[BRKG 9-11 in pm] N. Korea mushroom cloud seen 9-9 (just breaking) - nuke test maybe

Anjou

Inactive
News just breaking now about event that probably occurred 9/8/04 U.S. time.

FreeRepublic.com thread...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213592/posts
... links to this...
http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/320000000020040912120049E7.html
which says:
" 2004/09/12 11:59 KST
(URGENT) NK explosion-mushroom cloud
A reliable source in Seoul's diplomatic community says Sunday a mushroom cloud with a radius of 3.5 to 4 kilometers was spotted in Kimhyongjik County in North Korea's northernmost inland province of Yanggang on Sept. 9. (END)"


Another news article just cites explosion:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040911_1435.html

Another FreeRepublic.com thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213576/posts
 
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north runner

Membership Revoked
Finally....I was really getting tired of waiting. Now the nsa will have all the intell they need to tell whether NK is a fleabag or a contender.
 

pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
Good finds. From Yahoo:

Large explosion in North Korea last week
Fair use policy applies
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&e=4&u=/afp/20040912/wl_asia_afp/nkorea_blast


SEOUL (AFP) - A large explosion rocked North Korea's northern inland province of Ryanggang last week, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said.

The explosion appeared to be stronger than an April 22 blast that killed more than 150 people and wounded some 1,300 others in Ryongchon near the western tip of North Korea's border with China, it said Sunday.

The latest blast took place in Kimhyungjik county near the Chinese border on September 9, when North Korea marked the 56th anniversary of its founding, Yonhap said, citing an unnamed source in Beijing.

It did not provide further details on the blast or say if there had been any casualties.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4489372,00.html

Blast, Mushroom Cloud Reported in N. Korea Sunday September 12, 2004 4:16 AM

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - A large explosion occurred in the northern part of North Korea, sending a huge mushroom cloud into the air on an important anniversary of the communist regime, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported Sunday.
Citing an unidentified source in Beijing, Yonhap said the explosion happened on Thursday in Yanggang province near the border with China. The damage and crater left by the explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county was big enough to be noticed by a satellite, the source said.
``We understand that a mushroom-shaped cloud about 3.5- to 4- kilometer (2.2 miles to 2.5 miles) in diameter was monitored during the explosion,'' Yonhap quoted an unidentified diplomatic source in Seoul as saying.
North Korea was founded on Sept. 9, 1948. Leader Kim Jong Il uses the occasion to stage performances and other events to bolster loyalty among the impoverished North Korean population.
Experts have speculated that North Korea might use a major anniversary to conduct a nuclear-related test, though there was no immediate indication that the reported explosion on Thursday was linked to Pyongyang's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.
On April 22, train wagons at a railway station exploded in the North Korean town of Ryongchon, killing 160 people and injuring an estimated 1,300, according to some estimates. The blast was believed to have been sparked by a train laden with oil and chemicals that hit power lines.
The source in Beijing that told Yonhap about the explosion last week said it was reportedly bigger than the train explosion in Ryongchon.
 

Ought Six

Membership Revoked
Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns


By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
New York Times

WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.

While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles.

Some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about the Iraq findings have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test. A senior scientist who assesses nuclear intelligence says the new evidence "is not conclusive," but is potentially worrisome.

If successful, a test would end a debate that stretches back more than a decade over whether North Korea has a rudimentary arsenal, as it has boasted in recent years. Some analysts also fear that a test could change the balance of power in Asia, perhaps leading to a new nuclear arms race there.

In interviews on Friday and Saturday, senior officials were reluctant to provide many details of the new activities they have detected, but some of the information appears to have come from satellite intelligence.

One official with access to the intelligence called it "a series of indicators of increased activity that we believe would be associated with a test," saying that the "likelihood" of a North Korean test had risen significantly in just the past four weeks.

It was that changed assessment that led to the decision to give an update to President Bush, the officials said.

The activities included the movement of materials around several suspected test sites, including one near a location where intelligence agencies reported last year that conventional explosives were being tested that could compress a plutonium core and set off a nuclear explosion. But officials have not seen the classic indicators of preparations at a test site, in which cables are laid to measure an explosion in a deep test pit.

"I'm not sure you would see that in a country that has tunnels everywhere," said one senior official who has reviewed the data. Officials said if North Korea proceeded with a test, it would probably be with a plutonium bomb, perhaps one fabricated from the 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods that the North has boasted in the past few months have been reprocessed into bomb fuel.

