DISASTER Fukushima Reactor Disaster: MAIN THREAD - Five Year Anniversary

Rex Jackson

Has No Life - Lives on TB
All that I can see being done now is the same thing they did in Chernobyl. Drop rocks on the entire establishment from high altitude until buried. Then from a lower altitude start dropping smaller rocks and dirt, from there cover it in cement. Yes, this will take months and yes the faster they act the less radiation will destroy the waters and lands. I would have started working on this plan last week.
 

Brutus

Inactive
Dude.. there was a 9.0 earthquake and a 10 meter tsunami... You think some of those monitoring posts might be affected?

There are plenty of radiation monitors being run by plenty of other agencies and individuals. Radioactivity is something you can't hide, it doesn't subscribe to conspiracy.

Thanks for that, Jeff.

It needed to be said.

:)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
No, radiation can't be hidden. But the REPORTING of radiation can, and HAS been. Either hidden completely or vastly minimized in being reported to the public.


And THAT needed to be said too.
 

rafter

Since 1999
Can we get someone like Micky Mouse or some other 'expert' to give us an opinion as to what is going to happen, since obviously this thing is out of control and can't be turned around?

What are we looking at over the next few days, weeks, months and years?

It also bothers me that the Japanese were wanting 'our' military to drop water on these...I've seen what water drops do to forest fires and they are no way as hot as this it. They do next to nothing. Where is Japan's military helicopters? Why can't they do it?
 

Archetype

Veteran Member
High altitude airdrops of rocks would either miss completely (no such thing as a guided rock, dispersal would be tremendous and there's no ballistic data for boulders) or if they did hit, would punch even more holes. And even with something like a C-5 or C-17, you're not going to be able to get a good coverage.

I can see C-130s dropping masses of boric acid to try and tamp down the reactions, and then CH-47s and CH-53s making suicide runs ie Chernobyl dropping material from close in to bury the reactors; maybe after that you could get combat engineering vehicles with some add on shielding in closer to stabilize the resulting mess. Maybe. God be with the crews.

I'm unfamiliar with the handling of boric acid; conceivably it could be dumped from -130s fitted out with the firefighting modules; we have those, and IIRC, Japan may have as well.
 

Greenspode

Veteran Member
No offence intended but you have to get a grip on yourself. How are you going to handle it when such things happen here which directly effect your health and welfare if something happening overseas which is unlikely to effect you directly has you spooked? Things of this level are going to come to America in our future. It might not be nuclear power plants melting down but who among us doesn't anticipate at least a few tactical nuclear weapons being released into some American cities eventually or the full grown economic collapse which is inevitable?

I think it's paramount to realize that God has everything perfectly under control even when the situation outwardly seems to be bleak. None of this has taken him by surprise and he knows exactly what he is doing and why he is doing it. Things of this nature are going to happen in the end of this age as Christ warned us in MT24, LK13 and other places. I think if we fear God (fear meaning awe, respect, trust) correctly we won't fear either manmade or natural disasters which might come. Even in a full blown meltdown of these plants in Japan the radiological effects over here are going to be minimal, even on the West coast. The greatest danger is people panicking and over reacting and were already seeing some of this on this thread and reports in the media of radiac meters and K.I. flying off the shelves and people crying when they can't get them. These people don't know how to use the equipment, don't know when to use it and have no idea with the KI if it will help them or when to take it.

We need to relax a bit, be watchful as always and go about our daily lives to do what needs to be done. This event in Japan is terrible and you can't blame them for being desperate. An earthquake and tsunami would be bad enough but now with the nuclear issue on top of it the situation has overrun the governments ability to deal with it. You can rest assure when these things happen here our government will be no better able to deal with it. The panic that has started in Japan and spreading around the world is not going unnoticed by the entities that want to use the panic to further their aims. The economic cahos this will release may indeed be the vehicle that they can use to blame the collapse on. In the short term this event will not directly and physically threaten the U.S. radiologically but in the future we need to be cautious about where our fresh foods are coming from but thats about it. My heart breaks for the Japanese people as all of our hearts do but I'm sleeping well at night because I know this isn't going to irridiate this country. For those that can and if it will make you feel more informed get a copy of Kerney's book on Nuclear War Survival Skills ( http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...TLmGdz0EAZdWHT2gg&sig2=-evje6zvWLMalRRFMVGPJg )and it's not only full of good information but shows you how to build field expedient fallout shelters with what you have on hand...it's a good skill to master. When you know how to react to a situation the fear level goes down considerably.

Mostly good and accurate thoughts, however......this attitude that the "public" taking matters into their own hands, taking some personnal responsibility for their own welfare and preparing for a possible bad situation is somehow "dangerous" really gets under my skin. This sounds frighteningly like TPTB attitude that we are all too stupid to think for and plan for ourselves, without government supervision.

I am a prepper, and I have had KI in my prep supplies for almost 6 years. I did not know how to use it when I got it, but I am literate. I read and learned. People can do that, ya know? I am not saying they are all going to do so, but I do not like this attitude that we are too stupid to look out for ourselves and need someone else to tell us what to do. THAT attitude is really what is wrong with this country.

You may think that you are smarter than everyone else....and that you are smart enough to figure things out, the rest of us aren't, but that is just ego. If I had a dollar for everytime some sheeple told me that I could not prep because I did not know enough about all this "survival" stuff I would be rich right now. Not everyone is too stupid to learn! I'm sure there are many in the .gov who feel that you and I should not have all this dangerous stuff cause we don't know how to use it properly. I have all kinds of meds, all kinds of weapons and ammo, all kinds of stuff. Stuff that would probably horrify most of the public and would create an attitude that I, as a stupid civilian, should not have because I am not smart enough to know how to use it. I bet most of us do.

People stocking up on whatever they feel they need or want to take care of their families is not something that you or anyone else should have any say in. Are they too stupid to use the stuff correctly and too illiterate to learn? Maybe, but they are FREE to be stupid.

Never thought I would hear someone on a board like this declare that the citizens taking whatever precautions they wish for whatever scenario they are worried about is a danger. I thought we all wanted everyone to prepare? Now we think we are the only ones who should have that right?

I'm sorry, but I fully support, and in fact encourage, EVERYONE to prepare to look out for their family and take whatever precautions they deem necessary to do so. I do not believe in sitting around waiting for the Nanny Government to tell us all when to sit, stay or lie down.

You may not be worried about radiation...and you may really believe it will not be an issue here. You are probably right......course there are a lot of people who don't believe any number of the things that us preppers are worried about and don't believe that we should be doing all this crazy prepper stuff. You sound a bit like them. Not for you to say what others should worry about or prepare for......just like others should not say what you are free to worry about or prepare for.

Sorry for the rant but I really get annoyed at the suggestion that everyone should wait to be told what to do by someone smarter than them. This attitude is why so many are so helpless in this country.
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
No, radiation can't be hidden. But the REPORTING of radiation can, and HAS been. Either hidden completely or vastly minimized in being reported to the public.


And THAT needed to be said too.

