WTF?!? Employers 2 redefine Your"employment" evade labor laws, skip"unemployment",social sec

[Kalliope]

Originally Posted by Timber

A win win for Corporations.
Hire the PT worker to the lowest bidder, then demand higher productivity.
Clears them from many government's restraints.

As the supply and demand law applies. As PT worker base grows corps. Will have pick of the crop at low prices.

BBBD Unions could be forced out of the picture. Another win for the corps.

This sounds like the third world labor force in the making.
Another paragraph from the liberal's elective hope and change playbook.

WTF does this have to do with liberals? This has everything to do with Wall St running corporations into the ground. This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama either, not one company has been "nationalized" (see Venezuela). There are very few corporations who are not listed on the SEC. SE Johnson Wax (a family owned company), Mars candies, etc. Ford is still mostly family run. It's when a corporation has an ISO (is that the right term), that that corporation turns it's operation into something that Wall St plunders, and if you think this started this year, you really need to back away from the keyboard and do some hard reading.

It's Wall St run amok along with Free Market principles that you are seeing played out - we are the very last country to be brought down and with all the Just Say No to Wall St regulations, this will keep on until we are 3rd world.

This ain't something new, it's just stepped up the process. Look to Goldman Sac's for the real "masters of the universe" and see where it all begins.

[undead]

Originally Posted by Kalliope

WTF does this have to do with liberals? This has everything to do with Wall St running corporations into the ground. This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama either, not one company has been "nationalized" (see Venezuela). There are very few corporations who are not listed on the SEC. SE Johnson Wax (a family owned company), Mars candies, etc. Ford is still mostly family run. It's when a corporation has an ISO (is that the right term), that that corporation turns it's operation into something that Wall St plunders, and if you think this started this year, you really need to back away from the keyboard and do some hard reading.

It's Wall St run amok along with Free Market principles that you are seeing played out - we are the very last country to be brought down and with all the Just Say No to Wall St regulations, this will keep on until we are 3rd world.

This ain't something new, it's just stepped up the process. Look to Goldman Sac's for the real "masters of the universe" and see where it all begins.

Most of this sort of "contractor conversion" activity is taking place within small companies, not the General Electrics of the country. For example, a dental office is going to take on a dental hygienist as a contractor, not as a regular employee. The bigger companies can better deal with the massive overhead from tracking compliance to all the taxes and regulations for individual employees. Small companies cannot. For a big company, the accounting overhead can be better spread amongst the employees, so the per-worker cost is less.

And no, it's not something new. But it's accelerating because new regulations are being added every year by the Feds and state governments, and its becoming more and more expensive to carry a single employee, just from dealing with all the hidden regulations that the employee never sees.

Obamacare, for example, would present a massive new set of compliancy requirements on companies. You would definitely see this turn into an avalanche if Obamacare were to pass.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by lectrickitty

Sounds like a return to pre WWII working conditions. People have gotten spoiled with their work place "taking care" of them. It's about time people get back to being self responsible.

Don't complain too loud until you visit a good CPA to discover if you will benefit from the "new" work style.

I prefer to work as contract labor instead of as an employee. I benefit more than way. Right now it feels pretty good to have my own personal retirement set up MY way instead of being forced into a SS system that will probably never return a penny of what I invested in my early years.

I am in full agreement.

Freedom is not a system that ties you to socialist programs as "benefits" for the rest of your life.

Americans have been slaves so long, they can't imagine any other way to live.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by BigBadBossyDog

You're way wrong. There is one other question:

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Is that an African or English swallow?

[Conrad Nimikos]

Government makes the regulations companies have to comply with. Government makes the tax laws that determine how companies structure themselves.

The present situation forces companies, to survive as business entities, to do what they are doing.

Do businesses want to destroy the middle class so they fewer customers? Or is it a goal of liberal/progressives to make more people dependent on government? My opinion is te current situation is entirely caused by government and is the goal of LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVES.


39

[PCViking]

Thanks for the post AIF. Times they are a changing.

I am an aerospace engineer, and have been since the late '80's. When I hired into Boeing just out of school, I was given a 2 inch thick packet of employee benefits. I remember showing my parents and them saying that's where your wages are. In the mid '90's, when I was laid off (from Boeing) I was making $15.xx an hour (as a degreed engineer with 6 yrs of experience. A month later I got a job (with a company that supplied work to Boeing) for $25 an hour, then there was a Boeing strike and I was laid off). A few months later, I got my first contract job making $36/hr. That was the norm in my industry that contractors made roughly double the wages of regular-direct employees. Then when you worked overtime, it got really good. There were NO benefits packages as a contractor, and depending on who you worked for, they might provide health-care you could buy, or you did that on your own.

You may have heard me moan about being unemployed. I am entering into my longest period of unemployment since becoming an engineer. Having been a contractor, there was a 1099, and now there is no unemployment...

OK, so here is the picture. 15 yrs ago, contract engineering had a base rate about double that of regular-direct employees... in 2009/10 the rates are par or below par.

Now when I am looking for positions and seeing that the rates are par or below what is being paid regular-direct employees. But, that really does not matter much since there are hundreds of applicants for every position that opens up. In my last position, making the highest rate of my career, I was just above par with the regular-direct employees, and w/o any benefits, sick or vacation time.

Btw, the Big aerospace companies, prefer to hire contract engineers, since they are easy to let go and thereby flow with manpower needs. The running joke is that if they like you and your work, you get a paycheck, if not... no recourse, etc.

The rates I'm hearing when I call on the few jobs that open, are about what I made 10-15 yrs ago and one job even quoted 22/hr. Please keep in mind that (what used to be) the higher wages, help to offset double living expenses, since most contractors live in one place and then take contracts in other places (when you take temp work you don;t sell your home and move, that would be stupid!). Literally that 22/hr job would not have paid for an apartment, it's inherent bills, food, travel, and costs of my home, gas and travel expenses to see DW. But, for me that was a non-issue... someone else got that job.

