…… I have the opportunity to have a highly experienced gun builder build me an AR. Need ideas

One of my former neighbors at the RV park has a brother who is ex-mil, and an accomplished custom gun builder. We talked today about building an AR for me. I know absolutely nothing about them really. So I'm asking you folks for ideas as to what components I should ask for in this build. Trying to keep the cost reasonable if possible. And I won't be getting it built unless I get extended, so right now it's a theoretical exercise.

Any ideas for components would be appreciated. Thanks!

Mid length, free floated barrel, pick a handguard to accommodate your budget
Mega, BCM, PSA and CMMG are all fine uppers, Magpul .mil collapsable stock.

Dennis we just pretty much completed a multi-page thread on this.
You can read it here: AR LINK
You can just skip to page four - that's where the OP decided to go with an AR and advice started going that way.
You will quickly see that Kolt knows what of he speaks. If you give me an email address I will attempt to link you two up - he helped me build mine and knows a lot more than I do.

I am at: joe@vikingpreparedness.com

Are there any upper or lower mfrs to stay away from?

Dennis, I wonder - if I get him the wool, will he make me one.

I really don't know. He's here in Texas. Where are you?

Genuinely critical things are the barrel and bolt carrier group. Don't scrimp on those, quality counts. The fire control parts are critical also, I prefer milspec GI configuration with a little extra polishing on the engagement surfaces for those, for durability. The lower and upper receivers mostly hold the operating parts in proper positions, as long as they are within spec it makes little difference whose name is on them. Barrel length, stock configuration and sighting systems are all a matter of personal preference.

To me, an AR is a carbine, simply because it shoots a carbine round. Might as well build it as a carbine far as I'm concerned. I prefer a light contour 16" barrel and collapsible stock, you'll spend a LOT more time carrying the thing around than shooting it, and light/short/simple is better IMHO. In time of genuine need it'll be hung around your neck like a necktie for days on end and if it's long, heavy and bolted all over with snaggy bling it'll be even more in the way and more of a hassle than necessary. Don't forget, you'll be carrying several spare magazines, a sidearm and some other crap to boot, not just the carbine.

Look at the configuration of the various "shooting school specific" ARs and you'll see what I mean, Tiger McKee's Katana for example.

I have owned 4 AR 15s. 2 were Colts, 1 is a S&W MP15T, and the last one is hybrid Armalite upper on a S&W lower.

The first thing you need to ask yourself is whether you want a KISS rifle or a "tactical" rifle.

KISS rifles are simple, Tactical rifles OTOH are set up for whatever you wish to put on them.

The second thing to ask is whether you want a 16" or 20" barrel.

Finally, you should ask about what type of sights you want, A2 , A3 or A4?

Personally, I think the 20 inch barrels are a bit heavy and cumbersome. I myself like the 16" versions.

Also, I have a tactical model which has an EOTECH and a Magnifier on it. Naturally, it has a quadrail, and someday I hope to add a bipod, light, laser for intimidation, and finally a 3X9 or greater variable scope on a quick change mount so that I can quickly go back and forth between it and the EOTECH depending on the situation.

But it's my KISS rifle that I really love the most. I ordered a A2 mid-length upper from Armalite, and bought a S&W lower locally to mount it on. IT IS MY ALL TIME FAVORITE AR15!!! It's light, handy, and simple. I don't have to worry about batteries or extra weight. When I decided to buy the Armalite upper, it was after looking around at all the other manufacturers goods, and coming to the conclusion that Armalite gave me the most bang for my buck.

Now, what about manufacturers?

Frankly, there are so many out there today, that it is hard to make a choice. Companies with good names are Colt, S&W, Armalite, Rock River, CMMG and several new high end companies like Spikes, that people swear by. Seriously, there are so many manufacturers right now that I can't keep up with them. Bushmaster used to have a good name, but the owners sold the company and started a new one called Windham.

However, I've been told Olympic, del-ton, century, and blackthorne are not as good. That doesn't mean that they don't make good rifle, but that their rifles have a higher percentage of problems than the rifles named above.

Some say the best deal on the market right now is a genuine US military 20" upper mounted on the lower of your choice. It can probably be put together for $650-700 and will be of the same quality as a Colt, but at almost half the price.

Do you have any idea of what kind of rifle you want?

Dennis Olson said:

I really don't know. He's here in Texas. Where are you?

