POL Can anyone who is not a Christian or Jew be a good American?

So, we've had some pretty heated discussions recently about what constitutes a good American and particularly whether a (good) Muslim can ever be considered a good American. One of the themes that keeps emerging is the idea that one must hold Christian values to be a good American. That could mean a lot of things. Western culture has a diverse heritage that is very much rooted in values that are at least common with Christianity, some predating it and some descending directly from it. Some would probably say that subscribing to ethics common with those espoused by Christianity is sufficient, while others would no doubt require adopting the actual religion. My suspicion based on recent threads is that TB2K leans decidedly toward the latter. But, I could be wrong about that and this is an easy way to find out.

you can not define American by race, sex, religion or ethnic heritage.
That was the greatness of America.

We did not have problems with the Melting Pot Assimilated American citizens.
We have a crisis with the Salad Bowl Diversity American citizens.

To be at peace you have to belong to the same tribe or live in the same herd ..... (no offense to anyone)

I would turn the question around, "can you be a good American, if you are deeply religious?" I would say "no" Look how many of those with strong beliefs, want to pass laws to make others follow their beliefs.

I thought the USA was built on Freedom.

To me that means allowing others to make decisions I don't approve of, so that I can make my own decisions without interference, even if those decisions are ones others do not approve of. But how many deeply religious Christians believe in allowing others to make decisions that do not conform to their religion? As far as I can tell - none. They pass laws, that only allow decisions they approve of. Any other decision is illegal. IMO, that isn’t freedom.

And it not just freedom they don’t believe, they also believe in disenfranchising people. Millions of people, who pay are pro-choice, and lots of corporations who also support abortion, pay taxes, but deeply religious Christians won’t let any government tax dollars pay for abortions. The small minority of Christians who contribute a part of the federal governments money, decide, how *all* that money is spent.

It doesn’t matter how those who are pro-choice vote, their vote doesn't count. They have been disenfranchised.

So can you be a deeply religious Christian, and pro freedom, and pro-democracy? Well the actions of the relgious right would seem to say "no".

Anrol

Anrol15

I would say abortion is the end of life no matter what religion you are. And it is better to err on the side of life. Once life becomes death, it can not be undone. But once life is conceived the possibilities for that life are far reaching.

If You dont want a kid, then take precautions,
dont "do it",
or adopt it out.
or keep it and raise it with your OWN MONEY.
Dont ask someone else to pay for killing it.

either Buy your own coat hanger or pay for your own medical bills. But that should be your actions that you are personally accountable for. Not me! Dont ask the government to raise my tax to pay for your mistakes.

as far as religion is concerned, its more about the morality that accompanies the religion. Usually people who carefully adhere to and follow the Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Quaker or Budhist Faith (religion) dont need laws or cops or jails or subsistence food and housing or drug counceling or sex change operations or rehab. I said most who practice, not all as there are always some who cant handle the temptations and fall along the way.

You can not be a bad guy and starve and beat your wife and kids and dogs and steal from your boss and neighbors and demand subsistance without interfering with your good guy neighbor who loves and feeds and cares for and provides for his family and church with his incomes.

The good guys dont need the man made laws. They have already been provided in the Bible.

Observant Christians lobby for laws consistent with their beliefs, just like any other group does. Environmentalists lobby for laws consistent with their beliefs. I don't like many of the laws and regulations coming out of those groups, but, hey, this is a Republic. The law of the land, is the law of the land.

Abortion IS one of those issues where those who support it, can give their own money to provide for abortions. Taxpayers are not given the option.

Meanwhile, Islamic radicals vow to kill non-believers, and they do.

The real question is...Are we all the same?

Our nation and the notion of America has over the last 50 years insisted that we are neither unique nor are the founding principals unique to the people from where these principals came and/or their direct descendants.

Is multicultural egalitarianism conducive to a healthy and strong society?

Anrol5 said:

I would turn the question around, "can you be a good American, if you are deeply religious?" I would say "no" Look how many of those with strong beliefs, want to pass laws to make others follow their beliefs.

I thought the USA was built on Freedom.

To me that means allowing others to make decisions I don't approve of, so that I can make my own decisions without interference, even if those decisions are ones others do not approve of. But how many deeply religious Christians believe in allowing others to make decisions that do not conform to their religion? As far as I can tell - none. They pass laws, that only allow decisions they approve of. Any other decision is illegal. IMO, that isn’t freedom.

