The children of the FLDS group....

Firebird

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I am not Mormon and I do not support polygamy, but something about this whole FLDS raid stinks. Now all of the children 5 and older have been taken to a sports stadium and parents have no contact with them. Have they released any substantiated charges against these mothers yet? Just wondering since complete removal of the kids with no contact is pretty harsh.

Also, we had Ruby Ridge, Waco and now the FLDS group. One thing I will always rember my dad saying was "Ruby Ridge was a test run" and he is not a conspiracy guy nor suspicious of gov't. He said that after the gov't got away with Ruby Ridge with no public outcry, that we would start to see more and more of this kind of action against people they deem different than the norm. Seems kind of prophetic when I look back at it.

Again, I don't support polygamy or any forced marriage between a minor and an adult male, but how long before the gov't deems Christian teaching as subversive and begins to remove kids from homes that homeschool or are active in churches that the gov't deems not appropriate? There was no outcry for Ruby Ridge or Waco and now FLDS, so it might embolden them to branch out further?

If they have a substantiated charge of abuse of a minor with one particular man can't they arrest that man and prosecute? If the other children are in loving, non-abusive homes, why are they all removed and seperated? Something just doesn't set right deep down with this. Maybe I am totally wrong and maybe I spend too much time on this board to give myself these thoughts. Your thoughts and input is appreciated.
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
The women themselves.....

asked for better living conditions........

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Texas authorities loaded more than 150 children taken from the YFZ Ranch nearly two weeks ago onto buses Monday afternoon, moving them from the cramped conditions they have endured at Fort Concho to the San Angelo Coliseum.

Nearly a dozen large charter buses loaded with women and children left with police escorts followed by reporters and photographers in their own vehicles. Some of the children waved at reporters as they were driven away.

The Deseret News reported Sunday that the women and children being housed in the historic fort were complaining that illness was sweeping through the group and that there was no privacy.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't try to help.......
 
I feel exactly the same way you do. I got into a pretty good debate with my wife about it, and I understand her point that these young girls SEEM to be raised with one purpose, to be the property of the male church members.

I don't agree with the church on many point's, but what I can't understand is why due process, and a presumption of innocence is denyed for an entire community, not just the individuals accused of wrong doing.

Supposedly some of these men have broken the law, but it is their children who are taken into custody??????

Maybe I'm missing something too.
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
That's a made-up term, Laurane. Sigh.....

"the women themselves" *asked* to be removed from their children to have better living conditions, or for better living conditions for themselves *with* their children?? Some dyslexia.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
The kids and moms got pulled so the "daddies" (spit) wouldn't have access to them to do even MORE unspeakable things should their desires trend in that direction.....
 

annieosage

Veteran Member
If I remember correctly, I was watching a news story on this and the police said that they knew what was happening but until someone within the compound complained and called they could not do anything. They had everything in place and the second they got the call they moved.

That is a summary I don't even remember which news show I was watching. But if one of the women or young girls called or several, and complained about how they were being treated then LEO had the obligation to move in.

ETA: I know I may get flamed for this but- If this were just an ordinary couple- no Church involved or anything like that- and the Mom KNEW what the Dad was doing- wouldn't the child be removed from BOTH parents?? Why is this any different. Didn't the Moms KNOW this was wrong?? It is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin but first and foremost these babies and children need to be safe from unspeakable acts being forced upon them
 

Firebird

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This is from an MSNBC article "The state is accusing the sect of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption.
"

Full article here... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24109461/

That is more than protective custody, and not even close to due process.

Is it based on the one 16 year old girl being abused, or do they have proof of all the children being abused?
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
If they hve one that they know of, and a compound of several hundred they do NOT just pull out theopne they know about and leave the rest. THAT would be even more stupid than one could say.

I STILL say that we need to WAIT for the whole story before we go hyperventilating.

Or not. they ARE your breaths and heart beats, spend them as you wish.
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
They are ours to spend as we wish Chuck, yessir. The whole TX CPS was waiting outside the gates, ready to pounce, for "how long" until they got that mystery call? Bullsh_t. They got ready, staged up, and pounced once *CPS* pronounced a phone-call was made. The "phone call" is a crock.
 

annieosage

Veteran Member
This lady was on Anderson Cooper last night. Here is an excerpt from her blog.