I suspect the public/Government messages as the more they say there is not a crisis or problem the worse the problem generally is. I don't know if the Gov is trying to minimize public panic or they are just incompetent or both.
 

Cascadians

Leska Emerald Adams
THIS IS WHY WE PREP

Really must click on these daily mail articles for incredible pictures.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Americans-panic-buy-anti-radiation-drugs.html
16th March 2011, by David Derbyshire

'Don't panic': Obama calls for calm as terrified Americans panic-buy anti-radiation drugs and Geiger counters over nuclear fall-out fears

U.S. Surgeon General warns Americans to 'be prepared' for harmful radiation from Japan to hit West Coast

Nukepills.com sells 250,000 potassium iodide pills while Anbex gets three orders a MINUTE instead of per week

Packs of 14 pills that usually cost $9.99 changing hands on Amazon.com and eBay for $250 to $400

Geigercounters.com begs people not to place any more orders after it sells out of radiation detection gadgets

Real-time radiation map of U.S. shows levels are currently within normal ranges

Japan Fukushima plant rocked by another fire and two more explosions, bringing the total to four

President Obama: 'No danger of Japan nuclear fallout reaching the U.S.'
President Obama has called for calm as worried Americans panic-buy drugs to protect themselves against the nuclear fallout in Japan and the U.S. Surgeon General warned them to 'be prepared'.

Regina Benjamin said it was right to be prepared for harmful radiation that could blow across to the West Coast following explosions at the Fukushima plant in Japan - in contrast to guidance from state officials.

Ms Benjamin made the remarks to NBC Bay Area while touring a California hospital on Tuesday. Anbex quickly sold out of a 10,000-strong supply of 14-tablet packages of potassium iodide pills on Saturday.

Barack Obama has tried to calm fears by reassuring Americans any nuclear release will dissipate even by the time it gets to Hawaii.


Stocks of the tablets, which aim to stop radiation poisoning the thyroid gland, are running low and customers missing out are said to be ‘crying’ or ‘terrified’.

Company president Alan Morris said the firm was getting three orders per minute for the $10 iOSAT packages - compared to the normal rate of as low as three per week.
‘Those who don't get it are crying,’ he told the Wall Street Journal. ‘They're terrified.’

Fleming Pharmaceuticals, which makes liquid potassium iodide, say they are getting dozens of calls and emails every hour for their 45ml $13.25 ThyroShield bottles.

‘It actually has been insanity here,’ co-owner Deborah Fleming Wurdack said. The company expects to sell out this week and is planning to manufacture more.

The wind near the quake-damaged Fukushima plant, which has released radiation into the atmosphere, will blow out into the Pacific Ocean on Wednesday at 39ft per second, weather officials said.

Radiation in Tokyo was 10 times normal levels on Tuesday, when the wind was blowing from the north and northeast, but now it will blow from the northwest. The news came as Japan's government said it may seek direct U.S. military help to end a crisis at the plant.

Threat level: One U.S. website begged customers not to order any more Geiger counters - devices that measure levels of radiation, shown left - after demand completely outstripped supply while a map of the U.S. with real time radiation counts showed levels on the West coast were well within normal ranges

Drug supplier Nukepills.com sold 250,000 potassium iodide pills and 3,000 liquid doses to pharmacies, labs, companies and hospitals last weekend, president Troy Jones told Fox News.

Most orders came from California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska and Hawaii. It has back-ordered more than a million tablets and donated 50,000 to Japan.

Pills were also changing hands for staggering amounts on the internet. Five sellers on Amazon.com were offering 14 iOSAT potassium iodide tablets - that usually cost $9.99 - for between $250 and $459. Another was selling 900 pills for $7,800.

On eBay packs of 14 pills were selling for between $250 to $300 .

One U.S. website is also begging customers not to order any more Geiger counters - devices that measure levels of radiation - after demand completely outstripped supply for the pocket models, following the warnings.

Geigercounters.com posted on its site today: 'Due to the disaster in Japan, orders for Geiger counters have out-stripped supply. At this point there are simply not enough detectors available to meet the overwhelming demand.'

An update later read: 'The backlog is just too great - don't place any more orders for Geiger counters unless it is the Detector or Prospector models.

A spokesman for the site said they had sold hundreds of the devices, which cost anything from $250 to more than $1,000, since the earthquake last week.

However a map of the U.S. with real time radiation counts from Geiger counters currently shows levels on the West coast are well within normal ranges.

The map on radiationnetwork.com updates as frequently as every three minutes and states radiation levels can range from five to 60 Counts per Minute (CPM) depending on location and altitude.

It also states that the 'Alert Level' for the National Radiation Map is 130CPM.

Scientists have warned of a 'worst-case scenario' in which material blasted into the atmosphere after a Fukushima plant ‘meltdown’ could be blown towards the U.S.
Radioactive iodine can come out of a nuclear reactor in an accident, but other experts say there is a low chance of Japan's radiation reaching the U.S. at dangerous levels.

Fears of 'an apocalypse' were raised as radiation levels soared - and experts warned the crippled Fukushima plant had become a nuclear risk second only to the Chernobyl disaster.

President Obama last night said any fallout from a potential nuclear meltdown in Japan would not affect Americans.

'There are some dangers for radiation release that could affect the immediate vicinity of the nuclear plants, and could potentially drift over other parts of Japan,' he said in an interview with KDKA television in Pittsburgh.

'But I've been assured that any nuclear release dissipates by the time it gets to Hawaii, much less the mainland of the United States.'

Later in another interview he said the situation in Japan provided an opportunity for the U.S. to reevaluate its own security procedures.

'One of the things that it reminds us of is that the safety and the constant monitoring and oversight that we're providing to our nuclear facilities here in the United States has to be maintained,' the President told KOAT television in Albuquerque.

'We have a budget for it. I've already instructed our Nuclear Regulatory Agency to make sure that we take lessons learned from what's happened in Japan and that we are constantly upgrading how we approach our nuclear safety in our country.'

California and Washington states have been reassuring residents their monitoring has not detected any harmful radiation levels - and health officials do not expect to.
‘Japan has an evacuation area of about 12 miles from the nuclear plants. Washington state is 5,000 to 6,000 miles away from Japan,’ a state health spokesman said.

California has been advising residents not to buy the drug, as it could cause side effects in those allergic to shellfish or suffering from thyroid problems.

Kelly Huston of the California Emergency Management Agency said state officials and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission are telling people not to buy the pills.

Potassium iodide, which stops the body from taking in radioactive iodine from a nuclear emergency, can be purchased without a prescription. The salt fills up the thyroid gland and stops it collecting radioactive material - reducing the risk of cancer and other health problems.

But Professor Kathryn Higley, director of the Oregon State University (OSU) nuclear engineering department, said the U.S. West Coast residents should not be worried.

‘We’re going to be lucky if we can even measure any of this,’ she told the Register-Guard. ‘Right now, the expectation is it’s going to be a locally contained event.’

OSU radiation expert Steven Reese added: ‘I would caution anybody against taking potassium iodide in an effort to protect themselves against radioactive iodine.

‘A certain fraction of the population will have an anaphylactic reaction to it - they’ll be allergic to it. And the consequences of that can be severe.'