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It was a joke son - pitiful as it was.
But, I'm here in the Florida Panhandle a wee bit tense because we've had "some" damage in the area caused by "Debbie" - she will soon be over us . . . or not - we'll just wait and see. Radar doesn't forecast, it just shows the moment - there are often changes in direction(s).

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
http://www.ar15.com/forums/b/3_AR_15.html

You need to figure out what you want to do with it. Lots of different flavors.

That's mine.
It does what I need it to do.

Dennis,
I agree with Dozdoats regarding the barrel. I have been doing some work with a little known barrel maker from Iowa. His company is Satern Custom Machining, it might pay dividends to check their website. My next rifle is to be an AR10 with a Satern barrel. Steve is a very accomplished machinist and also a good shooter. RLTW

Well, I have a Mini-14 with synthetic stock, flash suppressor and red-dot scope (no magnification). That gun is really fun to shoot, and the beauty of the red-dot is that I have a single aim point, which is becoming more important as my eyes age. I have a nice SKS as well, also with a synthetic stock and a scope, though I don't have the scope installed. I have a bolt action Ruger M77 in .300 WinMag to "reach out and touch someone". It has a 4-12x40 scope WTH integral rangefinder on it. The bummer about the mini is that its accuracy is only about 6 MOA @ 100 yards. Sucky.

I guess if I had to define it, I'd want a nice MBR that would get the job done when the zombie hordes attack. A real honest-to-God SHTF "fight your way out" gun. I think I'd rather shoot the heavier 75/77 gr defensive ammo though, as opposed to the regular 55/62 gr. ALTHOUGH that weight is all I own, and if I went with the heavier ammo, I'd have to invest in about 3000 rds. That can't be cheap.


Any of this help? Did I mention I bloody LOVE the zero-mag red-dot scopes?

AzProtector said:

Mid length, free floated barrel, pick a handguard to accommodate your budget
Mega, BCM, PSA and CMMG are all fine uppers, Magpul .mil collapsable stock.

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If you are going with a 16 inch "mid-length" barrel, I strongly suggest you also go with a "mid-length" gas tube arrangement. This moves the gas block and iron sights to the same location they would be on a 20" barrel, giving you a longer sight radius and a longer dwell in the working of the action.

I have a bolt action Ruger M77 in .300 WinMag to "reach out and touch someone". It has a 4-12x40 scope WTH integral rangefinder on it. The bummer about the mini is that its accuracy is only about 6 MOA @ 100 yards. Sucky.

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I think I'd check to see if a good smith can tweak that thing and get at least under 2 moa. Not much advantage to a winmag that can't shoot tighter than that.

1 in 12 twist for 55 grain
1 in 7 for the heavy bullets you like
1 in 9 for both
although 1 in 8 is gaining some traction.

It sound to me like Mongo's rifle might be your cup of tea. It's short, lightweight, and you can put a red dot on it easily. Make sure your bore is chrome lined, I recently saw a pic of an AR near the coast that wasn't chromed, corrosion city! I'd rather pay extra up front and not worry about rust.

Oh, I almost forgot, AR15s are in such high demand right now, that many manufacturers have a 6 month wait! Seriously, go to the manufacturers page on AR15.com and checkout Rock River's site. They have people that have had to wait months and months to get their rifles due to demand. Also, I hear rumors that a lot of cheap chinese parts are going into some rifle, so try to buy from a company that builds their stuff either in house or buys thier components from American companies.

No, I was talking about the mini. The Ruger is 2MOA at 200+ yds

Group discount?

Heh...



Should it have a gas piston?

Housecarl said:

If you are going with a 16 inch "mid-length" barrel, I strongly suggest you also go with a "mid-length" gas tube arrangement. This moves the gas block and iron sights to the same location they would be on a 20" barrel, giving you a longer sight radius and a longer dwell in the working of the action.

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No it doesn't, the 20 inch rifle, the 16 inch M4 type carbines, and the 16 inch mid-length all use different gas tubes. The mid-length is in b/t the rifle and the M4s. I believe you are talking about the 'disapator' (sp?) models. Those do have shorter barrels with rifle length gas tubes. They are not mid lengths, however, as those take their name from their mid-length gas system, which by the way is not mil-spec standards. But heck, they work so well that nobody complains.

sorry, double post

Dennis Olson said:

Heh...Should it have a gas piston?