And it not just freedom they don’t believe, they also believe in disenfranchising people. Millions of people, who pay are pro-choice, and lots of corporations who also support abortion, pay taxes, but deeply religious Christians won’t let any government tax dollars pay for abortions. The small minority of Christians who contribute a part of the federal governments money, decide, how *all* that money is spent.

It doesn’t matter how those who are pro-choice vote, their vote doesn't count. They have been disenfranchised.

So can you be a deeply religious Christian, and pro freedom, and pro-democracy? Well the actions of the relgious right would seem to say "no".

Anrol

Click to expand...

Anrol, very well said. Some of us that don't go to brick and mortars have PERSONAL very high moral standards, which we do not push on other people. I truly believe that there are many paths to God, and for me to judge any of them is just wrong. I don't know what happened thousands of years ago, or which path is "the right one", but I do know that if I walk the one that lets me sleep well at night, and follow "The Golden Rule" that is universal among ALL religions, I'll do okay. No one group has the right to dictate how another lives. And our government has no business in "Faith-based" anything.

Adherence to either Jewish or Christian doctrine is not necessary to be a good American.

Adherence to the moral and ethical code in dealing with others and the world that is established in both is. The Judoe-Christian moral and ethical base gave birth to the tenets the Republic was established under.

You cannot have 2 people that have dichotomous moral and ethical views peacefully coexist. If someone's idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is wrapped up in depriving you of yours there can be no respectful and orderly relationship. Until the one that desires deprivation of the others is victorious. That's not coexistence though now is it?

The same goes for groups of people.

Islam and the Koran present a theological political system that supports their morals and ethics. It runs contrary to the Judeo-Christian moral and ethical bases that birthed the Republic's democratic process.

Muslims intend to use the freedom allowed to ultimately deprive all non Muslims of theirs. History and current event around the globe show no other depiction or reality.

what about agnostics etc, patriotism has nothing to do with religion, I can be Christian British but doesn't make me a patriotic American.....

I can tell you one thing - the Obama administration seems to deem the only good American is a Muslim American, as we now learn they are distributing the Ground Zero Imam's book overseas.

Anrol5 said:

I would turn the question around, "can you be a good American, if you are deeply religious?" I would say "no" Look how many of those with strong beliefs, want to pass laws to make others follow their beliefs.

I thought the USA was built on Freedom.

To me that means allowing others to make decisions I don't approve of, so that I can make my own decisions without interference, even if those decisions are ones others do not approve of. But how many deeply religious Christians believe in allowing others to make decisions that do not conform to their religion? As far as I can tell - none. They pass laws, that only allow decisions they approve of. Any other decision is illegal. IMO, that isn’t freedom.

And it not just freedom they don’t believe, they also believe in disenfranchising people. Millions of people, who pay are pro-choice, and lots of corporations who also support abortion, pay taxes, but deeply religious Christians won’t let any government tax dollars pay for abortions. The small minority of Christians who contribute a part of the federal governments money, decide, how *all* that money is spent.

It doesn’t matter how those who are pro-choice vote, their vote doesn't count. They have been disenfranchised.

So can you be a deeply religious Christian, and pro freedom, and pro-democracy? Well the actions of the relgious right would seem to say "no".

Anrol

Click to expand...

I completely agree with your sentiments, and it is a question that I have begun to ask myself.

More and more of what I read suggests too that the answer may end up being "no".

To me that means allowing others to make decisions I don't approve of, so that I can make my own decisions without interference, even if those decisions are ones others do not approve of.

Click to expand...

That is the most basic freedom, and that is what America was founded upon.

That is what I will fight to preserve, no matter which group it is that wishes to impose their own personal decisions upon me. No religious group will ever succeed in requiring me personally to follow their particular dictates in preference to my own personal beliefs. In fact, that is exactly what my relatives fled from when they came here as part of the founding group.

I will do whatever I can to see that America is free from that brand of persecution, at least for my lifetime. That is part of what my ancestors fought for here and I will not see that effort go to waste in the few generations since that time.

IMHO, what separates we, as American's is fundamental to the foundation of WE, the people. It defines us.

That is, that our rights are NOT granted by a government but rather unalienable and reside within us from the moment of conception. That is, that our rights come from the CREATOR.

IOW, at that very moment of creation when life springs forth WE have the right to LIFE, LIBERTY, and all other unalienable rights. Our Declaration of Independence sought to shift paradigm and bring forth an era when there were no rulers only rule of law with it's founding principal being that power resides with the people.

