WAR A Brazen Evil

Desperado

Membership Revoked
A Brazen Evil
Benny Morris argues for nuclear genocide against Iran
by Justin Raimondo

Evil usually hides its face, because the sight of it repulses all but the depraved. However, in the case of Benny Morris, writing in Friday's New York Times, we see something new: a proud evil, glorying in pure malevolence. His piece is a cold, calculated attempt to simultaneously shock and intimidate, one that succeeds at the former but fails miserably at the latter.

Here's the shocker, really a double jolt: "Israel," he avers, "will almost surely attack Iran's nuclear sites in the next four to seven months." Either that, he writes, or else Israel will eventually have to launch "a preemptive nuclear strike." His message to the West: take out Iran, or we'll nuke 'em!

The Israelis have been threatening to strike for the past six months, so nothing new there, except for the tone of certainty. Morris is no fringe nut-job flailing away on his obscure blog; he's a prominent Israeli historian writing on the most noted opinion page of them all, a veritable bulletin board for governing elites worldwide. As such, he is almost certainly speaking with some insight into Israeli government plans. It is, in any case, almost inconceivable that he wrote his piece without the foreknowledge and consent of Israeli government officials.

As to whether he – and they – are bluffing, well, I wouldn't count on it. With all this talk of Iran's alleged attempt to build nuclear weapons – which our own intelligence services say was abandoned years ago – Israel is the one country in the region we know is armed to the gills with nukes. Given their history, the increasing extremism of their leadership and polity, and their fanatical devotion to the doctrine of preemption – indeed, they invented it, while George W. Bush merely adopted it – the Israelis are far more likely than any other member of the nuclear club to actually use nukes, as Morris makes all too clear.

In what has to be the most widely circulated blackmail note ever written, Morris announces, "It is in the interest of neither Iran nor the United States (nor, for that matter, the rest of the world) that Iran be savaged by a nuclear strike" – so take out the Iranians, or we will. To be fair, he also says it won't be a good thing if "both Israel and Iran suffer such a fate," but since Iran has no nuclear weapons and has given up all attempts to make them, this is just window-dressing for a genocidal agenda.

Morris's rationale for mass murder is oddly hollow and formulaic: Well, you see, "Every intelligence agency in the world believes the Iranian program is geared toward making weapons, not to the peaceful applications of nuclear power." To begin with, this has got to be a misprint. Surely what Morris meant to say was that every Israeli intelligence agency thinks Iran is on the verge of acquiring nukes. Why else are the Israelis slated to make a series of trips to the U.S. to convince their American counterparts that they are right, and the Americans' National Intelligence Estimate on Iran is wrong?

Aside from that, there is a dispute as to where to draw the "red line," the point-of-no-return, the passage of which acts as a tripwire provoking military intervention. The Israelis have a far tighter timeline, as you might imagine, and their forecast – "one to four years" – is wildly improbable. It is based on the development of the ability to weaponize nuclear processes in a purely theoretical sense, quite aside from the problems posed by construction, possible detection, and delivery.

Reading the Morris screed, one wonders how he came to write such an unimaginative apologia for what would rank among the worst crimes in human history: "everybody knows" the Iranians are trying to build nukes (where have we heard that before?), the sanctions aren't working, the Russians and the Chinese won't cooperate, oh, and "the American public has little enthusiasm for wars in the Islamic lands."

As anyone with the least amount of historical or common sense could easily figure out, even if Iran did develop a nuclear weapons arsenal, it would create a nuclear stalemate analogous to the Cold War standoff between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Morris claims this example doesn't apply, due to "the fundamentalist, self-sacrificial mindset of the mullahs who run Iran." Aside from the ruling by Iranian Shi'ite religious authority Ayatollah Ali Khamenei – the real leader of Iran – that forbids the development, stockpiling, and use of nuclear weapons, what about his own genocidal mindset, which glories in the prospect of ethnic cleansing? No Iranian personage of any prominence has called for the nuclear extermination of Israel in quite the same terms as Morris, not even Iranian President Ahmadinejad, whose vague remark about Israel "disappearing from the page of history" has been interpreted as a threat to use nukes.

Morris neither knows nor cares about Iran's alleged nukes. Lurking behind his mundane laundry list of complaints is, I fear, a darker motive: sheer bloodlust. Morris simply wants to kill as many Muslims as possible, so why doesn't he just come out and say it? After all, it isn't like he hasn't said it before:

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide – the annihilation of your people – I prefer ethnic cleansing."

It isn't very often that we get to see pure, unmitigated evil, in all its Satanic darkness, expressed openly on the printed page. Morris and the Times have given us one of the rare modern examples of the genre. One might compare it to Hitler's maleficent vision in Mein Kampf, but that would be giving Morris too much credit. Unlike the Nazis, who blamed their victims for the horrors visited upon them, Morris also blames Israel's friends and allies – the West, and specifically the antiwar American public, which "curtails the White House's ability to begin yet another major military campaign in pursuit of a goal that is not seen as a vital national interest by many Americans."

We must forget our national interests and go to war for Israel's sake, or else the Israelis will unleash their illegal and unaccounted-for nukes, killing tens of thousands, poisoning the atmosphere, and forever scarring human history with the mark of their heinous crime. This is like one of those hostage dramas in which a mad gunman grabs someone and uses them as a human shield, braying his demands to horrified onlookers.

