…… I have the opportunity to have a highly experienced gun builder build me an AR. Need ideas

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
But I've been reading that the heavier bullet weights (75/77 gr) are far better as "zombie stoppers" than the lighter loads. BTW, he also suggested I consider going to a 5.7x28 chambered rifle. He is clearly a supporter of that round. Thoughts, in terms of ammo availability, price and competency?
 

American Rage

Inactive
But I've been reading that the heavier bullet weights (75/77 gr) are far better as "zombie stoppers" than the lighter loads. BTW, he also suggested I consider going to a 5.7x28 chambered rifle. He is clearly a supported of that round. Thoughts, in terms of ammo availability, price and competency?

Ummmm, that's not a common caliber. I'd go 5.56 or 7.62X51 or 9mm, nothing else makes sense to me in an AR type rifle.
 

Rastech

Veteran Member
The cheapest way to get approaching MBR performance from an AR, if not going the Grendel route, is 6 x 45. Vast amounts of cheap/free brass to reload with, easy to neck up to 6mm, decide on your bullet weights (plenty of choice in 6mm), and get a nice low pressure load constructed for longevity and reduced stress. Accuracy should be fine if it is put together right, plus you would have an outstanding hunting tool at your disposal (600 yd headshots should be a piece of cake).

The Sierra 1560 should be a nice all rounder (about a 1:8 twist should be alright but get that checked *update, Black Hole barrels are all 1:9 twist now, and 100 gr seems fine from them http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22):

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&caliberID=4
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
But I've been reading that the heavier bullet weights (75/77 gr) are far better as "zombie stoppers" than the lighter loads. BTW, he also suggested I consider going to a 5.7x28 chambered rifle. He is clearly a supported of that round. Thoughts, in terms of ammo availability, price and competency?

IMHO, considering cost and availability I'd go with a 6.5 Grendel/AR, 6.8 SPC or .30 RAR before I went with the 5.7X28.
 

Rastech

Veteran Member
IMHO, considering cost and availability I'd go with a 6.5 Grendel/AR, 6.8 SPC or .30 RAR before I went with the 5.7X28.

I wouldn't go 6.8 as pressures for performance would be too high for me personally to be comfortable with (in an AR - bolt gun different matter). The Grendel is a real beaut, and the design deliberately included low pressure functioning.

It would be very easy to work up a really reliable and effective low pressure load with a 6 x 45 chambering too. {eta: I'd personally start with a H414 load with Remington BR primers, which should be very smooth shooting and very accurate, if using a 100gr bullet in 6 x 45 - should get 2,500 fps easy and well inside pressure limits, but personally I'd go with at least a 20" barrel, and more likely a 24", because I hate wasting powder and like bullets flying at their best by giving them a good send off}

PS some nice 6 x 45 info on this thread http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1356938 Plus some photo's to give you some idea's, whatever chambering you go with.

Also seems people are producing commercial 6 x 45, and Remington may be on the brink of introducing it in factory loads ("Also on Remington's website there is a survey asking what wildcat should be standardized and the 6X45mm is the top vote getter" from that link above).
 
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Dozdoats

Deceased
A .22 is still a .22. The heavier bullets buck wind better and penetrate better due to higher sectional density, but they still make a .22 hole. Even so, I'd stick with a .223 to get started, with a versatile barrel twist to shoot a variety of bullet weights (1:9 is what I prefer). Keep in mind you won't always be able to get the exact ammo you might prefer, and need to be able to shoot pretty much whatever fodder you can get. And there's a LOT of 55 gr. ball out there.

I wouldn't start out with any caliber in an AR other than .223 myself. Caliber change for most same-lower centerfire rifle calibers in an AR is a simple matter of changing uppers, and perhaps magazines, no big deal. .223 is the 9mm of CF rifle ammo, shoot what's cheap to learn to run the gun. Then if you want to play with a different round, you still have the .223 upper and mags to fall back on.
 

Brutus

Inactive
Dennis,

In a carbine configured AR (barrel of 14.5" w/ permanent flash suppressor or 16" without) the 55 gr. hardball will do fine for a carbine's intended purpose.

I hew toward what Dozdoats has said: .223/5.56 is a carbine round, so why build it into a rifle? Build a carbine. Out of the shorter barrels, the heavier ammo is not going to perform as well, unless you're talking about softpoints or hollowpoints. With FMJs out of the shorter barrels, the 55 gr. will f*** you up worse than polio at realistic carbine ranges -- 150-200 yards max.