Once a creator or God is taken out of that basic belief then ANYTHING is possible. Power is no longer that which resides with the people it is a monolithic presence towering above them.

OTOH, if a system exists where a creator or deity is used as a tool to hold power over a people (as in Sharia law) then the same reality exists. A monolithic presence towers over the people.

We have an exceptional system, well conceived AND with roots in a belief that RIGHTS come from God, not power to rule. We have no Kings, no Caliphs, no religion above us but rather within us.

IMHO, our system is exceptional BECAUSE it was inspired by a belief in God.

Mike

Poll cannot be answered properly.

This country was founded on Judeo-Christian moral absolutes which just happen to be universal in every religion. Anyone who either follows those basic moral principles or allows others to follow them without hindrance can be a good American. Anyone who fights against those principles cannot be a good American.

Diss, I'm frankly surprised at you posting this thread. To me at least, it's a troll thread. Why do I say that? Because islam is completely and diametrically opposed to our Western philosophy, and indeed COMMANDS that anyone not a muslim be killed. NO OTHER RELIGION says that. Since that is the objective reality, you already know the answer to your poll. Hence, by asking, you're trolling.

JMHO

I am an "Odinist" and live by the Nine Noble Virtues:

1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honor
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance

I think the above virtues fit right in with the American way of things

http://odinic-rite.org/virtues.html

Rattlehead said:

I am an "Odinist" and live by the Nine Noble Virtues:

1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honor
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance

I think the above virtues fit right in with the American way of things

http://odinic-rite.org/virtues.html

Click to expand...

Exactly. To some, you're a heathen, to me, you're a brother.

I chose other, because I am more concerned with being a follower of Yeshua, and a doer of the teachings/Word. I believe that will make me a good American, as it always has in my past as a United States Marine. So, ask yourself can a practicing Muslime, that takes the Koran literally, as I do the Holy Bible, trully be a good American or even a good person at all. Look at the fruits each produces , and professes, that will tell you what you need to know. Know that good people will be in hell too, as the only doorway is Yeshua as YHWH's son our savior, not as a profit or teacher only. Like it or not.

Dennis Olson said:

Diss, I'm frankly surprised at you posting this thread. To me at least, it's a troll thread. Why do I say that? Because islam is completely and diametrically opposed to our Western philosophy, and indeed COMMANDS that anyone not a muslim be killed. NO OTHER RELIGION says that. Since that is the objective reality, you already know the answer to your poll. Hence, by asking, you're trolling.

Click to expand...

The thread was only indirectly about Islam, insofar as it is included in the "everything else" category. I don't agree with your take on objective reality in this case, as it is clearly true that the majority of Muslims do not engage in killing non-believers. Therefore, there is something wrong with the idea that they all see it as a commandment.

But, this thread is not about Islam specifically. Actually, I am pleasantly surprised by the results. Sometimes we get into these debates and I wonder if there is any point in making the effort. But, if this poll is representative of a reasonable sample of TB2K, it appears people are willing to clearly divide good citizenship from religion.

So, I'm glad I posted it. I learned something.

Now I am ready for more debates.

Depends upon definition of "good American". I think an essential element of America is the idea that "all men are created equal". The "created" part of that certainly stems from ancient beliefs--though not just Judaism. But, the "all men . . . equal" is pure Protestantism. The basic tenet of Protestantism is that each person could approach God directly--s/he did not have to rely on representatives of The Church to take their petitions to God or to tell them what God said. This is why the Protestants published the Bible in the vernacular, and stressed the education of all people so they could read the Bible for themselves. This directly shook the Church hierarchy, and eventually shook the political hierarchy.

The important Protestant political expression is Samuel Rutherford's "Lex Rex"--law is king, as opposed to "Rex lex"--the king is law. Few have even heard of Rutherford, but that concept shook the word.

Democracy and the rule of law were the natural political expression of Protestantism, and as such are the historical foundation of America. The degree to which anyone can be a "good" American depends upon the degree to which they accept that underlying Protestant principle of equality before God and the rule of law.

Sadly (in my mind), few even recognize the principles. Frankly, I fear that most Liberals are not "good" Americans because of their personal and political arrogance (their belief that they are superior to others and thus can make decisions for others) and their willingness to subvert the law for personal and political power.