A senior intelligence official noted Saturday that even if "they are doing something, it doesn't mean they will" conduct a test, noting that preparations that the North knew could be detected by the United States might be a scare tactic or negotiating tactic by the North Korean government.

Several officials speculated that the test, if it occurred, could be intended to influence the presidential election, though a senior military official said while "an election surprise" could be the motive, "I'm not sure what that would buy them."

While the intelligence community's experience in Iraq colors how it assesses threats in places like North Korea, the comparisons are inexact. Inspectors have seen and measured the raw material that the North could turn into bomb fuel; the only question is whether they have done so in the 20 months since arms inspectors were ousted. While Iraq denied it has weapons, the North boasts about them - perhaps too loudly, suggesting they may have less than they say.

On the other hand, the divisions within the administration over how to deal with North Korea mirrors some of the old debate about Iraq. Hard-liners in the Pentagon and the vice president's office have largely opposed making concessions of any kind in negotiations, and Vice President Dick Cheney has warned that "time is not on our side" to deal with the question. The State Department has pressed the case for negotiation, and for offering the North a face-saving way out. While the State Department has won the argument in recent times, how to deal with the North is a constant battle inside the administration.

Some of the senior officials who discussed the emerging indicators were clearly trying to warn North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, that his actions were being closely watched. Asian officials noted that there has been speculation in South Korea and Japan for some time that Mr. Kim might try to stage an incident - perhaps a missile test or the withdrawal of more raw nuclear fuel from a reactor - in an effort to display defiance before the election. "A test would be a vivid demonstration of their view of President Bush," one senior Asian diplomat said.

The intelligence information was discussed in interviews with officials from five government agencies, ranging from those who believe a test may occur at any moment to those who are highly skeptical. They had differing access to the intelligence: some had reviewed the raw data and others had seen a classified intelligence report about the possibility of a test, perhaps within months, that has circulated in Washington in the past week. Most, but not all, were career officials.

If North Korea successfully tested a weapon, the reclusive country would become the eighth nation to have proven nuclear capability - Israel is also assumed to have working weapons - and it would represent the failure of 14 years of efforts to stop the North's nuclear program.

Government officials throughout Asia and members of Mr. Bush's national security team have also feared it could change the nuclear politics of Asia, fueling political pressure in South Korea and Japan to develop a nuclear deterrent independent of the United States.

Both countries have the technological skill and the raw material to produce a bomb, though both have insisted they would never do so. South Korea has admitted in the past few weeks that it conducted experiments that outside experts fear could produce bomb-grade fuel, first in the early 1980's and then in 2000.

Senior officials in South Korea and Japan did not appear to have been briefed about the new evidence, beyond what one called "a nonspecific warning of a growing problem" from American officials. But it is a measure of the extraordinary nervousness about the North's intentions that earlier this week, South Korean intelligence officials who saw evidence of an intense fire at a suspected nuclear location alerted their American counterparts that a small nuclear test might have already occurred. American officials reviewed seismic sensors and other data and concluded it was a false alarm, though the fire has yet to be explained.

North Korea has declared several times in the past year that it might move to demonstrate its nuclear power. It is impossible to know how such a test might affect public perceptions of how Mr. Bush has handled potential threats to the United States. Senator John Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, has already accused President Bush of an "almost myopic" focus on Iraq that has distracted the United States while North Korea, by some intelligence estimates, has increased its arsenal from what the C.I.A. suspects was one or two weapons to six or eight now.

Mr. Bush, while declaring he would not "tolerate" a nuclear North Korea, has insisted that his approach of involving China, Russia, Japan and South Korea in a new round of talks with the North is the only reasonable way to force the country to disarm. He has refused to set the kind of deadline for disarmament that he set for Saddam Hussein.

When asked in an interview with The New York Times two weeks ago to define what he meant by "tolerate," he said: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators and tyrants. I think it's important for us to continue to lead coalitions that are firm and strong, in sending messages to both the North Koreans and the Iranians."

The differing assessments of North Korea's intentions may reflect the competing lessons of two huge intelligence failures: the failure of the C.I.A. and other intelligence agencies to detect India's preparations for a nuclear test in 1998, and the false warnings about the state of Iraq's nuclear, biological and chemical programs in 2002, which became the chief justification for invading the country. An investigation into the first failure, a test that took intelligence officials by surprise and led to Pakistan's first tests, prompted searing criticisms of the nation's intelligence agencies. It also created an atmosphere, intelligence professionals say, that encouraged early warning of any hint that another country is preparing a nuclear test.
-----

Eric Schmitt contributed reporting for this article.
 

CanadaSue

Inactive
any radiation detected?