Americans must reject this attempt at moral blackmail with the contempt it deserves – and perhaps begin to reexamine the "special relationship" that enables Israel to even contemplate such crimes against humanity. As for Morris, he should be shunned by every decent human being, although perhaps that description doesn't apply to the editors of the New York Times.
~ Justin Raimondo
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13168
 

buff

Deceased
dude..just get it over with and move to Yemen or Syria...then you can prosecute your personal war against Israel any way you see fit.
 

zkanker

Inactive
It's a nice article, Desperado, but aparently you missed the "no criticism of Isreal or Isrealis will be tolerated on this board" posts by the mods a while back. Aside from that, I suspect you're about to get flamed by just about everyone here.
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
It's a nice article, Desperado, but aparently you missed the "no criticism of Isreal or Isrealis will be tolerated on this board" posts by the mods a while back. Aside from that, I suspect you're about to get flamed by just about everyone here.

:) Won't be the first time..... and it won't be the last either.
Amazing that so many here are willing to put Israel's well being before ours.
I'll bet if it came down to a choice between continued welfare for Israel or Social Security to our citizens, most here would say give the money to Israel.
 

Topusaret

Deceased
blah, blah, blah, Joooos, blah, blah, Evil, blah, blah, Conspiracy, blah, blah, blah, Genocide, blah blah, :kk2:

Like the cop-bashing threads, it's getting old.
 

RB Martin

Veteran Member
I wonder if Ahmanutjob would be willing to disclose the location of the well from which they expect their Mahdi to emerge?

With the proper location, perhaps we could air-drop Desperado into the well shaft.

Then he could really learn for whose side he constantly shills and harps!:ld:
 

buff

Deceased
And Brazil TAMBIEN, so you can have a two nation vacation!



yep...lived in brasil, and been to Israel twice...both great countries with wonderful real people. I go to brasil at least once a year. i'd love to go back to Israel...just in case i missed anything in the holy land.

Dude, with your love for Israel, you should consider moving there.

naw...i'm catholic...rome would be more fitting...it is the most wonderful place i've been too...but the traffic would get old quick.

i prefer my north carolina beach.
nd Brazil TAMBIEN, so you can have a two nation vacation!

tambien is spanish...they don't speak spanish in brasil...its portuguese.

também is the right word amigo...
 
It is

not "most" of the people here. I suspect most people "here" on TB are not willing to enter an nuclear armageddon hell for the secular State of Isreal, and I also suspect more and more are seeing the obvious propaganda for what it is, mindless brainwashing of the American public for the purposes of the relative handful of people who have taken control of this country and it's armed forces.

As for "most", it is usually the same 8-10 VERY loud protestors. What do the Israeli's call their world wide network? Sayanim?


A couple of posters here have slipped up once or twice. When I have the time, and the interest, I'll try to sleuth out the slip ups, which might surprise TB Americans, who are being herded into yet another useless WAR for Israel.


We don't need it, it is NOT necessary, and the blood of our people should be shed for AMERICAN INTERESTS and not any foreign country.
 

Ender

Inactive
Justin Raimondo is pretty on top of it; I always read him with interest.

I think it would behoove all of us to stop reacting and start thinking.

Why is Iran being singled out? Iran has been a mark for the US for a while; the country does not deserve this. It's people are some of the most westernized people in the ME. MORE than Israel in some ways.

There is NOTHING glorious about nuclear war.
 

Brutus

Inactive
Justin Raimondo is pretty on top of it; I always read him with interest.

I think it would behoove all of us to stop reacting and start thinking.

Why is Iran being singled out? Iran has been a mark for the US for a while; the country does not deserve this. It's people are some of the most westernized people in the ME. MORE than Israel in some ways.

There is NOTHING glorious about nuclear war.
Justin Raimondo is a commie-assed, "Never-met-an-enemy-of-the-US-he-didn't-like", f***ing douche bag.

:fgr:
 

kozanne

Inactive
Brutus, tell us how you REALLY feel! LOL!

ETA: Raimondo is talking out his a**.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.684,css.print/pub_detail.asp




July 23, 2008

IAEA indicts Iran
Peter Brookes


New intelligence continues to blast away like a sledgehammer at Iran’s rocklike insistence that its nuclear program is purely peaceful and not a nuclear weapons effort as many strongly believe.

The latest evidence comes out of the United Nation’s nuclear watchdog in Vienna, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), which released a nine-page report that casts serious doubt on Iran’s purported pacifist power program.

In a dramatic change, based on new, multi-source, multilateral intelligence received over time from its members, the IAEA has shifted its position from being unable to prove Iran has a nuclear weapons program to being unable to prove Iran doesn’t have one.

Regrettably, the nuclear weapons shoe increasingly fits Iran’s foot quite snuggly.

ATOMIC ACCUSATIONS

Based on 18 hard-copy and electronic documents provided to the IAEA, the nuclear-monitoring agency revealed in its report in late May several deeply disturbing concerns on the nature of Iran’s nuclear program, especially possible military dimensions. In its first formal assessment of Iran’s nuclear efforts since February, the IAEA states: “The agency is of the view that Iran may have additional information, in particular on high explosives testing and missile-related activities, which could shed more light on the nature of these alleged studies and which Iran should share with the agency.”

The IAEA considers these unanswered questions on Iran’s nuclear work “a matter of serious concern,” because the existence of this sort of activity might indicate Tehran is secretly developing a nuclear weapon, contrary to its repeated public protestations.

Moreover, the report states: “Iran has not provided the agency with all the information, access to documents and access to individuals necessary to supports Iran’s statements,” despite the new intelligence, which is “detailed in content and appears to be generally consistent.”

The first charge is that Iran is suspected of conducting high explosives testing. This includes work with exploding bridge wire (EBW) detonators and a detonator firing unit, which could be used for triggering a nuclear weapon; 500 EBW detonators were tested.

In addition, a five-page document described experiments for a “complex multipoint initiation system” to “detonate a substantial amount of high explosive in hemispherical geometry” that could be employed in an implosion-type nuclear device.