I'm certain there are lots of similar stories here on TB... mine is just another, and I share it to support AIF's post... USA is on a bad slide and it is beyond 'W', Obama or Clinton... There is a deep problem in our Fascist (Government/industry intermingled) system, that is coming home to roost in a big way. If you want to blame anyone, blame those MBA's

Right now I'm starting to wonder if I'll get another aerospace engineering job (something I love to do)... DW and I pray a lot!

[PCViking]

Originally Posted by undead

Most of this sort of "contractor conversion" activity is taking place within small companies, not the General Electrics of the country. For example, a dental office is going to take on a dental hygienist as a contractor, not as a regular employee. The bigger companies can better deal with the massive overhead from tracking compliance to all the taxes and regulations for individual employees. Small companies cannot. For a big company, the accounting overhead can be better spread amongst the employees, so the per-worker cost is less.

And no, it's not something new. But it's accelerating because new regulations are being added every year by the Feds and state governments, and its becoming more and more expensive to carry a single employee, just from dealing with all the hidden regulations that the employee never sees.

Obamacare, for example, would present a massive new set of compliancy requirements on companies. You would definitely see this turn into an avalanche if Obamacare were to pass.

UnDead... You're right with the small companies. But the large corporations do the same. I personally have worked as a contractor with Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, GE, Northurp-Grummen, Freightliner, Honda (and a few others)... These companies like to hire contractors because they are a liquid resource that are easy to hire and let go as manpower needs dictate. The catch is that with these companies, you go thru a "contracting house", which is really a professional temp service... and these professional contractors are referred to as "job-shoppers".

[Kent]

What does this have to do with liberals?

Most of the regulations causing this problem were put in place by liberals.

[PCViking]

Originally Posted by Kent

What does this have to do with liberals?

Most of the regulations causing this problem were put in place by liberals.

This is the fruit of a generation of democratic control of congress (congress makes the laws, ya know).

[RJC]

Originally Posted by Conrad Nimikos

Government makes the regulations companies have to comply with. Government makes the tax laws that determine how companies structure themselves.

The present situation forces companies, to survive as business entities, to do what they are doing.

Do businesses want to destroy the middle class so they fewer customers? Or is it a goal of liberal/progressives to make more people dependent on government? My opinion is te current situation is entirely caused by government and is the goal of LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVES.


39

How true it is, but NOW there is no way out.

If you leave the pot on the stove too long everything burns.

[intothatgoodnight]

Originally Posted by RJC

Much of what is said in the original post is simple incorrect. There are serious penalties for an employer to pay one as an independent contractor without strict compliance to certain rules. Any employer failing to comply should be turned in for violation.

Would-a, should-a, could-a.

If the employment rules ACTUALLY mattered, we would NOT have a problem with illegal immigrants.

The construction industries are RIFE with undocumented workers, and have been for YEARS -- there is an article on TB2K, published by the Washington Post back in ~2007, which documented this issue, discussing the undocumented carpenter's pay scales, how the employers managed to avoid prosecution, where the illegal workers gathered to find work, etc. -- ALL out in the open, nothing hidden -- I.C.E. could have used the info in the article to bust SEVERAL large construction firms, but don't recall reading or hearing as such.


intothegoodnight

[RJC]

Originally Posted by intothatgoodnight

Would-a, should-a, could-a.

If the employment rules ACTUALLY mattered, we would NOT have a problem with illegal immigrants.

The construction industries are RIFE with undocumented workers, and have been for YEARS -- there is an article on TB2K, published by the Washington Post back in ~2007, which documented this issue, discussing the undocumented carpenter's pay scales, how the employers managed to avoid prosecution, where the illegal workers gathered to find work, etc. -- ALL out in the open, nothing hidden -- I.C.E. could have used the info in the article to bust SEVERAL large construction firms, but don't recall reading or hearing as such.


intothegoodnight

This is more government incompetence.

If the rules are not enforced by government then the government creates an inbalance to competitiveness.

If the government fails in the enforcement of immigration and employment laws they should be fired.

We the people are to blame for being "Moderates" and so compassionate.

[Irish]

IF the company tells you WHEN to work (hours) and WHERE to work and provides you with the tools to work (computer, phone, etc), then you are an EMPLOYEE. This is according to the IRS rules.

Jon, a lot of people don't want to be independent contractors or self-employed and it is unfair of a company to force someone into this postion.

[Medic3]

Anyone that plays with the independant contractor rules is playing with fire...the underlying issue here is that people are gambling that they won't get caught...and by then things turn around and a few years have gone by and then they "fix" it. The real issue here is they are also subjecting themselves to being turned in.....

Workers compensation insurance companies know the 1099 game too they will still assess workers comp premiums on independant contractors that dont furnish certificates of insurance.

The worst part of this game is the business person that plays by the rules is less competitive than the competitor that breaks the rules ( and the law) to save: the Employer Fica, futa and SUI and avoid group insurance, holidays and vacation/sick pay.

One more symptom that things are slowly unwinding.....the best parts are soon to come.....

[inynmn]

Irish:
F the company tells you WHEN to work (hours) and WHERE to work and provides you with the tools to work (computer, phone, etc), then you are an EMPLOYEE. This is according to the IRS rules.

Jon, a lot of people don't want to be independent contractors or self-employed and it is unfair of a company to force someone into this postion.

Not true.
My spouse is a contractor, they tell him where to go, when, and what to do.
My spouse bears all the cost and liability (for the product - his labor).
He is directed by the companies office daily - which jobs, the "specs", often he is given "looser jobs" where he knows he will be "charged back" - for installing an inferior product. Then they try to blame him for an inferior "installation"
Then the fight begins.
To wrap it up - no benefits - I know Kallope will say he does not deserve them
no health insurance (completely unaffordable for about a decade), no unemployment, the tax onus is all on him - subject to
the wrath of the IRS extortion model -
meaning
have a good accountant and an available tax lawyer
Life in fear, hope you do not get ill
Eventually all legal American citizen slave workers will be more or less the same as Mexicans day laborers on the corner begging for work.
I'm sure Americans that believe they are "secure" will find fault, blame the looser contractors for their lot in life.
And the game continues.

[Grantbo]

I suspect that if the govt wasn't taxing companies to death and piling on mountains of regulations then these extreme steps wouldn't be necessary.

