FARM Wells Dry, Fertile Plains Turn to Dust

Cardinal

Chickministrator
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/u...hurting-farmers.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=1&

HASKELL COUNTY, Kan. — Forty-nine years ago, Ashley Yost’s grandfather sank a well deep into a half-mile square of rich Kansas farmland. He struck an artery of water so prodigious that he could pump 1,600 gallons to the surface every minute.

Last year, Mr. Yost was coaxing just 300 gallons from the earth, and pumping up sand in order to do it. By harvest time, the grit had robbed him of $20,000 worth of pumps and any hope of returning to the bumper harvests of years past.

“That’s prime land,” he said not long ago, gesturing from his pickup at the stubby remains of last year’s crop. “I’ve raised 294 bushels of corn an acre there before, with water and the Lord’s help.” Now, he said, “it’s over.”

The land, known as Section 35, sits atop the High Plains Aquifer, a waterlogged jumble of sand, clay and gravel that begins beneath Wyoming and South Dakota and stretches clear to the Texas Panhandle. The aquifer’s northern reaches still hold enough water in many places to last hundreds of years. But as one heads south, it is increasingly tapped out, drained by ever more intensive farming and, lately, by drought.

Vast stretches of Texas farmland lying over the aquifer no longer support irrigation. In west-central Kansas, up to a fifth of the irrigated farmland along a 100-mile swath of the aquifer has already gone dry. In many other places, there no longer is enough water to supply farmers’ peak needs during Kansas’ scorching summers.

And when the groundwater runs out, it is gone for good. Refilling the aquifer would require hundreds, if not thousands, of years of rains.

This is in many ways a slow-motion crisis — decades in the making, imminent for some, years or decades away for others, hitting one farm but leaving an adjacent one untouched. But across the rolling plains and tarmac-flat farmland near the Kansas-Colorado border, the effects of depletion are evident everywhere. Highway bridges span arid stream beds. Most of the creeks and rivers that once veined the land have dried up as 60 years of pumping have pulled groundwater levels down by scores and even hundreds of feet.

On some farms, big center-pivot irrigators — the spindly rigs that create the emerald circles of cropland familiar to anyone flying over the region — now are watering only a half-circle. On others, they sit idle altogether.

Two years of extreme drought, during which farmers relied almost completely on groundwater, have brought the seriousness of the problem home. In 2011 and 2012, the Kansas Geological Survey reports, the average water level in the state’s portion of the aquifer dropped 4.25 feet — nearly a third of the total decline since 1996.

And that is merely the average. “I know my staff went out and re-measured a couple of wells because they couldn’t believe it,” said Lane Letourneau, a manager at the State Agriculture Department’s water resources division. “There was a 30-foot decline.”

Kansas agriculture will survive the slow draining of the aquifer — even now, less than a fifth of the state’s farmland is irrigated in any given year — but the economic impact nevertheless will be outsized. In the last federal agriculture census of Kansas, in 2007, an average acre of irrigated land produced nearly twice as many bushels of corn, two-thirds more soybeans and three-fifths more wheat than did dry land.

Farmers will take a hit as well. Raising crops without irrigation is far cheaper, but yields are far lower. Drought is a constant threat: the last two dry-land harvests were all but wiped out by poor rains.

In the end, most farmers will adapt to farming without water, said Bill Golden, an agriculture economist at Kansas State University. “The revenue losses are there,” he said. “But they’re not as tremendously significant as one might think.”

Some already are. A few miles west of Mr. Yost’s farm, Nathan Kells cut back on irrigation when his wells began faltering in the last decade, and shifted his focus to raising dairy heifers — 9,000 on that farm, and thousands more elsewhere. At about 12 gallons a day for a single cow, Mr. Kells can sustain his herd with less water than it takes to grow a single circle of corn.

“The water’s going to flow to where it’s most valuable, whether it be industry or cities or feed yards,” he said. “We said, ‘What’s the higher use of the water?’ and decided that it was the heifer operation.”

The problem, others say, is that when irrigation ends, so do the jobs and added income that sustain rural communities.