Thus, I voted "other" because one has to be a protestant (small "p" since it is the moral compass that matters, not whether one is a member of a Protestant denomination or not.

Just my two cents worth.

Thorswoman / Heathen here. As Rattlehead pointed out above, many of the virtues we follow would be very familiar to Christians and/or Jews.

It is also a very "Heathen" value to defend our kin, our community, and our country. I'd say that being a good American blends quite well with that.

While we may not agree on everything, I think most here would find us to be good neighbors and friends.

Kind of sad that you had to ask the question, and sadder that some thought Muslim or other couldn't be good Americans ...... BUT, it's true that a strongly adherent Muslim, (who might be called a GOOD Muslim not for being good, but for really knowing his religion and practicing it fully) can't really be a good American citizen on some big issues. Fortunately the number of "good" Muslims is probably about the same as the number of "good" Christians, probably less than 2% of the total.

Both sides would consider the Bible to be above the Constitution, and thus would work to overthrow the rule of the Constitution, or make it secondary to their interpretation of their scriptures.

Jihad IS a particular danger that isn't found in Christianity. It's an obligation for Muslims, an actual commandment, not a suggestion. Furthermore while it can be interpreted as non-violent struggle, that's not the only or original interpretation - the Sunnah makes clear that Muhammed engaged in warfare, sometimes aggressively against people he had previously made a peace treaty with, and once even ordered an assassination of someone who had decided to leave the religion.

These are real problems with that tiny minority who are actually serious about their religion. It would be hard to reconcile those things with Constitutional values. The other Muslims like doing their traditional cultural things, but in my experience many of them don't really believe in it.

The one thing that has bound this country into a great nation is a single language. The story of the tower of Bable was put in the in Bible for a reason.

I voted that any all religions or no religion at all is ok, but I draw the line at any religion that wants to force me to join them. They are crossing the line and do not make good Americans since they do not respect the basic right of America's "freedom of religion".

The thing which constitutes an American is our constitution.
It was based on both the values of Judeo-Christian law and the ideas of the agnostic "enlightment". It is secular.

It guarantees the freedom to believe as we individually choose.

Certain groups do NOT respect others freedom and wish to force their beliefs by threat of death.

Christianity does NOT teach this and actually is not of this world
To be friends with this world is enmity with God.

.....

how absurd a question. The Jewish population of the United States is somewhere around 2% according to this site:


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Total *6,452,030 296,410,404 2.2




and being a patriotic American is being defined by less than 3% of a group, many of whom undoubtedly owe an allegiance to a foreign power more than the Country to which they were born?


Oh look, there is a group of less than 3% of the United States population, let's go ask THEM what it means to be a patriotic American.


Maybe a better statistic would be to find out what proportion of liberals, leftists, marxists, socialists and communists in the United States are made up of Jewish adherants.

dragonslayer2001 said:

Maybe a better statistic would be to find out what proportion of liberals, leftists, marxists, socialists and communists in the United States are made up of Jewish adherants.

Click to expand...

Very good point, ds2001. I bet a lot of people here would be surprised

Both sides would consider the Bible to be above the Constitution, and thus would work to overthrow the rule of the Constitution, or make it secondary to their interpretation of their scriptures.

Click to expand...

I've been a Christian for about 45 years, and I can't remember ever hearing anyone indicate that they would work to overthrow the Constitution. You are trying very hard to make Islam and Christianity equivalents. I don't think you can make that work.

regards,

Garryowen

Garryowen said:

I've been a Christian for about 45 years, and I can't remember ever hearing anyone indicate that they would work to overthrow the Constitution. You are trying very hard to make Islam and Christianity equivalents. I don't think you can make that work.

regards,

Garryowen

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that fear was the basis of all the anxiety over JFK's running for Pres. Everyone thought he would be run by the Pope. Romney has the same kinds of issues being Mormon.

Catholics were never popular in the early days of America; Mormons left the US.

I AM A WITCH, and I dare anyone to tell me I'm a bad American because of it.

Rattlehead said:

I am an "Odinist" and live by the Nine Noble Virtues:

1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honor
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance

I think the above virtues fit right in with the American way of things

http://odinic-rite.org/virtues.html

Click to expand...

That is very much like the Celtic beliefs...

NC Susan said:

you can not define American by race, sex, religion or ethnic heritage. That was the greatness of America.