Tehran also is accused of developing plans for underground explosives testing, which could be used for detonating a nuclear weapon similar to the testing done by North Korea when it joined the once-exclusive nuclear club in October 2006.

The documents include a diagram for what is described as a 400-meter-deep shaft located 10 kilometers from a firing control point, showing “the placement of various electronic systems such as a control unit and a high-voltage power generator.”

There is also a mysterious piece of information the IAEA calls the “uranium metal document” in its report, which is related to the “actual design or manufacture by Iran of nuclear material components of a nuclear weapon.” The document reportedly involves procedures for machining highly enriched uranium metal into a hemispherical shape, key to producing the rounded pits used in modern implosion-type nuclear weapon warheads.

Strikingly, the report notes that “Pakistan has confirmed, in response to the agency’s request, that an identical document exists in Pakistan” to the one found in Iran — possibly showing connections to Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program.

PROJECT 111

Another IAEA concern is work on a new ballistic missile warhead, known as Project 111, for Iran’s medium-range ballistic missile, the Shahab-3, which can range all of the Middle East, as well as parts of southern Europe. According to six technical documents in the IAEA’s possession, Iran appears to have been involved in the redesign of the payload chamber of the current “Shahab-3 missile re-entry vehicle to accommodate a nuclear warhead.”

Although not detailed in the report, Iran also is suspected to be involved in the aggressive development of an intercontinental ballistic missile, perhaps under cover of a civilian space program. In the report, the IAEA also questioned the Iranian military’s seeming involvement in Tehran’s civilian nuclear efforts. It seems military-related institutions are involved in suspicious procurement activities for Iran’s purported nuclear power program.

There are also concerns about an unexplained letter published by the chairman of Iran’s high-ranking Expediency Council in September 2006, which makes “reference to possible acquisition of nuclear weapons.”

It gets worse.

UNABATED URANIUM ENRICHMENT

The report also notes that Iran continues uranium enrichment, the proverbial long-pole in the tent in producing a nuclear weapon — at least in comparison with developing a delivery platform or warhead. As the American IAEA representative, Ambassador Gregory Schulte, told the press: “At the same time that Iran is stonewalling its [IAEA] inspectors, it’s moving forward in developing its enrichment capability in violation of [U.N.] Security Council resolutions.”

Iran’s uranium enrichment plant at Natanz already is using at least 3,000 centrifuges. Theoretically, if operating efficiently, this line could produce enough weapons-grade fissile material to build one bomb in a year to 18 months time. The uranium enrichment process can produce fuel for a nuclear power reactor or fissile material for a nuclear weapon. To date, Iran has publicly stated enrichment rates of more than 4 percent, suitable for reactor fuel if produced in sufficient quantities; weapons-grade uranium is usually enriched to above 90 percent. Some experts say they think Iran could have as many as 6,000 centrifuges online, spinning at supersonic speed in the near future — by, perhaps, this summer — turning uranium hexafluoride gas into some level of enriched uranium.

Tehran has steadfastly insisted that it has the right to enrich uranium for nuclear reactor fuel as stipulated under the terms of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty — ironically, an accord Iran violated by failing to declare its nuclear program to the IAEA for some 20 years.

The new IAEA report also notes the previously undisclosed development of a new generation of centrifuge. The IR-3 improves upon previous models based on the less-efficient Pakistani design procured from A.Q. Khan’s nuclear proliferation network. Khan, the father of the Pakistani bomb, led a network of nuclear enablers that serviced not only the Iranian nuclear program with equipment and know-how, but also the North Korean and Libyan programs.

Agency inspectors also raised concerns about the fact that “substantial parts of the centrifuge components were manufactured in the workshops of the [Iranian] Defense Industries Organization,” blurring the lines between Tehran’s civilian and a possible military program.

The bottom-line anxiety here, besides the fact Iran didn’t declare this new equipment (and capability) to the IAEA as required, is that the new, more-efficient centrifuges will allow Iran to produce more enriched uranium — for reactors or bombs — more quickly.

Iran, with Russian assistance, also is continuing construction of its nuclear plant at Bushehr — its first nuclear reactor. A good deal of the reactor’s fuel is already in place, having been shipped in from Russia since last December. The IAEA also is monitoring construction of an Iranian nuclear research reactor that experts are concerned could be used for experimentation on reprocessing spent nuclear reactor fuel, from a reactor such as Bushehr, into fissile material for use in nuclear weapons.

REPORT REBUFF

Interestingly, in all of this, Iran doesn’t see an indictment of wrongdoing but, on the contrary, views the report as an exoneration of guilt. Iran’s IAEA envoy, via the Iranian news service, said the report is “a vindication and reiteration of the peaceful nature of Iran’s nuclear activities.” In addition, Tehran officially said the IAEA documents “do not show any indication that the Islamic Republic of Iran has been working on a nuclear weapon,” adding that many of the documents had been “forged” or “fabricated,” especially because they were in an electronic format.

In some cases, Iran didn’t quibble with the information, instead insisting that “the events and activities concerned involved civil or conventional military applications,” such as the testing of detonators for use in the oil industry. Although Iran has promised to address all concerns, many of these questions are likely to remain a mystery because of Iran’s regular refusal to allow the IAEA access to procurement personnel and scientists or open suspect sites to the agency’s atomic sleuths.

The new IAEA report more starkly calls into relief questions about the intent of Iran’s nuclear efforts, leaving Tehran’s claims to a purely civilian nuclear power program increasingly in doubt. As a result, the IAEA has called upon Tehran to increase transparency by signing an Additional Protocol, which would give agency inspectors access to any facility suspected of undeclared nuclear activity. This is a fundamental requirement in a large country such as Iran (four times the size of California), where sites are numerous and sometimes well hidden. Verification of compliance, even under the best of conditions, is difficult.