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They are falling out of favor with many b/c the piston knocks off your aim just like it will with an AK47, or so I've been told. Also, some of the softer 55 grain commercial ammo will not hold up to a 1 in 7 twist, which is why 1 in 9 has become so popular as it stabilizes all bullets well.

Quote Originally Posted by Housecarl View Post
If you are going with a 16 inch "mid-length" barrel, I strongly suggest you also go with a "mid-length" gas tube arrangement. This moves the gas block and iron sights to the same location they would be on a 20" barrel, giving you a longer sight radius and a longer dwell in the working of the action.

Click to expand...

American Rage said:

No it doesn't, the 20 inch rifle, the 16 inch M4 type carbines, and the 16 inch mid-length all use different gas tubes. The mid-length is in b/t the rifle and the M4s.

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Yes. The "common" 16" carbine uses the M4 length gas tube and block arrangement on a 16" barrel. What I was talking about was the "mid-length" gas tube/gas block/16 inch barrel set up. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.



ETA: I'd also suggest going with an A4 upper, that way if you want to put an optic on it later it can go onto the Picatinny rail on the top of the upper, more solidly than the "hand grip" mounts available.

Ditch the mini and the M77 and get a nice AK. Keep the SKS as a backup and stock up on ammo.....

My M77's primary mission is hunting. Gonna keep that one.

Dennis you want a mid length gas system a mil spec 1 in 7 twist chromed barrel and chamber to start with. I recently snapped together my own gun from BravoCoUSA I used a complete upper using a hammer forged barrel with those specs on their flat top recieverwith the propper Front sight and base. Here's the link: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...eiver-light-weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw bfh.htm There stuff is top notch and I also used one of their Bolt carrier groups linl : http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Auto-M16-p/bcm bolt carrier group auto mp.htm and one of their first line lower recievers without a stock assembly as I wished to add my own pick of stock Link here: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm

I realized you asked about a custom rifle but I snapped these different assemblies together, went to brownells ordered my Magpul stock and forend, a magpul BUIS(BACK Up Iron Sight), a magpul rail kit, threw a viking tactics light mount and 200 lumen surefire G-2X on the gun and an Aim Point PRO red dot and came in right at $1600. I reccomend either the brownells
mil spec magazines or the Mag pul PMags as mags get as many mags as you can buy as they should be considered an item with a limited life unlike a quality built rifle. BravoCoUSA is an excellent source for an upper or pwer for yourcustom build their stuff is bildt to the milolitary Techincal Data Package standard with the exception of being full auto. They rank with Colt, Daniel Defense,Noveske,and LMT for quality. These are the gold standard for a fighting rifle amongst the people I know who buy or role their own. FN is good too but they build M16/ AR series rifles only for the military, but they do sell mil spec parts to some builders.

In the thread in the Fireams sub forum there is a link to a chart that is most helpful in explaining the different features and who includes them.

What capacity for the mags?

30 round P Mag should be your standard. Surefire 60 round magazines are absolutely the shit and worth every penny. All my go to guns have these. Not much bigger than a standard 30 rounder but twice the capacity.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/99...e-ar-15-223-remington-60-round-aluminum-matte

RE piston or gas: It all depends on what optics you plan on running and what your primary function is. IF you are running some kind of red dot, with out magnification, a piston with it's ease of maintenance and cleaning is what you want. If you are running a red dot (like an eotech) with a magnifier, I would still recommend a piston.

The only reason to do a gas system is if you want to utilize a scope and have a ultra precision set up. For red dot cqb (which is what the ar platform is intended to be IMO, the piston set up sacrifices little in accuracy for it's intended ranges and excels over the gas platform for all things operational and maintenance.

Every major manufacturer has a piston upper, some are better than others. Rock river is very good, so is adams arms. POF is the tops IMO.

Dennis,

You can build a rifle with all of the variables folks have listed above. As I handle a wide range of rifles from all of the major manufacturers, I have to say that the best, and the one that I bought, I could have bought any of them, was a CQB from Barnes Precision Machine. They actually make all of the rifle's components except for the barrel (which is made for them) and the furniture. The price is also less than what you are going to pay in parts and pieces.

http://www.usamade-ar15parts.com/

If you are interested in one of these, let me know.

There are so many variables in building an AR.. but I can give you some tips from ones I have built

Stay away from Olympic Arms anything, Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne Arms as well. Lots of cheaply made or out of spec parts.