We did not have problems with the Melting Pot Assimilated American citizens.
We have a crisis with the Salad Bowl Diversity American citizens.

To be at peace you have to belong to the same tribe or live in the same herd ..... (no offense to anyone)

Click to expand...

I had a long think about this one. When you get a group of people together, who have been raised together, work together, socialise together, etc., you can get something called "group think"

What is Groupthink? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Groupthink is a type of thought within a deeply cohesive in-group whose members try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.....
.....
Individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent thinking are lost in the pursuit of group cohesiveness, as are the advantages of reasonable balance in choice and thought that might normally be obtained by making decisions as a group. During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking.

Click to expand...

http://www.bola.biz/communications/groupthink.html

When we work together in groups we sometimes suffer illusions of righteousness and invincibility. Irving Janis in his book "Victims of Group-Think" described his observations of a phenomena of group leadership and member interaction characterised by inward-looking, self-regulating and stereotypical behaviours that lead to distorted decision-making. Janis defines GROUPTHINK as
"a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action."

Click to expand...

The American car industry was severely damaged by "group think". Everyone lived, worked played, and focussed on Detroit. They all drove American cars. The boards of American car makers were filled with "car people just like us". And when the 1970's oil crisis hit, the American car manufacturers failed to respond to the crisis, and consequently lost out to the Japanese.

When I did my Masters in business studies, one of the things they suggested, is that company directors, make sure there are people on the board, who though they have a thorough grounding in business, are people who haven’t worked with the company before. People who may not actually have ever worked in that field. This way of doing things bring a fresh pair of eyes to any problem. Group think is a myopic way of looking at things. It focuses on one small area of the world, when in fact there is an entire universe out there. And that fresh pair of eyes is looking beyond the immediate business, at the rest of the world.

So although it very comfortable to be among people who are just like me. I certainly like it. It is likely to make for a narrow range of opinions. For businesses, for organisations of every size, it is likely to result in that organisation making bad decisions. Not always, but more often than not. They are only thinking about people just like them, when in fact there are far more people who are not like them. And businesses go bust, as a result.

I think the salad bowl diversity, is much better, and that, IMO, in the past, has been one of the USA's strengths.

Sorry I am going off topic now, but so many have raised the subject of deeply religious Muslims killing people.

Dennis Olson said:

Diss, I'm frankly surprised at you posting this thread. To me at least, it's a troll thread. Why do I say that? Because islam is completely and diametrically opposed to our Western philosophy, and indeed COMMANDS that anyone not a muslim be killed. NO OTHER RELIGION says that. Since that is the objective reality, you already know the answer to your poll. Hence, by asking, you're trolling. JMHO

Click to expand...

homepark said:

Meanwhile, Islamic radicals vow to kill non-believers, and they do.

Click to expand...

conundrum said:

The thing which constitutes an American is our constitution. It was based on both the values of Judeo-Christian law and the ideas of the agnostic "enlightment". It is secular.

It guarantees the freedom to believe as we individually choose.

Certain groups do NOT respect others freedom and wish to force their beliefs by threat of death.

Christianity does NOT teach this and actually is not of this world
To be friends with this world is enmity with God.

Click to expand...

There have been a number of comments about Muslims killing others in the name of religion. Muslim bombers have very deep beliefs, and those beliefs may result in them killing people. They do it with violence - suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings, whatever.

Adino said:

You cannot have 2 people that have dichotomous moral and ethical views peacefully coexist. If someone's idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is wrapped up in depriving you of yours there can be no respectful and orderly relationship. Until the one that desires deprivation of the others is victorious. That's not coexistence though now is it? .

Click to expand...

Deeply religious Christians?

Christians with very deeply held religious beliefs pass laws, that kill others. They kill women and children; and leave men so severely disabled, those men need 24/7 care. And they give those men, women and children no choice, about whether they live or die. They force death, on others, who may not hold their beliefs.

If you don’t understand what I am talking about, then, IMO, you have not looked beyond abortion, at the rest of the laws that exist, and seen the devastation that results from "Christian" laws - the kind I subjected to in the UK, and Americans who live in bible belt states are subjected to, too.

So what is the difference between a Moslem bomber who kills people for their faith, and a deeply religious Christian who kills people for their faith. What is the difference between killing 3000 infidels (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) in one go, and destroying the lives of 3000 heathens (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) one woman, one child, one man at a time? Oh the methodology, one uses bombs, and one uses laws. And it takes a bit longer, but believers still kill unbelievers for their beliefs.

