OP-ED WE HIT A NERVE Chuck Baldwin

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes."

[Revelation 18:4-5]
 

Emily

One Day Closer
Emily, I completely respect your position.

However, I feel compelled to point out that if the men and women stood in the same manner as you in 1776, we would have no new nation.

We would still be beholden to a King, who may or may not allow you to worship in your own way.

And, that is no different than serving another master.

And, that is no different than serving at the will of despots, leftists, socialists - who choose your path for you and dictate whether or not you can worship at all let alone worship in which way you choose.

Men and women have always fought for this nation from it's inception until present day. In that job, they sometimes kill.

If God puts a rifle in my hands, I will do His will just as the archangel I am named after does His will.

If I am going to die, I'm going to die fighting for God and not submit to the army of darkness inspired to kill by the devil himself.

Mike

Thank you for the reasoned response. The difference is - is that
1. We have NOT exhausted all paths available to us. Our forefathers did not choose physical conflict until it was the only way left.
2. If we truly honor God and expect Him to be on our side - we must first do all we can to call people to repentance and let Him be our victor instead of taking things into our own hands.

Too many of the people who are following Chuck and Ron are also quick to condemn what Glenn Beck did because they find one thing or another wrong with Glenn and if that fails then the conspiracy theories take them where they want to go.

That is not of God.

I have taken this to prayer and God has used a jackass when men would not follow Him and Jesus said if the rocks would have called out His entrance into Jerusalem if the people had not.

What a shame that a man who calls himself a pastor (Baldwin) calls people to bear arms before he made as sincere an effort to call the nation to repentance as Glenn did.

We have a strong chance of turning this country around in November and I know that because the enemy is scared and God has put hope in my heart.

But we need ALL patriots to join us to succeed.

Those who will not join us to help win this country back through the ballot box before taking up arms, I will not stand with when they try to do it by the bullet box.
 

Emily

One Day Closer
I double down with Mr. Paine myself. Emily is right. For Emily. Those ready to fight are right. For them.

The Body of Christ is not all fist. It is not all heart. It is not all feet. It is not all mouth. It is made of many parts each with different functions. It only works when each part does its part and does its part in harmony with the rest of the Body.

We all need to find our place in the Body of Christ and do what we were called to do. My place is as prayer warrior. It is as wrong of me to try to make a Marine fist fight like me, as it would be for a Marine fist to expect me to swing at the enemy in the physical world the same way they do. I do my part, they do theirs (theoretically speaking).

How do we make this work? All of us have to be committed to seeking God and what He would have us as both an aggregate body do, and what each of us as individual parts should do to support that.

To do that compromise will have to be made by all of us because obviously none of us thinks precisely the same. Just as it was when founding the Republic and as Emily described above.

And Betshaya, the one commonality to all the good examples you offered was a strong USA that could be counted on to stand with her friends and allies against all that desired to deprive others of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Unfortunately, those we stood against for all those years have taken seats of power in DC and the USA can no longer be counted on to do right by itself much less by those who desire to do right but need the help and threat of help we used to wield.

Well said.

As I was reading your response, the following thoughts came to mind.

Freedom and slavery is as much a state of mind as it is a state of being.

Those who already feel that they have lost the USA and to fight or die is their only option have already taken their position in slavery to their overseers and await their freedom.

I do not see man having any control over me that God does not give to them.
I have seen and experienced too many miracles in my life in the face of the worst things man has tried to do to me and emerged at peace and a victor - in my own heart. Not because I was able to change anything but because of where my heart and peace was found.

Peace is not when man stops warring against man (from the family war to the world war) but true peace is when each man stops warring against God. Jesus is our reconciliation and is our perfect peace that passes all human understanding.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.


I am free and will remain free because our Lord purchased me with His perfect sacrifice. For eternity I am forever indebted and a servant to Him.

If there is other physical struggles to go through, I have no doubt that it will be to His glory as it will be at His will.

If we respond to the events of this world by feeling that only our might and bullets is the answer then how are we different than those who are not indwelt by His Holy Spirit or children of the creator of the universe?

We must turn to God first and let Him guide our destiny. Otherwise, we are just fools on a mission of man.

The founding fathers sought God first and He honored them in their goals.
Matthew 5
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 

mt4design

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thank you for the reasoned response. The difference is - is that
1. We have NOT exhausted all paths available to us. Our forefathers did not choose physical conflict until it was the only way left.
2. If we truly honor God and expect Him to be on our side - we must first do all we can to call people to repentance and let Him be our victor instead of taking things into our own hands.

