" that is defendable, while repulsive?

I know you fairly well fruit, and I can guess at your reply.
Those other are Hate speech.. right?
So hate of an entire nation of peoples is legalistically and morally better than hate by race, religion or sexual identity?

I agree with Mark.
There is no despotism, or psuedo facism in protecting our flag. It is our National Identity-- a symbol. Go after the governmental leaders, policy and agenda's-- those are definible and specific.

Burning the US (or any) Flag is nothing but vile HATRED of an entire nation.
Period.

I would not shed a tear for them.

[fruit loop]

And, if I'm not mistaken, you and I have never met, so no, you DO NOT know me at all, least of all "fairly well."

Yes, it IS a free speech issue. And I WOULD defend the right of others to do the things you mentioned, although you are correct in saying that I would also find that repulsive.

Free speech rights must be defended, even when it's personally repugnant. As I stated, I think burning flags is disgusting (and I fail to see how it's the least bit constructive to a cause) but it's legal under the U.S. Constitution.

I don't care for rap music, and would never listen to it, but I'll defend someone else's right to do so.

When we lose the right to free expression, all other rights are quick to fall as well.

[Cabal]

I'm with Fruit Loop on this ( did I just say that? )
You folks know I love this country and I think Freedom of Speech extends to burning the flag because it does not infringe on anyone else's right to life, liberty, or property (unless you're burning a flag that isn't yours ). I don't like it, but it is Freedom of Speech... just don't make the mistake of burning a flag on my property... bad career move...

[Burt Gummer]

OK let me get this down.............I can't flush the Quran but its OK for someone to burn my country's flag.

Laws allowing this kind of stuff to happen are wrong. This type of thing and other "politically correct" ideals are going to contribute to our demise. Very sad.

I believe our grandchildren will curse us.

[Cabal]

Originally Posted by Burt Gummer

OK let me get this down.............I can't flush the Quran but its OK for someone to burn my country's flag.

Laws allowing this kind of stuff to happen are wrong. This type of thing and other "politically correct" ideals are going to contribute to our demise. Very sad.

I believe our grandchildren will curse us.

Brother, you flush that Koran all you like...no qualms from me, just be careful who you flush it in front of...

And just to clarify something you said... I don't think you caught exactly what it is you said...

Laws don't allow things... laws are desgined to prohibit things At least they should be )... when you start looking at laws to allow things, your thinking gets all skewed...

[Bughunt]

Originally Posted by fruit loop

I personally find flag-burning repulsive, but I'll defend to the death someone's right to do it.

I doubt that you would. Perhaps you can list an example where you have done so. No shortage of 1st amendment issues in the occupied south which you could defend to the death. Seems we would have heard about all this 'defending to the death' on the Tee Vee Nuze. Maybe your car wouldn't start or you had to work early that day. That's ok. Lots of folks use this phrase as a figure of speech. Without real meaning. When a number of some ones actually do it, then the dance will begin. I think we will have a long wait.

[Oilpatch Hand]

At the risk of 1) being misconstrued as endorsing flag-burning, which I do not; and 2) finding myself actually in agreement with fruit loop, which almost never happens...

How much sense does it make to abridge free speech by criminalizing the act of desecrating a symbol of, among other things, free speech? If we make flag desecration illegal, we will have accorded the symbol (the flag) greater importance and significance than the principle (freedom of speech) itself. At that point, the principle of freedom of speech has become of less importance than its symbol, the flag, presenting us a contradiction in terms. How can a symbol be greater than the thing it symbolizes?

The answer is: In a logical world, it can't. By definition, a symbol is a but a small representation of a far larger concept. The flag, a symbol, cannot be greater than those principles for which it stands. At that point, one might as well use the freedom of speech as a mere symbol for the flag, as preposterous as that idea sounds. Which is why, unfortunately, we may have to permit a few sniveling malcontent losers to burn a flag now and then (as distasteful and repugnant as that prospect is.)

Because, after all, I think we all can agree that in the real world, freedom of speech is the thing we venerate, not its symbol (although most of us like it, too.)

[Mark D]

Hmmm...

Symbols go part-and-parcel with what defines any organization... Try telling a Marine that the Eagle-Globe-Anchor is "just a symbol", not worthy of respect.

Symbols, Heraldry, Flags, all exist to remind you, and to call you to, the principles, the heritage, and the future of the entity they represent. Symbolism is part of the fabric that defines a society. They are our identity; those populations that forsake their symbols die. That is just the way humans are wired.