All problems start with the govt., business is just trying adapt. The solution is freedom of course.

[USDA]

I finally hit 65, not a gravey train, just a box lunch, plain SS and medicare. Have 2ndery insurance through my working wife. My 401K imploded years before, not even a kiss, or an explaination how it happened.

I worked most of my career as an RN as an agency temp nurse...no benefits worthy of the name, most temp agencies went out of business after a few very short years and took my work reports and history with them...I soon wised up and kept copies of my own.

The wages were good, generally a 1/3 more than a regular employee; sometimes double...and I was never around long enough to get caught up in hospital cliques and techniques for bending elbows and pulling out fingernails. Just done the job, and I was good at it, and left. Had plenty of time off...earned time and half for 4 over 8 hours and double time after 12 hours. I could have gold plated my car's muffler system for that. Because I did a lot of 24 hour shifts...and paid at the night time rate.

But I never had illness, besides a minor doctors visit, and knew many of them that would phone in a perscription for me without a visit. The wife, who is a nurse, held the steady job that provided health care for the kids and some for myself.

But overall, loss of benifits, I believe undercut the greater wages...and I had to pay tax on those greater wages; although I got milage etc...the IRS did run me through a ringer more than once. During an audit, they freeze you bank account. I would have been smarter to settle down and work for one hospital for the entire 30 years. I would have been ahead, bored to death, and sucidal, but money ahead.

Besides the money, temp workers enjoy no immunity from blame...that is the hospital has no stake in protecting you from blame, that might not be your fault but one of their regular employees or just the f**ked up way they did things. The temp agencies would not back me up either, since their bread was mainly buttered by the hospital account. It could be dicy at times. I needed confidence, great skills and lots of luck to have worked that way so long. Knowing a good lawyer could come in handy too. (Or at least hinting you had one...which is what I did...but never really needed one.)

One percocet tablet was short on one count...I worked the same hospital numerous times...the temp agency fired me and the hospital turned me into the board of nurses. I asked for and was granted a hearing...

It was hilarious, the temp agency tried to say, I took and probably sold the percocet on the street for $15 bucks for the one tablet. I simply reminded the hearing judge, a female, that I brought in more than $60,000 a year in the late 80's...and was I seriously going to jerperdize my career by selling, not many but just one pill. The temp agency was found in the wrong for firing me and ordered to pay my unemployment benifits...but I was working so it didn't matter at the time. The B of N found nothing to get upset over and my license was fine. They did not require drug test ect and frankly wondered what was wrong with the temp agency represenative for handling the non-event the way they did.

Later I moved to Oregon, was tired, applied for unemployment and got it for a year out of the money from the temp agency account...$900 a month at that time. Went right back to work after a years vacation paid for by the over cautious temp agencies perfidy.

Still, all considered, staying put would have been the smarter move...but doing temp work, if your good at it...can be a living and a good one...at least it was that way a few years ago.

[lectrickitty]

Originally Posted by Irish

IF the company tells you WHEN to work (hours) and WHERE to work and provides you with the tools to work (computer, phone, etc), then you are an EMPLOYEE. This is according to the IRS rules.

Jon, a lot of people don't want to be independent contractors or self-employed and it is unfair of a company to force someone into this postion.

When I had my telecommunications company I used sub contractors to do the work. You can tell them WHERE to work, and to a degree, WHEN to work. You can provide their supplies. I provided the cabinets they needed to install, also the ground rods and wire they installed for the grounding systems. Most of the jobs had to be completed by a specified date.

The main limit I had to stay within was that I could not tell them to work specific hours, such as 9 to 5. They could start at noon if they wanted. The only time constraints were that they had to have the job completed within the time-frame allowed.

I was told by the IRS that the basic rule is that I can assign them a job with limits of when, where, and how it must be completed, then leave it up to them to complete it on time, to the standards required. The company I contracted with sent out inspectors to check the work at regular intervals. One of the major requirements was that the ground field had to be tested before it was covered. That was "acceptable supervision" of a contractor to the IRS.

[Jubilation T. Cornpone]

We're in a race to the bottom thanks to GLOBALISM.
Welcome to the NEW WORLD ORDER.

If you have to compete with a guy living in a mud hut,
you better be prepared to live in a mud hut.

I'm going to do a youtube clip from "Life With Father",
starring William Powell.
It's based on the true story of Clarence Day, a well-to-do
NY stockbroker in the late eighteen hundreds.

The most important line in the whole movie comes from
Mr. Day and it is this:
"The tariff protects America against cheap foreign labor."

He is a rock-ribbed conservative Republican, and this
philosophy enabled the creation of the middle class as much
as the unions.

The New World Order republican's mantra is "FREE TRADE".
BULLCRAP.

All loyalty to America and Americans has been flushed down
the toilet.

That's OK.
When the middle class has been reduced to the poverty of Mexico,
who's going to buy their junk?

[Jubilation T. Cornpone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PCkaskpjiA

[cory]

This won't play well with those of you who think, "It's them." and "the jobs are going overseas to cheap labor", "Dubya or is it Barry now is selling me out."

Here's the harsh reality. What's happening is similar to what happened to agriculture when they shifted from animal pulled plows to diesel machinery.

The 160 acre family farm went away as expensive machinery, fertilizer, herbicides, and insecticides increased productivity. Yes, some farmers are hanging on by working 10X smarter, exploiting a niche, working hard, and exercising cost control.

That's happening across the board in industry, manufacturing, it's everywhere.

Tech and call center jobs have gone to India. Manufacturing has gone to China, Indonesia, etc. The wage cheapness is not the driver.

Consider a TV set. These used to be point-to-point hand wired. A 1950's TV set was a seriously expensive item because of the massive amount of labor in it.

About 50 years ago, hand wiring was replaced by circuit boards. These boards were stuffed with discrete devices on assembly lines by girls wearing uniforms and white caps. That reduced the cost.

20-30 years ago, they began phasing in dedicated VLSI TV circuits which reduced the parts count and slashed the manufacturing cost.

Today, TVs are built by "pick and place" robots on fully automated assembly lines. The girls are gone. There is almost no labor cost left in a TV set.