Had to change my undies before asking.

I DID want to sleep tonight.

What's in that region that would make it safe enough to test there?
 

Anjou

Inactive
This site's front page will list stories breaking 5 minutes ago etc. from all around the world... several articles on the N. Korea blast.

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/

If you want to search, can only do so on one word, like mushroom or korea
 
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pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
Newsnow is one of my favorite haunts.

NOTE: If you leave the page open to the site above once you have a search result, it routinely refreshes itself to retrieve the latest articles.
 

Anjou

Inactive
CanadaSue said:
What's in that region that would make it safe enough to test there?

Maybe a lot of nothing?

>explosion in a remote area of North Korea near the border with China<
http://www.borsaitalia.it/fwa-cgi-bin/news.pl?id=1094958915nSEO326240


Article about the province Yanggang:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Yanggang
Encyclopedia: Yanggang
Ryanggang (full name Ryanggang-do (량강도; 兩江道)) is a province (Do) of North Korea. The province's name is sometimes also spelled as Yanggang in English. It is bordered by China to the north, North Hamgyong to the east, South Hamgyong to the south, and Chagang to the west....


Map and population:
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/d/d_kp_yg.htm
 

Anjou

Inactive
Background:
(BBC article dated today)

N Korea attacks South over tests

Seoul says only miniscule amounts of nuclear material were produced
North Korea has said that news of recent nuclear experiments in the South has made it even more determined not to abandon its own weapons programme.
South Korea has admitted experimenting with plutonium and uranium and has been chided by the United States.

The North accused the US of backing the research and said international talks on its nuclear plans were in question.

Delegations of Chinese and British officials are currently holding talks in the North's capital, Pyongyang....
(for more, click link)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3647278.stm

Would anyone care to do a situation analysis as in what the ramifications of this are???
 
So.. the question is... what can make a mushroom cloud 2.5 miles big?

I know there are regular ordnance that can make a mushroom cloud... but they aren't anywhere near that big.. are they?
 
-
About a 5-10 KT nuclear device will do nicely. And they had intended (IMHO) for it to be an underground test. Trouble is, some one didn't dig deep enough...
 

Anjou

Inactive
ChainedLightning said:
So.. the question is... what can make a mushroom cloud 2.5 miles big?

I know there are regular ordnance that can make a mushroom cloud... but they aren't anywhere near that big.. are they?

There is some discussion of that question over at the FreeRepublic.com threads noted in the first post of this thread.
 

pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
Anjou said:
Background:
(BBC article dated today)

N Korea attacks South over tests

Seoul says only miniscule amounts of nuclear material were produced
North Korea has said that news of recent nuclear experiments in the South has made it even more determined not to abandon its own weapons programme.
South Korea has admitted experimenting with plutonium and uranium and has been chided by the United States.

The North accused the US of backing the research and said international talks on its nuclear plans were in question.

Delegations of Chinese and British officials are currently holding talks in the North's capital, Pyongyang....
(for more, click link)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3647278.stm

Would anyone care to do a situation analysis as in what the ramifications of this are???

In a nutshell, Britain and China are trying to encourage Pyongyang back to the table regarding the six-way talks over its nuclear weapons program. However, NK has been making rumblings that the talks are basically useless for now (especially with the US), but will consider resuming the talks after the US election.
 

Anjou

Inactive
And in a host of unrelated news:

Mushroom festival to bloom The Patriot-News, Pennsylvania 10:42 9-Sep-04

Clock may be ticking on mushroom picking myTELUS 06:56 9-Sep-04

Does It Work? The Perfect Mushroom Slicer komo 4 TV, Washington 03:10 9-Sep-04

Mushroom hunting: Not just a springtime activity Mercury News, California 11:09 8-Sep-04

Bioengineers tout mushroom power Summit Daily, Colorado 04:31 8-Sep-04

NGO organises workshop on mushroom production Accra Daily Mail 19:02 6-Sep-04

Mushroom experts sort toxic from tasty Times Leader, Pennsylvania 08:03 6-Sep-04

Mushroom BOOM! Albuquerque Tribune, New Mexico 18:57 27-Aug-04

Arson suspected at mushroom farm news.com.au 22:59 22-Aug-04

Giant mushroom found in Riverside Kalona News, Iowa 22:48 18-Aug-04

Mushroom attack The Copenhagen Post 14:00 12-Aug-04
 
Nature of Blast in N. Korea Unclear: U.S. Diplomatic Sources

WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 (Yonhap) -- A diplomatic source here said a huge explosion reported to have occurred in North Korea appears not to be a nuclear weapons test, but said it remains unclear whether it was a natural disaster or an accident.