“Looking at areas of Texas where the groundwater has really dropped, those towns are just a shell of what they once were,” said Jim Butler, a hydrogeologist and senior scientist at the Kansas Geological Survey.

The villain in this story is in fact the farmers’ savior: the center-pivot irrigator, a quarter- or half-mile of pipe that traces a watery circle around a point in the middle of a field. The center pivots helped start a revolution that raised farming from hardscrabble work to a profitable business.

Since the pivots’ debut some six decades ago, the amount of irrigated cropland in Kansas has grown to nearly three million acres, from a mere 250,000 in 1950. But the pivot irrigators’ thirst for water — hundreds and sometimes thousands of gallons a minute — has sent much of the aquifer on a relentless decline. And while the big pivots have become much more efficient, a University of California study earlier this year concluded that Kansas farmers were using some of their water savings to expand irrigation or grow thirstier crops, not to reduce consumption.

A shift to growing corn, a much thirstier crop than most, has only worsened matters. Driven by demand, speculation and a government mandate to produce biofuels, the price of corn has tripled since 2002, and Kansas farmers have responded by increasing the acreage of irrigated cornfields by nearly a fifth.

At an average 14 inches per acre in a growing season, a corn crop soaks up groundwater like a sponge — in 2010, the State Agriculture Department said, enough to fill a space a mile square and nearly 2,100 feet high.

Sorghum, or milo, gets by on a third less water, Kansas State University researchers say — and it, too, is in demand by biofuel makers. As Kansas’ wells peter out, more farmers are switching to growing milo on dry land or with a comparative sprinkle of irrigation water.

But as long as there is enough water, most farmers will favor corn. “The issue that often drives this is economics,” said David W. Hyndman, who heads Michigan State University’s geological sciences department. “And as long as you’ve got corn that’s $7, then a lot of choices get made on that.”

Of the 800 acres that Ashley Yost farmed last year in Haskell County, about 70 percent was planted in corn, including roughly 125 acres in Section 35. Haskell County’s feedlots — the county is home to 415,000 head of cattle — and ethanol plants in nearby Liberal and Garden City have driven up the price of corn handsomely, he said.

But this year he will grow milo in that section, and hope that by ratcheting down the speed of his pump, he will draw less sand, even if that means less water, too. The economics of irrigation, he said, almost dictate it.

“You’ve got $20,000 of underground pipe,” he said. “You’ve got a $10,000 gas line. You’ve got a $10,000 irrigation motor. You’ve got an $89,000 pivot. And you’re going to let it sit there and rot?

“If you can pump 150 gallons, that’s 150 gallons Mother Nature is not giving us. And if you can keep a milo crop alive, you’re going to do it.”

Mr. Yost’s neighbors have met the prospect of dwindling water in starkly different ways. A brother is farming on pivot half-circles. A brother-in-law moved most of his operations to Iowa. Another farmer is suing his neighbors, accusing them of poaching water from his slice of the aquifer.

A fourth grows corn with an underground irrigation system that does not match the yields of water-wasting center-pivot rigs, but is far thriftier in terms of water use and operating costs.

For his part, Mr. Yost continues to pump. But he also allowed that the day may come when sustaining what is left of the aquifer is preferable to pumping as much as possible.

Sitting in his Ford pickup next to Section 35, he unfolded a sheet of white paper that tracked the decline of his grandfather’s well: from 1,600 gallons a minute in 1964, to 1,200 in 1975, to 750 in 1976.

When the well slumped to 500 gallons in 1991, the Yosts capped it and drilled another nearby. Its output sank, too, from 1,352 gallons to 300 today.

This year, Mr. Yost spent more than $15,000 to drill four test wells in Section 35. The best of them produced 195 gallons a minute — a warning, he said, that looking further for an isolated pocket of water would be costly and probably futile.

“We’re on the last kick,” he said. “The bulk water is gone.”
 

