Pumping water with diesel or alternative fuels

JohnGaltfla

#NeverTrump
David,

I hate to provide a false answer as I've never lived in cold climates! I'm a Floridian by birth, redneck Southerner by the grace of God.

I'm more worried about going to the well and getting bit by a water moc or gator than it freezing.

:conf:
 

Kimber

Membership Revoked
John,

But . . . you very well could. We are also overdue for an ice age. Trust no-one over thirty. (Yes, that's all of us.) Back up plans could be important. Check out Robert Felix's web sites if all you are concerned about is global warming.

Ice ages are far more common. And, they were once a concern.

David
 

JohnGaltfla

#NeverTrump
Kimber said:
John,

But . . . you very well could. We are also overdue for an ice age. Trust no-one over thirty. (Yes, that's all of us.) Back up plans could be important. Check out Robert Felix's web sites if all you are concerned about is global warming.

Ice ages are far more common. And, they were once a concern.

David


LOL, well, at least muh beers won't get warm if that happens! :D
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Come on folks! How many of you have ever seen or worked with a 3.5 HP water cooled diesel engine? Be honest. Ask some questions and make your presence felt.
 

Buckshot

Inactive
Ok Max here is your questions.

1. Engine is rated 20,000 hours how long are the injector rated for?
2. Is there a way to clean the injector?
3. One of your pictures of the engine on the left side top it appears the engine coolant area is open does rain top it off?
4. During break in period it is common to go thru a lot of oil post how much oil you are using and let us know when the engine is seal up.
5. Instead of direct drive to a water pump why didn't you buy a DC water pump get a HD alternator and wire it in?
6. Seems to me it would be easier if you could use a regular car alternator, you can get plenty of those at any junk yard? Not sure of the speed and amp output needed but did you check into that?
7. Just wondering why you are reinventing the wheel going direct drive?
 

ofuzzy1

Just Visiting
Max,

How much did it cost delivered? [just re-read the top] $400 delivered.

How much heat does it put out?
i.e. Can you do axuillary heating? Water heating / house heating?

How much nosie does it make?
Can you bolt a better muffler to it?

I do agree with Buchshot in the alternator question.
Heck you could use a big capacitor [old car battery would be better] and an inverter to run your electric pump.

Did you know you can run an Inductive [brushless] electirc motor as an alternator, you just need to goose it with some juice as it is spinning and it must be spun near it's rated rpm to get a good output [kinda like the ST gennys]. When you goose it you must have a BIG diode in series with the battery to avoid voer voltage and reverse voltage feeding back.
 
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MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Sorry I didn't get back to this yesterday. My back was killing me and I had to get horizontal. I wound up going to sleep and slept right through till this morning. I need some good drugs but am too hard headed to go to the doc. Anyway, to your questions Buckshot and Ofuzzy1.

For Buckshot:
#1. I don't know how long the injector is rated for. But since it's a mechanical injector I'm assuming that's part of the 20,000 hour claim. The problem is that these engines haven't been coming into the U.S. for that many years yet so that information may not be available yet. I'll have to ask Joel the next time I talk to him to see what he says about it.

#2. Again, I don't know about cleaning the injector. That will come with experience and there's nothing in the booklet about it. Another question for Joel.

#3. Yes, the hooper cooling system is an open system with a floating indicator to tell you when it's getting low. If you leave the engine exposed to the elements, any rain will top it off. However, you have to drain the tank any time the weather gets below freezing or you take the chance of cracking the cooling jacket just like in a vehicle with no antifreeze. They say that the hopper cooling system is very efficient and during my 2 hour trial run the water was definately hot enough to put off steam, although it never reached the boiling point as far as I could tell.

#4. I'm sure this little engine will use some oil during break-in but I'm not sure how much. I believe that's why the booklet calls for a minimum of 50 hours of break-in time with no load. I'll be doing the break-in run as I get time and will check the oil regularly and report my findings about how much it uses and when/if the consumption slows down.