I don't even know if I'd go to the trouble to have an AR carbine "built" per se. Buy a complete lower of reputable manufacture from a local dealer or at a gun show and then shop around on the 'net for a complete 16" flat-top upper. This isn't a race car after all. You buy an everyday car. You build a race car.

;)

ETA:

Also, I wouldn't concern myself with or go to the expense of a piston-driven AR. In my experience, which is strictly civilian, most of the operability problems of direct gas impingement operation in ARs/M-16s probably come from military use as "bullet hoses". I've got three ARs, all semi-auto, I've shot the piss out of all three, I rarely ever clean them as thoroughly as is recommended and they all go "bang" every time I pull the trigger. Keep a big aerosol can of BreakFree and hose down the innards regularly and you shouldn't have any trouble with a direct gas AR in civilian use. The main condition an AR doesn't like is dry and dirty. Wet and dirty is OK. Dry and dirty, not so much.

;)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
What's a "P mag"? Got a link? Or a "Beta-C" mag for that matter?

BTW, one of the biggest benefits of this is that it will be a "private sale." There will be no 4473. That alone is worth something...
 

American Rage

Inactive

Brutus

Inactive
What's a "P mag"? Got a link? Or a "Beta-C" mag for that matter?

BTW, one of the biggest benefits of this is that it will be a "private sale." There will be no 4473. That alone is worth something...

P mags are the latest "flavor-of-the-month" for AR aficionados. Yes, they're a good mag, but like anything that has gotten extremely popular, you have to wade through a lot of hype. My personal faves are C Products black stainless steel mags, but they're out of stock most places. They were available awhile back at some killer deals and no way an aluminum or plastic mag will EVER hold up as well as a stainless steel mag.

Beta C mags are a drum-type 100 round (or more) mag.
 

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Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
It's all I can do to keep up with the waves of maddening, impossible crap washing over us every day, KWIM?


And how the hell would you load one of those Beta-C's?? And how LONG would it take to load?


C Products black stainless steel mags

Link?



This isn't going to be a "can run a million rounds through it" gun. It's going to be a SHTF, "when you absolutely, positively, have to fight your way out in a hurry" weapon. That's what I'm trying to spec-out, mags and all. Plastic mags and I have a "spotty" relationship over the years. I wouldn't trust them if my life were on the line.
 

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
It's all I can do to keep up with the waves of maddening, impossible crap washing over us every day, KWIM?


And how the hell would you load one of those Beta-C's?? And how LONG would it take to load?


C Products black stainless steel mags

Link?



This isn't going to be a "can run a million rounds through it" gun. It's going to be a SHTF, "when you absolutely, positively, have to fight your way out in a hurry" weapon. That's what I'm trying to spec-out, mags and all. Plastic mags and I have a "spotty" relationship over the years. I wouldn't trust them if my life were on the line.

Dennis, the P-Mags don't fail (unlike the old Mini 14 or Israeli Oralite mags.) Good stuff.

Magpul makes them. Link:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG211/3

Beta-C 100 round mags aren't difficult to load. You can load the first 40 rounds with your fingers (it comes with a loader.) It takes about 4 minutes to load. They use a graphite
powder as a lubricant (NO oil) and it is a little messy if you unload. However, you have 100 rounds
in an instant without having to reload.

Benefits:

1. FIREPOWER

2. Good balance.



http://betaco.com/

Also,

A review from Brownells:




One more note: Brownells.com has a free AR Catalog.
 
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Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father

Have to pay a $200 Fed Tax for that 10.5 in barrel (SBR under the NFA.) Lots of paperwork and regulations.

If you are going to do all that, you might as well go for a Form 4 weapon.

If you have an upper that is barreled less than 16" (14.5 plus perm attached flashhider that is at least 1.5" is OK) AND you have one lower receiver, you
are in possession of an illegal NFA weapon, regardless of whether the upper is on the receiver or not. They are legal to own, but not if you have a lower.

10 years/$100,000 fine type felony.

It is best to stay away from short barrels unless you have NFA paperwork.

Also, FWIW, stay away from the AK74 style muzzle brakes unless you don't value your hearing.

I prefer the Phantom or the Vortex flashhiders. The Phantom is my first choice.

Palmetto
 

Marthanoir

TB Fanatic
Have to pay a $200 Fed Tax for that 10.5 in barrel (SBR under the NFA.) Lots of paperwork and regulations.

If you are going to do all that, you might as well go for a Form 4 weapon.

If you have an upper that is barreled less than 16" (14.5 plus perm attached flashhider that is at least 1.5" is OK) AND you have one lower receiver, you
are in possession of an illegal NFA weapon, regardless of whether the upper is on the receiver or not.

10 years/$100,000 fine type felony.