As for barrel thats a personal preference. I prefer the carbine length m4 profile barrel, gives you enough reach while not being too long or heavy.

As for flash suppressor or muzzle brake, right now I run a Yankee Hill Phantom 5C2 or a battle comp brake (Which also acts somewhat as a flash suppressor)

Get a nickle boron bolt and bolt carrier, http://tinyurl.com/8xhp2td no lube needed (Ok maybe a little lol) and its super easy to clean.

Also for a cleaning tool, get yourself a Magna-matic CRT-15, yes the guy that invented it is a good friend of mine here.. lol but its well worth it. Him and I are currently in the process of developing a muzzle brake that will be truly amazing btw, we tested it out last week on one of my ars, almost zero recoil. Once we have them in production, I can give you more info on costs if you want one.

Any other questions feel free to ask. I spent most of last summer building ARs and AKs for a local builder here working part time there.. so I have seen it all lol

Edxited to add: Oh yes.. chrome lined barrel, not chrome moly or stainless.

I have a Bushmaster AR and it is my go to for so much.. No recommendations for ya just a bit of jealousy.. LOL

Dennis go to M4Carbine.net and join it is AR15.com for adults. Lots of good solid info there for someone building a serious go to war gun.

Dennis, you might want to consider more than one upper. I recently built a .300 Blackout and can use a .223 upper without changing the bolt carrier group or magazines. Wilson Tactical is a good source for barrels, just don't get in a hurry, as they stay backed up. I went with an Adams Arms piston kit. It just doesn't make sense to me to dump exhaust gases in the chamber area. You mileage may vary.

I'm trying to keep the cost to about $1000 if at all possible. If I get extended again for a long period, THEN it's "whatever it costs".

I have one of the first Palmetto Armory CAR bh15A1's (pre SGW/Olympic Arms) made. Machined lower from solid billet, mil "spec" bolt/carrier, 12in brl, 4in flash, 1/9, it's ugly, worn and has a pit or two on the front site post. It's also built like a tank and can still get a tight group at 100 yds. Dennis, you might consider a trip to cabellas or even (better) Bass Pro (in SA) to try out a few (Bass Pro has a complementry indoor range). Will give ya an idea of the different charicteristics of the configurations.

If he is that accomplished of an AR bbuilder, then why don't you just give him a budget, and tell him what you want to use this gun for?

AR's are like barbie dolls for men. They can be made into about a million different configurations.

I would tell him that I want a reliable carbine under 1k, and let him go from there. This should provide you with a lightweight versatile weapon that shoots good out to 200 yards.

That's what I did. However, I'd like to also provide him with some detailed "ideas" for various components and get his thoughts on them.

I'd want a nice MBR

Then you want something in .308, not .223. ANYTHING you build in .223 will be a carbine, not a battle rifle. No matter what bullet weight you shoot. There's nothing wrong with a good carbine, and it will do a lot of useful things - but it cannot do what a full blown battle rifle will do. This is one sow's ear you cannot turn into a silk purse. And it isn't just a question of semantics either.

A good .223 carbine in the hands of a capable shooter should be good for 500 yards, as long as crosswind is not a huge issue. But seldom will there be a need for that much range in most cases, and anyone in who spends most of their time in wide open spaces (AKA "rifle country," for a reason) needs a rifle, not a carbine. Skillset is the primary issue, and no amount of money spent on toolset will make up for a lack of skillset. A good multi-day carbine class from one of the good schools is a better investment than a $2000 carbine the shooter doesn't know how to use effectively.

JMNSHO, YMMV

The problem with the .308's is weight, and the weight of the ammo. As I said, I have the .300 WinMag with 4-12 mag scope for really long distance. The thing weighs in at about 11 lbs!!! And I have a single ammo can with about 300-400 rds for it, and that ammo can could not be carried any distance at all...

Which is precisely why, several decades after its adoption, the US military is still using what so many dismiss as "a poodle shooter." Which in turn is why I say - to shoot a carbine cartridge, build a real carbine. Anyone who is going to carry 9-10 pounds or more of long gun had as well carry something in a .30 cartridge. It isn't hard to build a 6-6.5 pound AR that will do just fine with its lighter weight ammo, it just takes good shooting fundamentals to hit reliably with it, especially at longer range.

I've built several dozen ARs since the late 1970s and have had plenty of time (including class time) to see what works and what does not. A multi-day (3 or 4 day) carbine class is a good wringer for both the carbine and the shooter.