#5. Because I want to keep this little water pump as simple as possible with as few moving parts as possible. The more involved any little project like this is, the more there is to go wrong. Ask me how I know. And it's not hooked up direct drive, as you can see in the pics PW. I had to re-invent the driveshaft/pulley setup and drive the pump with that for a direction change to the input of the pump. Yes, I wanted to drive it directly from the end of the crankshaft/flywheel but it didn't work out that way.

#6. How would using an alternator make it easier? Enquiring minds want to know. :D

#7. It's not direct drive. It's secondary drive through a belt.

For Ofuzzy1:

#1. The total wound up being $300 for the engine and $100 for the freight charge.

#2. I don't believe this little engine would be very useful at producing a great amount of hot water, but it would really depend on how many hours a day you ran it and where it's located. I'm sure I can make a metal plate to replace that plastic outfit and run two hoses to it and install a radiator for extended run times. But since I'm only going to run this thing when I need to pump water up the hill (about 2 - 3 hours a day) I don't see any need to go to the trouble right now. When I ran that engine for 2 hours, the water didn't go down enough to notice and that told me all I need to know. I'm sure it will put out more heat while it's breaking in so I expect it to run somewhat cooler after the break-in is finished.

#3. It's pretty noisy right now because it's not tied down solidly to the ground. I expect the noise to reduce a great deal when I get it installed in it's final resting place. I still don't know how I'm going to do that but it'll come to me. As to the muffler, it's quite ingenious. When I was looking it over I discovered a wingnut and stud on top of the chrome plated muffler assembly. I think you can see it in one of the pics. Anyway, you loosen that wingnut and the whole top section spins so you can direct the exhaust in any direction of the compass you want to. Cool, huh? And actually, the exhaust noise is really very quiet compared to the diesel knocking. Once that knocking is attenuated into the ground I expect it to operate fairly quietly. I have my fingers crossed anyway. But I plan on building a cinder block pump house for it and will insulate the inside block spaces with that expandable spray in foam if I can afford it. Otherwise I'll fill those spaces with cedar sawdust or vermiculite/pearlite.

#4. I dissagree. The deep well pump I have now is a 220 volt AC model and it pulls 7.5 amps shile it's running. That will work that little 3.5 diesel too hard and consume a great deal more fuel. That's why I want to bypass that big well pump in the first place. I can do the job with much less effort and energy doing it the way I'm planning. Unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

#5. Yes, I knew about that trick but I don't know enough to do it without a college edumacation. It seems to me that you can get about 90% output of the rated input when everything is working right. I'll have to look into that because I have a real nice Baldor gearmotor that should work nicely for that. But right now I just want to get the water pump going and don't have time for fun projects like that. Like I said, I'll probabaly buy another of these small diesels (the 6.5 HP model) to use for auxilliary power projects. Or I might just save my pennies and buy a lister with an ST gen head and be done with it. So to speak.

Thanks for all the question and keep them coming! We'll all learn more from my little experiment by seeing and thinking about all these questions. This is a great learning experience for me and I appreciate your help.
 

Buckshot

Inactive
Ok MR. PW,

How deep is you well? My well is set at 70 feet and 1/2 horse electric pump move all the water I need. So in therory with your 3 1/2 horsepowered engine you are wasting 3 horsepower.

Therefore you should be able to real easy buy a DC water pump that uses I think 17-20 amps. Hook up a car alernator that puts out 65 amps. You only need 20 amps so your engine would be only using at max 1 horsepower. For a diesel engine a load like that is perfect. Then you just wire the pump to the alernator. Simple, place pump in well and pump all the water you will ever need.
 

Brutus

Inactive
Good rundown, Max. Looks like you've got yourself a neat little long-term tinkering project going. :D For mounting the engine, you might try putting some small squares of old conveyor belt material between the engine "foot" and the frame it's being mounted to. Something like some 1/2" to 3/4" thick belt would probably work well. You could also use several thicknesses of innertube or other plain rubber, but that probably wouldn't hold up as well since the conveyor belt mat'l would have cloth or maybe metal imbedded/bonded into it and that stuff's made to take a lot of abuse.

Sounds like a neat little project you've got going there.