It is best to stay away from short barrels unless you have NFA paperwork.

Also, FWIW, stay away from the AK74 style muzzle brakes unless you don't value your hearing.

I prefer the Phantom or the Vortex flashhiders. The Phantom is my first choice.

Palmetto

yeah we don't have to worry about any of that on this side of the pond, that's only for you guys in the Land of the Free ;)
they do a tasty little 7.5" 9mm too

View attachment 92819

There's a point, how come the NFA regs have never been overturned, it was brought in as a revenue making procedure, how come no firearm friendly admin has ever over turned it?

eta : yeah i like the vortex too, or a Reflex suppressor http://www.reflexsuppressors.co.uk/

The brake on the short barrel AK is supposed to work quite well from what i heard,
View attachment 92821
 

Lone_Hawk

Resident Spook
But I've been reading that the heavier bullet weights (75/77 gr) are far better as "zombie stoppers" than the lighter loads. BTW, he also suggested I consider going to a 5.7x28 chambered rifle. He is clearly a supporter of that round. Thoughts, in terms of ammo availability, price and competency?

The 5.7 uppers for AR platforms are available, the mag holds 50rds, and ammo is running $25 a box.
 

Dozdoats

Deceased
Dennis,

I'm gonna harp on this one more time then drop it.

Just OWNING the AR won't do much good, other than giving you something else neat to fondle. You have to know how to run the gun, and learning that takes training and trigger time. No, not 'a million rounds,' but 1000 to 1500 rounds through the gun in three or four days for a good basic carbine class, and a basic class will need you being reflexively safe handling the gun (muzzle control, trigger finger discipline, mechanical safety discipline) and already having some basic familiarity with running the gun when you get there. No firearm, no matter how cool it is, is a talisman that will keep away evil by its mere presence.

And then it takes continuing practice to lock in what's learned in class. No, you won't get what a good current instructor will teach from normal military and LE training either. The state of the art is being advanced in the civilian run training schools these days, though admittedly some of the best out there right now have come from .mil backgrounds - Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Larry Vickers etc.

Mindset, skillset, toolset. And only the last one comes in a box...
 

eXe

Techno Junkie
I have a few magpul mags but for the most part I use USGI 30 round mags, upgraded springs (Chrome silicon) and magpul followers. For the most part with magpul followers in ANY mag you will not have issues. I probably have over 400 of them now upgraded like this thanks to some large group buys over the years.

Hey Dennis, if you can make it out to Nevada sometime, you should look into Front Sight. All the BS of the past from them aside, the training is awesome for you to get familiar with the AR, run it, and learn it inside out in either a 2 day or 4 day class. They even let you camp your RV on site, so no hotels Or you could just stay here lol :) We have put up a few of our friends who are going to front sight over the years in our guest room. During the down time after class, I can pretty much teach you anything you need to know about the AR system.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
dd, I understand everything you're telling me. A couple points if I may, and feel free to comment on these. First, there is NO WAY a fat old fart like me would ever be able to run a course. Second, I don't know where any such courses are around here. Third, it's over 100° here now, and won't cool off until September. So, that's not going to work for me, at least for now. However, I've been a shooter for 35 years or so. I know how to shoot and field strip every gun I own. The builder is going to teach me how to maintain this gun down to the pins. He's going to provide me with a spares kit and the tools I'll need.

Further, overall I am very mechanically inclined, so once shown, I remember it. As to bbl twist, all the recommendations have taught me that 1:9 is the way to go, though I'll probably run 62 gr rather than 55. In terms of the disciplines that you describe, I like to think I already have those down. Not that we don't need to keep drilling, but in general, I'm usually the safest person on the range :D. I hope this addresses a few of your (valid) concerns. I'll never be a combat guy, I just want a firearm that A) is off-paper, and B) will give me at least a fighting chance against the zombie hordes. At least for a few minutes, which would hopefully allow me to withdraw the area. Rapidly.

I'm a sniper (heh), not a toe-to-toe fighter. We old fat guys gotta do it that way.
 

Dozdoats

Deceased
Dennis,

Gunfights are what THEY want to be - not what the participants want them to be.

At least half of a gunfight is not getting shot. Only half of it is shooting.

Good instructors teach their students - ALL their students. At the level the students can manage. This isn't Delta selection we're talking here. A 3-day class IS long, no doubt about it. And grueling, especially in the summer (I did my first one in NC in May). It IS demanding, yes. But gunfights aren't picnics, and the stress and adrenalin dump is only partly - yes, PARTLY - equaled by what happens in class. Learning how to run the gun with a fogged-up brain is the best reason in the world for taking a good class. A good instructor knows that, and will impose more stress than most can imagine taking place on a flat range.