Meanwhile Japan was consumed by panic again last night as the nuclear crisis threatened to spiral out of control.

Fears of 'an apocalypse' were raised as radiation levels soared - and experts warned the crippled Fukushima plant had become a nuclear risk second only to the Chernobyl disaster.

More than 140,000 residents within 19 miles of the plant were ordered to stay indoors - in addition to the 180,000 already evacuated from the immediate area. Terrified families clogged roads as they tried to flee.

The plant was yesterday rocked by a fire and two more explosions - bringing the total to four. One damaged the concrete and steel walls protecting reactor 2 – as concerns grew that the casing could split and potentially send out a cloud of dangerous radiation.

The alarm spread worldwide. In Europe, some 500 bone marrow transplant centres were put on standby to treat any victims from Japan. And in India, officials demanded that imported Japanese goods be screened for radiation contamination.
In desperation, Tokyo Electric Power, which is responsible for the Fukushima plant, asked U.S. helicopters to drop water on to the building in an attempt to cool a reactor, as radiation levels are too high for people to approach it.

Levels at the site peaked at a dangerous 400 millisieverts yesterday – four times the level that can trigger cancer. However, they had fallen again by the end of the day. Japan ordered a 30-mile no fly zone over the exclusion zone to stop the spread of radiation.

Broadcasts on NHK television had an apocalyptic tone: ‘For those in the evacuation area, close your windows and doors. Switch off your air conditioners. If you are being evacuated, cover yourself as much as possible and wear a facemask. Stay calm.’

Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan told residents: ‘The level seems very high, and there is still a very high risk of more radiation coming out.’

Despite this, officials stressed that radiation levels were safe and called for calm.

Panic spread to Tokyo, where radiation has risen to ten times the normal level. Shoppers stripped food and face-masks from shops and filled outbound trains.
Potassium iodide pills, which deal with the consequences of radiation, were changing hands for £300, instead of a few pounds.
The U.S. took new steps to protect its personnel from radiation by moving warships to safer waters.

At the Yokoshuka Naval Base, 200 miles south of the plant, it told personnel and families to limit time outdoors and to close off ventilation systems ‘as much as practical’.

At least 17 Americans on helicopter missions have been exposed to the equivalent of around a month’s worth of background radiation.

To make matters worse, a fresh earthquake hit Japan, registering 6.2 on the Richter Scale – and the death toll rose above 3,300, although it will inevitably climb further.

The sense of crisis at the nuclear plant has been growing since Friday’s tsunami, caused by a massive earthquake, knocked out the cooling systems essential to prevent the plant’s uranium and plutonium fuel rods from overheating and melting.

Three of the plant’s six nuclear reactors were working when the disaster struck.
Then, on Saturday and Monday morning, fireballs rocked the site when hydrogen gas – released deliberately to ease pressure inside reactors 1 and 3 – ignited. On Monday night, a third hydrogen explosion hit reactor 2 and in the early hours of yesterday morning reactor 4 was rocked by an explosion damaging the roof.

The blast at 2 demolished the building housing the reactor and damaged the 80-inch steel and concrete containment unit that protects the radioactive core.

Damage to the reactor’s core, combined with a breach of the containment unit could be catastrophic.

Japan’s nuclear safety agency said the blast may have hit the unit’s suppression chamber – a large doughnut shaped structure below the core. A crack would have allowed radioactive steam and particles to escape.

In further examples of the alarm worldwide, stocks were hit on both sides of the Atlantic, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average slumping nearly 300 points after trading opened on Wall Street.
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Radiation_Spike_Halted_118076064.html


Radiation Spike Halted Work At Japan Nuke Plant
Japan ordered emergency workers to withdraw from its stricken nuclear plant Wednesday amid a surge in radiation, temporarily suspending efforts to cool the overheating reactors.
Posted: 7:43 AM Mar 16, 2011
Reporter: AP

Japan ordered emergency workers to withdraw from its stricken nuclear plant Wednesday amid a surge in radiation, temporarily suspending efforts to cool the overheating reactors.

A plant official said several hours later that the workers were preparing to return. The official with Tokyo Electric Power said the workers were currently about a half-mile from the complex.


Japan ordered the workers to withdraw from the nuclear plant earlier Wednesday amid a surge in radiation, temporarily suspending efforts to cool the overheating reactors.

"The workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," Edano said, as smoke billowed above the crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex. "Because of the radiation risk we are on standby."

However, Ryohei Shiomi, of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, told CBS News in a phone interview that the plant was never completely abandoned. He would not say how many workers remained inside the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant after the government suggested an evacuation was taking place.

Speaking to CBS Radio News' Lucy Craft earlier on Wednesday, a representative from Tepco, the company which runs the Fukushima plant, said all the workers were back on the job.

Later Wednesday, an attempt to use helicopters to dump water onto the most troubled reactors in a desperate effort to cool them down failed, according to Japanese television reports. National broadcasters showed video of heavy-lift helicopters ferrying massive vessels of water to the plant, but NHK reported the helicopters were forced to turn around to high levels of radiation over the reactors.

The company representative said that earlier in the morning, when radiation emissions spiked around the plant, workers outside were ordered to come into a building inside the plant complex and halt their work. Then, once emissions dropped about an hour later, the workers returned to their posts.

With the differing accounts from the government, the nuclear agency and the power company, it remained unclear whether all the workers had been allowed back in, or if they had ever even left the plant. The workers at the forefront of the fight — a core team of about 70 — had been regularly rotated in and out of the danger zone to minimize their radiation exposure.

Speaking on television after the morning's developments, Edano insisted the radiation levels at Fukushima did not pose a risk to human health, and that the situation at the tsunami-battered plant was under control.

But Reuters news agency was reporting, meanwhile, that radiation levels at Dai-ichi's Unit 3 reactor had reached their highest level, according to Tepco. The report could not be immediately confirmed, and it was unclear how recently the elevated radiation reading was taken -- before or after the apparent evacuation of the plant.

Smoke or steam was earlier seen rising from Unit 3, but the exact nature of the emission was never clarified.

Forecasters and disaster management officials were carefully monitoring the expected wind patterns for Japan, as any radioactive matter released into the atmosphere can be carried for hundreds of miles by wind and then fall back to the ground, contaminating everything from crops to people. The wind on Wednesday was merciful, blowing from west to east and carrying anything in it off Japan's coast and out into the Pacific. But that was forecast to change on Friday, when winds were to turn southward, toward the densely populated Tokyo metropolitan area.

The nuclear crisis has triggered international alarm and partly overshadowed the human tragedy caused by Friday's 9.0-magnitude earthquake and the subsequent tsunami, a blast of black seawater that pulverized Japan's northeastern coastline. The quake was one of the strongest recorded in history.

Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20110316/OSH0101/110315156/0/OSH020502

Japan to spray water, acid on stricken nuke plant
04:13 GMT, Mar. 16, 2011 |

Written by
ERIC TALMADGE,Associated Press
SHINO YUASA,Associated Press
FILED UNDER
Local News

Japanese plant poses little threat to US but could increase if full meltdown occurs
KORIYAMA, Japan (AP) — Japan was considering spraying water and boric acid over a stricken nuclear plant in a desperate measure to contain radiation after officials said Wednesday that many fuel rods were damaged, in an escalating crisis caused by last week's earthquake and tsunami.

Masami Nishimura, a spokesman for Japan's nuclear safety agency, said the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., thought of the measures after a string of explosions and fires at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant.

The latest fire broke out at a reactor early Wednesday, a day after the power plant emitted a burst of radiation that panicked an already edgy Japan following Friday's massive earthquake and tsunami that is estimated to have killed more than 10,000 people.

Hajimi Motujuku, a spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power, or TEPCO, said the outer housing of the containment vessel at the No. 4 unit at the complex caught fire.

On Tuesday, a fire broke out in the same reactor's fuel storage pond — an area where used nuclear fuel is kept cool — causing radioactivity to be released into the atmosphere. TEPCO said the new blaze erupted because the initial fire had not been fully extinguished.

About three hours after the blaze erupted Wednesday, Japan's nuclear safety agency said flames could no longer be seen at Unit 4. But it was unable to confirm that the blaze had been put out, and clouds of white smoke were billowing from the reactor, according to live video footage of the plant.

Also Wednesday, Japan's nuclear safety agency said 70 percent of the nuclear fuel rods may have been damaged at another Fukushima Dai-ichi reactor that was first stricken last week, triggering the crisis.

"But we don't know the nature of the damage, and it could be either melting, or there might be some holes in them," said an agency spokesman, Minoru Ohgoda.

Japan's national news agency, Kyodo, said 33 percent of the fuel rods at a second reactor were also damaged.

The troubles have been caused by overheating of the reactors, which have lost their cooling ability because of damage to equipment from the earthquake and tsunami. Excessive heating will lead to a meltdown of the reactor and release hazardous radiation.


Engineers are desperately trying to cool the reactors and spent fuel rods after the electricity was cut off in the wake of the quake, shutting down their cooling functions.

Boric acid is "important because it captures radiation and helps prevent radiation from leaking," said Nishimura, the safety agency spokesman.

He said the government had also ordered the utility company to immediately spray water on Unit 4.

Both units 1 and 3 have no roof after earlier blasts, making it easy to dump water onto them, he said. Unit 4 has holes in the building, allowing fire trucks to spray water inside, he said.

Boric acid contains boron, which helps slow nuclear reactions by absorbing neutrons, said Naj Meshkati, a nuclear power plant safety expert at the University of Southern California. But the same acid also melted away steel when it was used repeatedly at a troubled northern Ohio nuclear plant.

Radiation levels in areas around the nuclear plant rose early Tuesday afternoon but appeared to subside by evening, officials said. But the unease remained in a country trying to recover from the massive disasters that are believed to have killed more than 10,000 people and battered the world's third-largest economy.

The radiation leak caused the government to order 140,000 people living within 20 miles (30 kilometers) of the plant to seal themselves indoors to avoid exposure, and authorities declared a ban on commercial air traffic through the area. Worries about radiation rippled through Tokyo and other areas far beyond that cordon. The stock market plunged for a second straight day, dropping 10 percent Tuesday. However, the market soared more than 6 percent in Wednesday morning trading.

The re-emergence of the fire at the spent fuel pond in Unit 4 makes that "my biggest worry" because "the spent fuel pool really doesn't have any containment over it and it's very exposed," said Meshkati. "There is radioactive fuel that could cause some problems."

The fire could put all sorts of radioactive isotopes — such as cesium and iodine — into the air, Meshkati said.
 

BlueNewton

Membership Revoked
I second that on the Daily Mail pictures. Astonishing.

I suspect the Russian team waiting to get in and the American team that just arrived are for situation control after all hell cuts loose. The Chernobyl guys know what to do to mediate the mess. That is where we are now.
 

Cascadians

Leska Emerald Adams
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

1359: Kevin Maxwell from Namegata City, Ibaraki Prefecture writes: "We've been following the news and weather reports very closely. The official word is that radiation in my area is still far below dangerous levels. However, the headmaster at the school where my wife teaches received a phone call from a professor he knows at one of Japan's foremost science universities. He was told that radiation of potentially harmful levels had been detected as far away as Yokohama, which is twice as far from Fukushima as we are. Right now I'm not sure what to believe."
 

MickeyMouse

Inactive
Can we get someone like Micky Mouse or some other 'expert' to give us an opinion as to what is going to happen, since obviously this thing is out of control and can't be turned around?

What are we looking at over the next few days, weeks, months and years?

It also bothers me that the Japanese were wanting 'our' military to drop water on these...I've seen what water drops do to forest fires and they are no way as hot as this it. They do next to nothing. Where is Japan's military helicopters? Why can't they do it?

At this point even the experts are not sure what to expect. This is uncharted territory - way beyond anything ever expected (even in nightmares). Add in all kinds of agendas - pro vs anti nuke camps, Japanes "face", government lies, concerns about stock prices and panic if the truth is told - just to name a few!

Things are certainly NOT showing improvement. Supplies are running low (boron requested from S Korea for example) crews are tired. Some may be ill from radiation, many people have no desire to step into the lion's mouth by going to the area. Cooling of the damaged reactors should have resulted in a cold shutdown by now (reference plant II where all units did so) indicating massive fuel damage (or worse).

IF reactor cooling can be maintained,
IF the spent fuel pools can be covered and cooled by water (out of control right now),
IF further hydrogen explosions and fires can be averted,
IF ---- well there are lots of "ifs"
Maybe radiation releases will not grow further out of control. It will take time before we know........
 

Brutus

Inactive
No, radiation can't be hidden. But the REPORTING of radiation can, and HAS been. Either hidden completely or vastly minimized in being reported to the public.


And THAT needed to be said too.

Damn shame that the Japanese own EVERY SINGLE NUCLEAR MONITORING DEVICE ON EARTH so that they can keep this buttoned up the way you say they can.

:rolleyes:
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
I don't watch TV, can't stand the sound of it. What all is being reported on TV? Any chance JQP has any inkling of what's going down?

I don't watch it either. From my fellow commuters, I'd say JQP has about half an inkling. They're still on the core-is-holding, no-mushroom-cloud issues that we quit talking about several days back. They were startled when I mentioned the spent fuel. They also hadn't considered that the explosions took out wiring and piping needed for controlling the core.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
1324: Japan has raised the maximum radiation dose allowed for nuclear workers, to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts. It described the move as "unavoidable due to the circumstances", AP reports.

The announcement came from a Col Cathcart. I'm guessing we will hear further announcements as workers get near the limit. One worker named Yossarian has already refused to go on any more missions. :)
 

rafter

Since 1999
At this point even the experts are not sure what to expect. This is uncharted territory - way beyond anything ever expected (even in nightmares). Add in all kinds of agendas - pro vs anti nuke camps, Japanes "face", government lies, concerns about stock prices and panic if the truth is told - just to name a few!