We could built TV sets in the U.S. but don't because the tax structure favors overseas manufacturing.

Robotics and software driven manufacturing have been eliminating jobs for 50 years. This is affecting software and engineering types too. The reason is that our stuff is also getting faster, cheaper, easier to do. We are not getting a free ride. Wages in some software and hardware sectors have fallen precipitously and jobs have vanished.

The model is "John Henry, the steel driving man". Man made obsolete by technology.

It's not "globalism" or "them". What happened was described in Frederick Pohl's short story, "the Midas Plague".

Productivity is so high that a few can supply the needs of many. Where it's broken down is that the distribution of work, goods, and services, has not been balanced. In fact, it's completely out of whack.

A small percentage of the population is working themselves to death. A larger percentage is pretending to work, some are managers but some are just people cluttering up the office environment. About 30% are unemployed or underemployed.

This will get worse until radical adjustments are made.

The good news is that this mess has nothing to do with any specific person. If you amp up your skills, work your network, don't stay stuck in your idea of what kind of work you do or how you do it, you can evade this mess.

It will take serious effort and luck to beat the mess. Sending resumes to job-sites and standing in line at job fairs won't cut it. Sure keep doing that because you never know, you might get lucky.

Once you realize that you are dealing with a primordial force and not just the nuttiness of the political and economic theory blatherers and get serious about busting through the system, you have a chance.

Them, us, red, blue, gold, welfare, off-shore, medical insurance restructuring, social security, don't even bother thinking about it. Find a job niche and make it work. If it doesn't pay off, try something else.

GLTA

[Jubilation T. Cornpone]

Originally Posted by cory

This won't play well with those of you who think, "It's them." and "the jobs are going overseas to cheap labor", "Dubya or is it Barry now is selling me out."

Here's the harsh reality. What's happening is similar to what happened to agriculture when they shifted from animal pulled plows to diesel machinery.

The 160 acre family farm went away as expensive machinery, fertilizer, herbicides, and insecticides increased productivity. Yes, some farmers are hanging on by working 10X smarter, exploiting a niche, working hard, and exercising cost control.

That's happening across the board in industry, manufacturing, it's everywhere.

Tech and call center jobs have gone to India. Manufacturing has gone to China, Indonesia, etc. The wage cheapness is not the driver.

Consider a TV set. These used to be point-to-point hand wired. A 1950's TV set was a seriously expensive item because of the massive amount of labor in it.

About 50 years ago, hand wiring was replaced by circuit boards. These boards were stuffed with discrete devices on assembly lines by girls wearing uniforms and white caps. That reduced the cost.

20-30 years ago, they began phasing in dedicated VLSI TV circuits which reduced the parts count and slashed the manufacturing cost.

Today, TVs are built by "pick and place" robots on fully automated assembly lines. The girls are gone. There is almost no labor cost left in a TV set.

We could built TV sets in the U.S. but don't because the tax structure favors overseas manufacturing.

Robotics and software driven manufacturing have been eliminating jobs for 50 years. This is affecting software and engineering types too. The reason is that our stuff is also getting faster, cheaper, easier to do. We are not getting a free ride. Wages in some software and hardware sectors have fallen precipitously and jobs have vanished.

The model is "John Henry, the steel driving man". Man made obsolete by technology.

It's not "globalism" or "them". What happened was described in Frederick Pohl's short story, "the Midas Plague".

Productivity is so high that a few can supply the needs of many. Where it's broken down is that the distribution of work, goods, and services, has not been balanced. In fact, it's completely out of whack.

A small percentage of the population is working themselves to death. A larger percentage is pretending to work, some are managers but some are just people cluttering up the office environment. About 30% are unemployed or underemployed.

This will get worse until radical adjustments are made.

The good news is that this mess has nothing to do with any specific person. If you amp up your skills, work your network, don't stay stuck in your idea of what kind of work you do or how you do it, you can evade this mess.

It will take serious effort and luck to beat the mess. Sending resumes to job-sites and standing in line at job fairs won't cut it. Sure keep doing that because you never know, you might get lucky.

Once you realize that you are dealing with a primordial force and not just the nuttiness of the political and economic theory blatherers and get serious about busting through the system, you have a chance.

Them, us, red, blue, gold, welfare, off-shore, medical insurance restructuring, social security, don't even bother thinking about it. Find a job niche and make it work. If it doesn't pay off, try something else.

GLTA

IT IS GLOBALISM.

The next step in the agenda is WORLD GOVERNMENT.

Not IF, WHEN.

YOUR SHACKLES ARE ALREADY BEING FORGED.

[johnnymac]

Originally Posted by cory

This won't play well with those of you who think, "It's them." and "the jobs are going overseas to cheap labor", "Dubya or is it Barry now is selling me out."

Here's the harsh reality. What's happening is similar to what happened to agriculture when they shifted from animal pulled plows to diesel machinery.

The 160 acre family farm went away as expensive machinery, fertilizer, herbicides, and insecticides increased productivity. Yes, some farmers are hanging on by working 10X smarter, exploiting a niche, working hard, and exercising cost control.

That's happening across the board in industry, manufacturing, it's everywhere.

Tech and call center jobs have gone to India. Manufacturing has gone to China, Indonesia, etc. The wage cheapness is not the driver.

Consider a TV set. These used to be point-to-point hand wired. A 1950's TV set was a seriously expensive item because of the massive amount of labor in it.

About 50 years ago, hand wiring was replaced by circuit boards. These boards were stuffed with discrete devices on assembly lines by girls wearing uniforms and white caps. That reduced the cost.

20-30 years ago, they began phasing in dedicated VLSI TV circuits which reduced the parts count and slashed the manufacturing cost.

Today, TVs are built by "pick and place" robots on fully automated assembly lines. The girls are gone. There is almost no labor cost left in a TV set.

We could built TV sets in the U.S. but don't because the tax structure favors overseas manufacturing.

Robotics and software driven manufacturing have been eliminating jobs for 50 years. This is affecting software and engineering types too. The reason is that our stuff is also getting faster, cheaper, easier to do. We are not getting a free ride. Wages in some software and hardware sectors have fallen precipitously and jobs have vanished.