Fedupgranny

Contributing Member
It is so stupid to be growing water intensive crops in a semi arid region. What is going to happen to all the small towns when the aquifer levels drop so low that the city wells and farm wells are pumping sand and mud...just drill deeper and continue to irrigate...ration water usage? When the water is gone it is truly gone in this area. I live two counties away from Haskell county and we have only have 2 inches of rain since the first of the year. Farmers are going to have to change the way they farm to conserve water for the future generations.
 

sssarawolf

We're just plugging along.
I remember many years ago they tried to get these farmers to switch to something else to water their crops, even back to old fashion irrigation to help save the aquifers. They didn't and wouldn't do it.
We knew around 30 years ago this day would come and if you can't do dry land farming you would be done. They do dry land farming all around us for wheat, oats, barley, rape, all kinds of beans and peas.
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
How are they going to save the environment if they don't have corn for ethanol?



(Yes, I meant that to be sarcastic!)
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
I remember many years ago they tried to get these farmers to switch to something else to water their crops, even back to old fashion irrigation to help save the aquifers. They didn't and wouldn't do it.
We knew around 30 years ago this day would come and if you can't do dry land farming you would be done. They do dry land farming all around us for wheat, oats, barley, rape, all kinds of beans and peas.



Years ago many farmers filled in ponds that were on their property just so they would have more tillable land for crops and I don't understand their way of thinking.
 

GunGirl

Contributing Member
Center-pivot irrigation is the stupidest way to irrigate. Only about a quarter of the water sprayed out of those things ever even hits the ground. Of course, you can just turn on a pivot, while you have to run around evenings to move pipe for the old way of irrigation.

Perhaps we need to give tax breaks to farmers who are installing the underground soaker hose-style irrigation? There are a few fields near where I grew up that use that method, and you almost never hear the well motor running, and the fields have the most beautiful green corn.
 

SquonkHunter

Geezer (ret.)
I have heard tales of how freely (wastefully) irrigation was used in the Texas Panhandle area in the great 1950s drought. It boggles the modern mind.
 

Kaydee

Veteran Member
My Dad in SW KS (further west than Haskell County) saw this coming over 30 years ago. My family has always been all dryland, and I've seen the long drawn out process of converting former irrigated land back to dryland farming when we picked up a quarter here and there that HAD been irrigated.

It will take 10-15 years of work on a field to get it reasonably productive again under dryland farming; how long depends on how long it was irrigated. Farming practices are totally different between dryland and irrigated, from tillage style to weed control and fertilizing, and even in cropping. Dryland in that area is going heavily toward no-till, with occasional chemical weed control, and farming is geared toward conserving the moisture in the ground. Dryland fields often have fallow years or crop rotations (wheat, milo/sorgum, sunflowers) that maximize soil fertility with minimal chemical and fertilizer needs while irrigated fields due to costs must constantly maximize production--often at the expense of the soil. Then the irrigated and depleted soil needs heavier fertilizing, heavier weed control (due to the presence of water!)and constant cropping which becomes a vicious circular cycle.

If the irrigated field loses its water supply and has to be dryland farmed the first years are mostly soil remediation: Adding back organic matter through manure and cover crops, keeping something growing on it so it doesn't blow away. Wheat will be lucky to produce 10 bu. to the acre that first year without water other than rain (somewhere between 10 and 20 inches in a good normal non-drought year). Irrigation leaves heavy concentrations of minerals on the field from the groundwater, and depletes nutrients through runoff and constant cropping (along with the questionable quality of some farmland before irrigation, i.e. sandhill corn circles, etc.).

The 10-15 year estimate is also low for conversion of some fields, my brother and Dad finally got one quarter section into decent dryland wheat production a few years ago that had not been irrigated for almost 25 years. With the current drought in the area the main focus the last couple years has been simply keeping that field covered and not blowing away.
 

dogmanan

Inactive
I knew all this corn growing would be the death of are soils and water tables.

They need to quit growning so much corn year after year after year on the same land, and what ever happen to grow six years and then let the land rest for a year, GOD said that's the way you take care of the land.

What it really boils down to is monsantos and their poison shit for they put out,I feel they are a company controlled by the devil.
 
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dogmanan

Inactive
What the hell ever happen to crop rotation, they don't seem to do that any more, corn and soybeans, corn and soybeans, and they are not very good food crops, infact they are at the bottom of the scale for good healthy food.
 