Too many of the people who are following Chuck and Ron are also quick to condemn what Glenn Beck did because they find one thing or another wrong with Glenn and if that fails then the conspiracy theories take them where they want to go.

That is not of God.

I have taken this to prayer and God has used a jackass when men would not follow Him and Jesus said if the rocks would have called out His entrance into Jerusalem if the people had not.

What a shame that a man who calls himself a pastor (Baldwin) calls people to bear arms before he made as sincere an effort to call the nation to repentance as Glenn did.

We have a strong chance of turning this country around in November and I know that because the enemy is scared and God has put hope in my heart.

But we need ALL patriots to join us to succeed.

Those who will not join us to help win this country back through the ballot box before taking up arms, I will not stand with when they try to do it by the bullet box.

Emily, I am right there with you :)

I agree absolutely.

But, as a realist, I see Glenn's efforts and applaud and hope and pray but I know that Glenn is a pacifist and pacifists did not win our freedom from England.

My own feelings of patriotism, love of country and reverence to God do not come from men like Beck or Baldwin.

In my sig I have quoted a mere part of Patrick Henry's speech. My late father read it to me first when I was in elementary school.

I feel it was divine guidance which puts such thoughts in our minds and strings such beautiful words together...

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

IMHO, the chains of our time are already forged. Their clanking can be heard in the corruption of our elected leaders and felt in criminal actions of our government as it acts illegally against the very founding principals of this nation.

I completely respect your position. I completely accept your stand.

I do not believe you are any less a patriot nor any more a believer in God.

I do believe, however, that we have different paths on this journey and I pray you are successful. I promise to do what ever I can to exhaust every peaceful option.

With sincere respect...

Mike
 

Emily

One Day Closer
Emily, I am right there with you :)

I agree absolutely.

But, as a realist, I see Glenn's efforts and applaud and hope and pray but I know that Glenn is a pacifist and pacifists did not win our freedom from England.

My own feelings of patriotism, love of country and reverence to God do not come from men like Beck or Baldwin.

In my sig I have quoted a mere part of Patrick Henry's speech. My late father read it to me first when I was in elementary school.

I feel it was divine guidance which puts such thoughts in our minds and strings such beautiful words together...



IMHO, the chains of our time are already forged. Their clanking can be heard in the corruption of our elected leaders and felt in criminal actions of our government as it acts illegally against the very founding principals of this nation.

I completely respect your position. I completely accept your stand.

I do not believe you are any less a patriot nor any more a believer in God.

I do believe, however, that we have different paths on this journey and I pray you are successful. I promise to do what ever I can to exhaust every peaceful option.

With sincere respect...

Mike
Thank you so much Mike for your beautiful response.

I pray that your destiny is not one of battle but one of a leader in peace.

With that said...

This is not the 18th century and our enemies already have their own cells in place here and are organized. The weapons stockpiled against us of multiple enemies are too great for us to have any victory without divine intervention.

I certainly do not feel that there is any difference between us in our reverence for God and I honor your position too.

However, without us letting Him lead, then there is zero hope of winning.

Here is a list of the battles currently in the undercurrent here:

Black against white.
Mexicans against white.
Rich vs poor.
Middle class vs everyone else.
Liberal vs Conservative.
Muslim vs everyone else.

And then our nuclear and with large armies who are our enemies and would love to see a civil war weakened USA.
Russia
China
Venezuela
North Korea
Iran

If anyone thinks that a disorganized, no leader, group of patriots can win against all of that without God being 100% behind a repentant group - then I would say that reality is eluded them and they are thinking that a civil war today would be as romantic as the movies make the first one look.

I pray we can all unite in November and vote for winnable conservative candidates and put our hope first in that peaceful solution.

Thank you again,
God bless and good night.
Em
 

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
Wow.

Emily and Mike, I believe you both should be nominated for the "TB2K Civil Discourse of 2010" award.

Emily, I respect your position. It is reasoned, passionate, and concise. I ask that you pray for those Americans that plan to stand in the gap.

However, IF, as you suggest, the entire world is stacked against us (for the record, I believe the light bearer is behind all this angst) then no elections will save us.

Further, should "conservatives" win big in 2010, the backlash will be more severe.