Paul Howe's place in in Nacogdoches, if you want to go world class. Here's his note to students-


NOTE TO STUDENTS:
I welcome all good Americans to train with CSAT. LE, Military, Contractors, Civilians are all welcome.
I will treat you professionally if you act professionally.
For example, if you are a professional contractor and act accordingly, I will treat you with the respect due someone who is overseas protecting America’s interests. If you act like an immature Army Spec 4. I will also treat you accordingly. If you’re arrogant or rude, in my mind you are an overpaid security guard who I should not waste my time critiquing and will shortly remove you from the course.
Feel free to bring cameras, notebooks and recording equipment. Take notes. Do not post any video or recordings on the internet without first getting my permission.
Ask questions.
Don’t argue, nod your head and take care of business. Generally I have been watching you make the mistake several times before I addressed you with a correction. You are paying me for feedback accept it or ignore it, but don’t be rude.
I don’t care what rifle or pistol you shoot. I will teach you how to shoot your weapon better and keep it running. Don’t be a shooting snob. Most snobs don’t know how much they don’t know and come with a closed mind and cannot shoot to any degree of proficiency.
If you are a gamer, leave that attitude and gear somewhere else. If you shoot accurate and well slick with a comp, red dot and Gucci gun, good for you. Do it all in your tactical gear with your combat rifle and I will be impressed. I would then be happy to shake your hand and recognize you in front of the group.
If you have one of those obnoxious compensators that annoy all shooters around you, leave it at home. If you don’t, you will find yourself on one end of the line by yourself. It also bothers us.
Do not mistake my laid back attitude for not caring or for not having a combat mindset. I do care and I still have an aggressive combat mindset that I keep in its place.
Make sure your mind is right, heart is pure and you endeavor to stay humble and train hard and we will get along…
- http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/about.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------

At least leave room for some professional training in your thinking- no need to worry about deciding who/when/where right now. Getting the time to do a class was always the biggest difficulty for me while I was still working.

Most shooters, I'd guess well over 90%, don't ever seek professional training. Most think they don't need it, and a lot of folks get away without having it. I see mostly the same faces no matter where I go for training. Training is pretty much another one of those questions of odds versus stakes. Thing is, most of us for all of our lives so far have never run much of a chance of really needing a gun, and using one was even further down on the percentages.

There's a flock of little birdies out there telling me that's very likely to change in the years just ahead. It's just one more aspect of prepping as far as I'm concerned...

Please excuse me for dragging this thread so far off into the weeds, but it's a topic that's important to me, and just owning a gun by itself just won't cut it when the chips are down. I'll leave it alone now on this thread, promise.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
I'd love to get the training. I just don't know if I could handle the heat. And I have no idea as to cost. And what would I do with the pups? No idea.
 

Brutus

Inactive
As to bbl twist, all the recommendations have taught me that 1:9 is the way to go, though I'll probably run 62 gr rather than 55.
Dennis, if you're talking about full metal jacketed military hardball, 62 grain does not do well as far as stopping power out of less than a 20" barrel, regardless of twist rate. It was designed for the M-16A2, not the M-4. Twist rate has mostly to do with accuracy. Barrel length has to do with velocity. 62 grain does not develop enough velocity out of a 16" barrel to "go haywire" when it hits a human target and cause immediately incapacitating injury.

If you're going with a carbine length barrel and planning on using FMJ military hardball, stick with 55 grain.

;)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
*sigh*


Everything I thought I knew (and very little at that) has proven to be wrong. Fine. I can change to 55's over time.
 

Roscoe's Daddy

Veteran Member
One of my former neighbors at the RV park has a brother who is ex-mil, and an accomplished custom gun builder. We talked today about building an AR for me. I know absolutely nothing about them really. So I'm asking you folks for ideas as to what components I should ask for in this build. Trying to keep the cost reasonable if possible. And I won't be getting it built unless I get extended, so right now it's a theoretical exercise.

Any ideas for components would be appreciated. Thanks!

Stay with Colt made parts. Ken Elmore at Specialized Armament Warehouse in AZ (specializedarmament.com) builds the best heavy duty guns, period.
 

L.A.B.

CV19 West Coast 1st Battalion “Maverick’s”
Someone up the thread already stated: (I'm paraphrasing)-> A carbine round should be shot from a carbine platform. Once your 5.56 platform begins to compete in weight with the various .30 caliber assault or battle rifles then it's time to sign up for longer ranges and other ballistic potentials.

