TRANS Yuppie Shock Horror Report! - Toyota Now Recalling the Vaunted Prius?

Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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Can any body spell Approaching Train Wreck? RB
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Toyota to recall about 270,000 Prius cars in Japan, U.S. to fix brake problem - Nikkei via Reuters 34 minutes ago from BreakingNews Headquarters
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Transportation Department Investigating Prius Brake Failure
Thursday, February 04, 2010
By Ken Thomas, Associated Press

Washington (AP) - The Transportation Department opened an investigation Thursday into brake problems in the 2010 Prius, the latest in a series of safety troubles at Toyota that have confused drivers and strained the Japanese automaker's relationship with U.S. regulators.

Toyota earlier Thursday acknowledged design problems with the brakes in its prized gas-electric hybrid, but said it was still deciding how to inform customers and whether a recall is needed.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Transportation Department's safety agency, said it has received 124 reports from consumers about the Prius brakes, including four reports of crashes. The investigation will look into allegations of momentary loss of braking capability while traveling over uneven road surfaces, potholes or bumps.

The U.S. investigation, while preliminary, represents another setback for Toyota, which has been battered with two major recalls in the United States covering millions of vehicles. Those involve gas pedals that can get trapped under floor mats or become stuck on their own and fail to return to the idle position. The safety probes have challenged Toyota's long-standing reputation for building safe, quality vehicles.

The Prius is not part of the gas pedal recalls.

NHTSA said investigators have talked to consumers and conducted pre-investigatory field work. The preliminary evaluation involves about 37,000 vehicles in the United States.

"Safety is our top priority," said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. NHTSA said LaHood spoke with Toyota president Akio Toyoda late Wednesday and was assured by the executive that Toyota was taking the safety concerns seriously.

Toyota said in a statement it would fully cooperate with NHTSA's investigation.

The U.S. investigation came after the Japanese government ordered Toyota to investigate brake problems in the Prius, the world's best-selling hybrid. Toyota said it had already corrected problems with the antilock brake system in Prius models sold since late last month, including those shipped overseas.

The new version of the gas-electric Prius hybrid went on sale in the U.S. and Japan in May 2009.

Paul Nolasco, a company spokesman in Japan, said the time lag for brakes kicking in felt by drivers stem from the two systems in a gas-electric hybrid - the gas-engine and the electric motor.

When the car moves on a bumpy or slippery surface, a driver can feel a pause in the braking when the vehicle switches between the traditional hydraulic brakes and the electronically operated braking system, he said. The brakes work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal, he said.

NHTSA said it opens 100 investigations every year and there are currently 40 open defect investigations, three of which involve Toyota. NHTSA said its defect and compliance investigations have resulted in 524 recalls involving 23.5 million vehicles during the past three years.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/60987
 
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Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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What da?

Today, February 04, 2010, 2 hours ago
BreakingNews: Update: NBC News says report of Prius recall can't be confirmed; Toyota doesn't mention a recall in latest statment.

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Barely News Online had the original report but now it appears they ran with a rumor and didn't get confirmation.

Let's see where it goes ... RB
 
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F

FarmerJohn

Has No Life - Lives on TB
If that power comes comes from hydro, wind, tidal or nuclear then it is clean power. If it's from coal then at least your energy dollars are not going to finance AQ; that's also clean power unless you're a subscriber to the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis.

I wonder what Toyota changed between '09 and '10? The Prius is actually kind of a hot car in the classic sense of the word in the huge amount or torque that they offer; 395 ft./lbs. in a very flat curve. That's about twice what you might expect to see in even a very good "economy car" of that size.

FJ
 
Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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I really think Toyota has put off a bunch of small but manageable problems until it has now become one big problem.

Rumors are still flying about a Prius recall. It's the Crown Jewel of Toyota's marketing and another case of Toyota not wanting to pull the trigger.

Toyota proudly claimed they fixed the Prius brakes "last month" (actually only about a week ago. What they never mentioned is that the new 2010 model has been made since May 2009.

They never bothered to apply the "fix" to the cars they already shipped!

They only fixed cars made the last couple of weeks and managed to ignore those made before that. An amazing oversight.

Toyota really has a corporate culture issue and seems unwilling to be frank and honest about the situation.

They have lost control of the communications battle and are going to pay for it.
 
Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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It's Official!