Finally, Taking Care of the Innocent Victims

I am grateful today to so many individuals and groups. Thank you to the State of Texas and the city of El Dorado for having the guts to go in and intervene in behalf of the children of YFZ.

For too long, government has turned a blind eye to the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and its activities. Abuse to children inside this destructive group has gone on for years without any repercussions.

Many of us feared that the raid would go down poorly as in the 1953 raid on Shortcreek, but El Dorado authorities continue to handle it well. I wish that Arizona and Utah would step up and do the same.

I also am grateful to the women who have come forward. People like Elissa and Teresa Wahl and this young girl from inside the YFZ compound deserve our praise. Others who have been a voice for the children—women such as Flora Jessop, Susan Schmidt, Carolyn Jessop, Linda, Elaine, Lori, Doris…so many more who have stepped forward…all of these deserve our applause not our criticism.

Thank you all for speaking out for the kids.

In my opinion, the FLDS is a criminal organization masquerading as a religion.

Our founding fathers intended for us to have freedom of religion but not outside the laws of the land. Freedom of religion should never mean freedom to abuse.

The FLDS is an organized group whose crimes — often against children — include rape, incest, sodomy, assault and battery. It must be stopped—not “sweetly” swept aside as freedom of religion.

The core issue here is not polygamy — I, by no means support polygamy. It is the habitual abuse of innocent underage victims. The time has arrived to take care of these innocent victims.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/11/finally-taking-care-of-the-innocent-victims/
 

oops

Veteran Member
Our founding fathers intended for us to have freedom of religion but not outside the laws of the land. Freedom of religion should never mean freedom to abuse.


I hope n pray some folks wake up and realize just what that particular line means...somehow though...going by the posts I've seen so far on these threads about this raid...we're gona get exactly what everyone wants...history not learned WILL be repeated...unfortunately for the rest of us...

Oops
 

NC Susan

Deceased
What Does God Say About Polygamy?

What Does God Say About Polygamy?
April 14, 2008 | From theTrumpet.com
By Brandon Nice
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=5020.3304.0.0


Every once in a while, our evening news onslaught of Middle East clashes and political wrangling is interrupted by a strangely disconcerting tale of a polygamist running the lives of dozens of wives and children. Recently it was Warren Jeffs, who held almost 150 women and children in a Texas ranch in polygamous relationships. But polygamy can’t be shoved off into the religious offshoots of Mormonism in the West anymore.


Islam, the fastest growing religion on the planet, promotes polygamy.



Authorities are concerned that instead of decreasing, polygamous marriages are on the rise.



Some people use biblical examples to justify the practice. Is this a problem? Is the government right to ban polygamy? Is it really that harmful? Did God’s leaders really have plural wives in the Old Testament?


Shockingly, the answer to all of these questions is yes! Some of the greatest known men in the Bible had multiple wives. Abraham and David both had multiple wives. Does that mean God condones polygamy? Absolutely not! God never once accepted and absolutely never commanded polygamy. In every case where polygamy was involved, men were punished for their disobedience to God’s marriage laws.


In an article titled “Here’s the Plain truth About Old Testament Polygamy,” Herbert W. Armstrong wrote, “There was polygamy in ancient Israel. But it was sin! God condemned it—He never condoned or sanctioned it” (Plain Truth, October 1963).


If we examine the fruits, as Christ commanded, we can see that not one of these plural marriages worked out well. These were great men, but they did make mistakes, mistakes that were recorded for “our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come” (1 Corinthians 10:11).


Take Abraham, for example. His wife could not bear a son, though God had promised Abraham he would have one. Instead of simply continuing on and trusting God, Abraham and Sarah reasoned that Hagar should bear a child for Abraham. Hagar successfully conceived, yet this only brought more trouble into their lives. In addition to the intense jealousy the situation provoked in Sarah, God did not accept Ishmael (Hagar’s son) as the heir to the promises of Abraham. Later, God ordered Abraham to send Hagar away. After the birth of Isaac, Abraham had no more concubines—it wasn’t until after Sarah’s death that Abraham took another wife.


