EDUC Government Report: DC Nuke blast wouldn't destroy city

LibertyMom

Senior Member
I saw this early this morning and just now had a chance to post it. Didn't see it in a quick search so I hope it's not a dupe.

http://wtop.com/?nid=109&sid=2803039

WASHINGTON (AP) - Hollywood has destroyed Washington _ or New York or Los Angeles _ lots of times with nuclear bombs detonated by terrorists. It turns out to be harder in real life.

Thinking about the unthinkable, a U.S. government study analyzed the likely effects from terrorists setting off a 10-kiloton nuclear device a few blocks north of the White House. It predicted terrible devastation for roughly one-half mile in every direction, with buildings reduced to rubble the way that World War II bombing raids destroyed parts of Berlin. But outside that blast zone, the study concluded, even such a nuclear explosion would be pretty survivable.

"It's not the end of the world," said Randy Larsen, a retired Air Force colonel and founding director of the Institute for Homeland Security. "It's not a Cold War scenario."

The little-noticed, 120-page study by the Federal Emergency Management Agency was hardly a summer blockbuster. The study, "Key Response Planning Factors for the Aftermath of Nuclear Terrorism," was produced in November by the Homeland Security Department and the National Nuclear Security Administration. Even though the government considers it "for official use only" and never published it online, the study circulated months later on scientific and government watchdog websites.

The report estimated the blast zone would extend just past the south lawn of the White House and as far east as the FBI headquarters. "Few, if any, above ground buildings are expected to remain structurally sound or even standing, and few people would survive," it predicted. It described the blast area as a "no-go zone" for days afterward due to radiation. But the U.S. Capitol, the Supreme Court, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln and Jefferson memorials, and the Pentagon across the Potomac River were all in areas described as "light damage," with some broken windows and mostly minor injuries.

The government study predicted 323,000 injuries, with more than 45,000 dead. A 10-kiloton nuclear explosion would be roughly 5,000 times more powerful than the truck bomb that destroyed the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

The flash from the explosion would be seen for hundreds of miles, but the mushroom cloud _ up to five miles tall _ would only keep its shape for a few minutes. The flash would be so bright it could temporarily blind people up to 12 miles away, including drivers on Washington's Beltway. At least four area hospitals would be heavily damaged or couldn't function, and four others would experience dangerous radiation fallout. The government said it expects to send warnings afterward by television, radio, email, text message and social media services like Twitter and Facebook.

It predicted the seriousness of radioactive fallout, which would drift with prevailing winds that vary depending on the season and expose victims closest to the explosion to 300 to 800 Roentgens in the first two hours, or enough to kill nearly all of them. In the spring, fallout would drift mostly to the north and west of downtown Washington. But in the summer, it would drift mostly southeast. After two hours, the radioactive cloud would move over Baltimore with far less exposure.

"Unfortunately, our instincts can be our own worst enemy," the report said. After the bright flash of a nuclear explosion, people would rush toward windows to see but the resulting blast could break glass as far as three miles away just 10 seconds later and cause injuries.

Terrified victims would try to flee the area, but going outside could expose them to deadly amounts of radiation within a few minutes. A car offers no protection. The government's advice for everyone within 50 miles: Head downstairs into a parking garage or basement. Anyone caught outside who heads indoors should remove shirts or jackets and shoes and brush their hair to remove large fallout particles.

The blast zone could be smaller or larger, depending on the city. In more dense cities, including New York, towering buildings could help confine how far debris flies, though the radioactive fallout cloud would still drift over a larger area.

The key is to quickly head underground to parking garages or sturdy basements and wait, Larsen said. After about seven hours, radiation begins to disperse significantly, he said.

The government's study did not examine the plausibility of terrorists building a nuclear bomb or smuggling one into Washington, which is protected with radiation sensors and other technology designed to thwart such an attack. It didn't say why it chose the intersection _ 16th and K streets northwest _ as the epicenter for its fictional nuclear bomb.

More at link.
 