The model is "John Henry, the steel driving man". Man made obsolete by technology.

It's not "globalism" or "them". What happened was described in Frederick Pohl's short story, "the Midas Plague".

Productivity is so high that a few can supply the needs of many. Where it's broken down is that the distribution of work, goods, and services, has not been balanced. In fact, it's completely out of whack.

A small percentage of the population is working themselves to death. A larger percentage is pretending to work, some are managers but some are just people cluttering up the office environment. About 30% are unemployed or underemployed.

This will get worse until radical adjustments are made.

The good news is that this mess has nothing to do with any specific person. If you amp up your skills, work your network, don't stay stuck in your idea of what kind of work you do or how you do it, you can evade this mess.

It will take serious effort and luck to beat the mess. Sending resumes to job-sites and standing in line at job fairs won't cut it. Sure keep doing that because you never know, you might get lucky.

Once you realize that you are dealing with a primordial force and not just the nuttiness of the political and economic theory blatherers and get serious about busting through the system, you have a chance.

Them, us, red, blue, gold, welfare, off-shore, medical insurance restructuring, social security, don't even bother thinking about it. Find a job niche and make it work. If it doesn't pay off, try something else.

GLTA

Cory, dead on. Voice in the wilderness though.

[Jubilation T. Cornpone]

Originally Posted by johnnymac

Cory, dead on. Voice in the wilderness though.

The Industrial Revolution isn't over,
it's just been out-sourced.

This idiocy is one of the many reasons we're in the shape we're in.

The sheeple who buy this pap are the first to weep and moan
over their plant shutting down and re-opening in Mexico.

I still remember many of the IT guys spouting this crap.
Until their jobs disappeared, only to reappear in India.

Talk about, "Cry me a River!"

Hypocrites All.

[cory]

That's a 1080P 43 inch HD LCD TV with stereo speakers built in. How do you build something like that in China, ship it around the world, then sell it for a profit?

You could move all TV production back to the U.S. and it would not budge the employment figures.

Production is so efficient that, like farming, a tiny percentage of the workforce supplies the needs of many.

Stop whining about them doing it to us and find your own path through this.

Production is so efficient, find a way to exploit it. This is the America, we can make something for ourselves.

GLTA.

[johnnymac]

Originally Posted by Jubilation T. Cornpone

The Industrial Revolution isn't over,
it's just been out-sourced.

This idiocy is one of the many reasons we're in the shape we're in.

The sheeple who buy this pap are the first to weep and moan
over their plant shutting down and re-opening in Mexico.

I still remember many of the IT guys spouting this crap.
Until their jobs disappeared, only to reappear in India.

Talk about, "Cry me a River!"

Hypocrites All.

JTC -

I worked in IT in the 1990s. In 2002, the jobs blew up and disappeared. I wasted about six months complaining about where my job went and then I...

Grew up.

I changed careers and did something else. That worked for a few years and then I changed careers again. A year ago, I had to start over again and just now, one year later, it is starting to pay off. A few years from now, if I am lucky, I will have to change again.

It's called adaption and survival of the species.

If I did what the auto worker, elevator operator, telegram delivery guy or buggy whip maker did, I would still be on Monster sending out shotgun resumes to anyone looking for a Sun certified Unix Sys Admin job and writing my congress man asking them to nuke India so I could have a job. (and I probably would be living in a refrigerator box too).

[cory]

Originally Posted by johnnymac

JTC -

I worked in IT in the 1990s. In 2002, the jobs blew up and disappeared. I wasted about six months complaining about where my job went and then I...

Grew up.

Tech-Wreck, 2000-2003. It hammered me. I changed careers twice in the last decade. Basically stayed with computers but in 2003, I dumped 30 years of specialized work history and started over in a different area.

In 2006, I started over again.

This last one seems to have some sticking power but I'm not taking a chance.

Yeah, I could be crying and whining about the mainframe jobs going to India.

By the way, there are lots of mainframe jobs in Iowa. IBM opened a tech center and is rumored to be paying a big $20/hour.

GLTA.

[johnnymac]

Originally Posted by cory

By the way, there are lots of mainframe jobs in Iowa. IBM opened a tech center and is rumored to be paying a big $20/hour.

GLTA.

I remember when Bank One opened a huge tech center in Columbus Ohio in 2002. I was offered a job there, but fortunately, just landed a gig and turned them down.

Bank One closed the tech center one or two years later I think and laid everyone off. I am glad I didn't take that one and get stuck in Ohio. Things are far worse there now. I stay away from those big projects now. Too volatile.

[jba4241]

So, Cory, two things.

First, you keep saying "find your own path" yada yada. Are there really going to be 100 million "new paths" or whatever the current number of working adults is.

Second, what is YOUR answer to your own question. "This will get worse until radical adjustments are made." What radical adjustments do you propose?

[Troke]

"...Production is so efficient that, like farming, a tiny percentage of the workforce supplies the needs of many..."

Working with horses in my area (tall grass prairie) took two men in the summer, one in the winter to farm 160 acres. Tractors showed up and one man could do it the year round.

Now one man can handle 640-900 acres which in the early tractor days would have taken 4-5 men.

Same thing has happened in every thing. I talked to a Canadian logger some years ago. IIRC, he started about 1950, woods crew was 150+. Now the crew is down to 60 or so, putting out more wood.

A lot of manufacturing jobs that disappeared were not outsourced, they just plain got pruned off.

A lot of other jobs got downgraded in skill. Used to be it took years to learn to properly set up and run a lathe. Now all you got to do is read a blueprint and punch numbers into a computer.

But you do have to be able to read.

[cory]

Originally Posted by jba4241

So, Cory, two things.

First, you keep saying "find your own path" yada yada. Are there really going to be 100 million "new paths" or whatever the current number of working adults is.

Second, what is YOUR answer to your own question. "This will get worse until radical adjustments are made." What radical adjustments do you propose?

Etc, Jonnymac, myself, and others have retooled, amped up their skills, or moved to a different area. We have found our path. I made a fine living on mainframes for decades. Today, IBM is hiring mainframe experts for $20/hour in Iowa. Some, Sysman, Compchyk, others certainly, are doing much better than that. Those who did not see change coming, cannot, or will not adapt are trampled.

