INTL Intl Criminal Court (Hague) claims jurisdiction over U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan

[Heliobas Disciple]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...095440312.html
(fair use applies)

Prosecuting American 'War Crimes'
The International Criminal Court claims jurisdiction over U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan.
By DANIEL SCHWAMMENTHAL
The Hague
NOVEMBER 26, 2009, 7:04 P.M. ET

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed "great regret" in August that the U.S. is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court (ICC). This has fueled speculation that the Obama administration may reverse another Bush policy and sign up for what could lead to the trial of Americans for war crimes in The Hague.

The ICC's chief prosecutor, though, has no intention of waiting for Washington to submit to the court's authority. Luis Moreno Ocampo says he already has jurisdiction—at least with respect to Afghanistan.

Because Kabul in 2003 ratified the Rome Statute—the ICC's founding treaty—all soldiers on Afghan territory, even those from nontreaty countries, fall under the ICC's oversight, Mr. Ocampo told me. And the chief prosecutor says he is already conducting a "preliminary examination" into whether NATO troops, including American soldiers, fighting the Taliban may have to be put in the dock.

"We have to check if crimes against humanity, war crimes or genocide have been committed in Afghanistan," Mr. Ocampo told me. "There are serious allegations against the Taliban and al Qaeda and serious allegations about warlords, even against some who are connected with members of the government." Taking up his inquiry of Allied soldiers, he added, "there are different reports about problems with bombings and there are also allegations about torture."

It was clear who the targets of these particular inquiries are but the chief prosecutor shied away from spelling it out.

Asked repeatedly whether the examination of bombings and torture allegations refers to NATO and U.S. soldiers, Mr. Ocampo finally stated that "we are investigating whoever commits war crimes, including the group you mentioned."

The fact that he avoided a straightforward "I am looking into possible war crimes committed by American soldiers" showed that Mr. Ocampo is aware of the enormity of crossing this legal and political bridge. Appointed in 2003 for a nine-year period, the 57-year-old Argentinian has—so far—established a record of cautious jurisprudence.

Mr. Ocampo is famous in his home country for prosecuting military juntas as well as starring in a reality program where he adjudicated private disputes. And in his first six years at the ICC, he pursued real evildoers. He indicted Ugandan rebel Joseph Kony, militia leaders from the Congo and Sudan's President Omar al-Bashir, responsible for the genocide in Darfur. Yet collecting information about possible war crimes by American soldiers smacks of just the sort of politicized prosecution critics of the ICC had always warned about.

Mr. Ocampo remained tight-lipped about the specifics of his preliminary examination. Asked whether waterboarding—a practice that simulates drowning without causing lasting physical harm—is a form of torture produced a telling "no comment." Yet if the Obama administration considers this practice torture, one has to wonder if the ICC's chief prosecutor would give it his stamp of approval.

There is also the issue of whether Predator strikes of unmanned drones targeting terrorist leaders in Afghanistan and Pakistan—as carried out in the very first week of the Obama presidency—are part of the bombings he's looking into. Mr. Ocampo chuckled and answered evasively. "We have people around the world concerned about this," he said, and when pressed, added, "Whatever the gravest war crimes are that have been committed, we have to check."

"Gravest" is the operative word here. The court was established to "end impunity for the perpetrators of the most serious crimes of concern to the international community," as stated on the ICC's Web site. This would suggest that even if U.S. soldiers have committed war crimes by the prosecutor's definition, the ICC would have no reason to get involved as those transgressions would surely be insignificant compared to the butchery in places like Sudan or Congo.

Mr. Ocampo's own words, though, suggested that he disagrees. I asked him if he was going to prosecute the worst crimes in his jurisdiction or the worst crimes in a particular case, such as Afghanistan, irrespective of how they compare to crimes around the world. He paused before answering.

"Normally," he said (another pause) "we select situations which are grave, for instance when I choose. . . ." Mr. Ocampo didn't finish the sentence, sighed and began afresh: "Both [scenarios] are right. Normally, we open investigations in the worst situation in the world and in some cases [countries] we investigate the worst situation."

