(PREP) What Is Bottom Line On Preps For Possible Bird Flu Pandemic?

There is just so much important info on this possible pandemic! I tried to simplify what I should have in my home just in case. Also, if you hear of it coming close to you what is the best procedure to take?

I read Canada Sues very well written thread and highly recommend it to everyone, but this thread I'd like to keep keep as a thread as to what preps we need to get now and what steps to take if it strikes your area.

There's going to be plenty of people with these questions should it hit and will be too panicky to sift through huge amounts of info.


hansa

Masks- preventive

not so hot- surgical masks, I'd go for these if it was all I could get.
better and good most most situations- N-95 (will cover almost all situations you'd be in fairly well)
even better, majority of N95's with a couple of N100's in case your in situations where real airborne transmission is likely (crowded conditions with poor airflow)

Hand sanitizer-preventive

and lots of it, in various sizes, so you can have them in several rooms, one in your purse/pocket, and plenty of extra. you'll go thru them pretty quick, so buy more than you think you need.

Antibacterial hand soap-preventive

use it well, use it often! Have a couple of bottles for every sink in the house.

Antibacterial wipes-preventive

for disinfecting surfaces-think shopping cart handles, doorknobs, telephone recievers, other hard surfaces touched by the public, and guests in the home. I picked up my first travel pack for my prep shelf today, 99 cents at the checkout counter at Target.

Disinfectant spray-preventive

again, for disinfecting larger surfaces, useful at home, harder to carry, but if this baby hits, carrying a can of Lysol may not get you locked up as paranoid

gloves-preventive

surgical type, I'd keep a bunch-useful for cleaning, caring for the sick, and when you need to go out. The old rubbermaid household cleaning type are hot and hard to wear for long-but can be thrown in the washing machine with bleach or lysol, so having a pair or two of those for a back-up might not be bad. A decent box of medical gloves costs about 15.00 on the shelf today, IIRC, and thats only 50 pair, and they are one use only-so a combination of the disposable and the reusable makes sense to me.

OTC pain and fever reducers- treatment

tylenol and motrin most common, avoid aspirin in any viral illness-it can lead to Reyes syndrome. although there is some point in allowing a fever to continue to decrease viral replicationn, theres also significant danger of seizure and dehydration for prologed fever, especially in the frail, elderly and kids. Even if you dont think you'd use 'em, I'd have em just in case you get into a situation where fever runs too high, too long. They may be hard to find if you change your mind.

paper goods-preventive

if illness in the house, using paper and disposable dishes and silverware cups etc may help. Paper towels, tissues, etc. Couldnt hurt, and you'll be busy enough not to want to do dishes anyway.

plenty of fluids, electrolyte replacement-treatment

gatorade, pedialyte, etc ginger ale, tea, stuff you know you prefer when sick. other stuff thats easy to tolerate, like custards, jello, crackers, etc.

vitamins, preventive, treatment

at a minimum, ester C and a good multivit. other supplements as needed. I'd hesitate to encourage immune boosters at this point, only because i'm seeing some indications that cytokine storm is implicated in many H5N1 deaths-and boosting the immune system may make this more likely. I'm not sure on this one- pure specualtion on my part at this time...would like to hear any other thoughts on it if we can turn up data one way or another. BTW< I'm thinking that natural antivirals (like elderberry, garlic, etc) are NOT in that category and probably OK. Ginger caps definitely on my list, for the nausea and GI distress-can make a big difference in retaining fluids.

This is in addition to usual preps for possible hunker down/ shelter in place situation- since almost all the pandemic plans include some quarantine. At least a week if youve been in close contact. Add that to my concern, which I think is founded, of many shortages and closing and transportation problems if theres a prolonged outbreak with a high transmission rate, and you've got a situation where the average pantry could be bare pretty quickly. And this is one situation where having enough to share may go a long way, since any supply breakdowns may be spotty and not last too long. For both basic necessities as well as the special items above- if relative and neighbors are in need, we may be able to help. An extra bottle of tylenol may buy some good will.Think of it as a temporary, practice TEOTWAWKI?