LibertyMom

Senior Member
The government's study did not examine the plausibility of terrorists building a nuclear bomb or smuggling one into Washington, which is protected with radiation sensors and other technology designed to thwart such an attack. It didn't say why it chose the intersection _ 16th and K streets northwest _ as the epicenter for its fictional nuclear bomb.

I've been puzzling about that. I don't think there's anything at that location that is any more or less valuable a target than other spots in the city. My guess is that those conducting the study tried to set it where the damage didn't cross the Potomac and left the Capitol building intact.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
As they say, two of the things to live through an atomic attack are Twinkies, cockroaches. And Hostess filed for bankruptcy...

Loup
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Yep, not everyone died in Hiroshima either - just 70,000 of the cities inhabitants..that doesn't count the injuries and those who died later, just the ones killed in the blast (per a documentary I watched just last night)...
 
HOW ABOUT FULL BLOWN GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR?

Washington DC will be a big hole in the ground that the Potomac
River will fill in, creating a large radioactive man-made lake.

md.jpg
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
Well, if your DH works in DC, it's a bit comforting to think that as long as the terrorists choose at 10KT bomb at the intersection of 16th and K St. NW, he'll probably be alright. :)

Nope, I don't know anyone who lives there anymore. I did have a friend who did for a few years, but she said everybody was stuck up (rich burb, I guess), and she was happy to come home.

:)
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
thermonuclear war utilizes hydrogen bombs.............which are atomic (fission) fused heavy water (deutrium) payloaded high fusion explosions..............the scary thing about those bombs is if you want to increase the yield you just add more heavy water.......which is very cost effective to produce ......the more you add the bigger the yield.

There is no end to how big the blast can be.......accept ending up with a bomb so big you have no way to deliever it to the target................regardless there are plenty of rocket transports that carry theromnuclear weapons that can blast an area for many many miles from the epicenter..............

Every city is toast if there are still high yield weapons stockpiled in the world's developed country's aresnals........
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Yeah, well if you take out the business office area in the center of the city along with the staff then it will be goodbye city. Once the next war starts the cities will become death traps in one way or another. The problem is so will the countryside will people flood out of the cities.
 

LibertyMom

Senior Member
Nope, I don't know anyone who lives there anymore. I did have a friend who did for a few years, but she said everybody was stuck up (rich burb, I guess), and she was happy to come home.

:)

Yeah, DC residents are all pretty much dirt poor or stinking rich.
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
Yeah, DC residents are all pretty much dirt poor or stinking rich.

What's "funny" is that she comes from a rich family herself, with local businesses and all that. But she said unless you have connections to the DC in-crowd and can play the same uppity games they do, you are a nobody.
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
well, continuing the theme of the "terrorists strike at DC with 10 KT weapons",
imagine that the next day, the news reports that a "creditable" threat has been sent to tptb, that unless the US evacuates all military personnel from the MidEast within the next two weeks, there will be another strike at another (un-named/garbled) US city.

guess what happens next....
MASS EXODUS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
well, continuing the theme of the "terrorists strike at DC with 10 KT weapons",
imagine that the next day, the news reports that a "creditable" threat has been sent to tptb, that unless the US evacuates all military personnel from the MidEast within the next two weeks, there will be another strike at another (un-named/garbled) US city.

guess what happens next....
MASS EXODUS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

And not just in the US either...
 

Vector

Veteran Member
It depends on how big a nuke one uses. Ten kilotons---probably not. But, one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-25
Production history
Designer
Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology



Manufacturer

Votkinsk Machine Building Plant



Specifications



Weight

45,100 kg (99,000 lb)



Length

21.5 m (71 ft)



Diameter

1.8 m (5 ft 11 in)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Warhead

Single 800 kt warhead




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Engine

Three-stage solid propellant




Operational
range

10,500 km (6,500 mi)



Speed

approx. 7 km/s



Guidance
system

Inertial, autonomous



Accuracy

200 m CEP



Launch
platform

Road-mobile TEL
 

Attachments

  • 640px-Moscow_Parad_2008_Ballist.jpg
    640px-Moscow_Parad_2008_Ballist.jpg
    82.7 KB · Views: 156

Captain D

Senior Member
As they say, two of the things to live through an atomic attack are Twinkies, cockroaches. And Hostess filed for bankruptcy...