If you walk the planet, you will find incredible, old stone carvings. Churches, castles, cathedrals. Somehow, someone had the time to build the skills and were fed while they did that work.

Fast forward to today and we're crying because we can't earn enough to keep ourselves in hot dogs and beans, pay the rent on a cottage? A 43 inch HD LCD TV is $499 at Target.

We have power saws and pneumatic nail guns. Why doesn't everyone have a comfortable, modest home?

We have electricity, computers, robotic manufacturing. Long distance phone calls are free or nearly so.

On the converse side, we have plenty of time to complain about globalism, whatever that is.

The problem isn't shortages, it's that costs overall are falling and the labor component of everything is shrinking.

The TV example. It used to take months of human labor to build a TV set using point-to-point wiring. I've seen Siemens pick and place robots work. The human labor component is in the minutes if not seconds. The parts costs are nominal.

Consequently the need for people, even skilled people is shrinking and their wages are falling.

The opportunity? There is work that needs to be done. This country could be rebuilt. Not into a idiotic Dubai arab vision of paradise but a reasonable 21st century America. Every park, every school, hospital, power lines, power plants, canals, roads, bridges.

Why is there crime? Why aren't there thousands of Andy of Mayberries or Jack Bauers backed up by kind of FBI that TB2K quivers in fear over?

Look at the dicotomy. 30% unemployed or underemployed and a continent sized country that could be rebuilt into the shining example of the 21st century.

We pay people to sit around and mutter and geeze, so it's not about money.

For the individual, it's a matter of making the decision to be a whiny-talker or a doer. It's OK to complain but back it up by finding your niche, learning, and making things happen.

My current niche is a bit strange, it's Lotus Notes @Formula Language and LotusScript. I give it another few good years but I'm already retooling, getting ready for the next phase of technology.

Might be Zigbee.

Realize this. I have 30+ years building code. I started programming on PL/I which is C's daddy. The Multics OS, the precursor of Unix was written in PL/I. I did MVS internals and mainframe applications and I have an MS/CS. I logged time on TCAM, again internals. TCAM was IBM's 2nd queueing telecommunications system and we did networking in the 1970's with it.

All these terms and products are obsolete but I have the fundamentals and model in my head. I know how software works.

It takes me about 6 months to a year to ramp up on something new because they are all old. The new syntax is usually idiotic. C#, Perl, Python, PHP, what nonsense....oh wait, OK I got it now. It's not so bad.

Go with your strengths. Find a way to re-torque your skills into some new paradigm.

MVS, mainfames, obsolete terms, -bing- 6 months, and I'm working as a consultant again. Not as a talker but cutting code that works and does stuff.

The adjustment is in our heads.

Good Luck to All.

[denfoote]

Originally Posted by L.A.B.

The only remaining question is what is the load limit on the horizontal portion of a lamp post.

Gunning for the boss is gonna become a national passtime!!!

It's kinda like playing kill the quarterback, only this uses lead pellets instead of a football.

[ainitfunny]

Originally Posted by cory

Etc, Jonnymac, myself, and others have retooled, amped up their skills, or moved to a different area. We have found our path. I made a fine living on mainframes for decades. Today, IBM is hiring mainframe experts for $20/hour in Iowa. Some, Sysman, Compchyk, others certainly, are doing much better than that. Those who did not see change coming, cannot, or will not adapt are trampled.

If you walk the planet, you will find incredible, old stone carvings. Churches, castles, cathedrals. Somehow, someone had the time to build the skills and were fed while they did that work.

Fast forward to today and we're crying because we can't earn enough to keep ourselves in hot dogs and beans, pay the rent on a cottage? A 43 inch HD LCD TV is $499 at Target.

We have power saws and pneumatic nail guns. Why doesn't everyone have a comfortable, modest home?

We have electricity, computers, robotic manufacturing. Long distance phone calls are free or nearly so.

On the converse side, we have plenty of time to complain about globalism, whatever that is.

The problem isn't shortages, it's that costs overall are falling and the labor component of everything is shrinking.

The TV example. It used to take months of human labor to build a TV set using point-to-point wiring. I've seen Siemens pick and place robots work. The human labor component is in the minutes if not seconds. The parts costs are nominal.

Consequently the need for people, even skilled people is shrinking and their wages are falling.

The opportunity? There is work that needs to be done. This country could be rebuilt. Not into a idiotic Dubai arab vision of paradise but a reasonable 21st century America. Every park, every school, hospital, power lines, power plants, canals, roads, bridges.

Why is there crime? Why aren't there thousands of Andy of Mayberries or Jack Bauers backed up by kind of FBI that TB2K quivers in fear over?

Look at the dicotomy. 30% unemployed or underemployed and a continent sized country that could be rebuilt into the shining example of the 21st century.

We pay people to sit around and mutter and geeze, so it's not about money.

For the individual, it's a matter of making the decision to be a whiny-talker or a doer. It's OK to complain but back it up by finding your niche, learning, and making things happen.

My current niche is a bit strange, it's Lotus Notes @Formula Language and LotusScript. I give it another few good years but I'm already retooling, getting ready for the next phase of technology.

Might be Zigbee.

Realize this. I have 30+ years building code. I started programming on PL/I which is C's daddy. The Multics OS, the precursor of Unix was written in PL/I. I did MVS internals and mainframe applications and I have an MS/CS. I logged time on TCAM, again internals. TCAM was IBM's 2nd queueing telecommunications system and we did networking in the 1970's with it.

All these terms and products are obsolete but I have the fundamentals and model in my head. I know how software works.

It takes me about 6 months to a year to ramp up on something new because they are all old. The new syntax is usually idiotic. C#, Perl, Python, PHP, what nonsense....oh wait, OK I got it now. It's not so bad.

Go with your strengths. Find a way to re-torque your skills into some new paradigm.

MVS, mainfames, obsolete terms, -bing- 6 months, and I'm working as a consultant again. Not as a talker but cutting code that works and does stuff.

The adjustment is in our heads.