This is an expansive and controversial interpretation of the court's mandate, one that may put an end to the debate about whether former President George W. Bush, fearing just such judicial activism, was justified in unsigning the Rome Statute his predecessor, Bill Clinton, had endorsed. Although the prosecutor's preliminary examination may not result in a formal investigation of Americans, the mere potential of a legal confrontation between the court in The Hague and Washington should be disconcerting to the White House, not to mention to all Americans.

In any event, the ICC's very existence is already changing the way Western nations fights wars. Mr. Ocampo recounted how a legal adviser to NATO told him that troops these days are trained to realize that, in case of transgressions, they could be arrested and brought to the ICC on war crimes charges with the help of evidence provided by NATO itself.

"That is the new world," Mr. Ocampo said proudly. I asked the obvious follow-up. "If this is the 'new world,' why do you bother collecting information about NATO and U.S. troops in Afghanistan?" Why, in other words, when his task is to end the impunity for the worst war crimes, does he spend his limited resources on the most advanced democracies in the world—which operate under strict rules of engagement, have their own chain-of-command investigations and swift prosecution of criminals? Mr. Ocampo got slightly irritated.

"You are suggesting that we are a court only for the Third World. That's what the Arab world said about Bashir, that we are using double standards," he explained. "I said no, I prosecute whoever is in my jurisdiction. I cannot allow that we are a court just for the Third World. If the First World commits crimes, they have to investigate, if they don't, I shall investigate. That's the rule and we have one rule for everyone."

Mr. Ocampo—who has a photo of himself with the head of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, on his windowsill—could have pointed out to his Arab interlocutors that the real double standard was their own complaining about alleged Western aggression against Muslims while they protect Sudan's Bashir, the greatest butcher of Muslims in modern history. The fact that Mr. Ocampo mentioned the Sudanese perpetrator of genocide in the same breath with alleged crimes of NATO soldiers shed light on what the International Criminal Court may have in store for the U.S. in the future.

[Lone Wolf]

What BS!!

Any GI, that runs afoul of this guy will be a tip-off for the rest of our GI's to stay home.


lw

[sssarawolf]

I know our daughter who stationed in Europe is very concerned for the other soldiers with this, I sure pray it doesn't come to pass.

[LoupGarou]

Next time Europe is attacked, let's all just stay home and watch.

Maybe they need to be reminded that if WE had not stepped in, they would all be speaking German and be drinking vodka while waiting in a five block line for toilet paper.

Loup

[Pass Go]

Mr. Ocampo—who has a photo of himself with the head of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, on his windowsill—could have pointed out to his Arab interlocutors that the real double standard was their own complaining about alleged Western aggression against Muslims while they protect Sudan's Bashir, the greatest butcher of Muslims in modern history. The fact that Mr. Ocampo mentioned the Sudanese perpetrator of genocide in the same breath with alleged crimes of NATO soldiers shed light on what the International Criminal Court may have in store for the U.S. in the future.

Good grief. I'd like to point out that they can't even sort through their own trash. And we're involved, uninvolved, and now involved again. Peachy. Just what the troops need, too.

[clem]

It sure would be a bitch to hunt this asshole down, but it could be done.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Str...he+Prosecutor/

[zoose]

'Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed "great regret" in August that the U.S. is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court (ICC). This has fueled speculation that the Obama administration may reverse another Bush policy and sign up for what could lead to the trial of Americans for war crimes in The Hague.'

What she said is treasonous.

[American Rage]

This is where the Left's real treason is exposed. They do everything possible to entangle us in the UN.


Rage

[denfoote]

They can claim anything they want.
How many divisions does the World Court have???

[Thunderbird]

Another reason for us to take ALL of our marbles and go home. And keep all of our aid.
And throw all of the %$^& out. and seal the borders. Drill our own oil, bring the MFG home now.

[SouthernGal]

Originally Posted by clem

It sure would be a bitch to hunt this asshole down, but it could be done.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Str...he+Prosecutor/

I hope it is done.

[ARMY RANGER]

I wonder when they are going to start the draft again because it won't be long before our men and women say F&*K it and don't enlist.How can you fight a war by being politically correct.ASSHOLES!!!

[Bad Hand]

Deleted

[Housecarl]

Originally Posted by denfoote

They can claim anything they want.
How many divisions does the World Court have???