Loup

I've always heard it said that Keith Richards would survive, too!

A fascinating read, as is anything about nukes.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
It depends on how big a nuke one uses. Ten kilotons---probably not. But, one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-25
Production history
Designer
Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology



Manufacturer

Votkinsk Machine Building Plant



Specifications



Weight

45,100 kg (99,000 lb)



Length

21.5 m (71 ft)



Diameter

1.8 m (5 ft 11 in)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Warhead

Single 800 kt warhead




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Engine

Three-stage solid propellant




Operational
range

10,500 km (6,500 mi)



Speed

approx. 7 km/s



Guidance
system

Inertial, autonomous



Accuracy

200 m CEP



Launch
platform

Road-mobile TEL

Road Mobile MX with TEL....
mx7.jpg


ETA: Midgetman and it's TEL...

2589967725_b6db7134fb_z.jpg
 
Last edited:

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
thermonuclear war utilizes hydrogen bombs.............which are atomic (fission) fused heavy water (deutrium) payloaded high fusion explosions..............the scary thing about those bombs is if you want to increase the yield you just add more heavy water.......which is very cost effective to produce ......the more you add the bigger the yield.

There is no end to how big the blast can be.......accept ending up with a bomb so big you have no way to deliever it to the target................regardless there are plenty of rocket transports that carry theromnuclear weapons that can blast an area for many many miles from the epicenter..............

Every city is toast if there are still high yield weapons stockpiled in the world's developed country's aresnals........

Combining nuclear weapons of "low yield" with precision guided munition technology makes it so that you don't have to glass cities to fight a force on force war, you can be very selective on your targeting. It forces both parties to be a lot more cagey than they were during Cold War 1.0. Heck, one of the reasons why the Russians are all tissey about US JDAMs is because, in theory, in one pass two or three B-1Bs or B-2As could take out one of their ICBM fields without going nuclear.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Government Report: DC Nuke blast wouldn't destroy city

My evil twin wants to say, Let's try.


HC, still no Nuke Hand grenades eh?
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Hostess is reorganizing, not liquidating. Twinkies almost certainly WILL continue to be made.

So what about the destruction if the bomb exploded a few thousand feet off the ground? Maybe terrorists forgot how to fly after September 11th (used up all their pilots, maybe).
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
A SS-18 Satan will do it.

Especially if all 10 MIRVs and the (up to) 45 "Softening Agents" (I do so love DoD euphemisms, it almost sounds like something that you would put in your laundry) that each SS-18Mk3+ carries.

Loup
 

Southside

Has No Timebombs, Lives on Life
From what I hear in Chicago, It is not just "enemies" he turns "butt-up" to.
(But that is just a rumor)
Southside
 
Last edited:

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Not with the Anointed One in the Black House. He'd roll over and turn butt-up to our enemies.



Oh wait, he already HAS...

Odds are in that scenario it would be a CoG team running things as most of the Admin probably wouldn't get out of DC ahead of such an event. Such a CoG team for the sake of legitimacy and retention of US "pride of place" internationally would out of necessity have to go "Biblical" upon just about anyone who was suspected of involvement.

If they didn't, they'd be toast themselves.
 
"...terrible devastation for roughly one-half mile in every direction, with buildings reduced to rubble the way that World War II bombing raids destroyed parts of Berlin..."



Interesting take that this wouldn't destroy the city...and this is assuming ONLY 10kt device.