(SWR adds... Read my other post where they are saying might be nuclear test... and what gets me is their certainty of "natural disaster or accident" let's not even suggest it might have been intentional)

Another source raised the possibility of a forest fire, citing huge clouds of smoke, and added that there is a rumor that the explosion occurred near the Demilitarized Zone, not the northernmost province of Yanggang as reported.

(SWR adds... I particularly like the "forest fire" theory... they always leave big craters you can see from space...)

Now the demilitarized zone thing is interesting, if you have ever heard Ed Dames, cause that's what he has said would happen for quite a while now.
 
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Anjou

Inactive
KateCanada said:
3 days ago???? I don't get it.

Word doesn't travel out of N. Korea very quickly (I guess it's that closed/backward/etc.) .... granted, I would expect the folks with an eye on whatever satellites could see it.
 

pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
No kidding. Even SK is still trying to confirm...


Seoul Trying to Confirm Huge Explosion in N.K.: Minister
http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/301100000020040912122757E9.html


SEOUL, Sept. 12 (Yonhap) -- South Korea is trying to confirm whether or not a huge explosion occurred in North Korea, said Seoul's top negotiator with North Korea said Sunday.

Unification Minister Chung Dong-young said he was not aware of the scale of the blast and played down the possibility of a North Korea's nuclear weapons test.
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
From IH: no link, but do we have this version yet?

REPORT Report: Major Explosion in North Korean Province

By Christopher Torchia Associated Press Writer
Published: Sep 11, 2004

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - A large explosion occurred in the northern part of North Korea, sending a huge mushroom cloud into the air on an important anniversary of the communist regime, a South Korean news agency reported Sunday.
The Yonhap news agency, citing an unidentified source in Beijing, said the explosion happened Thursday in Yanggang province near the border with China. The explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county blasted a crater big enough to be noticed by a satellite, the source said.

"We understand that a mushroom-shaped cloud about 3.5 to 4 kilometers (about 2-2 1/2 miles) in diameter was monitored during the explosion," Yonhap quoted an unidentified diplomatic source in Seoul as saying.
North Korea was founded Sept. 9, 1948. Leader Kim Jong Il uses the occasion to stage performances and other events to bolster loyalty among the impoverished North Korean population.

Experts have speculated that North Korea might use a major anniversary to conduct a nuclear-related test, though there was no immediate indication that Thursday's reported explosion was linked to Pyongyang's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.

Kim Hyong Jik is reported to hold a major missile base. North Korea, which has a large missile arsenal and more than 1 million soldiers, is dotted with military installations.

South Korea's Unification Minister Chung Dong-young said Sunday the government was in the process of confirming reports there were signs of an explosion in North Korea.

"I am not aware of details such as the size of the damage," he was quoted as saying by Yonhap after a National Security Council meeting.

On Saturday, North Korea said recent revelations that South Korea conducted secret nuclear experiments involving uranium and plutonium made the communist state more determined to pursue its own atomic programs.

The South Korean experiments, conducted in 1982 and 2000, were likely to further complicate the already stalled six-nation talks aimed at dismantling the North's nuclear development. South Korea has said the experiments were purely for research and did not reflect a desire to develop weapons.

On April 22, train wagons at a railway station exploded in the North Korean town of Ryongchon, killing 160 people and injuring an estimated 1,300, according to some estimates. The blast was believed to have been sparked by a train laden with oil and chemicals that hit power lines.

The source in the Yonhap report said Thursday's explosion reportedly was bigger than the train explosion.
__________________
 

KateCanada

Inactive
Anjou said:
Word doesn't travel out of N. Korea very quickly (I guess it's that closed/backward/etc.) .... granted, I would expect the folks with an eye on whatever satellites could see it.

It's the satelllites which I was thinking??? Don't you all get the feeling we are totally being kept in the dark on purpose? This is to scary. :shk:
 
This coming from Italy news

Unclear what happened in N.Korea, US official says

WASHINGTON, Sept 11 (Reuters) - A U.S. official said on Saturday it was unclear what had happened in North Korea and said there were various possible explanations for Yonhap news agency's report of a huge explosion near North Korea's border with China three days ago.

SWR adds... and that was all they said... no more to the news release.

******************************
UPDATE 1-Big explosion reported in N.Korea-Yonhap

SEOUL, Sept 12 (Reuters) - A huge explosion rocked an area in North Korea near the border with China three days ago and appeared to be much bigger than a train blast that killed 170 people in April, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday.