And that is the rub, in effect they have as many divisions as they have like minded world leaders....the potential for a huge FUBAR here is unreal.

If Obama bows to this, added to everything else, he will make the LBJ and Carter Administrations look like successful presidencies.

[denfoote]

I hope the Marines are getting really pissed off about this.

[rodeorector]

.......or the CIA.

[G-Man]

The United States is in financial dire straits and losing world power because of it; when this happens your war crimes suddenly get noticed.....

[Troke]

Nobody gets it. The goal is to remove the 'malignant' American Culture from the world scene; it's military, cultural and economic influence.

Put the US Military under a World Court and you have a problem?

Nope, just never let the US Military ever leave the confines of the US.

Problem solved.

And that is the goal.

[Volleyball Granny]

Bring them home. Let the Afghanis fight it out among themselves.

[Harbinger]

Originally Posted by LoupGarou

Next time Europe is attacked, let's all just stay home and watch.

Maybe they need to be reminded that if WE had not stepped in, they would all be speaking German and be drinking vodka while waiting in a five block line for toilet paper.

Loup

That's exactly what I was thinking....

Isn't clear yet to the soldiers, special military groups, that they are being betrayed....

[G-Man]

Maybe they need to be reminded that if WE had not stepped in, they would all be speaking German and be drinking vodka while waiting in a five block line for toilet paper.

not Vodka (that is the Russians) BEER

and
The United States, has one of the largest concentrations of German speakers outside Europe. In the states of North Dakota and South Dakota German is the most common language spoken at home after English

An indication of the German presence can be found in the names of such places as Bismarck (state capital), Munich, Karlsruhe, and Strasburg in North Dakota; New Braunfels and Muenster in Texas; and Kiel, Berlin and Germantown in Wisconsin. Over the course of the 20th century many of the descendants of 18th- and 19th-century immigrants ceased speaking German at home, but small populations of elderly (as well as some younger) speakers can be found in Pennsylvania (Amish, Hutterites, Dunkards and some Mennonites historically spoke Hutterite German and a West Central German variety of Pennsylvania Dutch), Kansas (Mennonites and Volga Germans), North Dakota (Hutterite Germans, Mennonites, Russian Germans, Volga Germans, and Baltic Germans), South Dakota, Montana, Texas (Texas German), Wisconsin, Indiana, Oregon, Louisiana and Oklahoma. A significant group of German Pietists in Iowa formed the Amana Colonies and continue to practice speaking their heritage language. Early twentieth century immigration was often to St. Louis, Chicago, New York, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.

[TheHippie]

I wonder how this will effect retention and enlistments. This would single handedly cause me to think twice before enlisting into any combat MOS.

[Housecarl]

Originally Posted by Troke

Nobody gets it. The goal is to remove the 'malignant' American Culture from the world scene; it's military, cultural and economic influence.

Put the US Military under a World Court and you have a problem?

Nope, just never let the US Military ever leave the confines of the US.

Problem solved.

And that is the goal.

Yup. And the two articles by Spengler I've posted goes to what will then happen to their multi-lateral utopia....

11/24 Asia Times Online|Spengler-When the cat's away ...
Housecarl

[johnnymac]

Originally Posted by Troke

Nobody gets it. The goal is to remove the 'malignant' American Culture from the world scene; it's military, cultural and economic influence.

Put the US Military under a World Court and you have a problem?

Nope, just never let the US Military ever leave the confines of the US.

Sure.

I would drop a memo to the UN, ICC and every other "global organization" and let them know the US military can no longer put itself at a liability and continue to provide heavy airlift and shipping for distribution of aid or emergency relief. I would remind them that the use of numerous military assets such as aircraft carriers, transports and helicopters after the tsunami in Southeast Asia was courtesy of the US military, for instance.

Considering the dangers of war crimes increase with military deployments, our military is only available for military missions which secure the borders of the US.

I am sure they can make arrangements with another country which has more than a dozen aircraft carriers, hundreds of heavy lift aircraft and thousands of trained crew for their next relief mission.

[Housecarl]

Originally Posted by TheHippie

I wonder how this will effect retention and enlistments. This would single handedly cause me to think twice before enlisting into any combat MOS.

Since everyone is a rifleman first, that won't help you at all.