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Vtshooter

Inactive
@dogmanan, I think the answer you are looking for is $$$$, and they will ride this road until they can't go any further. Then throw hands in the air, and go "oh hell. Now what do we do?" Of course, I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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Greed? Have you ever invested a million bucks into a couple hundred acres of land, then spent another million on machinery... only to find that your best possible profit may be around $100 per acre? *right now* grain farmers are making out very well, thanks to ethanol and the drought. But that's after decades where they often only broke even 2 years out of 5, and sometimes didn't make a profit more than one year out of ten.

So growing the crop YOUR BANKER SAYS YOU MUST, because that crop is one of only a very FEW which are generally likely to be profitable, is GREED?

Wow.

Summerthyme
 

Kaydee

Veteran Member
Yes u be wright ,it is about money and greed.

It may be about money and greed for the big commercial corporate farms (the kind that hire managers and employees but whose stockholders and "owners" have probably never set foot on the land), but for the normal farm it is about breaking even and if lucky getting enough return on investment that they can afford to live.

Land costs+equipment costs+fuel costs+seed costs+fertilizers and herbicides OR increased equipment use and fuel costs+labor+harvesting, storage, marketing costs= bottom line income needed from the property to stay in business.

Almost 40 years ago farmers got excited over wheat prices approaching $4!! As every other price paid is more than double today (utilities, housing, food, fuel, equipment, seed, etc.) wheat prices are around $7 a bushel. Dad currently figures about 25 bushels to the acre of wheat is needed just to pay crop costs on paid off dryland, up to 35 bu/acre on financed land. This does not include labor and costs associated wit the harvested crop. Since dryland wheat production in many areas ranges from 30-50 bushels per acre (with rain!) the payoff is thin at best, and leaves little margin to allow for rotation of less expensive (and less return) crops or "time off" for the land.

Irrigated crops have even higher expenses.

So what would you all have farmers do? Should they struggle along for most of their life making little to survive on, working themselves into an early grave while they feed their family on what the wife makes as a teacher or nurse or other job in the small farming community nearby? Then when prices drop through the floor or an extended drought comes along they end up surrendering the whole shebang to the bank and a corporation backed by Monsanto or ADM comes along and buys it for pennies on the dollar. I've seen too many farm auctions, held the hands of crying friends, seen the displaced farmers broken monetarily and in health and spirit.

Cry money and greed all you want, but it's not at the farmer level. The average loaf of bread in a store has $.05 to $.10 worth of wheat in it, depending on loaf size, store markups and current wheat prices. The rest of the cost goes to everyone BUT the farmer. SO they grow corn and anything else that might make a slightly bigger profit, debate whether irrigation might help, baby along the equipment for awhile longer. Farmers are the eternal optimist constantly telling themselves "Next year will be better". And everyone else merrily goes along blaming the farmer for all the woes they perceive. The farmer and his family are less than 2% of our population, and too busy to worry about blame thrown at them by the clueless.

Sure, we could return the halcyon days of the 50's, ala Pleasantville. Look for your prices of anything containing grain to quadruple! Since 1950 farmers have increased production by well over 250% while decreasing inputs of water, seed, fertilizers and chemicals by up to 10%, and halved the amount of labor required.
 
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naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Greed? Have you ever invested a million bucks into a couple hundred acres of land, then spent another million on machinery... only to find that your best possible profit may be around $100 per acre? *right now* grain farmers are making out very well, thanks to ethanol and the drought. But that's after decades where they often only broke even 2 years out of 5, and sometimes didn't make a profit more than one year out of ten.

So growing the crop YOUR BANKER SAYS YOU MUST, because that crop is one of only a very FEW which are generally likely to be profitable, is GREED?

Wow.

Summerthyme

Non farmers are used to getting a paycheck each and every month, and unemployment checks if they are unexpectedly laid off. They don't stop to think that farmers don't have that luxury.