If you've ever had a chance to run 400 yards with an CAR-15 or mil-grade equivalent, and then attempt that same run with a full sized M-1 A / M-14 or Garand, you will appreciate the inherit designs of each and the reasons thereof.

The 5.56 rifle should feel like a sword while in motion; not like a greyhound bus with bells & whistle's simply because you have rails to support them.
 
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Roscoe's Daddy

Veteran Member
Dennis, if you're talking about full metal jacketed military hardball, 62 grain does not do well as far as stopping power out of less than a 20" barrel, regardless of twist rate. It was designed for the M-16A2, not the M-4. Twist rate has mostly to do with accuracy. Barrel length has to do with velocity. 62 grain does not develop enough velocity out of a 16" barrel to "go haywire" when it hits a human target and cause immediately incapacitating injury.

If you're going with a carbine length barrel and planning on using FMJ military hardball, stick with 55 grain.

;)


We must agree to disagree a bit on this. If you can keep the actual impact velocity at about 2700, the bullet can often (never always) break at the cannelure. You can get that sort of velocity out of a 16, or even a 14.5 inch barrel. What you do lose of course, is range.
 

SmithJ

Veteran Member
dd, I understand everything you're telling me. A couple points if I may, and feel free to comment on these. First, there is NO WAY a fat old fart like me would ever be able to run a course. Second, I don't know where any such courses are around here. Third, it's over 100° here now, and won't cool off until September. So, that's not going to work for me, at least for now. However, I've been a shooter for 35 years or so. I know how to shoot and field strip every gun I own. The builder is going to teach me how to maintain this gun down to the pins. He's going to provide me with a spares kit and the tools I'll need.

Further, overall I am very mechanically inclined, so once shown, I remember it. As to bbl twist, all the recommendations have taught me that 1:9 is the way to go, though I'll probably run 62 gr rather than 55. In terms of the disciplines that you describe, I like to think I already have those down. Not that we don't need to keep drilling, but in general, I'm usually the safest person on the range :D. I hope this addresses a few of your (valid) concerns. I'll never be a combat guy, I just want a firearm that A) is off-paper, and B) will give me at least a fighting chance against the zombie hordes. At least for a few minutes, which would hopefully allow me to withdraw the area. Rapidly.

I'm a sniper (heh), not a toe-to-toe fighter. We old fat guys gotta do it that way.

1) What does "off-paper" do for you after you announced on a open forum that you're buying it?

And 2) if you're gonna be sniping you have the M77. An old fat guy like you that can't run a course is not gonna be carrying that M77 and an AR very far.....

(not being argumentative) Honestly, my suggestion would be ditch the mini and the M77. Downsize and get a nice AK. You've said you're not gonna be training. That AK will be more dependable and simpler to maintain with little training. Use the extra money for a red dot sight and you'll be more effective than you would be with the M77.

(and I only said old and fat cause you did) :)

Edit to add- most people don't realize how far 100 yards is. I can't imagine you needing to make a shot further than that- and it would be a cake walk with an AK and a red dot.
 

Brutus

Inactive
*sigh*


Everything I thought I knew (and very little at that) has proven to be wrong. Fine. I can change to 55's over time.

It's nothing to get discouraged about -- it's just a learning process like anything else.

When you say, "I can change to 55's over time" I take that to mean that you've already got a good supply of 62's laid in?

62s usually sell for a bit more than 55s so you ought to be able to do a trade with somebody and get a little cash to boot. May take some looking and doing, but it could be done.

:)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Doesn't matter what I announce. This would be a private sale is all. I'm known to the builder and the family, so legality isn't an issue. While I'd consider dumping the mini, the .300 is my primary hunting rifle.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
1) What does "off-paper" do for you after you announced on a open forum that you're buying it?

And 2) if you're gonna be sniping you have the M77. An old fat guy like you that can't run a course is not gonna be carrying that M77 and an AR very far.....

(not being argumentative) Honestly, my suggestion would be ditch the mini and the M77. Downsize and get a nice AK. You've said you're not gonna be training. That AK will be more dependable and simpler to maintain with little training. Use the extra money for a red dot sight and you'll be more effective than you would be with the M77.

(and I only said old and fat cause you did) :)

Of course the other option would be to get a 20" or 24" upper for the AR lower with a quality scope and swap as "necessary".

A well built AK can give you very good accuracy and there are a lot of extra offerings in irons and scope mounts to assist in that. ETA: It is just that you don't have a modular/changeable "system". What you've got is it without a lot of gun smithing, but it will run with a lot of neglect.

In the end they are all tools in the tool box....
 

SmithJ

Veteran Member
What do you hunt and when's the last time you went? There's nothing in TX you need that .300 for.....
 
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