BTW, are you still sawmilling?
 

Brutus

Inactive
BTW, where'd you dig up those two old pillow block bearings from? They look like they came off of Yule Givens' hickory nut grinder.

:lol:

:rofl:
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Now I understand what you're saying Mr. PW. But you're forgetting the layout here and the fact that I'm pumping water uphill for a distance of about 1/4 mile with a rise in elevation of about 75 feet. And the majority of my 1,500 feet of waterline is 1 1/2" and 2" diameter PVC pipe. In order to use a DC well pump that would pump water from my 70 foot deep well up to the house (about 75 feet higher elevation) I'd have to buy one of those very expensive DC well pumps that cost anywhere from $1,200 to $1,800 each. This little water pump I bought for $75 is a high pressure, low volume pump and will lift water up to 300 feet vertical head at 170 PSI. It moves 100 gallons per hour at 1,725 RPM with an input of 1/3 HP maximum. That's electric HP and I don't know if there's any difference between engine derived HP and electric motor HP. So in essence, I'm trading water volume for PSI and head pressure at a reduced load on the engine. It's a win/win situation as far as I can tell. But there are still a few things I don't know about this little water pump I bought so time will tell. If it will draw water at least 12 feet from my well head then it will work.

And no, I'm not wasting any HP. I'm just not using the engine to it's fullest potential. But that's a good thing because it will do two positive things for me. The first is reduced fuel useage. The second is increased longevity for that little diesel engine. Less RPM's and less HP demand will decrease the wear and tear on that engine. No, I didn't need a 3.5 HP engine to do this job. But that's the smallest water cooled diesel engine Changfa makes and the only one available in diesel as far as I know. So think about it. Water cooled... low RPM's... low fuel useage... and water up to 170 PSI at 100 gallons per hour. That's all the water I need in order to fill the sand filter tank up here by the house. I'm not going to use this diesel water pump to supply house pressure. I just need it to fill the storage tank twice or three times a day. In a SHTF situation. Ok? Are we on the same wavelength now PW? :D
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Brutus, I'm still in the sawmill bidness but I'm down with a bad back right now and I don't really have customers beating down my door for cedar wood right now anyway. And I found those two old pillow block bearings out in the knife shop. They were part of a line shaft that was run with an old clothes dryer motor that powered a flap wheel sanding wheel for rough work on blades and handles. They've seen a little action but they're still tight as Dick's hatband! And with that pulley in the center between the two bearings they should serve for many more years before I have to replace them. Those two old bearings are probably older than me and are much higher quality than you'd most likely find today. I'll find out just how good they are in short order. Or at least as soon as my back co-operates. My wife walked on it lastnight and it cracked like a pistol shot so I should be on the mend now. I think one of my legs is shorter than the other now but I'll just put a stack of thick leather inside my boot heel and carry on. :D
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
I've done listened to them engines fuzzywuzzy. They sure do purr don't they? :lol: After my little diesel settles down some I'm going to figure out a way to record the sound it makes and post it here. I think the hard core diesel fans will be impressed. I know I am. :D
 

ofuzzy1

Just Visiting
Max here's a link to follow about installing a lister in your garage in suburbia
<http://www.utterpower.com/HarryAnderson.htm>

Some more
<http://www.utterpower.com/jeffm.htm>

And his muffler to keep the neighbors happy.
<http://www.utterpower.com/muffler.htm>

It seems he needs to install some rubber engine mounts to reduce the vibrations.
Any automotive speedshop sells them - Moroso brand has the most flexible [varied configurations] types.

I know of several instances where big clunking equipment was insatlled in a sand pit. The sand kept the machine from shaking the building to bits.

This just may inspire me to go play.
The only problem is my garage is fullup of junk. Time for ebay and dontations!