This really is a long term killer for ethanol. Hopefully, they can find ways to recharge the aquifers or save up their winter rain/snow for use in growing crops. Otherwise, it's back to dryland farming. Which has never been any fun is only profitable in the rare year when the rain comes at the exact right time, and the prices are high.
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
In our area, we are not in an overdraft position. Unfortunately, CA is high centered on "water conservation." They helped pay for farmers to install center pivots so that water could be conserved for salmon. A pivot will water only the root zone of the plant. What is not consumed by the plant through transpiration, is lost from evaporation. There is virtually no recharge to the aquifer. Evaporation may be greater than for flood irrigation . Flood irrigation, where they flood the field, may look more wasteful, but is it? The transpiration of the plant is likely the same. The evaporation may be less because of less exposure to wind. Some of the water deep percolates to recharge the aquifer. Some flows closer to the surface following the slope of the land through the spaces between grains of soil. It moves slowly through clay and faster through loam. It moves to the low point of the river where it feeds flow.

[Aquifers are not underground lakes. They are layers of soil where water fills the space between particles. Layers near the surface that have been cultivated may be looser and water may move faster through them. It may take a hundred years to move through soil at lower levels]

In western arid areas, precipitation is all in winter. Flood irrigation essentially delays the heavy winter flows that would go out of valleys and down to the sea by several weeks. It reroutes the water to the deep aquifer for storage and through subsurface soils where it extends its stay before returning to the river. It feeds flows later into the season when there is no precipitation.

Well meaning urbanites who do not understand the ways of water have actually exacerbated the problems of flow for salmon through misplaced conservation policies. In the west, overstocked forests have also paid a heavy role as their canopies intercept snow from reaching the ground and increase evaporation. Also they transpire water, leaving less to flow downriver for farmlands and salmon.
 
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dogmanan

Inactive
OK OK Don't get your panties in a big bunch.

When I was talking greed I was talking about the big mega farms that are burning all this water up,owned by Monsanto type companys.

Was never talking about greed and the small local farmer ok.

So pull the panties out of the crack and chill, i'm on your side.
 

tm1439m

Veteran Member
Greed? Have you ever invested a million bucks into a couple hundred acres of land, then spent another million on machinery... only to find that your best possible profit may be around $100 per acre? *right now* grain farmers are making out very well, thanks to ethanol and the drought. But that's after decades where they often only broke even 2 years out of 5, and sometimes didn't make a profit more than one year out of ten.

So growing the crop YOUR BANKER SAYS YOU MUST, because that crop is one of only a very FEW which are generally likely to be profitable, is GREED?

Wow.

Summerthyme

You yourself just pointed out that your farm is in fact a "Greed" driven farm. It may not be you that are the greedy one but the bank controls you as you have said. The ultimate actions taken by the average farmer unless they are independently wealthy is a greed driven operation should they be controlled by a bank. Then the seed companies design their product in ways that require the application of weed killers and fertilizers. They patent the product and make it where seed saving is illegal so you have to continue to buy more seed and the required products to make that seed "profitable". I believe that is the Greed Dogmanan was speaking of. Then if you try to operate in a more sustainable fashion you will likely not be able to compete so therefore you are forced to go after higher yields in order to keep up because the standards are set for higher yields. Hence inadvertently you are now driven by greed through no fault of you own.

We still appreciate you but I call a horse a horse.

I think most here would see that ultimately most farms are at least in some way "greed driven",through no fault of their own, weather it be Monsanto, Banks or other outside forces. That does not make the individual a greedy person.

And by the way, Summerthyme, I think you are a very good person. I m sure you are a very good farmer as well. ;)
 

dogmanan

Inactive
You yourself just pointed out that your farm is in fact a "Greed" driven farm. It may not be you that are the greedy one but the bank controls you as you have said. The ultimate actions taken by the average farmer unless they are independently wealthy is a greed driven operation should they be controlled by a bank. Then the seed companies design their product in ways that require the application of weed killers and fertilizers. They patent the product and make it where seed saving is illegal so you have to continue to buy more seed and the required products to make that seed "profitable". I believe that is the Greed Dogmanan was speaking of. Then if you try to operate in a more sustainable fashion you will likely not be able to compete so therefore you are forced to go after higher yields in order to keep up because the standards are set for higher yields. Hence inadvertently you are now driven by greed through no fault of you own.