Guess no one's figuring out what MULTIPLE small nukes would do let alone a 50-100kt one.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Keep in mind that 10 KT is smaller than both the Hiroshima ("Little Boy" - 13-18 KT, estimates vary, per Wikipedia) and Nagasaki ("Fat Man" - 21 KT, per Wikipedia) atomic bombs. I doubt there are all that many 10 KT atomic bombs in any nuclear arsenal anywhere in the world since the strategic weapons are rated in MT (megatons) rather than KT (kilotons). Apparently the OP article is saying that terrorists are too stupid to build the "low tech" type of bombs the US used on Japan or even use them as an airburst for maximum effectiveness (or that its readers are too ignorant to know the difference).
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Actually, strategic weapons have been in the KT yield for a long time. Since MIRVs arrived on the scene and the targeting ability of the warheads was vastly improved. The only reason MT devices were originally needed was because of how inaccurate they were.


ETA:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Variable yield — or dial-a-yield — is an option available on most modern nuclear weapons. It allows the operator to specify a weapon's yield, or explosive power, allowing a single design to be used in different situations. For example, the Mod-10 B61 bomb had selectable explosive yields of 0.3, 5, 10 or 80 kiloton, depending on how the ground crew set a dial inside the casing when it was loaded onto an aircraft.

Variable yield technology has existed since at least the early 1960s. Examples of variable yield weapons include the B61 nuclear bomb family, B83, W80, W85 and WE177A warheads.

Most modern nuclear weapons are Teller–Ulam design type thermonuclear weapons, with a fission primary stage and a fusion (or fission) secondary stage which is collapsed by the energy from the primary. These offer at least three methods to vary yield:

Varying primary yield by boosting with fusion, using small amounts of deuterium / tritium gas inside the primary fission bomb to increase its yield. Typically, the gas is injected a few seconds before detonation and the amount used can be preset.

Varying primary yield by varying the timing or use of external neutron initiators (ENIs).[1] These are small particle accelerators that cause a brief fusion reaction by accelerating deuterium into a tritium target (or potentially vice-versa), producing a short energetic pulse of neutrons. Precise timing of the ENI pulse as the nuclear primary's pit is collapsing can significantly affect yield, and the rate of neutron injection can also be controlled.

Shutting down the thermonuclear secondary, either by firing the primary at low enough yield that it does not compress the secondary sufficiently to ignite, or by blocking energy transport inside the warhead briefly as the primary is firing using shutters or a similar mechanism. If the primary's energy starts to disperse through the radiation case before being focused on the secondary then the secondary will likely never detonate.

All current British nuclear warheads incorporate variable yield technology as standard.[2]
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
Are they going to try it and see. Everyone wants to know for sure :lol:

By the way that "Handle with Care" sign on the field launched nuke is one of the most unnecesary things I have ever read :) But then again it needs to be soldier proof.
 

shane

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I'd first addressed the survivability of a 10kt nuke in DC
in a WorldNetDaily article in 2006, updated in 2011 here...

www.ki4u.com/goodnews.htm

The Good News About Nuclear Destruction!

What possible 'good news' could there ever be about nuclear destruction coming to America, whether it is Dirty Bombs, Terrorist Nukes, or ICBM's from afar?

In a word, they are all survivable for the vast majority of American families, IF they know what to do beforehand and have made even the most modest of preparations.

Tragically, though, most Americans today won't give much credence to this good news, much less seek out such vital life-saving instruction, as they have been jaded by our culture's pervasive myths of nuclear un-survivability.

Most people think that if nukes go off then everybody is going to die, or it'll be so bad they'll wish they had. That's why you hear such absurd comments as; "If it happens, I hope I'm at ground zero and go quickly."

This defeatist attitude was born as the disarmament movement ridiculed any competing alternatives to their ban-the-bomb agenda, like Civil Defense. The activists wanted all to think there was no surviving a nuke, banning them all was your only hope. The sound Civil Defense strategies of the 50-60's have been derided as being largely ineffective, or at worst a cruel joke. With the supposed end of the Cold War in the 80's, most Americans saw neither a need to prepare, nor believed that preparation would do any good. Today, with growing prospects of nuclear terrorism, and nuclear saber rattling from rogue nations, we see emerging among the public either paralyzing fear or irrational denial. People can't even begin to envision effective preparations for ever surviving a nuclear attack. They think it totally futile, bordering on lunacy, to even try.