Toyota Recalls 437,000 Prius, Hybrids Globally

Tuesday, February 09, 2010
service_ap_36.gif


TOKYO — Toyota says it is recalling about 437,000 Prius and other hybrid vehicles worldwide to fix brake problems — the latest in a string of embarrassing safety lapses at the world's largest automaker.

"I don't see Toyota as an infallible company that never makes mistakes," President Akio Toyoda said at a press conference Tuesday in Tokyo. "We will face up to the facts and correct the problem, putting customers' safety and convenience first."

With the Prius announcement, the number of vehicles recalled globally by Toyota Motor Corp. has ballooned to 8.5 million, including for floor mats which can trap gas pedals and faulty gas pedals that are slow to return to the idle position. The 2010 Prius wasn't part of the earlier recalls.

There have been about 200 complaints in Japan and the U.S. about a delay when the brakes in the Prius were pressed in cold conditions and on some bumpy roads. The delay doesn't indicate a brake failure. The company says the problem can be fixed in 40 minutes with new software that oversees the controls of the antilock brakes.

"Let me assure everyone that we will redouble our commitment to quality as the lifeline of our company," Toyoda said.

Toyota officials went to Japan's Transport Ministry earlier Tuesday to formally notify officials the company is recalling the 2010 Prius gas-electric hybrid — the world's top-selling hybrid car. The automaker is also recalling two other hybrid models in Japan, the Lexus HS250h sedan, sold in the U.S. and Japan, and the Sai, which is sold only in Japan.

The 223,000 cars being recalled in Japan include nearly 200,000 Priuses sold from April last year through Monday, according to papers the automaker filed with the ministry. The Prius is Japan's top-selling car.

In the U.S., Toyota will recall 133,000 Prius cars and 14,500 Lexus HS250h vehicles. Nearly 53,000 Priuses are also being recalled in Europe. Toyota is suspending production of the Sai and Lexus HS250h in Japan until the updated software for those models is ready.

If drivers experience a delayed reaction when depressing the brakes in any of these models, they should keep pressing, according to Toyota and the transport ministry.

The Prius repairs will start in Japan on Wednesday. U.S. owners will start receiving letters about the recall next week.

Toyoda, the president, has been criticized for being largely invisible during the two weeks after the company announced Jan. 21 the gas pedal recall in the U.S., Europe and China.

He apologized at his first public press conference last Friday, but was criticized by the Japanese media for failing to outline concrete steps to tackle the safety crisis and reassure customers around the world.

In contrast to his halting English in response to questions from foreign reporters at last week's news conference, Toyoda seemed much better prepared Tuesday, reading from an English statement after doing so in Japanese.

"We will do everything in our power to regain the confidence of our customers," Toyoda said.

He said he planned to go to the U.S. soon to talk with American workers and dealers to bring the ranks together.

Analysts said fears of an even bigger consumer backlash prodded Toyota into recalling the Prius.

"If they hadn't done the recalls, their image would have suffered even more," said Ryoichi Saito, auto analyst at Mizuho Investors Securities in Tokyo.

The Japanese transport ministry rapped Toyota as reacting too slowly, and said he was meeting U.S. Ambassador to Japan John Roos Wednesday to exchange views about Toyota's recalls and make sure U.S.-Japan relations remained on good terms.

"The consideration for customers was lacking in Toyota," Seiji Maehara told reporters, after a meeting with Toyoda. "We hope this never happens again."

Toyoda, who visited the minister after his news conference, apologized and explained the recalls, Maehara said.

U.S. safety officials have launched an investigation into problems with the brakes.

The problem is suspected in four crashes resulting in two minor injuries, according to data gathered by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is investigating the matter. Toyota says it's cooperating with NHTSA's investigation.

Problems with hybrid braking systems haven't been limited to Toyota.

Ford Motor Co. said last week it plans to fix 17,600 Mercury Milan and Ford Fusion gas-electric hybrids because of a software problem that can give drivers the impression that the brakes have failed. The automaker says the problem occurs in transition between two braking systems and at no time are drivers without brakes.

Toyota's plug-in hybrid is also being recalled in Japan, Europe and the U.S., but in small numbers because it is a largely experimental model for rental and government use.

The Prius holds a cherished spot in Toyota's vehicle lineup and is symbolic of its leadership in the "green" car market.