But old habits die hard. Tehran likely will continue to obfuscate and dissemble, preventing the IAEA from gaining a realistic assessment of the nature of Iran’s nuclear program — which, unfortunately, places time squarely on Tehran’s side.

Key findings of the Iran report

1. Iran has continued to operate the original unit at the fuel enrichment plant and installation work has continued on four other units; it also has reported and installed a new generation sub-critical centrifuge.

2. As of May 12, about 11 metric tons of uranium had been produced since Feb. 3, bringing the total amount of uranium produced since March 2004 to 320 metric tons, all of which remains under IAEA containment and surveillance.

3. Iran has not agreed to IAEA’s request for access to additional locations related to nuclear processing.

4. Iran’s alleged studies on the green salt project (converting uranium dioxide to uranium tetrafluoride, or green salt, an important component the uranium refining industry), and its alleged high explosives testing and a missile re-entry vehicle project remain of “serious concern.”

5. Substantive explanations are required, but not forthcoming, from Iran to support its statements on alleged studies and other information with possible military dimensions.

6. Iran has not suspended its enrichments related activities, contrary to decisions of the U.N. Security Council.

FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Peter Brookes is a Senior Fellow for National Security Affairs at the Heritage Foundation and is a member of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission. Feedback: editorialdirector@familysecuritymatters.org.
You can find this online at: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.684/pub_detail.asp


COPYRIGHT 2008 FAMILY SECURITY MATTERS INC.
 
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yeah

....................

and we are expected to swallow all the bilderburger/cfr bullshit that fills our AND the european press?

even the europeans have caught on................


the rich and powerful very small handful have taken the helm, and through their incompetance and very very bad timing are steering all into the rocks.

history is about to relive the late 18th and early 19th centuries. that is another prediction if Kris is still keeping track.
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
If you don't like Justin Raimondo then you're really not going to like Michael Scheuer


Turning the Tables
on the Israel-Firsters
by Michael Scheuer

Now that the dust has settled in the spat between journalist Joe Klein and the ideologues at Commentary, it is time to regret the ink spilled over the non-issue of "dual loyalties." The idea that there are U.S. citizens who have equal loyalties to the United States and Israel is passé. American Israel-firsters have long since dropped any pretense of loyalty to the United States and its genuine national interests. They have moved brazenly into the Israel first, last, and always camp. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, Norman Podhoretz, Victor Davis Hanson, the Rev. Franklin Graham, Alan Dershowitz, Rudy Giuliani, Douglas Feith, the Rev. Rod Parsley, Paul Wolfowitz, James Woolsey, Bill Kristol, the Rev. John Hagee, and the thousands of wealthy supporters of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) appear to care about the United States only so far as Washington is willing to provide immense, unending funding and the lives of young U.S. service personnel to protect Israel. These individuals and their all-for-Israel journals – Commentary, National Review, the Weekly Standard, and the Wall Street Journal – amount to nothing less than a fifth column intent on involving 300 million Americans in other peoples' religious wars, making them pay and bleed to protect a nation in which the United States has no genuine national security interest at stake.

The Israel-firsters' success is, of course, the stuff of which legends are made. Most recently, for example, we heard President Bush echo Sen. Lieberman's insane and subversive contention that the United States has a "duty" to ensure the fulfilling of God's millennia-old promise to Abraham regarding the creation and survival of Israel. Bush told the Knesset all Americans are ready to endlessly bleed and pay to ensure Israel's security. And where does the president derive authority to make such a commitment in the name of his countrymen? From the Constitution? On the basis of America's dominant religion? From – heaven forbid – a thoughtful, hardheaded analysis of U.S. interests?

No, Bush's pledge was based on none of these. Bush's decision to more deeply involve America in the eternal Arab-Israeli war was based on nothing less than the corruption wrought on the American political system by the Israel-firsters, AIPAC's enormous treasury, and the lamentable but growing influence of America's leading evangelical Protestant preachers.

The Israel-firsters started the Iraq war and now have the United States locked into an occupation of that country that may not end in any of our lifetimes. Unless Americans ignore the likes of Hanson, Podhoretz, Lieberman, Woolsey, and Wolfowitz, the cost in blood and treasure will ultimately bankrupt America.

AIPAC is a perfectly legal organization, and the wealth of its members is channeled into reliable campaign contributions for any candidate from either party who will put Israel's interests above America's. From McCain to Obama, from Pelosi to Giuliani, from Hillary Clinton to Vice President Cheney, AIPAC pumps money to any and every American politician who is willing to adopt an Israel-first policy.

Leading American Protestant evangelical preachers – men like Hagee, Parsley, and Graham – are the newest and perhaps most anti-American members of this fifth column. They serve two purposes: (1) to reinforce in the minds of their flocks the Bush-Lieberman absurdity that the United States has a "duty" to ensure Israel's survival; and (2) to use religious rhetoric to steadily convince the Muslim world that U.S. leaders are interested only in taming – and if need be, destroying – Islam.

The reality and power of this anti-American, pro-Israel triangle – Israel-first politicians, civil servants, and pundits; AIPAC's corrupting influence; and the warmongering of major evangelical Protestant preachers – is so obvious and palpable that the only way its members can blur reality is to deny the triangle's existence and identify their critics as anti-Semites. Well, the time has come to simply ignore these folks' knee-jerk hurling of that epithet. Indeed, the slur ought to understood for what it is: a sure sign that the Israel-firsters know that their fifth column would be destroyed in a minute if their fellow Americans come to recognize that their sons and daughters are dying in Iraq and soon elsewhere to protect an Israeli state whose existence is just as important to U.S. interests as the creation of a Palestinian state – that is, of no importance whatsoever.