We still appreciate you but I call a horse a horse.

I think most here would see that ultimately most farms are at least in some way "greed driven",through no fault of their own, weather it be Monsanto, Banks or other outside forces. That does not make the individual a greedy person.

And by the way, Summerthyme, I think you are a very good person. I m sure you are a very good farmer as well. ;)




Yes what he said my mind is still foggy this morning.
 

Kent

Inactive
I knew all this corn growing would be the death of are soils and water tables.

They need to quit growning so much corn year after year after year on the same land, and what ever happen to grow six years and then let the land rest for a year, GOD said that's the way you take care of the land.

What it really boils down to is monsantos and their poison shit for they put out,I feel they are a company controlled by the devil.

How do Monsanto product deplete the aquifer? Why are farmers greedy and factory workers, or tradesmen, are not greedy?
 

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
My Dad in SW KS (further west than Haskell County) saw this coming over 30 years ago. My family has always been all dryland, and I've seen the long drawn out process of converting former irrigated land back to dryland farming when we picked up a quarter here and there that HAD been irrigated.

It will take 10-15 years of work on a field to get it reasonably productive again under dryland farming; how long depends on how long it was irrigated. Farming practices are totally different between dryland and irrigated, from tillage style to weed control and fertilizing, and even in cropping. Dryland in that area is going heavily toward no-till, with occasional chemical weed control, and farming is geared toward conserving the moisture in the ground. Dryland fields often have fallow years or crop rotations (wheat, milo/sorgum, sunflowers) that maximize soil fertility with minimal chemical and fertilizer needs while irrigated fields due to costs must constantly maximize production--often at the expense of the soil. Then the irrigated and depleted soil needs heavier fertilizing, heavier weed control (due to the presence of water!)and constant cropping which becomes a vicious circular cycle.

If the irrigated field loses its water supply and has to be dryland farmed the first years are mostly soil remediation: Adding back organic matter through manure and cover crops, keeping something growing on it so it doesn't blow away. Wheat will be lucky to produce 10 bu. to the acre that first year without water other than rain (somewhere between 10 and 20 inches in a good normal non-drought year). Irrigation leaves heavy concentrations of minerals on the field from the groundwater, and depletes nutrients through runoff and constant cropping (along with the questionable quality of some farmland before irrigation, i.e. sandhill corn circles, etc.).

The 10-15 year estimate is also low for conversion of some fields, my brother and Dad finally got one quarter section into decent dryland wheat production a few years ago that had not been irrigated for almost 25 years. With the current drought in the area the main focus the last couple years has been simply keeping that field covered and not blowing away.

I am a sixth generation Kansas farmer (dryland-have farms in KS and MO) and Kaydee hit the nail on the head.

Palmetto
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Actually, we divested ourselves of any banker interest in our farm just as fast as we were able to... Even though that meant we still farm with antique equipment and live very simply.

I'm sorry, but it's becoming increasingly obvious on these boards that the Commies have won. PROFIT DOES NOT EQUAL GREED. As NaturallySweet astutely pointed out, most folks here have no concept of living without a steady paycheck and all the safety nets. Self employed farmers have none of those.

I'm really stunned at the class envy (for lack of a better term) shown these days by far too many supposed "freedom loving" Americans. I've learned over the years that you can NOT judge how well any particular farmer (or non-farmer, for that matter) by how fancy their house is or how new of vehicles they drive. Some of the ones who look the "richest" are actually so deep in debt that they'll never dig their way out. And some who live very modestly are in fact, very "rich", in terms of net worth.

The public skools have done their work well.

Summerthyme
 

Tennessee gal

Veteran Member
Actually, we divested ourselves of any banker interest in our farm just as fast as we were able to... Even though that meant we still farm with antique equipment and live very simply.

I'm sorry, but it's becoming increasingly obvious on these boards that the Commies have won. PROFIT DOES NOT EQUAL GREED. As NaturallySweet astutely pointed out, most folks here have no concept of living without a steady paycheck and all the safety nets. Self employed farmers have none of those.