Abraham’s son Isaac had only one wife, Rebekah. Jacob was a bit more complicated, marrying Leah and then Rachel due to his father-in-law’s scheming. After his conversion in Genesis 32, however, Jacob ceased living in polygamy.
The most righteous king of Israel, David, had more than one wife. This disobeyed the direct command from God for kings not to multiply wives in Deuteronomy 17:17. David already had wives, and then took another, Uriah the Hittite’s wife, as his own after having Uriah killed. Because of this action, God said “the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife” (2 Samuel 12:9-12). Mr. Armstrong wrote, “This was a tremendous, super sin. God was meting out tremendous superpunishment” (ibid.). Later, David’s wives were defiled publicly except for Bathsheba. David was only saved from death because of his incredibly repentant attitude.


David had to flee Jerusalem because of the civil war that his actions had started. When he returned, the first thing he did was put away all his other wives and concubines. After severe punishment from God, David had realized the error of his sins and repented of them. He remained married to only one woman for the rest of his rule.


Solomon started out right, but by the end had 700 wives and 300 concubines. What did God say? “For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father” (1 Kings 11:4).
There are other accounts of men having more than one wife, but close examination shows little happiness in these arrangements, and that God did not accept these marriages.


The misunderstanding about polygamy stems from a misunderstanding about the marriage relationship. Christ said, in Matthew 19:4-6, that God ordained marriage between man and wife (singular) “from the beginning.” God never intended men to marry more than one wife. The first man said to have more than one wife in the Bible was Lamech, a murderer and man of the most degenerate kind of evil. “God made one wife for Adam—not a harem!” Mr. Armstrong wrote. “He started the human family out as He ordained they should go—a family of one man and one wife! … God did not condone polygamy! He punished those who practiced it! It was always sin! It is sin today!” (ibid.).


In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul reinforced God’s disapproval of polygamy in 1 Timothy 3:2: “A bishop, must be blameless, the husband of one wife.” One of the qualifications for a minister in God’s Church is that he have only one wife. No polygamist may be a minister in God’s Church.


Revelation 19:7 speaks of Christ returning to marry His Church, and His wife (singular) will be made ready. Christ will only marry the one Bride, not many different ones! This is why sins like polygamy are so grievous to God—because they demean the relationship He will have with His Church! The special relationship between husband and wife is to reflect the wonderful intimacy between Christ and His Bride, the Church. God condemned, and does to this day, polygamy because of this. However, God has blessed the institution of marriage between one husband and one wife as a God-plane relationship. For more on God’s plan for marriage, read our booklet Why Marriage! Soon Obsolete?
 

momof23goats

Deceased
then why didn't they remove the dads? this makes no snese at all. and they are going to put these kids up for adoption. we aren't talking about kittens here, we are talking about children. this is a very sad week for Texas, indeed , sad.
do they have any idea what they are doing to these children? one would think this was not america where this is happening.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
What official said that they were going to adopt out the kids, please???

I'm involved in a discussion and i REALLY need to know who said this....
 
it's on the other thread, chuck.

mom - in what other sex abuse case would they let mothers who actively participated, ie. married off their daughters and accepted younger 'sister wives' into the household, retain custody of the kids? They will be charged as accessories to the crime, I imagine.
 

theoriginaldeb

Still A Geology Fanatic
Our founding fathers intended for us to have freedom of religion but not outside the laws of the land. Freedom of religion should never mean freedom to abuse.

I hope n pray some folks wake up and realize just what that particular line means...somehow though...going by the posts I've seen so far on these threads about this raid...we're gonna get exactly what everyone wants...history not learned WILL be repeated...unfortunately for the rest of us...

Oops

Not only is the above true...but did any one else see the pictures of these children sleeping on the floor in that gym? Or am I just being picky about the quality of their care at the hands of the state of Texas?
Define persecution please...
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Several of the articles I've read on this forum and others, taken from newspapers had this jerk saying the word "Adopt." That is what really got me going because it is far to early to be talking about such things. This person may have mis-spoke, if so the State of Texas should make this clear. Foster care may be a solution for some, but adoption should not even be considered until a court has terminated all parental rights (even the mothers, grandparents etc) and in each of thd 400 cases that could take years.

I'm not really awake yet, so I don't have links, but just look at some of the other threads. If someone else can post a link between threads that would be great.