I think grownups (men and women), should be left alone to make their own decisions, even if you or I don't like the decisions those adults make!

Anrol

Anrol5 said:

I had a long think about this one. When you get a group of people together, who have been raised together, work together, socialise together, etc., you can get something called "group think"

What is Groupthink? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink



http://www.bola.biz/communications/groupthink.html


The American car industry was severely damaged by "group think". Everyone lived, worked played, and focussed on Detroit. They all drove American cars. The boards of American car makers were filled with "car people just like us". And when the 1970's oil crisis hit, the American car manufacturers failed to respond to the crisis, and consequently lost out to the Japanese.

When I did my Masters in business studies, one of the things they suggested, is that company directors, make sure there are people on the board, who though they have a thorough grounding in business, are people who haven’t worked with the company before. People who may not actually have ever worked in that field. This way of doing things bring a fresh pair of eyes to any problem. Group think is a myopic way of looking at things. It focuses on one small area of the world, when in fact there is an entire universe out there. And that fresh pair of eyes is looking beyond the immediate business, at the rest of the world.

So although it very comfortable to be among people who are just like me. I certainly like it. It is likely to make for a narrow range of opinions. For businesses, for organisations of every size, it is likely to result in that organisation making bad decisions. Not always, but more often than not. They are only thinking about people just like them, when in fact there are far more people who are not like them. And businesses go bust, as a result.

I think the salad bowl diversity, is much better, and that, IMO, in the past, has been one of the USA's strengths.

Sorry I am going off topic now, but so many have raised the subject of deeply religious Muslims killing people.








There have been a number of comments about Muslims killing others in the name of religion. Muslim bombers have very deep beliefs, and those beliefs may result in them killing people. They do it with violence - suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings, whatever.



Deeply religious Christians?

Christians with very deeply held religious beliefs pass laws, that kill others. They kill women and children; and leave men so severely disabled, those men need 24/7 care. And they give those men, women and children no choice, about whether they live or die. They force death, on others, who may not hold their beliefs.

If you don’t understand what I am talking about, then, IMO, you have not looked beyond abortion, at the rest of the laws that exist, and seen the devastation that results from "Christian" laws - the kind I subjected to in the UK, and Americans who live in bible belt states are subjected to, too.

So what is the difference between a Moslem bomber who kills people for their faith, and a deeply religious Christian who kills people for their faith. What is the difference between killing 3000 infidels (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) in one go, and destroying the lives of 3000 heathens (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) one woman, one child, one man at a time? Oh the methodology, one uses bombs, and one uses laws. And it takes a bit longer, but believers still kill unbelievers for their beliefs.

I think grownups (men and women), should be left alone to make their own decisions, even if you or I don't like the decisions those adults make!

Anrol

Click to expand...

What is Groupthink? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

http://www.bola.biz/communications/groupthink.html


Interesting perspective Anrol ~ blessings T

Sligo said:

Anrol, very well said. Some of us that don't go to brick and mortars have PERSONAL very high moral standards, which we do not push on other people. I truly believe that there are many paths to God, and for me to judge any of them is just wrong. I don't know what happened thousands of years ago, or which path is "the right one", but I do know that if I walk the one that lets me sleep well at night, and follow "The Golden Rule" that is universal among ALL religions, I'll do okay. No one group has the right to dictate how another lives. And our government has no business in "Faith-based" anything.

Click to expand...

Sligo: to you as well

Rattlehead said:

I am an "Odinist" and live by the Nine Noble Virtues:

1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honor
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance

I think the above virtues fit right in with the American way of things

http://odinic-rite.org/virtues.html

Click to expand...

Wonderful!!!

To be a good American? Treat our soldiers well, shake their hands and say "thank you," when you see them.

To be a good American is to let the 1st amendment flourish, as it is floundering right now. Everyone, *everyone* has a right to voice their opinion. I have just as much right not to listen.

To be a good American is to treat others with respect and dignity. To help others when they need it, even if it's only a kind word or a smile.

This is our land. Let Freedom Ring! Everyone's Freedom...

jmo,
M~~

Anrol5 said:

I had a long think about this one. When you get a group of people together, who have been raised together, work together, socialise together, etc., you can get something called "group think"

What is Groupthink? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink



http://www.bola.biz/communications/groupthink.html


The American car industry was severely damaged by "group think". Everyone lived, worked played, and focussed on Detroit. They all drove American cars. The boards of American car makers were filled with "car people just like us". And when the 1970's oil crisis hit, the American car manufacturers failed to respond to the crisis, and consequently lost out to the Japanese.