Just some quick thoughts- and MHO only-YMMV. I gotta go feed a bunch of dogs, then rustle up some groceries for DH and I...will try to get back later. Good thread, Hansa, lets keep it going and build on the ideas. We may be able to create a good prep thread with it.

Here is a few things to get started

Adjustable N95 Particulate Respirator

Vinyl Gloves - I hate the latex gloves.

Bleach

I started looking in my medical cupboard yesterday.

I'm going to put in 10X the Sambucol and Olive Leaf extract that I usually get before winter arrives. I will probably get more colodial silver and grapefruit seed extract too.

I am looking at Beta Glucans and it sounds like a supply of that would be a good idea too.

Herbal healer has a page about flu:

http://www.herbalhealer.com/fluseason.html

These are excellent replies. This is what I was hoping for in responses. TI was hoping for a thread like this that can be pulled up from the archives when people started asking "what do I do?"

Thank you so much. I imagine there could be a supply of foods we could keep on hand that would be easier to tolerate should we get ill.

I found I was able to take a few swallows of plain yogurt or cottage cheese for protein when I had a very severe case of the flu. Not everyone can tolerate dairy but it was all I could get down.

Maybe a protein powder would be good to have on hand.

Tamiflu- A few online services will charge a 'physian fee' to have there ONLINE doc call it into your pharmacy.
Perfectly legal, Perfectly safe. BUT Tamiflu has only been shown to be affective IF taken within the first 72 hours of symptoms in H5N1.
After that..... your cooked

Coming off 2 days of fever and vomiting 10 times, all I wanted was Propel. It's that lo cal sports drink with part sucrose part splenda, vitamins, potassium, and some other stuff. I could hardly keep anything down but the Propel was OK. I plan to load up on it.

Yesterday only toast and a poached egg was edible.

Today I wanted chocolate and brownies all day. Not stupid enough to actually eat it, but I guess diet choco pudding for the kids might be nice, and mix in acidophilis and powdered vit C.

Got to get the C silver going....was out, and got hit so quick I was too sick to make any. Must stockpile.

I would like to point out that antibacterial soap will KILL a septic-tank. Those of us in the country w/ a septic-system need to stay away from antibacterial soap that gets washed down the drain and into the tank.

Michael, wont argue with you, I know the microbial balance of a septic system can be fairly easily disturbed- but in the midst of a killer flu pandemic, the last thing I'd worry about is the health of my septic tank. I'd be going for every edge I can get to keep the people healthy. I can always put a box of septic bugs in it afterwards. So, I'll stand on my suggestion for the antibacterial soap.

Laura

masks and gloves are good advice, and disinfectant towelettes and tissue paper (esp. to wipe your face or scratch your nose without using your dirty hands, heh). winter is great in that it's socially acceptable to wear gloves in public, grocery shopping and so forth, wash them often. my grocery store has a towelettes dispenser where you pick up your cart, so you can wipe it down before use, which i think rocks. be hypervigilant about everything you touch, what others have touched, like products, gas pumps, cash, door handles, even your grocery bags, your MEDICINE BOTTLES (contaminated by a pharmacist who touched the counter, money and scripts of all the sickest people in town that day), anything in public. treat everything like it's been contaminated, because it has. developing that mind set now can help you put in place some habits, so it'll be easy to apply them in severe risk situations like an epidemic. when you're in a situation where your hands are at risk of having been contaminated, it's hard to get out of the habit of mindlessly rubbing an eye or planting germs elsewhere. for instance, open your wallet and now that's contaminated...keep your cash or paycard for an outing in a separate pocket...develop layers of protocols that are habit for you, and the mental awareness, so that when you're home again, you automatically know what needs to be washed due to potential exposure. now at home, be aware of what in your house you handle if you do not live alone, as there is another vector for infection. no need for me to list all the layers of application, as once you start adopting the mindset, you'll learn in a few weeks or months all the stuff. i just encourage you to start now, as habits are very hard to change and so practice is the key, plus the practice will give you the awareness and skill needed to be performing adequately in the next outbreak, when there will be no opportunity to make a mistake. lol, maybe i should start watching that tv show Monk for tips. also remember that the gov's operation topoff declared that any epidemic "like the 1918 influenza" will be responded to by a lockdown, so heads up for that and be ready the survive in place withoout access to goods (groceries) and services.