American voters must start using the democratic process to begin removing themselves from the religious war known as the Arab-Israeli conflict. Disengagement will take time, hard work, and a steadfast commitment to the rule of law. Three actions are well within the voters' capability, and their use would bring pressure on federal officials to stop killing America's children in wars between Arabs and Israelis.

1. Voters should press federal representatives to end taxpayer funding for the National Endowment for Democracy and other such organizations. These organizations' main function is to promote the fallacy that U.S. interests are served by making sure that Israel – "the embattled island of democracy in the Middle East" – is protected, and that the lives of American children should be joyfully spent to bring democracy to foreigners in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
2. Voters should not vote for any candidate for federal office who accepts contributions from AIPAC or any other Israel-first organization. This decision would be an important step in beginning to sweep clean the Augean stable that is American politics.
3. Voters of all faiths must press their religious leaders to regularly, publicly, and specifically denounce the evangelical Protestant preachers whose fire-and-brimstone support for Israel involves Americans in religious wars in which U.S. interests are not threatened.

Neutralizing the Israel-first fifth column must be done, but it must be accomplished using legitimate democratic tools: voting, lobbying, free speech, and support for candidates pledged to keep America out of other peoples' religious wars. The invocation of the anti-Semite epithet by the Israel-firsters should be ignored. To be silenced by the slurs of the Israel-firsters is to ignominiously invite the end of American independence by subordinating U.S. interests to those of a foreign nation, as well as to forget the warning of the greatest American. "If men are precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences that can invite the consideration of mankind," George Washington said in March 1783, "reason is of no use to us; the freedom of speech may be taken away, and, dumb and silent, we may be led, like sheep, to the slaughter." As long as the Israel-firsters can define the limits of acceptable public discourse, Americans are on their way to the slaughter.

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=13139
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
IAEA indicts Iran

Ask Yourself:
Which country in the Middle East actually possesses nuclear weapons?
Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?
Which country in the Middle East refuses to allow international inspections of its nuclear facilities?
Hint The country begins with an I
Not Iraq, Not Iran want a third guess?
 

Wardogs

Inactive
Ask Yourself:
Which country in the Middle East actually possesses nuclear weapons?
Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?
Which country in the Middle East refuses to allow international inspections of its nuclear facilities?
Hint The country begins with an I
Not Iraq, Not Iran want a third guess?

Ask yourself...
What moron constantly posts articles from websites like anti war.com

What poster constantly has an anti Israel agenda while never saying a word about others who not only rant against America, but actually ACT on those rants...

Why don't you whine about Obama who has dual citizenship with both Kenya (by birth through his father) and Indonesia (by being adopted by his step father)?

Who can't see anything other than anti Bush bull shit.

Why don't you ever complain about England, or China, or France or Russia or India or Pakistan... all have nuclear weapons too.

If you would take the time to vett your sources, instead of parroting every anti semetic, terrorist apologist that comes along, you may learn something new.

Read the books and articles by Benny Morris for yourself instead of what a Palestinian apologist like Justin Raimondo says about them
I suggest these:

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, 1988

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004

1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, 1994

Righteous Victims, a history of the Zionist-Arab Conflict 1881-2001, 1999

1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, 2008

While his work is hated by the Palestinians, his history of the beginnings of the conflict, (that it was the Arabs who were the cause of the Palestinians leaving at the beginning of the '47 conflict, by promising to wipe out Israel), has been backed up by many of the Palestinians involved at the time.

The only ones I hear raving about nukes and nuclear war, are you and morons like the author of the OP.
Israel will not use nukes first. If she ever does it will be in response to another in a long line of attacks, and even then it's unlikely.

Your mindless ranting about issues you know nothing about are getting old and constantly siding with our enemies, while professing to care about our country is a tactic we've all seen before and is transparent.

Dragonslayer, I live in the real world. Your ignorant fear of Bilderburg conspiracies and evil plots are ridiculous and do nothing but show your own fear and paranoia.
Grow some balls.
wardogs
 
wardogs,

WHY is it necessary for the U.S. taxpayers to support Israel (and others, too) to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS per year average, every year for the last -- what -- 40+ years -- since Israel is a sovereign nation, they MUST pay their own way, without U.S. taxpayer handouts, just like nearly every other SOVEREIGN nation.

'Splain it, clearly, logically, factually, objectively -- I have YET to hear a rational argument that answers this simple question in an honest fashion, free of agenda and overt/covert bias.

Don't post lengthy tomes of eye-glazing text, in an attempt to baffle and befuddle -- pre-digest such informations and summarize, with proper references to the sources.

TB2K is a discussion board, where we can all learn from one-another -- are you able step up to the plate on this question, and enlighten the readership?


intothegoodnight
 

Wardogs

Inactive
wardogs,

WHY is it necessary for the U.S. taxpayers to support Israel (and others, too) to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS per year average, every year for the last -- what -- 40+ years -- since Israel is a sovereign nation, they MUST pay their own way, without U.S. taxpayer handouts, just like nearly every other SOVEREIGN nation.

'Splain it, clearly, logically, factually, objectively -- I have YET to hear a rational argument that answers this simple question in an honest fashion, free of agenda and overt/covert bias.

Don't post lengthy tomes of eye-glazing text, in an attempt to baffle and befuddle -- pre-digest such informations and summarize, with proper references to the sources.