When I did my Masters in business studies, one of the things they suggested, is that company directors, make sure there are people on the board, who though they have a thorough grounding in business, are people who haven’t worked with the company before. People who may not actually have ever worked in that field. This way of doing things bring a fresh pair of eyes to any problem. Group think is a myopic way of looking at things. It focuses on one small area of the world, when in fact there is an entire universe out there. And that fresh pair of eyes is looking beyond the immediate business, at the rest of the world.

So although it very comfortable to be among people who are just like me. I certainly like it. It is likely to make for a narrow range of opinions. For businesses, for organisations of every size, it is likely to result in that organisation making bad decisions. Not always, but more often than not. They are only thinking about people just like them, when in fact there are far more people who are not like them. And businesses go bust, as a result.

I think the salad bowl diversity, is much better, and that, IMO, in the past, has been one of the USA's strengths.

Sorry I am going off topic now, but so many have raised the subject of deeply religious Muslims killing people.








There have been a number of comments about Muslims killing others in the name of religion. Muslim bombers have very deep beliefs, and those beliefs may result in them killing people. They do it with violence - suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings, whatever.



Deeply religious Christians?

Christians with very deeply held religious beliefs pass laws, that kill others. They kill women and children; and leave men so severely disabled, those men need 24/7 care. And they give those men, women and children no choice, about whether they live or die. They force death, on others, who may not hold their beliefs.

If you don’t understand what I am talking about, then, IMO, you have not looked beyond abortion, at the rest of the laws that exist, and seen the devastation that results from "Christian" laws - the kind I subjected to in the UK, and Americans who live in bible belt states are subjected to, too.

So what is the difference between a Moslem bomber who kills people for their faith, and a deeply religious Christian who kills people for their faith. What is the difference between killing 3000 infidels (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) in one go, and destroying the lives of 3000 heathens (people who do not have the same beliefs as you) one woman, one child, one man at a time? Oh the methodology, one uses bombs, and one uses laws. And it takes a bit longer, but believers still kill unbelievers for their beliefs.

I think grownups (men and women), should be left alone to make their own decisions, even if you or I don't like the decisions those adults make!

Anrol

Click to expand...

Anrol,

Islam however holds as a primary tenet that this world is Allah's and to take it by the sword if need be, to conquer. That is contrary to our American constitution. So a Muslim would have to choose between the true teachings of their faith and our constitution.

Christians do not have a problem with the constitution as our book says that this world is not ours. We are to already do what is in the constitution.

There is no such thing as a Christian who "kills for their faith". If they say this they actually go against the true teachings of Jesus Christ. I would also add Buddhists to the list that believe this way. There are groups who kill and use any belief handy to defend their actions, Christians included.

As I said if you are willing to respect and be subject to our constitution then you can be a good American. No religion is involved.

I agree, Conundrum, beautifully and succinctly stated.

conundrum said:

Anrol,

Islam however holds as a primary tenet that this world is Allah's and to take it by the sword if need be, to conquer. That is contrary to our American constitution. So a Muslim would have to choose between the true teachings of their faith and our constitution.

Christians do not have a problem with the constitution as our book says that this world is not ours. We are to already do what is in the constitution.

There is no such thing as a Christian who "kills for their faith". If they say this they actually go against the true teachings of Jesus Christ. I would also add Buddhists to the list that believe this way. There are groups who kill and use any belief handy to defend their actions, Christians included.

As I said if you are willing to respect and be subject to our constitution then you can be a good American. No religion is involved.

Click to expand...

Anrol's post is significant- is the US a Christian Nation or not? Are we infidels killing 1000's in the ME or are we killing them as Christians?

Sligo said:

I do know that if I walk the one that lets me sleep well at night, and follow "The Golden Rule" that is universal among ALL religions, I'll do okay.

Click to expand...

Sorry to tell you, but the Islamic faith does not preach the Golden Rule, or follow it either.

Both sides would consider the Bible to be above the Constitution, and thus would work to overthrow the rule of the Constitution, or make it secondary to their interpretation of their scriptures.

Click to expand...