Things are certainly NOT showing improvement. Supplies are running low (boron requested from S Korea for example) crews are tired. Some may be ill from radiation, many people have no desire to step into the lion's mouth by going to the area. Cooling of the damaged reactors should have resulted in a cold shutdown by now (reference plant II where all units did so) indicating massive fuel damage (or worse).

IF reactor cooling can be maintained,
IF the spent fuel pools can be covered and cooled by water (out of control right now),
IF further hydrogen explosions and fires can be averted,
IF ---- well there are lots of "ifs"
Maybe radiation releases will not grow further out of control. It will take time before we know........

And if none of that happens? Then what. I would be guessing that would be a worst case scenario, which would be...?
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
You just DON'T GET IT, do ya Brutus. It's not JUST the Japanese. Don't you think the leaders of the rest of the world's developed nations have a vested interest in keeping the scope of this radiological disaster under wraps? From a world economic standpoint if not from a nuclear power development one.

:rolleyes: indeed. But not for ME.....
 

rafter

Since 1999
Are we to assume that all other reactor plants in the area are ok? Or are they just not saying since we are focusing on this one.
 

CGTech

Has No Life - Lives on TB
27 Signs That The Nuclear Crisis In Japan Is Much Worse Than Either The Mainstream Media Or The Japanese Government Have Been Telling Us[/B

]How much of a threat is the nuclear crisis in Japan? That question is on the minds of millions of people around the globe tonight. Unfortunately, the Japanese government and the mainstream media have both been doing their best to downplay this crisis. Even though there have been massive explosions at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear facility, authorities in Japan have still been very stingy with information and they keep insisting that the situation is under control. But the situation is not under control. In fact, it just seems to get worse with each passing day. Radiation levels are now incredibly high at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex and the radiation cloud is starting to spread. Radiation levels in Tokyo are already 10 times above normal levels, and there are reports in the international media that some people have begun to flee the city. It is imperative that the Japanese government tell the truth about what is going on because this could potentially affect the health of millions of people. There are over 12 million people in the city of Tokyo alone. If this nuclear crisis continues to get worse it could potentially end up killing more Japanese than the tsunami just did.

Yes, things really are that serious.

We are not just talking about a repeat of Chernobyl.

We are possibly talking about "many Chernobyls".

It is somewhat understandable that the Japanese government and the mainstream media do not want to panic the public, but the reality is that people need the truth about what is going on.

Unfortunately, it is not likely that the Japanese government or the mainstream media are going to "change their stripes" overnight, so in order to try to get an idea of what is really going on we need to look at the clues.

Sometimes it is much more important to watch what people are doing rather than what they are saying.

For example, a significant number of foreign governments are now evacuating personnel from Tokyo.

Why would they be evacuating if there was no threat?

Posted below are 27 signs that the nuclear crisis in Japan is much worse than either the mainstream media or the Japanese government have been telling us. When you take all of these clues and you put them together it really does paint a frightening picture....

#1 Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan is urging all people living within 30 kilometers of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear facility to stay indoors.

#2 Andre-Claude Lacoste, the head of France's Nuclear Safety Authority, says that the containment vessel surrounding the No. 2 reactor at Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex is "no longer sealed".

#3 Radiation levels in Tokyo are already 10 times above normal levels.

#4 Reuters is reporting that some residents of Tokyo are already starting to flee the city.

#5 Radiation levels in one city north of Tokyo, Utsunomiya, were recently reported to be 33 times above normal levels.

#6 Radiation levels in the city of Saitama have been reported to be 40 times above normal levels.

#7 According to Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan, the "possibility of further radioactive leakage is heightening."

#8 The Japanese government is admitting that radiation levels near the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex are very harmful to human health.

#9 According to the World Nuclear Association, exposure to over 100 millisieverts of radiation a year can lead to cancer. At this point the level of radiation being measured right outside the number 4 reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex is 400 millisieverts per hour.

#10 A U.S. Navy crew that was assisting in relief efforts was exposed to a month’s worth of nuclear radiation in just a single hour.

#11 According to the U.S. Navy, low levels of radiation have been detected at their bases in Yokosuka and Atsugi.

#12 The USS Ronald Reagan recently detected significant levels of radiation 100 miles off the Japanese coast.

#13 The operator of the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex has pulled out 750 of the 800 workers that were working at the facility.

#14 The French embassy in Tokyo is advising French citizens to leave the city.

#15 The German embassy in Tokyo is advising all German citizens to leave the country entirely.

#16 German technology company SAP is evacuating their offices in Tokyo.

#17 Austria has announced that it is moving its embassy from Tokyo to Osaka due to fears about the radiation.

#18 Finland is urging all of their citizens to leave Tokyo.

#19 The Czech military is sending planes to Japan specifically to evacuate the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra.

#20 Air China is canceling many flights to Tokyo.

#21 The Chinese Embassy has announced that it will be evacuating all Chinese citizens from the Miyagi, Fukushima, Ibaraki and Iwate prefectures.

#22 Russia is making preparations to evacuate civilians and military units from the Kuril Islands.

#23 Physicist Frank von Hippel recently told the New York Times the following about this disaster: "It’s way past Three Mile Island already".

#24 The president of France's nuclear safety authority says that this crisis is now almost as bad as Chernobyl was....

"It's clear we are at Level 6, that's to say we're at a level in between what happened at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl."
#25 There have been reports of extremely high radiation at another nuclear facility in Japan. It has been reported that at the Onagawa nuclear plant radiation that is 700 times the normal level was detected at one point.

#26 One anonymous senior nuclear industry executive told The Times Of India that Japanese power industry managers are "basically in a full-scale panic" and that "they don't know what to do".

#27 It is also being reported that there were over 600,000 spent fuel rods stored at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex. Most of these rods were apparently stored near the top of the 6 reactor buildings. There have already been major explosions at three of those buildings. It is now feared that there is now nothing to prevent many of these spent fuel rods from releasing radiation into the atmosphere. That is really, really bad news.

So is there a threat that nuclear radiation from Japan could reach the United States?

Well, actually everyone agrees that radiation could reach the United States. The controversy is whether or not it will be enough to be harmful to human health.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission is admitting that it is "quite possible" that nuclear fallout from this disaster could reach the United States. In fact, Nuclear Regulatory Commission spokesman David McIntyre says that there could already be radiation from Japan over America....

Right now it's quite possible that there could be some radiation floating over the United States.
But most government officials in the U.S. are insisting that there is "no threat" to the health of American citizens from this crisis at this point.

So how would nuclear radiation from Japan get transported to the United States?

Well, if radiation released by a damaged nuclear reactor got up into the jet stream, the first major land mass that it would encounter would be North America. In fact, the jet stream commonly takes air from over Japan directly over the west coast of the United States. The following video demonstrates this fact beautifully....



So is there any reason for those of us living in the United States to be concerned?

According to the Japanese government, the U.S. government and the mainstream media there is not.

But do you believe them?

The truth is that they seem much more concerned with keeping the public calm rather than telling the public the truth.