Ironically, these disarmament activists, regardless their noble intent, have rendered millions of Americans even more vulnerable to perishing from nukes in the future.

The biggest surprise for most Americans, from the first flash of a nuke being unleashed, is that they will still be here, though ill-equipped to survive for long, if they don't know what to do beforehand from that first second of the flash onward.

Most could easily survive the initial blasts because they won't be close enough to any "ground zero", and that is very good news. Unfortunately, though, few people will be prepared to next survive the later coming radioactive fallout which could eventually kill many times more than the blast. However, there is still more good news possible, as well over 90% of those potential casualties from fallout can be avoided, IF the public was pre-trained through an aggressive national Civil Defense educational program. Simple measures taken immediately after a nuclear blast, by a pre-trained public, can prevent agonizing death and injury from radiation exposure.

The National Planning Scenario #1, an originally confidential internal 2004 study by the Department of Homeland Security, demonstrated the above survival odds when they examined the effects of a terrorist nuke going off in Washington, D.C.. They discovered that a 10 kiloton nuke, about 2/3rds the size of the Hiroshima bomb, detonated at ground level, would result in about 15,000 immediate deaths, and another 15,000 casualties from the blast, thermal flash and initial radiation release. As horrific as that is, the surprising revelation here is that over 99% of the residents in the DC area will have just witnessed and survived their first nuclear explosion. Clearly, the good news is most people will survive the initial blast.

However, that study also soberly determined that as many as another 250,000 people could soon be at risk from lethal doses of radiation from the fallout drifting downwind towards them after the blast. (Another study, released in August 2006 by the Rand Corporation, looked at a terrorist 10 kiloton nuke arriving in a cargo container and being exploded in the Port of Long Beach, California. Over 150,000 people were estimated to be at risk downwind from fallout, again many more than from the initial blast itself.)

The good news, that these much larger casualty numbers from radioactive fallout are largely avoidable, only applies to those pre-trained beforehand by a Civil Defense program in what to do before it arrives.

Today, lacking any meaningful Civil Defense program, millions of American families continue to be at risk and could perish needlessly for lack of essential knowledge that used to be taught at the grade school level.

The public, and especially our children, urgently need to be instructed in Civil Defense basics again. Like how most can save themselves by employing the old 'Duck & Cover' tactic, rather than just impulsively rushing to the nearest window to see what that 'big flash' was across town just-in-time to be shredded by the glass imploding inwards from the delayed blast wave. Even in the open, just laying flat, reduces by eight-fold the chances of being hit by debris from that brief, three second, tornado strength blast that, like lightning & thunder, could be delayed arriving anywhere from a fraction of a second to 20 seconds or more after that initial flash.

They need to also know if in the path far downwind of fallout coming, that evacuating perpendicular to that downwind drift of the fallout would be their best strategy. They must also be taught, if they can't evacuate in time, how to shelter-in-place while the radioactive fallout loses 90% of it's lethal intensity in the first seven hours and 99% of it in two days. For those requiring sheltering from fallout, the majority would only need two or three days of full-time hunkering down, not weeks on end, before safely joining the evacuation.

This good news is easily grasped by most people, and an effective expedient fallout shelter can be improvised at home, school or work quickly, but only IF the public had been trained beforehand, as was begun in the 50's & 60's with our national Civil Defense program.

Unfortunately, our government today is doing little to promote nuclear preparedness and Civil Defense instruction among the general public. Regrettably, most of our politicians, like the public, are still captive to the same illusions that training and preparation of the public are ineffective and futile against a nuclear threat.

The past administrations Department of Homeland Security head, Michael Chertoff, demonstrated this attitude in 2005 when he responded to the following question in USA Today;

Q: In the last four years, the most horrific scenario - a nuclear attack - may be the least discussed. If there were to be a nuclear attack tomorrow by terrorists on an American city, how would it be handled?