The Toyota executive overseeing quality Shinichi Sasaki said the delay that Prius drivers can feel when braking lasts for a fraction of a second as the antilock brakes kick in.

The problem happens only on snowy or bumpy surfaces, and the complaints did not become more numerous until recently when the weather got colder, Sasaki said.

But Toyoda acknowledged the company could have done better in picking up on the complaints, managing the crisis and sending a message to car owners on a fix.

In the U.S., Toyota will add five more centers in addition to the current three that investigate customer complaints, Sasaki said.

"When compared to the size of Japan, America is so much bigger and so our network for gathering information was not enough," he said.

Toyota was one of the first companies to mass-market a hybrid that combines an electric motor with a gas engine, introducing the Prius in Japan in 1997. Its high gas mileage made it popular among environmentally conscious drivers, especially when gas prices spiked two years ago.

But the complexity of the Prius, a highly computerized car, has led to problems in the past. In 2005, the company repaired 75,000 of them to fix software glitches that caused the engine to stall. It has also had trouble with headlights going out.

Shares in Toyota rose 2.9 percent Tuesday to 3,375 yen, but are still down about 20 percent since Jan. 21, when it announced the gas pedal recall.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,585163,00.html
 
PCViking

PCViking

Lutefisk Survivor
The problem is in the software... Toyota uses a 'drive by wire' system. Probably the stupidest innovation ever put on vehicles!

:vik:
 
L

LtPiper

Taking cover
FarmerJohn said:
I wonder what Toyota changed between '09 and '10? The Prius is actually kind of a hot car in the classic sense of the word in the huge amount or torque that they offer; 395 ft./lbs. in a very flat curve. That's about twice what you might expect to see in even a very good "economy car" of that size.

FJ
Click to expand...

They redesigned the power train. The Prius with the brake issue is Prius 3.0. I have a early Prius 2.0 and love it! Yes they are a power house in the torque department.
 
O

OddOne

< Yes, I do look like that.
PCViking said:
The problem is in the software... Toyota uses a 'drive by wire' system. Probably the stupidest innovation ever put on vehicles!
Click to expand...

No, drive by wire's not a stupid innovation, but it does require due diligence.

Specifically, it's important to write the firmware operating the drive-by-wire system (and this applies to any safety-critical system) so that it will never have a questionable or unexpected state if something goes wrong. All errors must be intercepted and handled, and any unexpected problem has to result in a graceful and safe failure. Overrides must also be planned for and handled in a way that maximizes the safety factor.

Where I suspect the runaway acceleration is coming from is firmware that is not coded to handle errors gracefully and/or lacks a safe override method. For example, if both brake and accelerator are depressed simultaneously, the safe override approach is to let the brake override the accelerator - or better, ignore the accelerator and throttle down the engine regardless - and make the car slow down. It looks to me based on reports that crashed vehicles had burned-out brakes that the DBW system's not set up to allow the brake to override the engine speed. Also, it sure looks to me like the DBW system's firmware is entering an unknown and unplanned-for state wherein the car accelerates without being commanded to do so by the driver, and this is something for which there should be checks.
 
ShyGirl

ShyGirl

Veteran Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCViking
The problem is in the software... Toyota uses a 'drive by wire' system. Probably the stupidest innovation ever put on vehicles!

No, drive by wire's not a stupid innovation, but it does require due diligence.

Specifically, it's important to write the firmware operating the drive-by-wire system (and this applies to any safety-critical system) so that it will never have a questionable or unexpected state if something goes wrong. All errors must be intercepted and handled, and any unexpected problem has to result in a graceful and safe failure. Overrides must also be planned for and handled in a way that maximizes the safety factor.
Where I suspect the runaway acceleration is coming from is firmware that is not coded to handle errors gracefully and/or lacks a safe override method. For example, if both brake and accelerator are depressed simultaneously, the safe override approach is to let the brake override the accelerator - or better, ignore the accelerator and throttle down the engine regardless - and make the car slow down. It looks to me based on reports that crashed vehicles had burned-out brakes that the DBW system's not set up to allow the brake to override the engine speed. Also, it sure looks to me like the DBW system's firmware is entering an unknown and unplanned-for state wherein the car accelerates without being commanded to do so by the driver, and this is something for which there should be checks.
Click to expand...