Principalities, powers, and other levels of spiritual warfare have done more in the last 18 months to consolidate power against the righteous, than in the past several decades.

When the light of Liberty goes out in the City on the Hill, that light goes out in the rest of the world. The powers of darkness know this, which is why they wish to hew down the Tree of Liberty. At this point, the tree is marked, blows have been struck, and the demon's are sharpening their axe heads for the final fatal blows. They plan to salt the stump and destroy the memory of Liberty for all time.

At some point, this game is for ALL the marbles.

If this is indeed a Luciferian conspiracy, Katy bar the door.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Peace

Palmetto
 

Emily

One Day Closer
Wow.

Emily and Mike, I believe you both should be nominated for the "TB2K Civil Discourse of 2010" award.

Emily, I respect your position. It is reasoned, passionate, and concise. I ask that you pray for those Americans that plan to stand in the gap.

However, IF, as you suggest, the entire world is stacked against us (for the record, I believe the light bearer is behind all this angst) then no elections will save us.

Further, should "conservatives" win big in 2010, the backlash will be more severe.

Principalities, powers, and other levels of spiritual warfare have done more in the last 18 months to consolidate power against the righteous, than in the past several decades.

When the light of Liberty goes out in the City on the Hill, that light goes out in the rest of the world. The powers of darkness know this, which is why they wish to hew down the Tree of Liberty. At this point, the tree is marked, blows have been struck, and the demon's are sharpening their axe heads for the final fatal blows. They plan to salt the stump and destroy the memory of Liberty for all time.

At some point, this game is for ALL the marbles.

If this is indeed a Luciferian conspiracy, Katy bar the door.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Peace

Palmetto

All of what you say may be true about the inevitable. However, that is why it is 100% more prudent that we make sure we know, understand, and base our decisions on God's approval.

There is nothing impossible with Him to those who love Him and honor Him.

Then, as we move forward, we can be confident that He is in the midst of it and no matter what happens, we know it is with His blessing.

But if we lean on man's understanding and wisdom and decide that the election is not where God's miracles will be but only in the throws of battle than I would worry about the outcome against insurmountable odds as I listed above.
 
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rmomaha

The Wise Man Prepares
Your premise is based on the idea that the current issues with tyranny are the same ones in the end times.I am a Christian my fate as to the afterlife are already sealed, however it is my belief that I am to take a stand against evil in the earthly realm also. This can be done many ways as there are many types of warriors, some can choose the way of peaceful civil disobedience, others may choose to stand and take the fight to the oppressors of freedom.It all depends on what God puts on/in your heart. I believe we are to STAND for freedom or right or whatever the cause. We are already saved, we should fight for freedom because no man knows that this battle or the next battle is the last great battle and to not fight means we will simply give away what God has provided and we have won with his Davine help and cherished over time.

By your reasoning, then Christians living in countries with oppressive governments like China should revolt also. The only freedom we are ever guaranteed in this life and the next is freedom in Christ. The only thing that believers can do now is fulfill the Great Commission as commanded by Christ. He never told us to take up arms and fight our earthly masters.
 

conundrum

Inactive
Is Chuck Baldwin part of militant Christiandom ? Does he seek to set up a theocracy here and now? I am confused as his column has always sounded
as if he is a "the world becomes worse and wait on the rapture" person.

I'm just starting to research the militant way of thinking as it is new to me. So far it seems to be very prevalent in the churches today. This is very different from be salt and light.
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
By your reasoning, then Christians living in countries with oppressive governments like China should revolt also. The only freedom we are ever guaranteed in this life and the next is freedom in Christ. The only thing that believers can do now is fulfill the Great Commission as commanded by Christ. He never told us to take up arms and fight our earthly masters.

If that is what they feel led to do then yes. My point is we all are called to serve in different ways. Some through passive civil disobedience and some as warriors on the field of battle when the time comes. I am not saying it's time to go to shooting people and cutting throats but I am saying that that time may come and when it does there will people , Christians , who feel that is what they have been led to do. You are not fighting for your earthly master but yourself, and your loved ones.He did say if you didn't have a sword to sell a coat and buy one as he would not always be there to provide all the protection you needed. There are 2 schools of thought here one is you have faith and believe enough to just stand and let evil roll over you because He will take care of you, and the second where you have faith and belief and you stand against evil because it is our duty as Christians to do so. God loves his warriors as much as he loves is priests and holy men.
 
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