TB2K is a discussion board, where we can all learn from one-another -- are you able step up to the plate on this question, and enlighten the readership?


intothegoodnight

Unlike many, not just on this board, but in the world, my support and love for the Israeli people is NOT based on religion or Biblical prophesy. I view Israel as a secular nation and American Ally.
Israel embodies democracy, rule of law, anti-racism, religious freedom, rights for women, gays and Arab and Muslim minorities - Israel is one of the most gender integrated regimes in the world, and has had a female prime minister, a female chief justice, a female foreign minister and leading female military officers.

She is much like we were in our nascent state.

Israel seeks peaceful coexistence while Arabs and Iranians seek to eliminate Israel, as evidenced by their violent actions including terrorism, voting patterns, replies to polls, political rhetoric, media messages, school textbooks, mosque sermons, wall graffiti and much else. Israel is the only country in the world which is regularly slated for extermination.

The debate regarding the solution to the conflict with the Arab Palestinians is an exercise in futility as long they do not end their civil war, choose democracy over tyranny and terror and stop seeking Israel's destruction and Islamic global supremacy. Israel is not the root cause of many problems in the Middle East but is a front line in the Islamo-fascist war against all non-Muslims:
The Islamic Republic of Iran stands with guns pointing at Israel, blood drips from Israel's map

The war directed against Israel is really the global war of fundamentalist tyranny against freedom and democracy. The Arab-Israeli conflict has never been about Palestinian statehood but really about the destruction of the Jews and the only Jewish State on earth. Palestinians have had numerous opportunities for statehood and has rejected them all.

"If the Islamists, Arab states and Iran put down their weapons, there would be no more violence
If Israel puts down her weapons, there would be no more Israel and no more democracy in the ME."

Israel survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a region hostile to liberty and greenery - Freedom and terrorism cannot coexist - 99.5% of U.S. Congress Commends Israeli Democracy

In Arab and Iranian dictators' propaganda there is almost no problem that is not caused by the existence of Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. Most Arab and Muslim states do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Mis perceptions of Israel shape Islamist and Arab strategy.

Israel Builds for Nobel Prizes, Arabs Destroy with Suicide Bombers.

Israel has suffered the largest number of terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11 - Half of the world's major terror groups have anti-Israeli agenda - Fundamentally, Israel is the target of terrorist organizations and despotic regimes precisely because of its virtues:

Oasis of freedom in a desert of Arab and Iranian tyranny

Oasis of independent judiciary in a desert of Arab and Iranian arbitrariness and Sha'ria Law.

Oasis of religious rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian religious persecution: at the same time as Christians are fleeing the Palestinian Autonomy Israel's Christian population is increasing

Oasis of women rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian discrimination against women: the most sexist regimes in the world are Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority.

I have lived and worked with the Israeli people for several years now, walked in their shoes, patrolled with her soldiers and lived with their fears.

She would not need our support if others were not committed fanatically to her destruction. Without it, she would perish.

Much better to ask why we support her enemies as well. (Egypt receives almost as much from us. We arm the "security forces" that attack her daily, as well as aid to the Palestinian leadership, that never leads, but instead uses it's own people as pawns for their mad god and their own goals and enrichment).

This is a situation where being neutral is the same as acquiescing to evil and the destruction of a proud, free people.

As to "proper references to the sources", My source is the human heart and an understanding of good and evil, right and wrong.
For those who measure such things in monetary terms.... no explanation will suffice. You either understand, or you don't.
wardogs
 

USDA

Veteran Member
Actually the Palistiniens...sound like the Polish Jews of the Warsaw ghettos...everything those imprisoned Jews did...in trying to better their situation or to escape it altogether just sounds like a repeat of what the Jews themselves had done decades earlier.

To the Germans everything the Polish Jews tried to do...would be illegal...the Jews violated every law the German's laid down.

Histroy also shows that the top Germans did everything legally according to their own courts...but many were hung by other nations who did not agree.

Passing a law to permit murder...might set well locally...but might be considered crimes against humanity by others.
 

Wardogs

Inactive
Actually the Palistiniens...sound like the Polish Jews of the Warsaw ghettos...everything those imprisoned Jews did...in trying to better their situation or to escape it altogether just sounds like a repeat of what the Jews themselves had done decades earlier.

To the Germans everything the Polish Jews tried to do...would be illegal...the Jews violated every law the German's laid down.

Histroy also shows that the top Germans did everything legally according to their own courts...but many were hung by other nations who did not agree.

Passing a law to permit murder...might set well locally...but might be considered crimes against humanity by others.

What the hell are you babbling about?
Are you seriously comparing the Palestinians to the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto???
The Warsaw Jews fired daily rockets into Poland? Carried out suicide bombings? Declared their intent to destroy Poland?

You don't have to go back in History, just look at the present "cease fire" of the past few weeks. The Gazan's have used this time to fortify Gaza, re-arm, booby trap their streets and homes, while STILL firing rockets and mortars into Sderot. When did the Warsaw Jews do anything even remotely similar to the Intifadas of the Palestinians? What "law to permit murder" has Israel passed. The Hamas charter permits it, not Israel.

The government of Israel is the only one in the Middle East that is elected by free citizens -- including Arabs and Muslims: Israel is a free, Western country, which recognizes the individual rights of its citizens (such as their right to liberty and freedom of speech). It uses military force only in self-defense. The enemies of Israel, by contrast, are state sponsored and funded terrorist organizations and dictatorships. They do not recognize the individual rights of their own subjects, much less those of the citizens of Israel. They initiate force indiscriminately in order to retain and expand their power.

Israel's achievements are vast and have no parallel in any other country of comparable size or age. They have been reached against an unremitting threat of violence, war, terror and delegitimization that might have defeated any lesser people. In almost every sphere – economic development, technology, integration of immigrants and the maintenance of democracy – Israel should today be internationally heralded as a model for others to emulate. The Palestinians have done what?