It is impossible to test software for all possible events in all possible sequences of occurrence. By definition, an unexpected state or problem was just that -- UNEXPECTED. If you expected it to happen you could plan for it and prevent it or code the error handling to gracefully provide a safe override approach. The code already contains many such safe overrides for the expected, likely or unlikely but possible scenarios that the software engineer could think of. It is the unanticipated scenario that will always pop up and bite you in the ass. When mechanical systems start to fail you usually have some warning and can limp along a short time with failing parts. When software fails in an unexpected way all bets are off.
 
ShyGirl

ShyGirl

Veteran Member
It may be on the Prius that the breaking problem is just a driver perception problem. In a software controlled system part of the task is controlling the function such as the breaks. The other part of the task is providing feedback to the operator/driver that the breaks are working. In the case of an auto, people expect breaks to "feel" a certain way and when it "feels" like they don't have control it is scary. I know the first time I drove an ABS breaking system on ice I freaked. I wanted to control a slide the way I had always controlled it by pumping the breaks lightly. I had to get used to the system doing it for me instead, but it still felt wrong. I guess I just don't trust cars driving themselves and yes I'd rather drive an old standard shift car with real breaks and steering.
 
Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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FWIW my 2000 Avalon has the same wierd ABS glitch when going over railroad tracks. Primitive ABS logic IMHO. Add the regenerative braking in the Prius and now you will have some real fun.

As far as the unintended acceleration, Toyota doesn't have "brake to idle" logic that almost all the other manufacturers have.

The ECU's and the programming are going to be the next shoe to drop.
 
O

OddOne

< Yes, I do look like that.
ShyGirl said:
It is impossible to test software for all possible events in all possible sequences of occurrence. By definition, an unexpected state or problem was just that -- UNEXPECTED. If you expected it to happen you could plan for it and prevent it or code the error handling to gracefully provide a safe override approach. The code already contains many such safe overrides for the expected, likely or unlikely but possible scenarios that the software engineer could think of. It is the unanticipated scenario that will always pop up and bite you in the ass. When mechanical systems start to fail you usually have some warning and can limp along a short time with failing parts. When software fails in an unexpected way all bets are off.
Click to expand...

I agree that it is impossible to test for every possible and impossible scenario. However, when it comes to any microprocessor controlled safety system, firmware should never be able to enter an unexpected state. It should be possible to always predict the state of an embedded system at all times of operation regardless of what's going on. There should always be a failsafe, default state, etc. If there's ever a situation where the firmware enters an unexpected state you're missing some error checking.

Yes, perfect embedded code is possible. It just requires better planning.
 
Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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What he said.

Ya know after the last couple of months I'm liking my Toyota less and less. All these recalls are not giving me a warm fuzzy feeling for Toyota.

I got my Toyota from my late FIL's estate. A nice 2000 Solara coupe in perfect shape. What's not to like?

The Toyota 3.0 V6 sucks gas and is rather weak. Obviously detuned so you have to buy the Lexus to get real performance. Our old 2001 3.0 V6 Mitsubishi Galant was -very- quick and had better milage.

Goofy brakes on the Solara. Took it to the local Toyota dealer and they said it was "just the way Toyota's are". Different linkage, "soft" pedal feel built in at the factory, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then on the first cold day the brake warning light came on. WTH? Checked the brake fluid level and it was low. Dufus dealer didn't catch that. Despite the previous "full" inspection.

Five months later I ask another Toyota dealer to check the crappy brakes. He says they are worn out at 55,000 miles. I tell him the other dealer said they were "perfect" five months ago. He takes me in the shop and shows me the brakes. Yup, worn out. Full brake job costs over $650.00 with front rotors replaced. The most I ever paid for a brake job ever.

The brake thing doesn't stop.

Get this. The 2000 Solara has poor ABS logic like the new Prius recall. Apply the brakes over bumpy -and- slippery surfaces and the ABS goes, huh?, for almost a second. Dealer said it must be a fluke.

I managed to put a cigarette burn in the drivers sun visor while hitting a bump. Two Toyota dealers quoted $200 - $220 just for the part. What a ripoff.

Two relays for the heater fan blew out. The damn thing has four relays. One for each fan speed. $180 dollars for that fix.

I've come to the realization that the vaunted Toyota brand is no better than alot of cars on the road after ten years in service. The repair costs are higher than other cars and the "reliability" is only just average IMHO. The electrical complexity seems unreasonably high.