My loads are:
Misc house stuff 2kw lights & fans, teevee
AC 4kW run 8kW start
Oven / stove ~3500w -- very intermittant use.
Sprinkler and Pool Pumps @ 1.5 hp each ... 3 hp == ~2kw

Water Heater would be run off the waste heat of the engine -- Lots of plumbing.
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Well, this is a genuine Arkansas cobb job I guarantee. I haven't been able to do much with it because of my bad back but today I got out there and mounted that funky pump the best way I could figure so I can test it to see if it's even going to pump water the way I have it worked out. Once I see that it'll work to pump water up the hill I'll fabricate a metal bracket outfit so I can adjust the front and back to move up and down and side to side. Of course, if it works I'll probably leave it just like it is till the cows come home. :D

What I wound up doing was cold forging some 1/4" iron rods into hold down clamps and screwing them into the deck with 3" decking screws to hold that pump in place. It wouldn't have been so bad but that pump is shaped real funny and wasn't designed for this type of mounting. So I just did the best I could on short notice. I put thick leather under the clamps so there wouldn't be metal to metal contact between the clamps and the pump body. Yes, it's kind of rinky dink. But poor folks have poor ways. :lol: For the highly technical vibration dampening base plate I used an old hunk of tire tread and some thin sliced cedar wood for shims to get the pump shaft to the right height for mating with the drive shaft. It just kind of lucked together which is how most of my hair brained schemed things seem to go.

Anyway, now I can dig up my well head and buy the fittings I'll need to try this thing out. I'm going to do it in a way that I'll be able to put everything back pretty much like it was in case this doesn't work out too good. It's all experimental but I really think it will work like gangbusters. I just wanted to post an update so you folks following this could have a chuckle today. Yes, I'm laughing too. But I'm also counting on this to work. Here's the pic of my fantabulous setup just for giggles.
 

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Kimber

Membership Revoked
Max,

Sorry for the question if you mentioned it already above. Are you intending on running it 24/7? Or just when needed to fill up a tank?

David
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Oh yeah, something I forgot to add. No matter how much fiddling I did with the shaft alignment, I just couldn't get it so that the pump doesn't wiggle a little tiny bit. So my plan is to run it without any grease for the first few hours so that flat pump shaft will make its own little sweet spot inside the slot I cut in the drive shaft. Then I'll grease it once the alignment is true and it should be a done deal. It looks good on paper anyway. :D
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
David, I'll just be running it for 2 or 3 hours a day to keep my storage tank at the house full. That's why I feel like I can get away with running it like it is for a good while. Even if the sky falls and the power shuts down for good I'll be able to do my fabricating because of the way my shop is set up. I have a manual floor stand drill press that doesn't need power. And I have hack saws and files to last a lifetime. And if nothing esle works, I have all kinds of hammers and chisels and can always make some more with my forge. This is an experiment whose time has come at my place. I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worse. When I cut that water line by the well head I'll be lucky to keep from drowning from the backwash. Even though I installed a check valve about halfway up the hill there will still be A LOT OF WATER running out of that pipe for a good while. I'm not looking forward to that but there's not much I can do about it either. I have my fingers crossed that this all won't be for nothing. It should work! If not I'll make a dang generator with that little diesel engine and be miles ahead of the competition. :D
 

Kimber

Membership Revoked
Max,

As you know, I'm way out of my league on this stuff. However, check out the following link (would post a pic, but it's pdf, and can't figure out how). The mounting and optional sub base diesel tank seem great for your set up. I don't know if Hardy sells the base and tank separately, but knowing you, you could whip out a home built version of it.

http://www.hardydiesel.com/gen/Perkins.pdf

David
 

Swampthing

Inactive
MaxTheKnife said:
Here's the pic of my fantabulous setup just for giggles.


Wooohoooo....just looking at it..... it's the same shade of blue as viagra and it has the same affect!!! ! I don't think I could take hearing it!!!!
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
No, I don't need all that stuff David. In fact, I plan to time this little diesel and find out how long it runs on a quarter pint of diesel under a small (tiny) load. My plan is to figure out how much fuel it takes to run it for an hour and carry that with me and fire up that engine with just enough fuel to run for an hour. That way I can go off and leave it without worrying about an overpressure or overflow problem. So I don't need a large fuel tank for this rig. Sure, it'll be kind of a pain in the butt. But once it becomes part of my daily routine I won't give it a second thought. At least, that's the way I look at it.
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Well, it works! You can pump water though your existing deep well pump. I did and so can you! I'm really pumped about this. It open lots of doors for easy ways around pumping solutions. It works. It really does. Well, I guess that's it for now.
 