Above all, Israel has pursued peace. In a mere 10 years it made a cognitive leap for which it would be hard to find a precedent. The "peace process" whose main watchword is "territories for peace", involves a paradox whereby a minuscule democracy is being forced to provide its totalitarian enemies - scores of times its size - the only thing it lacks: territory. In exchange, the surrounding tyrannies are being asked to provide the one and only thing that they lack: peace. In 1990 Arafat's PLO was a proscribed terrorist organization.

By 2000 the Israeli prime minister had offered a Palestinian state in the whole of Gaza and 97 per cent of the West Bank, with east Jerusalem as its capital. The Palestinian terrorist regime turned this down and started the present terror war targeting Israeli civilians. The Palestinian terrorist regime does not want a Palestinian state by the side of Israel but one replacing Israel and the destruction of her free society.

The case for Israel should be apparent even to thoroughgoing supporters of the Palestinians. Who else has offered them a genuine future? Egypt? Jordan? Syria? Lebanon? The Gulf States? It takes only a cursory glance at the history of the Middle East to realize that for the most part, neighboring states have ruthlessly exploited the Palestinians for their own ends with callous indifference to the consequences. Israel, alone in the Middle East, has attempted to construct, with and for the Palestinians, a viable and peaceful future - and a Palestinian state.

Israel's strategy of winning Palestinian hearts and minds failed because Israeli carrots could never overcome the intimidation applied by Palestinian terrorist regime's sticks.

Criticism of Israeli policies in a reasonable and informed manner is legitimate and something that Israelis themselves do on a regular basis, as is the norm in a healthy democracy. Israel is certainly not infallible and makes mistakes - just as all other states have the capacity to do when confronted with the dilemmas that Israel faces in trying to protect its population from terrorist attacks. Israel should be treated by the same standards as any other country in the world and not singled out for special treatment at the hands of those who prefer to ignore genocide and human rights abuses in places such as Darfur, Chechnya, southern Sudan, Tibet and any number of Arab states and Iran.
wardogs
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Morris neither knows nor cares about Iran's alleged nukes. Lurking behind his mundane laundry list of complaints is, I fear, a darker motive: sheer bloodlust. Morris simply wants to kill as many Muslims as possible, so why doesn't he just come out and say it? After all, it isn't like he hasn't said it before:

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide – the annihilation of your people – I prefer ethnic cleansing."

Both sides are guilty of this particular sentiment. The Islamists want to kill as many of the "infedels" as possible and care not for the innocents which they propose to murder. And yet many of us who supposedly are Christian and moralists wish to do the very same thing to all muslims....caring not if the innocent men, women and children get in the way and care not that a nuclear intervention would doom many people on both sides to mass die off's from radiation poisoning and starvation.

Surely the words of Jesus Christ ring more true now than ever before....

MT24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

MT24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:"

I actually have little problem with the muslims and islamics. They live in darkness and serve a dark lord so of course they have the murder and bloodlust in their hearts. They are doing the works of their father.

I am much more concerned about those who say they follow Christ and appear to have the same lust for war and destruction towards the muslims that many of the muslims have towards us. Might not be a bad idea to check out which father is being served...
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
its about time the jews and muslims made up and became friendly, Obama's the man to pull them together, like Carter :hugs:

bet thats what he thinks
 

TECH32

Inactive
wardogs,

WHY is it necessary for the U.S. taxpayers to support Israel (and others, too) to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS per year average, every year for the last -- what -- 40+ years -- since Israel is a sovereign nation, they MUST pay their own way, without U.S. taxpayer handouts, just like nearly every other SOVEREIGN nation.

'Splain it, clearly, logically, factually, objectively -- I have YET to hear a rational argument that answers this simple question in an honest fashion, free of agenda and overt/covert bias.

intothegoodnight

As I pointed out a few weeks ago, the US signed an Agreement (otherwise known as a Treaty) with Israel promising them money in return for their turning over land to Egypt. WE asked them to do this and WE promised them money in return, and, as is so often left out of these discussions, we promised, and pay, money to Egypt as well.

America benefitted from that arragement (no war with Egypt == lower oil prices) and now we must honor it. Is that rational enough for you? Is that clear enough for you? Is that objectively factual enough for you?

There is ALSO the issue of helping another nation who shares a common enemy with us. Lest we forget, America would NOT exist today were it not for the help of the French in gaining our independance.

Israel is not perfect, no nation is, but it is far and away the best ally we could hope for in that part of the world.
 

D_el

Veteran Member
Unlike many, not just on this board, but in the world, my support and love for the Israeli people is NOT based on religion or Biblical prophesy. I view Israel as a secular nation and American Ally.
Israel embodies democracy, rule of law, anti-racism, religious freedom, rights for women, gays and Arab and Muslim minorities - Israel is one of the most gender integrated regimes in the world, and has had a female prime minister, a female chief justice, a female foreign minister and leading female military officers.

She is much like we were in our nascent state.

Israel seeks peaceful coexistence while Arabs and Iranians seek to eliminate Israel, as evidenced by their violent actions including terrorism, voting patterns, replies to polls, political rhetoric, media messages, school textbooks, mosque sermons, wall graffiti and much else. Israel is the only country in the world which is regularly slated for extermination.