A: In the area of a nuclear bomb, it's prevention, prevention, prevention. If a nuclear bomb goes off, you are not going to be able to protect against it. There's no city strong enough infrastructure-wise to withstand such a hit. No matter how you approach it, there'd be a huge loss of life.


Mr. Chertoff failed to grasp that most of that "huge loss of life" could be avoided if those in the blast zone and downwind knew what to do beforehand. He only acknowledges that the infrastructure will be severely compromised -- too few first-responders responding. Civil Defense pre-training of the public is clearly the only hope for those in the blast zone and later in the fallout path. Of course, the government should try and prevent it happening first, but the answer he should have given to that question is; "preparation, preparation, preparation" of the public via training beforehand, for when prevention by the government might fail.

The current Obama administration also fails to grasp that the single greatest force multiplier to reducing potential casualties, and greatly enhancing the effectiveness of first-responders, is a pre-trained public so that there will be far fewer casualties to later deal with. Spending millions to train and equip first-responders is good and necessary, but having millions fewer victims, by having also educated and trained the public beforehand, would be many magnitudes more effective in saving lives.

The federal government needs to launch a national mass media, business supported, and school based effort, superseding our most ambitious public awareness campaigns like for AIDs, drug abuse, drunk driving, anti-smoking, etc. The effort should percolate down to every level of our society. Let's be clear - we are talking about the potential to save, or lose needlessly, many times more lives than those saved by all these other noble efforts combined!

Instead, Homeland Security continues with a focus primarily on...

#1 - Interdiction - Catching nuclear materials and terrorists beforehand and...

#2 - COG - Continuity of Government and casualty response afterwards for when #1 fails

While the vital key component continues to be largely ignored...

#3 - Continuity of the Public while it's happening - via proven mass media Civil Defense training beforehand that would make the survival difference then for the vast majority of Americans affected by a nuclear event and on their own from that first initial flash & blast and through that critical first couple days of the highest radiation threat, before government response has arrived in force.

This deadly oversight will persist until those crippling myths of nuclear un-survivability are banished by the good news that a trained and prepared public can, and ultimately has to, save themselves. More training of the public beforehand means less body bags required afterwards, it's that simple.

The tragic After Action Reports (AAR's), of an American city nuked today, would glaringly reveal then that the overwhelming majority of victims had perished needlessly for lack of this basic, easy to learn & employ, life-saving knowledge.

Re-launching Civil Defense training is an issue we hope & pray will come to the forefront on the political stage, with both parties vying to outdo each other proposing national Civil Defense public educational programs. We are not asking billions for provisioned public fallout shelters for all, like what already awaits many of our politicians. We are just asking for a comprehensive mass media, business, and school based re-release of the proven practical strategies of Civil Defense instruction, a modernized version of what we used to have here, and that had been embraced by the Chinese, Russians, Swiss, and Israeli's.

There is no greater, nor more legitimate, primary responsibility of any government than to protect it's citizens. And, no greater condemnation awaits that government that fails to, risking millions then perishing needlessly. We all need to demand renewed public Civil Defense training and the media needs to spotlight it questioning officials and politicians, until the government corrects this easily avoidable, but fatal vulnerability.

In the meantime, though, don't wait around for the government to instruct and prepare your own family and community. Educate yourself today and begin establishing your own family nuclear survival preparations by reading the free nuke prep primer...

What To Do If A Nuclear Disaster Is Imminent! at www.ki4u.com/guide.htm

Then, pass copies of it, along with this article, to friends, neighbors, relatives, fellow workers, churches and community organizations with a brief note attached saying simply: "We hope/pray we never need this, but just-in-case, keep it handy!" Few nowadays will find that approach alarmist and you'll be pleasantly surprised at how many are truly grateful.

Everyone should also forward copies of both to their local, state and federal elected representatives, as well as your own communities first-responders and local media, all to help spread this good news that's liberating American families from their paralyzing and potentially fatal myths of nuclear un-survivability!
 
Top