I'm really stunned at the class envy (for lack of a better term) shown these days by far too many supposed "freedom loving" Americans. I've learned over the years that you can NOT judge how well any particular farmer (or non-farmer, for that matter) by how fancy their house is or how new of vehicles they drive. Some of the ones who look the "richest" are actually so deep in debt that they'll never dig their way out. And some who live very modestly are in fact, very "rich", in terms of net worth.

The public skools have done their work well.

Summerthyme

When my husband was in seminary ( many years ago) he worked for a high end furniture company. The sales staff worked on commission . One day an old farmer in bib overhauls came in and was looking around. None of the sales reps. approached him. The sales manager just waited and watched. Finally he went over and spoke to the farmer. The old gent bought $10,000.00 worth of furniture and paid cash. The sales reps. learned an important message... don't judge a book by it's cover.
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
When my husband was in seminary ( many years ago) he worked for a high end furniture company. The sales staff worked on commission . One day an old farmer in bib overhauls came in and was looking around. None of the sales reps. approached him. The sales manager just waited and watched. Finally he went over and spoke to the farmer. The old gent bought $10,000.00 worth of furniture and paid cash. The sales reps. learned an important message... don't judge a book by it's cover.


Happens in agriculture as well. A manager at a place that sold farm machinery, told me a story about someone calling and asking about farm machinery. He gave the number to his sales people, and assumed that the customer had been taken care of.

3 weeks later, the potential customer called back and asked why no-one had returned his call. So the manager took care of him, himself. Sold him a brand new tractor, and all the equipment and cultivators that went along with it.

Then he went to his sales person and asked why the call hadn't been returned. The reply was that unless the persons last name was one of the 6 big farms in my area, then he wasn't going to waste his time with them.

Then the manager explained that the person with the non millionaire last name, had bought $30,000 worth of equipment, and the employee had just cost himself $3,000 in commission.

People pretend to love and support small farmers. In truth, it's us against the world.
 
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dogmanan

Inactive
Well all I got to say is what is in my mind and what I typed just did not come out wright, and i'm sorry for that, i'm also sorry for offending thoses that I did , that was not what I wanted to do.

I only was talking about the mega farms that farm in such a way as to use more then there share of water because of the farming methods they use, that's all.
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
A family farmer is not going to be motivated by "greed." (I interpret greed as exploiting the resources to the detriment of their future productivity.) Family farmers here have been on the ranch their ancestors settled five-6 generations ago. Their sons and daughters will inherit and generally farm as well. Why would they abuse the resource and destroy their children's future? Our farmers make an average of about $36,000 in income a year. The wife often works outside the home. I would not call that "greed."
 

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
Greed? Have you ever invested a million bucks into a couple hundred acres of land, then spent another million on machinery... only to find that your best possible profit may be around $100 per acre? *right now* grain farmers are making out very well, thanks to ethanol and the drought. But that's after decades where they often only broke even 2 years out of 5, and sometimes didn't make a profit more than one year out of ten.

So growing the crop YOUR BANKER SAYS YOU MUST, because that crop is one of only a very FEW which are generally likely to be profitable, is GREED?

Wow.

Summerthyme

+1

200 acres around here will cost you $1,400,000 to 1,600,000. Also for the uninformed, a new combine is $350,000, without the heads.
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
+1

200 acres around here will cost you $1,400,000 to 1,600,000. Also for the uninformed, a new combine is $350,000, without the heads.

And that new combine will be worth it's value in scrap 20 years later. (I've seen plenty go for $300 at auction, after they start it up and run it to prove that it works.) Although the old one will have been depreciated on the farmer's taxes, he will still have to find $350,000 to buy a new one.

This is why some of us value our antique equipment. Although, good luck finding someone else to fix it. Many repair shops won't even look at a piece of machinery that is older than 15-20 years.
 
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tm1439m

Veteran Member
Actually, we divested ourselves of any banker interest in our farm just as fast as we were able to... Even though that meant we still farm with antique equipment and live very simply.

I'm sorry, but it's becoming increasingly obvious on these boards that the Commies have won. PROFIT DOES NOT EQUAL GREED. As NaturallySweet astutely pointed out, most folks here have no concept of living without a steady paycheck and all the safety nets. Self employed farmers have none of those.