The debate regarding the solution to the conflict with the Arab Palestinians is an exercise in futility as long they do not end their civil war, choose democracy over tyranny and terror and stop seeking Israel's destruction and Islamic global supremacy. Israel is not the root cause of many problems in the Middle East but is a front line in the Islamo-fascist war against all non-Muslims:
The Islamic Republic of Iran stands with guns pointing at Israel, blood drips from Israel's map

The war directed against Israel is really the global war of fundamentalist tyranny against freedom and democracy. The Arab-Israeli conflict has never been about Palestinian statehood but really about the destruction of the Jews and the only Jewish State on earth. Palestinians have had numerous opportunities for statehood and has rejected them all.

"If the Islamists, Arab states and Iran put down their weapons, there would be no more violence
If Israel puts down her weapons, there would be no more Israel and no more democracy in the ME."

Israel survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a region hostile to liberty and greenery - Freedom and terrorism cannot coexist - 99.5% of U.S. Congress Commends Israeli Democracy

In Arab and Iranian dictators' propaganda there is almost no problem that is not caused by the existence of Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. Most Arab and Muslim states do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Mis perceptions of Israel shape Islamist and Arab strategy.

Israel Builds for Nobel Prizes, Arabs Destroy with Suicide Bombers.

Israel has suffered the largest number of terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11 - Half of the world's major terror groups have anti-Israeli agenda - Fundamentally, Israel is the target of terrorist organizations and despotic regimes precisely because of its virtues:

Oasis of freedom in a desert of Arab and Iranian tyranny

Oasis of independent judiciary in a desert of Arab and Iranian arbitrariness and Sha'ria Law.

Oasis of religious rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian religious persecution: at the same time as Christians are fleeing the Palestinian Autonomy Israel's Christian population is increasing

Oasis of women rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian discrimination against women: the most sexist regimes in the world are Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority.

I have lived and worked with the Israeli people for several years now, walked in their shoes, patrolled with her soldiers and lived with their fears.

She would not need our support if others were not committed fanatically to her destruction. Without it, she would perish.

Much better to ask why we support her enemies as well. (Egypt receives almost as much from us. We arm the "security forces" that attack her daily, as well as aid to the Palestinian leadership, that never leads, but instead uses it's own people as pawns for their mad god and their own goals and enrichment).

This is a situation where being neutral is the same as acquiescing to evil and the destruction of a proud, free people.

As to "proper references to the sources", My source is the human heart and an understanding of good and evil, right and wrong.
For those who measure such things in monetary terms.... no explanation will suffice. You either understand, or you don't.
wardogs



+10

Wardogs, that's the most profound and excellent statement I have seen in print on TB2K in my history here. You've summed it up nicely.
Thank you sir.
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
WMD

You don't give a retard a bomb to play with. MAD ONLY works when both parties care about their continued existence. When you have one party who willingly straps bombs to themselves to kill then you don't have rational self protecting thought processes.

Leave Iran Alone?

By David Straiton

June 26, 2008



I guess many people just don't realize the threat that the extreme Muslim religion poses to Western Civilization.



I think it would be horrific to engage in war again Iran.



I think it would be worse not to.



If we'd left well enough alone, where do you think Hitler would have stopped?



If we'd left well enough alone, would there even be a Kuwait right now?



Listen, you don't ignore someone who is campaigning to end your way of life, your very existence.



You don't ignore "Death to America" as political rhetoric.



You don't allow a country where the citizens not only believe what they are chanting but are willing to strap a bomb on themselves and kill themselves along with the enemy.



Do you really want a suicide bomber to have a nuclear bomb?



The principle of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction is one of reason. Country A won't attack Country B because Country B has a weapon that could cause equal or more damage. No one wins.



Guess what?



That does not work when you are dealing with people who allow their extreme views to override the reasoning and rationale that would govern anyone else.



IMHO - If Iran is allowed to obtain Nuclear Weapon(s), then it will be a short time before they employ that weapon, most probably against their stated and sworn enemy, Israel.



What do you think the US response would be to that?



If it's a Democratic President and Congress, probably nothing. We'll just go over there and talk to them.



Possible Opening Statement:



POTUS: "I'm here to establish a diaglog with you so we can negotiate a peaceful settlement."



HeadOfIRAN (HOI): "Allah be praised, Death to America."



POTUS: "We'd really like you to tone down your rhetoric. Back home we still have a few Republicans in Congress and they are clamoring for action."



HOI: "Infidel, You're next!"



POTUS: "You have to give me something to work with."



HOI: "When we complete the second bomb, we're coming for you."



POTUS back home at a news conference



POTUS: "Everything is okay. In exchange for lifting all sanctions they've agreed to postpone any aggression and to let things settle down. Oh, and we're going to rebuild the country's entire Infrastructure at a cost of ten trillion dollars. We'll recoup that cost by added taxes on the few rich people that are left in this country as well as increasing taxes across the board on just about everything."
 
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FREEBIRD

Has No Life - Lives on TB
"There is NOTHING glorious about nuclear war."
__________________
Agreeing with that statement doesn't make anyone "anti-Israel" or foolishly oblivious to the threat from Iran.
 

kozanne

Inactive
"There is NOTHING glorious about nuclear war."
__________________
Agreeing with that statement doesn't make anyone "anti-Israel" or foolishly oblivious to the threat from Iran.

Absolutely true.

And I get a real bang out of these folks that think anyone who doesn't agree with them are slavering warmongers with long fangs, waiting for the gleeful thrill of someone else's death and destruction. Too much television, I think.
 

kozanne

Inactive
We'll recoup that cost by added taxes on the few rich people that are left in this country as well as increasing taxes across the board on just about everything."

Including that global poverty act tax bill Oblahma is pushing thru the Senate right now. America will be redeemed, we'll not only support Israel, we'll get a tax levied on us to fund all the nations where people live on less than $1/day. Isn't that wonderful? Now please, let's all sing Kumbaya and be friends.

Kaboom.
 
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