Radiation levels are increasing all over northern and central Japan. People are starting to leave Tokyo and other major cities in the region. Foreign governments are evacuating personnel. Fires continue to erupt at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex. The authorities in Japan seem to have no idea how to solve this crisis.

If even one of those damaged nuclear reactors fully melts down it is going to be a complete and total nightmare. If you live in an area that could potentially be affected by nuclear radiation from Japan you might want to start figuring out how you and your family are going to handle this crisis.

Share and Enjoy:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...-the-japanese-government-have-been-telling-us
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
http://www.pottsmerc.com/articles/2011/03/16/news/doc4d809ceeee0cc311449531.txt?viewmode=fullstory

Japan tsunami: Nothing to do but run (video)
Published: Wednesday, March 16, 2011; Last Updated: Wed. Mar 16, 2011, 7:26am

By Todd Pitman, Associated Press


SHIZUGAWA, Japan (AP) — Growing up in this small fishing town on Japan's northeastern coast, 16-year-old Minami Sato never took the annual tsunami drills seriously.

Video: Americans talk about running from tsunami

She thought the town's thick, two-story-high harbor walls would protect against any big wave. Besides, her home was perched on a hilltop more than a mile (about two kilometers) from the water's edge. It was also just below a designated "tsunami refuge" — an elevated patch of grass that looked safely down across the town's highest four-story buildings.

But the colossal wave that slammed into Shizugawa last week "was beyond imagination," the high-school student said. "There was nothing we could do, but run."

The devastating tsunami that followed Friday's massive earthquake erased Shizugawa from the map, and raised questions about what, if anything, could have been done to prevent it. More than half the town's 17,000 people are missing and scenes of ruin dot the towns and villages along Japan's northeastern coast, devastation not seen here since the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II.

On Wednesday, the official death toll from the tragedy was raised to 3,676 but it is expected climb above 10,000 as nearly 8,000 people are missing. Some 434,000 people were made homeless and are living in shelters.

With each passing day, more and more poignant stories of survivors and victims are emerging.

Immediately after the quake, Katsutaro Hamada, 79, fled to safety with his wife. But then he went back home to retrieve a photo album of his granddaughter, 14-year-old Saori, and grandson, 10-year-old Hikaru.

Just then the tsunami came and swept away his home. Rescuers found Hamada's body, crushed by the first floor bathroom walls. He was holding the album to his chest, Kyodo news agency reported.

"He really loved the grandchildren. But it is stupid," said his son, Hironobu Hamada. "He loved the grandchildren so dearly. He has no pictures of me!"

Shizugawa, 30 miles (50 kilometers) from Hamada's home in Iwate province's Ofunato city, had been preparing for just such a disaster since at least 1960, when the largest earthquake on record — a magnitude 9.5 — hit Chile and triggered a tsunami that swept the entire Pacific Ocean and hit Japan.

A Miyagi prefecture official said the harbor walls, which began to be constructed soon after the tsunami, were completed in 1963.

Every year on the anniversary of that destruction — May 22 — residents of Shizugawa practiced tsunami drills — running to designated refuges on higher ground scattered through town as sirens howled and making arrangements for emergency food and shelter.

The drills were voluntary, but most people took part, said 50-year-old housewife, Katsuko Takahashi, who was sitting in the darkness outside a school turned shelter in Shizugawa, shivering as snow fell.

"I can't say we prepared enough, because half the population is still missing," she said. "But you cannot prepare for a tsunami this big."

When Sato first saw the colossal brown wave rushing toward Shizugawa on Friday afternoon, it looked small enough for the 20-feet-high (6-meter-high) walls along the harbor — hundreds of feet (meters) of thick concrete slabs — to stop it.

But as the tsunami slammed into the harbor edge, it was clear the walls, stretched over a half-mile (a kilometer), would be useless. Sato — watching from her hilltop home — saw the surging water easily engulf not only the walls, but crash over the top of four-story-high buildings in the distance.

Sato grabbed her 79-year-old grandmother and started running up a pathway behind her home to the tsunami refuge.

But there, she saw several dozen people who had gathered already on the move.

"Run!" screamed one. "The water is coming! It's getting higher!" shouted another.

The wave fast approaching, Sato ran up the steps into a Shinto shrine, past a cemetery and kept going, finally coming to a halt out of breath beside a cell phone tower.

The surging sea swept over the refuge below them, picking up 16 cars that had been parked neatly in a row and cramming them chaotically together into a corner of the parking lot.

Below, the ocean had swallowed all of Shizugawa, rising above a four-story mini-mall and the town's hospital, two of the few buildings still standing — but totally gutted — when the wave receded.

"I thought I was going to die," Sato said Tuesday afternoon, as she gathered up two sweaters, two books and a pillow from her ruined house, whose missing front wall looked out over the town, where a line of army-green Japanese Self Defense Force jeeps rode through the destruction.

The harbor wall is now half missing. On one road that still exists in Shizugawa, evacuation routes can still be seen painted into the tarmac.

One shows a blue wave curled around a running human figure. A green arrow indicates a refuge is just a few hundred yards (meters) away — the same one now covered with debris beside Sato's house.

Just around the corner, the road is gone, surrounded by an apocalyptic wasteland of knotted rubble that used to be Shizugawa.
 

Archetype

Veteran Member
Not saying that rad levels are higher than what they're claiming. BUT the TPTB would have EVERY reason to suppress them if they were. A healthy dose of skepticism is NOT paranoia. And even it was, being paranoid might not be a bad thing when something like this is going on.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
And if none of that happens? Then what. I would be guessing that would be a worst case scenario, which would be...?

Radioactive plumes for weeks or months. I'm guessing heavy lift helicopters will be fitted with remote controls to fly in and dump damping materials. Someone should be doing that right now. Next step is remotely operated bulk conveyer belts on tracks to be built and moved in to cover the plants.
 

MickeyMouse

Inactive
All that I can see being done now is the same thing they did in Chernobyl. Drop rocks on the entire establishment from high altitude until buried. Then from a lower altitude start dropping smaller rocks and dirt, from there cover it in cement. Yes, this will take months and yes the faster they act the less radiation will destroy the waters and lands. I would have started working on this plan last week.

Your comments indicate a lack of understanding as to what the problems were at Chernobyl and how the Russians dealt with them. Chernobyl was an OPEN reactor that was on fire (graphite) and they were concerned about the heat, among other things. Sand and boron were dropped INTO the reactor vessel, not over it or the entire plant. The boron was to reduce any nuclear chain reaction, if present. (Same as pumping boric acid into a hot reactor.) The sand was to deny oxygen to a graphite fire. Both operations accomplished their goal but all the helicopters were so contaminated they were scrapped on site. (Billions of $$). Most of the crews flying them died as well. Large amounts of fuel and graphite was blown out of the reactor and was lying on roofs and the ground around the plant. Liquidators, essentially suicide workers, shoveled that stuff up and threw it back into the reactor or buried it. Most of them died. Later, additional sand was dumped into the reactor to try and cover more of the radioactive chunks that had been shoveled in. When crews finally got into the basement, they found the reactor was empty of fuel - it had melted and flowed into the lower reaches of the facility, melted and fused with the sand forming glass.