A truth about young men, something that successful militaries have know forever, and a greater truth about societies at large: Give them something to align themselves with; something bigger than themselves, something noble, something with an honorable history, something with direction and purpose, something true, something sacred. Something that can be represented in a symbol... Given competent leadership, you will quickly come to find those mere "boys" are becoming men. Those societies living with pride and dignity, and honor.

The symbol that represents our nation is just as sacred as the Freedoms it represents; because The Flag, what it represents, and the blood spilled for it, has preserved those Freedoms for two centuries. Look where we are now that our national symbol is considered with such disregard... A symptom of a greater sickness, but an accurate observation nonetheless.

Call me a romantic, call me old-fashioned, call me antiquated, call me whatever. It is more than simple cloth and thread.

[Oilpatch Hand]

Originally Posted by Mark D

]Try telling a Marine that the Eagle-Globe-Anchor is "just a symbol", not worthy of respect.

No, thanks. Besides, I didn't say that the flag, or the Marine Corps symbol, for that matter, didn't merit respect.

But most Marines certainly understand that you can't COMPEL everyone to respect the Eagle-Globe-Anchor. Nor would anybody expect, realistically, that everyone will universally respect the American flag. We know, for an established fact, that there are people in this world who have no respect for either. Some of those people actually live here in the good, ol' U. S. of A., whether we like it or not, and those same miscreants have their right to political free speech, once again, whether we like it or not.

I guess it comes down to whether one thinks "The Flag" is greater than The First Amendment itself. To the extent one thinks so, one values the symbol over the real thing. Not that there's anything wrong with that...but from an intellectual standpoint, I have some difficulty with it.

Edited to add:

Please understand that I share most of your sentiments, of course, and you expressed them as well as they can be said. Having said that, however, I think we can both see the conundrum created when we limit political free speech in an effort to protect a symbol of political free speech.

[fruit loop]

Bughunt, I'm an activist and I've marched in support of a number of causes, free speech being one of them. I spent two days outside a library after a "community council" decided it shouldn't stock certain books. You bet I'll defend freedom to the end.

I'm sure folks know how I feel about my rebel battle flag. I've made and replied to a number of posts on that issue. As a descendent of Confederates, and as a reenactor, that flag symbolizes the death of many of my loved ones.

I have NEVER said that anyone should be denied the right to despise my flag, and although it would stick in my guts, I'd have to support someone's right to burn it, too. Attempts to ban it are another matter; that's infringing on MY freedom of expression.

I don't understand what people get out of burning flags, but it's currently protected under freedom of expression. THAT I will defend forever.

[Burt Gummer]

So the key here is that it's OK to burn the flag because it's an act of "free speech"?

Then what if I want to exercise my "free speech" in an artistic sense? I may want to draw black rim glasses, bushy eyebrows, and a moustache on Jackson's face on a $20 bill to make him look like Groucho. If I did this, I am defacing currency, a federal offense. We've decided this "free speech" is wrong.

You can still have the right to free speech without burning the flag.

[old bear]

If burning my countries flag is their freedom of speech, then my smashing my fist into one of their mouths should be my right under the First Amendment too.

OK. If that is settled let's go to their damnned flag burning and take part in the fun.

[TECH32]

While I would never ever even CONSIDER burning the American Flag I recognize that it is 1) a symbol and 2) a piece of cloth.

Free Speech IS all about symbols and I also believe that burning a piece of cloth should NOT be a punishable offense. I would be INCREDIBLY OFFENDED to see someone burning MY flag. But offensive Speech (in particular Political Speech) REQUIRES that we allow people to offended us lest we lose the ability to offend others when exercising OUR Free Speech.

I think Justice Scalia expressed it best during a recent speech:

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35096-2005Mar14.html">"I have my rules that confine me," he said. "When I find it, the original meaning of the Constitution, I am handcuffed." He said that's why he allows flag burning "even though I don't like to" </a>

As to smashing someone in the mouth (old bear) - Speech MUST be met with Speech and Force MUST be met with Force. THAT is the American way. The moment you choose otherwise is the moment YOU forfeit YOUR right to speak without getting punched in the mouth....

[mbo]

Originally Posted by fruit loop

Bughunt, I'm an activist and I've marched in support of a number of causes, free speech being one of them. I spent two days outside a library after a "community council" decided it shouldn't stock certain books. You bet I'll defend freedom to the end.

I'm sure folks know how I feel about my rebel battle flag. I've made and replied to a number of posts on that issue. As a descendent of Confederates, and as a reenactor, that flag symbolizes the death of many of my loved ones.