Melodi
Who in no way excuses child abuse but also thinks that Texas CPS is making things a million times worse. There will be no winners here.
 

cdwarior

Senior Member
In the end the motives for the raid will be painfully obvious by what happens to the 1,900 acres the compound sits on. Maybe a casino or upscale housing development. This property is out of the revenue stream at this point. After all, FLDS doesn't grow pot or cook meth so child abuse is the fulcrum of eminent domain. Time will tell.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Read CPS' homepage. They're already thanking people for inquiries and urging them to apply to be foster parents.

Bastards.

Nothing in scripture forbids polygamy. The practice was actually halted by the Romans. Martin Luther, the founder of my church, quietly married a man to his wife's sister after all three parties came to him and requested it. The sister was a widow and the husband was willing to take responsibility for her and her children. They wanted the marriage so that her kids would have equal ranking under the law with his.

People should be able to marry anyone they want to so long as ALL INVOLVED PARTIES ARE OF AGE and give FREE CONSENT.
 

Garand

Veteran Member
Man...on CNN yesterday this mother was saying that her children had never seen a gun until they were putting the children on buses and waving it in their faces.

And one simple phone call from a teenage girl started this whole mess? I doubt it, the gooberment has been wanting to take them down for awhile I bet.
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
LONEWOLF.....

do YOU have inside information that there was no teenage girl and no phone call?? Or is it just a gut feeling with your negative experiences which you feel are prevalent in every court system? You also have a time frame for the length of time the CPS/police were getting ready to "pounce" as you put it. There was more than one phone call you know.

Some people let their biased view of gov./military/CPS/courts color their neutrality, while not waiting to see what happens in the Court this Thursday in San Angelo.

Most of the speculation in the world generally proves to be wrong......(sigh) :rolleyes:

And some of the mothers probably will later be charged with being accessories to abuse. There is an heirarchy in the FLDS and some women want to protect their positions and comfort zones in that system.

There are also children whose identities cannot be confirmed, who may have come from other towns in Utah, AZ or Canada - these need to be taken care of.

And the daddies need to take care of their children, not have the State support them on welfare, as many of these young women are forced to do.

We'll see..........

for the purpose of Investigation of Due Process - just a few words to describe what the authorities are doing.....not legal terminology of course. Caps for emphasis, as some people don't seem to get - Investigation so people can be processed.
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
You don't know "the real story" first-hand, and neither do I. All we *think we know* has been wittnessed from past adventures of the Gov't, & the few interviews from FLDS Members. Lots of speculation. And, I might add, plenty of un-Constitutional actions & blatant speculation by all the TX authorities, and much running off at the mouth by TX CPS Representitives. We're all anxious for "the truth", but it has not been forthcoming. That's the modern pattern of Gov't. Hence the cynicism.
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
I agree that govs.....

can be heavy handed......but they have known about this compound for a long time......citizens have asked for investigations into its people and the State of TX probably has had a plan in place for when it did get around to investigate.

Probably will happen in Pringle, South Dakota at some point too..........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
South Dakota FLDS camp spurs suspicion
The Rapid City Journal, SD, USA
Sep. 29, 2007
Steve Miller
www.rapidcityjournal.com


The people occupying a secretive and growing compound southwest of Pringle are practicing polygamy and are likely conducting under-age marriages, say two former members of the sect led by Warren Jeffs, who was convicted last week of rape as an accessory.

Jeffs is the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in the twin border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. He was convicted of the rape as an accessory charge last week in Utah, and faces similar charges in Arizona.

Jeffs was a fugitive for several years and was suspected to have hidden for a time at the compound about 12 miles southwest of Pringle in the southern Black Hills.

FLDS

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a sect of Mormonism. Mormonism in turn is a cult of Christianity.

The FLDS is also considered to be a cult of Christianity. Sociologically,the group is a high-control cult.
....(author needs to do a bit more research on this :whistle: )

The people in the compound, who consider Jeffs their prophet, are practicing polygamy, which is a central tenet of the FLDS church, according to Isaac Wyler of Colorado City, an ex-FLDS member.

“That’s a no-brainer,” Wyler said of the polygamy question. “I know they’re practicing illegal, under-age marriages in there because they can get away with it. Warren has received revelations from God that he’s supposed to be marrying these girls at young ages. He would have to have a completely new revelation for that to change.”

The Journal has not been able to contact members of the compound.

Jeffs likely took refuge at the Pringle compound at some point during the years he was a fugitive, Wyler said, although he probably spent most of his time on the road.