"There were rumours that the explosion was much bigger than the one at Ryongchon train station and the United States is showing a big interest as the blast was seen from satellites," Yonhap quoted an unnamed source in Beijing as saying.

The cause had yet to be determined but the source said Washington was not ruling out the possibility that the blast may be linked to a nuclear test.
 

Anjou

Inactive
KateCanada said:
It's the satelllites which I was thinking??? Don't you all get the feeling we are totally being kept in the dark on purpose? This is to scary. :shk:

Well, how do I put this... I don't think a lot does make it to the public right away, for reasons of intelligence gathering etc. (which may be completely valid). There were articles floating around .. like on the front page of the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/

"Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
President Bush has received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that could indicate preparations for a nuclear test..."

Something like that kind of sets the stage for further revelations.

I don't know if much vs. something big would come of this.. needless to say it's a good time to keep up on the news. Perhaps someone else here has more insight into the scenarios.

If there's comfort to be had, it's that based on the rumblings and articles like the one I noted above, this doesn't sound *completely* unexpected. (And who knows if it actually was nuclear or not.. NK could be just - literally - blowing smoke somehow...)
 

onetimer

Has No Life - Lives on TB
N.Korea Blast Unlikely to Have Been Atomic-S.Korea Minister

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=6211151

SEOUL (Reuters) - A huge blast three days ago in North Korea was unlikely to have been a nuclear weapons test, South Korea's unification minister said on Sunday.

According to Yonhap news agency, Chung Dong-young told South Korean reporters after a National Security Council meeting that Seoul's assessment so far was the explosion was unlikely to have been linked to the North's nuclear arms ambitions.
 

TIK

Inactive
I SWEAR I'm not being flippant with this question...

Should we be worried? I ask out of sheer ignorance...

But if anyone asks if I've been under a rock or something, my gloves are coming off! I KNOW North Korea is a whacked country...
 
As I see it, there are three possibilities

1. they tested a nuke
2. they want us to think they tested a nuke.. but in reality set off a couple thousand somethings of TNT
3. someone hit THEM with something, to keep them from getting nuclear capabilities, maybe us, maybe someone else
 

KateCanada

Inactive
Anjou said:
Well, how do I put this... I don't think a lot does make it to the public right away, for reasons of intelligence gathering etc. (which may be completely valid). There were articles floating around .. like on the front page of the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/

"Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
President Bush has received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that could indicate preparations for a nuclear test..."

Something like that kind of sets the stage for further revelations.

I don't know if much vs. something big would come of this.. needless to say it's a good time to keep up on the news. Perhaps someone else here has more insight into the scenarios.

If there's comfort to be had, it's that based on the rumblings and articles like the one I noted above, this doesn't sound *completely* unexpected. (And who knows if it actually was nuclear or not.. NK could be just - literally - blowing smoke somehow...)

Thanks for the info. Is Canada, Northern US states and Alaska in more serious trouble/risks from NK then anyone else???
 

pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
NK is very cagey in its tactics when it comes to negotiating. At times the leadership appears accommodating and willing to come to terms. Then, they do an about-face and start on their anti-US rantings.

Then, they back off for a while, appear willing to negotiate again, then the cycle repeats.

Methinks they are just buying time...
 

Snipe Hunter

Veteran Member
Keep this in mind IF the North Koreans did pop a nuke & we are not saying anything I would consider this a serious dot.

What is going on in Washington that they dont want to tell the public that this has happened?

Just thinking ....... :shr:
 

Anjou

Inactive
TIK said:
Should we be worried?

Hoping someone who is more geared to analyses of these kinds of situations will weigh in here. (And would like to see what Stratfor.com puts out on this if anything.)

1. Something happened - maybe nuke test maybe not.

2. Even if we hear no nuke test, it might've been.

3. There's been all sorts of nuke yapping by NK over recent months, posturing, etc. etc.

4. "Nuclear" seems to be a big issue in several other countries now too.

5. It kind of feels like the 1960s.
 

Anjou

Inactive
KateCanada said:
Is Canada, Northern US states and Alaska in more serious trouble/risks from NK then anyone else???

Well, a British paper ran this headline early last year:
US fears North Korea could nuke California
http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,894520,00.html

The article says in part:

...North Korea "probably has one or two plutonium-based devices" and the missile capacity to hit California.

Adm Jacoby said the potential range of the three-stage Taepo Dong 2 included Hawaii, Alaska and perhaps sections of the west coast. But it had not yet been tested, he said, leaving the question of its true ability open...
 
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