Good Luck to All.

You sound contemptuous of all but the "way above average" cream of the crop American workers.

"Those who did not see change coming, cannot, or will not adapt are trampled."

That just rolls right out in your dog eat dog scenario. No mention of the significance of that statement for us ALL. No understanding for the ordinary hard working, AVERAGE intelligence American, NO THOUGHT HOW YOU YOURSELF, OVERNIGHT could become one of the "trampled". (Just have a TIA and suddenly FORGET everything you ever knew about computer code or some other key tool adults need.) My mom forgot how to use a TV remote, how to put on her clip on earrings, and do a lot of other fundamental things she knew perfectly well. My DH forgot how to TALK, suddenly speaking WORD SALAD nonsense. Thank God both recovered, but many, if not most don't.

[ainitfunny]

Originally Posted by cory

Etc, Jonnymac, myself, and others have retooled, amped up their skills, or moved to a different area. We have found our path. I made a fine living on mainframes for decades. Today, IBM is hiring mainframe experts for $20/hour in Iowa. Some, Sysman, Compchyk, others certainly, are doing much better than that. Those who did not see change coming, cannot, or will not adapt are trampled.

If you walk the planet, you will find incredible, old stone carvings. Churches, castles, cathedrals. Somehow, someone had the time to build the skills and were fed while they did that work.

Fast forward to today and we're crying because we can't earn enough to keep ourselves in hot dogs and beans, pay the rent on a cottage? A 43 inch HD LCD TV is $499 at Target.

We have power saws and pneumatic nail guns. Why doesn't everyone have a comfortable, modest home?

We have electricity, computers, robotic manufacturing. Long distance phone calls are free or nearly so.

On the converse side, we have plenty of time to complain about globalism, whatever that is.

The problem isn't shortages, it's that costs overall are falling and the labor component of everything is shrinking.

The TV example. It used to take months of human labor to build a TV set using point-to-point wiring. I've seen Siemens pick and place robots work. The human labor component is in the minutes if not seconds. The parts costs are nominal.

Consequently the need for people, even skilled people is shrinking and their wages are falling.

The opportunity? There is work that needs to be done. This country could be rebuilt. Not into a idiotic Dubai arab vision of paradise but a reasonable 21st century America. Every park, every school, hospital, power lines, power plants, canals, roads, bridges.

Why is there crime? Why aren't there thousands of Andy of Mayberries or Jack Bauers backed up by kind of FBI that TB2K quivers in fear over?

Look at the dicotomy. 30% unemployed or underemployed and a continent sized country that could be rebuilt into the shining example of the 21st century.

We pay people to sit around and mutter and geeze, so it's not about money.

For the individual, it's a matter of making the decision to be a whiny-talker or a doer. It's OK to complain but back it up by finding your niche, learning, and making things happen.

My current niche is a bit strange, it's Lotus Notes @Formula Language and LotusScript. I give it another few good years but I'm already retooling, getting ready for the next phase of technology.

Might be Zigbee.

Realize this. I have 30+ years building code. I started programming on PL/I which is C's daddy. The Multics OS, the precursor of Unix was written in PL/I. I did MVS internals and mainframe applications and I have an MS/CS. I logged time on TCAM, again internals. TCAM was IBM's 2nd queueing telecommunications system and we did networking in the 1970's with it.

All these terms and products are obsolete but I have the fundamentals and model in my head. I know how software works.

It takes me about 6 months to a year to ramp up on something new because they are all old. The new syntax is usually idiotic. C#, Perl, Python, PHP, what nonsense....oh wait, OK I got it now. It's not so bad.

Go with your strengths. Find a way to re-torque your skills into some new paradigm.

MVS, mainfames, obsolete terms, -bing- 6 months, and I'm working as a consultant again. Not as a talker but cutting code that works and does stuff.

The adjustment is in our heads.

Good Luck to All.

You sound contemptuous of all but the "way above average" cream of the crop American workers.

"Those who did not see change coming, cannot, or will not adapt are trampled."

That just rolls right out in your dog eat dog scenario. No mention of the significance of that statement for us ALL. No understanding for the ordinary hard working, AVERAGE intelligence American, NO THOUGHT HOW YOU YOURSELF, OVERNIGHT could become one of the "trampled". (Just have a TIA and suddenly FORGET everything you ever knew about computer code or some other key tool adults need.) My mom forgot how to use a TV remote, how to put on her clip on earrings, and do a lot of other fundamental things she knew perfectly well. My DH forgot how to TALK, suddenly speaking WORD SALAD nonsense. Thank God both recovered, but many, if not most don't.

[cory]

Originally Posted by ainitfunny

You sound contemptuous of all but the "way above average" cream of the crop American workers.
That just rolls right out in your dog eat dog scenario. No mention of the significance of that statement for us ALL. No understanding for the ordinary hard working, AVERAGE intelligence American, NO THOUGHT HOW YOU YOURSELF, OVERNIGHT could become one of the "trampled". (Just have a TIA and suddenly FORGET everything you ever knew about computer code or some other key tool adults need.) My mom forgot how to use a TV remote, how to put on her clip on earrings, and do a lot of other fundamental things she knew perfectly well. My DH forgot how to TALK, suddenly speaking WORD SALAD nonsense. Thank God both recovered, but many, if not most don't.

Wrong person to push back on.

I've been fighting a killing illness for 5 years and rebuilding my career. We all die sometime.

As for my technical skills V. average, pffft. It took me 5 years of slogging to GWU to get the MS/CS. It's what I chose instead of sitting slack-jawed in front of the tube (I have not turned on my TV in over a year) or hanging at the corner bar. There are seriously skilled mainframers working for $20/hour in Iowa.

There was some kind of sporting event the other day, football I think. I have no idea what that was about because I didn't care. It's OK to enjoy the game or whine about how rough things are. Neither gets you the skills needed for a better job.

Anyone with average intelligence can amp up their skills. If they can read, they can do. The problem is there is a mass of whiners who want things done for them.

As I pointed out are there is work to do, this whole country could be rebuilt. But that's talking about the big stuff. Find something at the ground level that you can do, build on it. Hone your skills. If your sector dries up, worm your way into another, then another.