Garryowen said:

I've been a Christian for about 45 years, and I can't remember ever hearing anyone indicate that they would work to overthrow the Constitution. You are trying very hard to make Islam and Christianity equivalents. I don't think you can make that work.

regards,

Garryowen

Click to expand...

Right, and a true Christian could not even try to overthrow the Constitution.

The traditional American philosophy teaches that Man, The Individual, is endowed at birth with rights which are unalienable because they were given by his Creator.

This governmental philosophy is uniquely American. The concept of Man's rights being unalienable is based solely upon the belief in their Divine origin. Lacking this belief, there is no moral basis for any claim that they are unalienable or for any claim to the great benefits flowing from this concept. God-given rights are sometimes called Natural Rights--those possessed by Man under the Laws of Nature, meaning under the laws of God's creation and therefore by gift of God. Man has no power to alienate--to dispose of, by surrender, barter or gift--his God-given rights, according to the American philosophy. This is the meaning of "unalienable."

One underlying consideration is that for every such right there is a correlative, inseparable duty--for every aspect of freedom there is a corresponding responsibility; so that it is always Right-Duty and Freedom-Responsibility, or Liberty-Responsibility. There is a duty, or responsibility, to God as the giver of these unalienable rights: a moral duty--to keep secure and use soundly these gifts, with due respect for the equal rights of others and for the right of Posterity to their just heritage of liberty. Since this moral duty cannot be surrendered, bartered, given away, abandoned, delegated or otherwise alienated, so is the inseparable right likewise unalienable. This concept of rights being unalienable is thus dependent upon belief in God as the giver. This indicates the basis and the soundness of Jefferson's statement (1796 letter to John Adams): "If ever the morals of a people could be made the basis of their own government it is our case . . ."

For the security and enjoyment by Man of his Divinely created rights, it follows implicitly that Man is endowed by his Creator not only with the right to be self-governing but also with the capacity to reason and, therefore, with the capacity to be self-governing. This is implicit in the philosophy proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. Otherwise, Man's unalienable rights would be of little or no use or benefit to him. Faith in Man--in his capacity to be self-governing--is thus related to faith in God as his Creator, as the giver of these unalienable rights and this capacity.

These rights are preexisting and given by GOD. (and not the god of islam)


RIGHTS UNALIENABLE---BECAUSE GOD-GIVEN

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?

Thomas Jefferson ("Notes on the State of Virginia," 1782)

The Sacred Rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.

Alexander Hamilton (An essay, "The Farmer Refuted," 1775) (Note: entire passage in capital letters in the original.)

UNALIENABLE RIGHTS

Resolved, that the inhabitants of this Province are unalienably entitled to those essential rights ["founded in the law of God and of Nature"] in common with all men: and that no law of society can, consistent with the law of God and nature, divest them of those rights.

Resolutions of House of Representatives, Mass., 1765

In short it is the greatest absurdity to suppose it in the power of one or any number of men at the entering into society, to renounce their essential natural rights, or the means of preserving those rights when the great end of civil government from the very nature of its institution is for the support, protection and defence of those very rights: the principal of which as is before observed, are life liberty and property. If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave--- (Emphasis per original.)

Resolutions of Town of Boston, 1772 ("The Rights of The Colonists, . . . ")

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/yardstick/pr3_quotes.html

Kent said:

Sorry to tell you, but the Islamic faith does not preach the Golden Rule, or follow it either.

Click to expand...

Mohammed said:

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. (source)

Click to expand...

Fred, I am surprised you would post that quote.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds.

The Golden rule applies to everyone, mohammed's quote applies only to fellow muslims. You made my point clear.

Ender said:

Anrol's post is significant- is the US a Christian Nation or not? Are we infidels killing 1000's in the ME or are we killing them as Christians?

Click to expand...

Ender, Your question is set in the present so that is how I will answer it-

No, of course we are not a Christian nation teachings of Jesus, that is glaringly obvious. The Bible predicts in Revelations 17, a harlot on a beast with another beast who is a fake lamb...


Islam defines all who are not Islam as infidels, as "the house of war" until they come under submission.

And we definitely not in the ME over anything to do with Christians.

The US is not the bad guy, ALL of the superpowers play monopoly with the world and it's resources. That is why wars are fought. And no that is not Christian, it is the world.

True Christianity, Buddhism and Sikhs are the only religions and groups
I know of that teach to treat ALL people well, including non-believers.
All others teach treat your own as special and you can do anything you can get away with to the others.