I am very suspicious of the whole dealer network. Poor diagnostics and extravegant part costs. It will cost you once they age.

No wonder they have problems now.
 
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Olypengal

Olypengal

Inactive
Well, I still love my '03 Prius with 130k miles on it now. Still original brakes and hybrid battery. Maybe they made those in the first couple of years better? The lure of a new car can't compete with one that runs perfect and is paid for. I hope Toyota gets it's act together soon!
 
Red Baron

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
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Olypengal said:
Well, I still love my '03 Prius with 130k miles on it now. Still original brakes and hybrid battery. Maybe they made those in the first couple of years better? The lure of a new car can't compete with one that runs perfect and is paid for. I hope Toyota gets it's act together soon!
Click to expand...

The Prius is made in Japan. A superior build in my humble opinion.

We also have a 2009 Mitubishi Outlander that is made in Japan. A great vehicle with zero problems over the first year. Knock on wood. This is our third Mitubishi lease in nine years and they have been superlative.

I worry that the US assembly plants still don't quite "get it".

Especially the management.
 
T

Troke

Deceased
WSJ has a recent article on Toyota corp mngt and this 'crisis', which it turns out has been around a long time. They had plenty of forewarning but ignored it.

So now they go into the tank. When you figure their used rigs are 'dangerous' too, they are in bad shape all the way around.
 
ShyGirl

ShyGirl

Veteran Member
I agree that it is impossible to test for every possible and impossible scenario. However, when it comes to any microprocessor controlled safety system, firmware should never be able to enter an unexpected state. It should be possible to always predict the state of an embedded system at all times of operation regardless of what's going on. There should always be a failsafe, default state, etc. If there's ever a situation where the firmware enters an unexpected state you're missing some error checking.

Yes, perfect embedded code is possible. It just requires better planning.
Click to expand...
If the software cannot detect and correct for a particular set of events before it wanders off in the weeds the ultimate failsafe is the watchdog reset which does just that. It resets the software to the beginning. Then the startup sequence takes a certain amount of time especially when reloading values. If software resets the driver will probably notice a time delay until things start acting right again. No, perfect embedded code is not possible especially when you have customers expecting changes constantly during development, sales that tells them "sure we can do that in a couple of days" and management that beats on your head to patch it in to meet that promised timeline. The best laid plans will always be overridden by customers/sales/management. Been there, done that, got the lousy T-shirt.
 
W

Warthog

Tusk Up
Red Baron said:
I really think Toyota has put off a bunch of small but manageable problems until it has now become one big problem.


You can bet your ass that Obama and Government Motors is attempting to destroy Toyota. Ive had Toyota and Honda vehicles and they have both WAY outlasted any piece of shit American made car that I have ever owned. I've got two Fords now, and nothing but trouble out of these two crappers and they're only 2005s! I sold my Honda Accord to get one of these Found On Road Dead blunders. When I sold my Honda it had 225,000! The kid I sold it to is still driving it and it now has 275,000!(sure wish I had it back) I have a 1997 Toyota 4 Runner with 170,000 on it and my wife feels much more confident in that. So! I would take the Toyota or Honda any day over American union built shit!
warty
Click to expand...
 
O

OddOne

< Yes, I do look like that.
ShyGirl said:
If the software cannot detect and correct for a particular set of events before it wanders off in the weeds the ultimate failsafe is the watchdog reset which does just that. It resets the software to the beginning. Then the startup sequence takes a certain amount of time especially when reloading values. If software resets the driver will probably notice a time delay until things start acting right again. No, perfect embedded code is not possible especially when you have customers expecting changes constantly during development, sales that tells them "sure we can do that in a couple of days" and management that beats on your head to patch it in to meet that promised timeline. The best laid plans will always be overridden by customers/sales/management. Been there, done that, got the lousy T-shirt.
Click to expand...

Sorry, still cannot agree - any firmware that could kill someone if it goes spelunking in the caves of crashville can not be allowed to crash, ever. Additionally, watchdog timers often can't be used in critical safety systems as the time it'd take to cycle a watchdog reboot would be way longer than it might take to kill someone. If that goal of solid firmware is not achieved it shouldn't ship, and if it ships anyway, well, look at Toyota.

And I maintain that perfect embedded code is quite doable. Been there and done that, and opened a T-shirt stand. ;)
 
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