The building erected over Chernobyl #4 is an open structure. They wanted to keep the many tons of radioactive dust from being disturbed and reduce rainfall into the damaged facitiy (it would spread the contamination among other things). Air flow through the place was necessary for many years in order to cool it. Cover it with concrete and cooling is a problem. In addition, once entombed in concrete, monitoring and any remedial work needed becomes VERY difficult.

The situation in Japan is vastly different. There is no graphite fire. There are no open reactors (although the spent fuel pools ARE open and of great concern). No open pit like the Chernobyl reactor to dump sand or concrete INTO. Building a "mound" over four reactor buildings is not only impractical but ill advised at this point. as it would aggravate the situation rather than help it.

Control of any impulse to PANIC must be tamped down. It helps no one and solves nothing. There are a lot of folks working on this that really DO have a pretty good idea how to deal with at least part of the problem! It is a huge engineering classroom. This stuff will be taught in universities for decades!
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Not saying that rad levels are higher than what they're claiming. BUT the TPTB would have EVERY reason to suppress them if they were. A healthy dose of skepticism is NOT paranoia. And even it was, being paranoid might not be a bad thing when something like this is going on.

The authorites are caught between a rock and a hard place. A 9.0 earthquake would strain resources to the breaking point but then add to it a Tsunami and nuclear disaster? It's amazing they are handling it as well as they are. Panic is contagious as is calm and rational thinking. The Japanese for the first few days kept calm about the situation but as the calm starts to disapper so do the problems of society that we saw during Katrina. That is the last thing they need right now is the panicked herds running for the hills. I don't trust government further than I could throw them and that is why I have my own radiological survey and dose rate equipment and know how to use them. Contamination avoidance and decontamination isn't rocket science and almost anybody can do it but the first thing to do is to stay calm and rational. Once you lose that you might as well pack it in because all your going to do is to spin your wheels.
 
No, radiation can't be hidden. But the REPORTING of radiation can, and HAS been. Either hidden completely or vastly minimized in being reported to the public.


And THAT needed to be said too.

There are websites run by citizens running their own monitors... they couldn't suppress it if they tried. Japan is too connected and too paranoid.

TEPCO can try all they want, they'll fail.
 

Cascadians

Leska Emerald Adams
significant to their culture

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-emperor-20110317,0,5440665.story
By Laura King and Kenji Hall, Los Angeles Times
March 16, 2011, 7:00 a.m.

Emperor Akihito's speech underlines gravity of Japan's nuclear crisis
Instead of arcane court language, Emperor Akihito addresses the Japanese people in an unusually direct pattern of speech amounting to an imperial pep talk. He insists that the broadcaster interrupt his recorded speech if there are developments in the nuclear crisis.

Reporting from Tokyo — His voice was measured, his language formal, his demeanor somber. It was perhaps the clearest sign yet of just how grave Japan's nuclear crisis had become: The emperor spoke.

Akihito, the nation's 77-year-old sovereign, delivered an unprecedented address to his people on Wednesday in which he urged calm, perseverance and solidarity in "the difficult days that lie ahead." As the pre-recorded speech was broadcast, workers redoubled their frantic efforts to stave off a catastrophic meltdown at a nuclear complex on Japan's northern coast, devastated five days earlier by an earthquake and tsunami.

Wearing a dark suit and muted indigo tie, the emperor spoke from a reception room at the Imperial Palace, seated before a wood-framed backdrop whose appearance evoked a traditional Japanese shoji screen of rice paper. He began with a slight bow, urging victims of the disaster not to abandon hope.

"We don't know how many have died," he said. "It is my hope that many lives will be saved."

Often, Japanese court language is so arcane as to be nearly incomprehensible. In his five-minute address, though, Akihito used unusually direct patterns of speech -- still highly mannered, but amounting by palace standards to almost an imperial pep talk to a beleaguered nation.

"I am deeply concerned about the nuclear situation, and hope it will be resolved," the emperor said. "I hope things will take a turn for the better."

Despite ancient dynastic roots, the Japanese monarchy has changed with the times -- to a certain extent. No longer is the emperor regarded as a living god, as was the case for centuries. Still, Akihito is a much-revered figure.

There is precedent for the sovereign to offer public condolences and comfort in times of national crisis. In 1995, Akihito and his wife, the Empress Michiko, visited victims of the Kobe earthquake. That temblor killed about 6,400 people -- a toll expected to be dwarfed by the loss of life in this one.

In 1945, it fell to Akihito's father, Hirohito, to renounce his status as a divinity -- and to deliver to the Japanese people the news that the country had surrendered to the Allies. But in that scratchy radio recording, the imperial language was so freighted with ceremonial phrases and studied ambiguity that few of those listening, who were hearing the emperor's voice for the first time, actually grasped his meaning.

Employing what might have been the ultimate Japanese understatement in that famous address, Hirohito told his subjects that war developments were "not necessarily to Japan's advantage." And in an odd historical echo, he spoke of the strange and terrible power of the atomic bombs that had devastated the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki .

Although Japan's modern-day tabloids sometimes strike a gossipy tone when talking about members of the current royal family -- aggressively dissecting Empress Michiko's stress-related ailments, or the failure of her daughter-in-law, Crown Princess Masako, to produce a male heir -- there is rarely, if ever, a disrespectful word uttered of Akihito.

And normally, no one would dream of interrupting the emperor. But before the speech was telecast twice by the public broadcaster NHK, Akihito, according to the Asahi newspaper, gave a particular instruction. If there were an important development related to the ongoing catastrophe, the control room should do what it would normally do: Break in with the news.
 

MDINMT

Veteran Member
Your comments indicate a lack of understanding as to what the problems were at Chernobyl and how the Russians dealt with them. Chernobyl was an OPEN reactor that was on fire (graphite) and they were concerned about the heat, among other things. Sand and boron were dropped INTO the reactor vessel, not over it or the entire plant. The boron was to reduce any nuclear chain reaction, if present. (Same as pumping boric acid into a hot reactor.) The sand was to deny oxygen to a graphite fire. Both operations accomplished their goal but all the helicopters were so contaminated they were scrapped on site. (Billions of $$). Most of the crews flying them died as well. Large amounts of fuel and graphite was blown out of the reactor and was lying on roofs and the ground around the plant. Liquidators, essentially suicide workers, shoveled that stuff up and threw it back into the reactor or buried it. Most of them died. Later, additional sand was dumped into the reactor to try and cover more of the radioactive chunks that had been shoveled in. When crews finally got into the basement, they found the reactor was empty of fuel - it had melted and flowed into the lower reaches of the facility, melted and fused with the sand forming glass.

The building erected over Chernobyl #4 is an open structure. They wanted to keep the many tons of radioactive dust from being disturbed and reduce rainfall into the damaged facitiy (it would spread the contamination among other things). Air flow through the place was necessary for many years in order to cool it. Cover it with concrete and cooling is a problem. In addition, once entombed in concrete, monitoring and any remedial work needed becomes VERY difficult.