Wyler said FLDS members in Hildale-Colorado City, as well as compounds elsewhere in the country, follow Jeffs’ teachings. Wyler said Jeffs excommunicated him, along with 19 other leaders of Colorado City-Hildale, in 2004.

Jane Blackmore, a former FLDS member from Canada who visited the Pringle compound in August in an unsuccessful attempt to see her daughter and grandchildren also said she believes the compound members are practicing polygamy.

Blackmore of Creston, British Columbia, said she can’t be certain whether the secretive compound is practicing polygamy and under-age marriage. “From the history and the past, I believe they’re still practicing both,” Blackmore said.

Blackmore, accompanied by other family members, went to the compound on Aug. 25 in an attempt to visit her daughter, Suzie Johnson, and her grandchildren, but she was turned away by several FLDS men, Blackmore said.

The compound members called the Custer County Sheriff’s Office and a deputy arrived and told them they had to leave because the compound is private property.



Blackmore said she recognized some of the men as FLDS leaders from Colorado City, even though they were wearing wigs.

Custer County Sheriff Rick Wheeler has said nobody has filed a complaint that compound members are practicing polygamy or are breaking any other laws.

Wheeler and other county officials say the compound has, in fact, met every county requirement, including building permits.

Wheeler said the compound, established about five years ago, continues to expand. He says the compound has 15-20 structures on about 140 acres and is now drilling a well. He estimates the compound could hold 75 to 100 people.

Another FLDS compound, near Eldorado, Texas, also has grown rapidly.

“It looks like to me they’re taking people out of Hildale and Colorado City and putting them into these two areas,” Wheeler said.

Bruce Wisan, a court-appointed Utah official assigned to oversee the FLDS financial arm, the United Effort Plan, said he suspects some residents of the Hildale-Colorado City community are moving out to other areas.

“The instructions that Warren has given to people are not to reveal it to anybody. All this happens late at night,” Wisan said. “I’ve heard from one source that there was a tape that they insert in the car as they’re driving away telling them where they’re driving to and why. Everything is secret.”

Sheriff Wheeler said the only complaints he has received about the Pringle compound are about noise from the constant construction work, which often goes far into the night.

Bob and Deb Hadlock live nearby in the scenic area above Red Canyon in far southern Custer County. The Hadlocks say they’re fed up with the construction noise at night and have begun to complain to the compound leaders and the local authorities. “They wake me up all hours of the night,” Bob Hadlock said. “It’s just finally gone too far.” He said semi-trailers arrive at all hours of the day and night. “It’s ridiculous what comes in here after dark.”

Hadlock says that in addition to the surface structures, he believes the compound members are building something underground. “You look at the dirt that they got piled above ground. You tell me where it comes from, if they’re not going under.”

The compound has also built a watchtower near the entrance. Wheeler said he has seen men in the watchtower but that he doesn’t know whether they are armed.

Six children at the compound have been registered this year for home schooling with the Custer School District, the same number as last year, according to superintendent of schools Tim Creal. Creal said the children underwent testing last year, but he has not yet seen the test results.

Wisan said Friday that the compounds are probably being financed by contributions that FLDS members funnel to Jeffs and other church leaders.

Blackmore, meanwhile, continues to worry about her daughter, who she last saw in March on a visit in Rapid City supervised by her daughter’s husband. Suzie, 26, was due to have a baby about a month ago. “I’m concerned she didn’t get proper medical care,” Blackmore said

She voiced her concerns in August to Ben Johnson. “He said God is taking care of them.”

Johnson also told her that her daughter was living at the Pringle compound by choice. “I said, you know, the fence and the watchtower, they give me a different message.”
 

oops

Veteran Member
Not only is the above true...but did any one else see the pictures of these children sleeping on the floor in that gym? Or am I just being picky about the quality of their care at the hands of the state of Texas?
Define persecution please...


Nope...you're not the only one that has problems that and with all of the rest of this...I dislike a lot of the things I'm seeing and hearing regarding this...some stunts are so predictable as to be scripted in this...but there seems to be a lot of ppl that cant look past their own religious beliefs to see just how legal precidence IS being set and just how that precidence can and will be twisted in later use...but ...that's ok...folks'll learn when it IS applied to them...

Oops
 
Top