I have NEVER said that anyone should be denied the right to despise my flag, and although it would stick in my guts, I'd have to support someone's right to burn it, too. Attempts to ban it are another matter; that's infringing on MY freedom of expression.

I don't understand what people get out of burning flags, but it's currently protected under freedom of expression. THAT I will defend forever.

aw hell, you already lost your "rights" when we all got tagged with an SS number

[Gayla]

[Samson]

In reading this thread I get the impression that most do not like our flag being burned but recognize the right of anyone to do it.

It is sad that our nation is occupied by so many who have no appreciation of our country. I must very grudgingly agree that anyone who wants to can burn the cloth. If I see someone doing it in front of me I may be forced to violate thier rights.

It seems to me that our fore fathers never envisioned so many a**holes living amongst us who would do such a thing.

[Grantbo]

Originally Posted by fruit loop

I personally find flag-burning repulsive, but I'll defend to the death someone's right to do it.

This is Grantbo
I agree with the first part, not the 2nd.

Hopefull, some pissed off patriot will give them the 'beat down'.

[cryhavoc]

I can't believe we're having this conversation.

I've served my country. I've known better men than all of you, who made the
ultimate sacrifice, who paid the price with thier blood so you could even debate
this issue.

....defend someones right to burn my flag, huh?

You people utterly disgust me.


Cry, "HAVOC!!"



"Don't fear the night - fear what hunts at night."

[Bughunt]

Originally Posted by fruit loop

Bughunt, I'm an activist and I've marched in support of a number of causes, free speech being one of them. I spent two days outside a library after a "community council" decided it shouldn't stock certain books. You bet I'll defend freedom to the end.

I'm sure folks know how I feel about my rebel battle flag. I've made and replied to a number of posts on that issue. As a descendent of Confederates, and as a reenactor, that flag symbolizes the death of many of my loved ones.

I have NEVER said that anyone should be denied the right to despise my flag, and although it would stick in my guts, I'd have to support someone's right to burn it, too. Attempts to ban it are another matter; that's infringing on MY freedom of expression.

I don't understand what people get out of burning flags, but it's currently protected under freedom of expression. THAT I will defend forever.

Sitting on some library steps and marching in a parade hardly qualifies as fighting to the death. Equating what you did with the sacrifice made by those who have, cheapens those who stood up and faced bullets and steel. Including your ancestors. I guess this is what we have come to.

[Phil Ca]

I have attended one flag burning in my lifetime. Several civic minded folks were there and also police officers and veterans. It was an annual event sponsored by the American Legion. There was patriotic music put on by my daughters high school choir that she taught. The BSA was there with young men in their scout uniforms.

Maybe by now you guessed that it was a "retirement" ceremony for old, tattered, faded and worn out flags. Everything was done by the book and it was a fitting tribute to "Old Glory".

[Thomas Paine]

It is any dickweed's right to burn the flag and they accept the consequences for their actions.It is my right to respond as I see fit as long as I accept the conseqences of my actions(if caught ) Now where did I put the that bacavala?

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by cryhavoc

I can't believe we're having this conversation.

I've served my country. I've known better men than all of you, who made the
ultimate sacrifice, who paid the price with thier blood so you could even debate
this issue.

....defend someones right to burn my flag, huh?

You people utterly disgust me.


Cry, "HAVOC!!"



"Don't fear the night - fear what hunts at night."

I hear you brother! Legally they are within their rights, morally they are bankrupt and i hope someone cleans thier clock.

[Kimber]

Burn baby, burn!

Seriously, it is a piece of cloth. Your heart and soul matter, not a piece of fabric. If others think they'll get a rise out of you by doing this they will. Piss on a flag, stomp on it, wipe a baby's bottom - to steal a phrase "It don't mean nothing."

Remember the Patton line about winning wars by letting the other dumb bastard die for his country? Same thing.

If you feel the need to have a piece of cloth to demonstrate a point of view, more power to you. But, it ain't my gig.

David

[CygnusXI]

Actually, Cygnus, you're wrong

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, if I'm not mistaken, you and I have never met, so no, you DO NOT know me at all, least of all "fairly well."

Yes, it IS a free speech issue. And I WOULD defend the right of others to do the things you mentioned, although you are correct in saying that I would also find that repulsive.

Ok then.
I guess I don't...
Your answer is a suprise to me, but I'm old and must have mixed you up with someone else.. sorry.
(I didn't mean I knew you as in "Hey fruit, heading down to Joes for a beer", I meant as in "Oh it's that fruit again on the tb2k board... I have never met you in real life to be sure)