I'm really stunned at the class envy (for lack of a better term) shown these days by far too many supposed "freedom loving" Americans. I've learned over the years that you can NOT judge how well any particular farmer (or non-farmer, for that matter) by how fancy their house is or how new of vehicles they drive. Some of the ones who look the "richest" are actually so deep in debt that they'll never dig their way out. And some who live very modestly are in fact, very "rich", in terms of net worth.

The public skools have done their work well.

Summerthyme

You have written a story of your own life and then taken statements that apply to the OP and not your personal life and shown offense by them. That surprises me about you. This thread and the statements were not directed at you. Then your original statement was not even representative of what you now have to say about your situation yet you are taking offense after the fact and applied what was said about your previous statement to this new info you are telling now. No one thinks badly of you. Profit is a good thing.

Water is being exploited and the tables are being drained. They don't care enough about that to stop draining the wells. If that ain't greed what is? Same thing goes for the gulf courses and people who water every day so their chemically induce green lawns can look better than their neighbors. It's not about you it's about the OP.

I work for myself and run two successful businesses in partners with my son. No unemployment here. No benefits. No help getting them started and no help keeping them going. We save when there is work so we can have what is needed for the times when there is no work. We owe nothing and live very very cheaply. We have never owed one dime in either of these businesses. If you saw me on the street you would think I had very little. I wear fruit of the loom pocket "T's" 99% of the time and they are about 8 years old. Every one of them is light gray. A little stained here and there and a few with small holes forming but I am not to proud. My boots are worn and scratched to pieces but they still cover my feet.

It is easy to judge someone you don't know.
 

dogmanan

Inactive
A family farmer is not going to be motivated by "greed." (I interpret greed as exploiting the resources to the detriment of their future productivity.) Family farmers here have been on the ranch their ancestors settled five-6 generations ago. Their sons and daughters will inherit and generally farm as well. Why would they abuse the resource and destroy their children's future? Our farmers make an average of about $36,000 in income a year. The wife often works outside the home. I would not call that "greed."


Just so all you know what she said is great and not the farmers I directed any of my comments at.

And also just so you all know I farm with my cousin and some others and have done it off and on all my life, also I spent have of the summer before last fixing and rebuilding and old combine my cousion baught at a farm equipment junk yard, and also so you all know I know the cost of equipment and farming, so get the **** off my back ok.


Some very very thin skinned people on this board, that's for sure.
 

Rastech

Veteran Member
It's a pity Kansas is so far from the Gulf of Mexico, because by the end of this year, with Lockheed Martin's new desalination membrane, the cost of desalinated water (already cheap) is going to plummet.

Could a water pipe slowly expand its way from the Gulf via Texas? Do it a leg at a time to take in all the major centers, let profit pay for that leg, then do the next, and so on, then any surplus water gets run into the water table to steadily refill it?

I think each 'leg' of the route could be highly profitable, even if selling very cheap water.

At least there would be light at the end of the tunnel, that wasn't an express train coming the other way.

Heck even if most or all of the desalinated water went directly to drip agriculture, the speed the water table would likely recover should be quite fast.
 

tm1439m

Veteran Member
How do Monsanto product deplete the aquifer? Why are farmers greedy and factory workers, or tradesmen, are not greedy?

Who said anything about factory workers, or tradesman, or the fact that they are or are not greedy?

Where did all that come from?

So how do apples compare to beans. :spns:
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Who said anything about factory workers, or tradesman, or the fact that they are or are not greedy?

Where did all that come from?

So how do apples compare to beans. :spns:

I never hear about the greedy factory worker. Or the greedy tradesman. But I've heard many times about the greedy farmer.
 

cleobc

Veteran Member
The indoctrination has worked like this: the general public has been told over and over again that "agribusiness" has taken over farming and that most farms are owned by uncaring, greedy, giant corporations. I think the purpose of this propaganda has been to make city folks unfeeling when government runs farms out of business or takes their water. More than 90% of American farms are still family owned and run. Even corporations are run by human beings, not all of which are "greedy." "Greed" is the rallying cry of the socialist.
 
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