50% to 70% of the workforce is doing great. Were they just lucky? Certainly some were but most got there through hard work. Ever notice how few people on welfare or other entitlements get anywhere? The fire was sucked out of them.

Those who focus on "I can't do it", "It's so hard", "The H1b's are taking my job", "It's globalism" are practicing the same "suck the fire out and teach people to give up." They want people to join their pity-party.

Grab a damn book and read into something. Become the best janitor in the city, then offer your services in a competitive arena. I knew a guy who did just that.

[inynmn]

ainitfunny:
No understanding for the ordinary hard working, AVERAGE intelligence American
....could become one of the "trampled"

cory:
Anyone with average intelligence can amp up their skills. If they can read, they can do. The problem is there is a mass of whiners who want things done for them.


A lot of Americans, mainly older, are frustrated because they have worked hard, ramped up their skills, changed careers, etc. and now they are running out of options.
Unless a miracle is on the horizon their average or above average intelligence perceives a rough road ahead.

I don't see it as whining. Think of the tens of thousands + college grads with thousands of dollars of student loan debt working retail or food service.

I have never had a problem finding a job, even in previous recessions I could somewhat choose; now that I've aged I'm realizing my experience is not the asset it was in the past. I'm thinking my age bracket is perceived as a negative - I'm statistically more expensive to insure medically, employers prefer cheaper, younger workers.
While I never considered being able to go to a doctor when sick, or a dentist visit a "right" - I never realized it is a privilege for millions of Americans in modern USA.
I feel badly for those aged 62 with no medical, they have to hope they don't drop dead before they reach age 65 for Medicare. Given that Medicare (& Social Security) is bankrupt older Americans that do not have extensive portfolios are completely screwed. Yes we all die sometime (won't be soon enough for me, I'm exhausted) - but not everyone looks forward to the afterlife.

I have worked hard for 29 years (while raising 3 children), paid all my taxes, never sucked the system.
While I anticipate another 20-25 years of work, providing I live that long, I will most likely earn 50% of my previous wage. Benefits are scarce, even compared to 10 years ago. The cost of Medical insurance is extortion.

I'm glad for anyone that can re-tool and succeed, logically not every American can do so.

[Blastoff]

Cory is right. The age of information/automation has eliminated many jobs.

For example - used to be you needed a airline ticket, you called an agent, a live person, who arranged that for you. And you paid whatever the cost was, showed up for the flight the agent put you on.

Now, you get on the internet yourself, use 3 or 4 websites that comb all the airlines' schedules and find yourself a convenient flight at the best price you can find. Those same websites can show you alternate flights at alternate times and alternate airports to save you even more money. You book your own flight on the internet, even choose your own seat on the airplane. You print your own ticket on your own printer, you can even check yourself in at a kiosk at the airport.

Of course, we like these conveniences, they save us money and time.

However, there's two jobs down, right there.

[cory]

Originally Posted by inynmn

A lot of Americans, mainly older, are frustrated because they have worked hard, ramped up their skills, changed careers, etc. and now they are running out of options.
...
I don't see it as whining. Think of the tens of thousands + college grads with thousands of dollars of student loan debt working retail or food service.

I have never had a problem finding a job, even in previous recessions I could somewhat choose; now that I've aged I'm realizing my experience is not the asset it was in the past. I'm thinking my age bracket is perceived as a negative

...

I'm glad for anyone that can re-tool and succeed, logically not every American can do so.

I am 63 and sick and every day is an adventure.

Anyone can worm into a new niche. It is harder today but not impossible.

I know several recent college graduates who have been unemployed for several years. Whiners and lay-abouts. Sorry, that's the way it is.

Here's a real example. 2 years out of an expensive university, lives off mommy and daddy because "Boo-hoo, I can't find a job". BS/EE. B-f'ing-S, Electrical Engineering!

His sister is 5 years out of school and also is "finding herself" by resting hard at home.

"Boo-hoo, there are no jobs, they all went overseas."

I can understand if the degree is in Gender Studies but Electrical Engineering? Come on. That is world class whining.

Here're the paradoxes and clues.

The mommy says that the young master of the house, Junior, has applied for lots of positions, she's sent out hundreds of resumes.

He's applying but she's sending? I think I see the problem.

He's sleeping in and she's clicking on Monster and Hotjobs, which just puts that resume in a queue with thousands of others.

Last October, I had a line on an entry job for an EE. The managing engineer of a small local company told me that they could go $40-50K.

I asked the mommy for the young master's resume. November came and went.

In December I asked again. Oh-oh-oh, I'll get it to you.

This is February. I still have not seen the resume. I am not asking again.

In January, the dad was laid off from his construction supervisor job. The buzz is that they are in great shape.

I don't think so.

Anyway, I'm not going to press the job. I raised the issue twice. I don't want to use up a chit if they don't have the fire in them.

They are not hungry enough.

[inynmn]

cory:
They are not hungry enough.

Agree many youthful types have no ambition, etc - part of the "affluence cycle", American style. Surely an Elec eng grad could find something in the field, at least to start.
Education is also not what it used to be (business mgmt, etc type degrees) - I've known many that won't recoup their cost for decades.

I recently overheard a young woman's conversation - she said
"I had a baby when I was 24, and I was a baby having a baby".
I was shocked, suppose for some 24 is the new 14.

[ShyGirl]

A lot of Americans, mainly older, are frustrated because they have worked hard, ramped up their skills, changed careers, etc. and now they are running out of options.

This about sums up my situation right now. I am so tired of being screwed over. I have rolled with the punches so long that I am punch drunk. Layoffs have sucked me dry as far as having any money for retirement. I am sick and tired of the late nights for no extra pay and no respect. I was trying to go for some training for some Microsoft certs using the TAA program that I am qualified for but was questioned as to why "at my age" I wanted to go back to school by the 20 something youngster in charge of the program.
So cory, how to you keep fighting? How do you keep up a positive attitude? I just don't know how you do it especially with a life threatening illness to boot. I just have the normal aches and pains of an overweight 62 year old woman with bad knees and I am finding it almost impossible to bounce back this time.