Renegade

Inactive
Max,
Do you know if that engine can be ordered with a standard 540 coupling instead of the vbelt pulleys?
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Sorry about that. That was kind of a hit and run thing and that's all I had time to say right then. I haven't started on my diesel pump project yet but just finished changing out my sand filter pump at the house. That's how I discovered that you can draw water passively through a standard deep well submersible pump. What I wound up doing is changing actually just adding a small shallow well pump to the system without changing a thing accept pipe routing. I had originally decided to install the pump first, then remove the submersible pump and install 1" pvc and a foot valve in the water tank. But after I installed the small shallow well pump I decided to see if I could get water to flow passively through the submersible pump in the water tank. That's when I discovered a flaw in my brilliant plan. :lol: I hadn't installed a fitting to enable me to prime that shallow well pump. Hmmm... So, being the rocket scientist I am I decided to see if I could get that submersible pump to do the priming for me. I opened the bleeder faucet and touched the bare wires from the submersible pump to the 120 volt connections on the pressure switch and that dumb 220 volt pump went to pumping water!!! :shkr: :lkick: Yeeeee haaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

So I got the shallow well pump primed and let it take over and everything worked like magic from there. Now if that shallow well pump quits working I can just disconnect the wires from the switch and re-connect the wires from the submersible pump and I'm back in business. I don't know if that submersible will pressurize the water or not but at least it will pump it out into a bucket until I can get the small pump repaired or replaced. I'm so tickled with myself I think I'll take the day off today and just goof off and work on my puter chair butt print. :groucho:

And Renegade, I don't know the answer to your question. You'd have to ask Joel or George about that. I think George has all the associated pieces/parts available for most of the ChangFa diesels but I'm really not sure about this small one. And what'a a 540 coupling anyway? Never heard of it.
 

Renegade

Inactive
Sorry, that was tractor slang....lol...

What is it..like a 1 and 1/8" bore six spline? For hooking up to a tractor pto drive. So that engine could turn a roller pump. Roller pumps have to be primed (most of the time) but they're cheap and you don't have to run the engine long. A $75.00 roller pump will pump 20 gallons a minute.
Just thought it might would make a handly little pump using that engine instead of one of the tractors.
 

MaxTheKnife

Membership Revoked
Well now, if you'd said PTO coupling I would have knowed what you were talking about. 540 coupling... Roller pump... Renegade, you're just full of terms I ain't never heard of. I have an old PTO water pump that mounts directly to the PTO shaft on my little Ford tractor but I've never had occasion to use it. It most likely needs new leathers becasue it's one of them old ones and that leather has been dry for many years. I need to take it apart and have a look see because some day I might actually need to pump some water with that thing.
 

Renegade

Inactive
Roller pumps like I'm talking about doesn't have any leather....just steel balls rolling around in the chamber. Or at least the ones that I have looked at. Maybe this afternoon I can get a pic of the inside of one. My reason for wanting to use them is because I already have a couple, and they're cheap, and the max flow rates are pretty darn high compared to some pumps of the same price.

Kind of a question of do you save more fuel by using a bigger motor (tractor) that's turning a higher flow rate pump so you don't have to run as long? Or maybe even a motor like yours would be the equivilent of an idleing tractor. Even if I only got 5 gallons a minute out of the pump with the smaller motor, that is still pretty darn good (300 gpH)!!


Just some rambling thoughts....
 

Brutus

Inactive
Renegade, it shouldn't be too big of a deal to have an adaptor shaft made up - female to fit over the engine shaft with a male 6 spline welded to it for the pump. If you get to checking around with ag equipment dealers you might even be able to find a factory made adaptor. Also, you might want to check with a mill/industrial supply store. If something like that is available factory-made they could probably find it for you. A major brand name in rigid couplings and adaptors is "Hub City".
 
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