The situation in Japan is vastly different. There is no graphite fire. There are no open reactors (although the spent fuel pools ARE open and of great concern). No open pit like the Chernobyl reactor to dump sand or concrete INTO. Building a "mound" over four reactor buildings is not only impractical but ill advised at this point. as it would aggravate the situation rather than help it.

Control of any impulse to PANIC must be tamped down. It helps no one and solves nothing. There are a lot of folks working on this that really DO have a pretty good idea how to deal with at least part of the problem! It is a huge engineering classroom. This stuff will be taught in universities for decades!

So anyone proposing a solution is panicing? And they are shtupid too? Gotcha...
 

MickeyMouse

Inactive
And if none of that happens? Then what. I would be guessing that would be a worst case scenario, which would be...?

Rafter, I just shared the opinion that no body really KNOWS what the future holds. All the crystal balls are broken. Watch, learn, try to understand what is happening. I doubt it will have a lot of impact here other than some lost sleep. There HAS been some radiactive material released into the environemnt. Likely there will be more. How much is unknown. Predictions on that are all over the map depending on the predictor's knowledge and agenda.

Nuclear knowledgeable folks are working on many separate parts of a very complex set of problems. The only way to solve it is avoid panic, solve each problem one at a time. We should do the same. Plan what you will do should any SIGNIFICANT fallout arrive here. PLAN how you will prep for the NEXT disaster rather than face it the same way many folks are facing THIS one, unprepared at all.

I really wish I could give a better answer but that is about all I really can do.
 
Not saying that rad levels are higher than what they're claiming. BUT the TPTB would have EVERY reason to suppress them if they were. A healthy dose of skepticism is NOT paranoia. And even it was, being paranoid might not be a bad thing when something like this is going on.

Which is why you have hundreds of Japanese running their own Geiger counters right now, many of them broadcasting on things like UStream, the links have been shared here before. If something catastrophic happens we will know within minutes, no matter how much TEPCO and/or the Japanese (and other) government would wish we didn't.
 
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-emperor-20110317,0,5440665.story
By Laura King and Kenji Hall, Los Angeles Times
March 16, 2011, 7:00 a.m.

Emperor Akihito's speech underlines gravity of Japan's nuclear crisis
Instead of arcane court language, Emperor Akihito addresses the Japanese people in an unusually direct pattern of speech amounting to an imperial pep talk. He insists that the broadcaster interrupt his recorded speech if there are developments in the nuclear crisis.

Reporting from Tokyo — His voice was measured, his language formal, his demeanor somber. It was perhaps the clearest sign yet of just how grave Japan's nuclear crisis had become: The emperor spoke.

Akihito, the nation's 77-year-old sovereign, delivered an unprecedented address to his people on Wednesday in which he urged calm, perseverance and solidarity in "the difficult days that lie ahead." As the pre-recorded speech was broadcast, workers redoubled their frantic efforts to stave off a catastrophic meltdown at a nuclear complex on Japan's northern coast, devastated five days earlier by an earthquake and tsunami.

Wearing a dark suit and muted indigo tie, the emperor spoke from a reception room at the Imperial Palace, seated before a wood-framed backdrop whose appearance evoked a traditional Japanese shoji screen of rice paper. He began with a slight bow, urging victims of the disaster not to abandon hope.

"We don't know how many have died," he said. "It is my hope that many lives will be saved."

Often, Japanese court language is so arcane as to be nearly incomprehensible. In his five-minute address, though, Akihito used unusually direct patterns of speech -- still highly mannered, but amounting by palace standards to almost an imperial pep talk to a beleaguered nation.

"I am deeply concerned about the nuclear situation, and hope it will be resolved," the emperor said. "I hope things will take a turn for the better."

Despite ancient dynastic roots, the Japanese monarchy has changed with the times -- to a certain extent. No longer is the emperor regarded as a living god, as was the case for centuries. Still, Akihito is a much-revered figure.

There is precedent for the sovereign to offer public condolences and comfort in times of national crisis. In 1995, Akihito and his wife, the Empress Michiko, visited victims of the Kobe earthquake. That temblor killed about 6,400 people -- a toll expected to be dwarfed by the loss of life in this one.

In 1945, it fell to Akihito's father, Hirohito, to renounce his status as a divinity -- and to deliver to the Japanese people the news that the country had surrendered to the Allies. But in that scratchy radio recording, the imperial language was so freighted with ceremonial phrases and studied ambiguity that few of those listening, who were hearing the emperor's voice for the first time, actually grasped his meaning.

Employing what might have been the ultimate Japanese understatement in that famous address, Hirohito told his subjects that war developments were "not necessarily to Japan's advantage." And in an odd historical echo, he spoke of the strange and terrible power of the atomic bombs that had devastated the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki .

Although Japan's modern-day tabloids sometimes strike a gossipy tone when talking about members of the current royal family -- aggressively dissecting Empress Michiko's stress-related ailments, or the failure of her daughter-in-law, Crown Princess Masako, to produce a male heir -- there is rarely, if ever, a disrespectful word uttered of Akihito.

And normally, no one would dream of interrupting the emperor. But before the speech was telecast twice by the public broadcaster NHK, Akihito, according to the Asahi newspaper, gave a particular instruction. If there were an important development related to the ongoing catastrophe, the control room should do what it would normally do: Break in with the news.


This is a very, very important detail.. lots of things are happening that have not happened since war time (including taking pictures of bodies for identification later, since there is not room to preserve them). Underscores the devastation that Japan as seen.
 

MickeyMouse

Inactive
So anyone proposing a solution is panicing? And they are shtupid too? Gotcha...

Proposing a solution to a problem one has little understanding of is not often useful. Much more can be accomplished by learning as much as possible about the problem first. I do the best I can to point folks to some of that, although I am surely no professor! Study of Chernobyl and what went on there requires MANY hours of reading of a HUGE amount of information all over the web, in books, pictures and videos - and for those who get the opportunity, at the actual site. I have only scratched the surface. Most people seem not to be interested until a crisis comes up then it is a mad rush to try and catch up.



There is a LOT of panic - both in Japan AND the US. What does that solve? Zero.

No gotcha because I NEVER said "stupid". Haven't used the word, not once, in this entire thread.

IGNORANT, yes. Ignorant is a lack of learning, not a lack of intelligence. Stupid is permanent, ignorant can be corrected. I work on reducing MY ignorance every day - one of the reasons I waste so much time on internet forums!!
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
After looking and doing some reading it looks like that all the atomic power plants if they go down like these did, they only have 36 hours or a little less to get the pumps running again or they lost control of it.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
There are websites run by citizens running their own monitors... they couldn't suppress it if they tried. Japan is too connected and too paranoid.

TEPCO can try all they want, they'll fail.


I'm sure. And I'm also sure that these people have been "asked" by the government to not release alarming data until AFTER the crisis is over. And I'm also sure that these people agreed (at gunpoint if necessary.)



And HFC said:

Contamination avoidance and decontamination isn't rocket science and almost anybody can do it but the first thing to do is to stay calm and rational.

Well, *I* think you should just sit under a tree and pray. After all, God will spare you. Right?
 
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