Is there much difference (besides the price) between Pedialyte and Gatorade? We have a baby who will soon be one year old. In normal circumstances, we wouldn't give him Gatorade if the doctor said to give Pedialyte. But the cost of stockpiling large quantities of Pedialyte would be prohibitive. (I think the name brand is about $5 per quart, and the Wal-Mart generic version is about $3). Since Gatorade is probably about a dollar per quart, it would be much more realistic to keep large quantities of it on hand.

So in an emergency, would it be advisable to give Gatorade to a baby, or would other options be better.

And incidentally, if there were an epidemic going on, I would probably use anti-bacterial soap for psychological reasons (and to prevent secondary infections, I suppose). But would it do anything to prevent a viral infection? Normally, I don't like to tout the excuse of "false sense of security" (since that's often used as an excuse to do nothing), but in some ways, wouldn't it be better not to have all of the antibacterial soap and goo? If you dab a little on your hands, it does give you a good feeling that you've killed the germs. In some ways, wouldn't it be better to have a bit of paranoia about them, and wash your hands with a lot of normal soap and hot water?

You can buy powdered pedialite... or you can make your own a LOT cheaper with salt and sugar.

ChainedLightning said:

You can buy powdered pedialite... or you can make your own a LOT cheaper with salt and sugar.

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I suspected as much. Other than salt and sugar, are there any other ingredients we should keep on hand?

Any concerns with health topics can be found at this link, where Canada Sue is a Mod.

http://www.curevents.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=21

??????

Regis, got a link for that tamiflu online ???

RC - when my little one was an infant I had the recipe, given to me by a doctor, for how to put together a "fake pedialite" on the road - it was a ratio of salt and sugar and water... and it was also broken down into how much to put into an eight ounce bottle, and even how to do it with restaurant packs of salt and sugar.. but I have no idea where that is now - I think it was two to one or maybe three to one - more sugar than salt.

For older kids, I've seen a recipe floating around that has salt and sugar and baking soda and a koolaid packet.

tamiflu , can only be purchased by Drs. presciption in the US.

If you want to order outside the US, just type Tamiflu into any search engine.

But...you should be knowledgeable on the Quality/and Conditions/firms of what you are ordering.

RC said:

Is there much difference (besides the price) between Pedialyte and Gatorade? We have a baby who will soon be one year old. In normal circumstances, we wouldn't give him Gatorade if the doctor said to give Pedialyte. But the cost of stockpiling large quantities of Pedialyte would be prohibitive. (I think the name brand is about $5 per quart, and the Wal-Mart generic version is about $3). Since Gatorade is probably about a dollar per quart, it would be much more realistic to keep large quantities of it on hand.

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Do NOT give a baby or anyone else with diarrhea, Gatorade. The high sugar content can exacerbate the diarrhea, rather than help it. Mild beaten down ginger ale or peidialite is ok due to a lower sugar content. Weak tea, diet cola beaten down etc. Sugar just makes diarrhea worse. If cost is a factor, water the gatorade down by 2/3.

Electrolyte Solution

Here's the recipe I have for homemade electrolyte solution:

1 tsp. Morton "Lite Salt"
1/3 tsp. baking soda
10 tsp. sugar
1 qt. water

You can also add a packet of Kool-Aid (not the kind with sugar added!) to flavor it...but it's still gonna be icky. I put the dry stuff in plastic 1-qt. bottles so all I have to do is add water if I need it.

Laurie

Laurie,


Is it possible to add Equal or Splenda to that electrolyte solution recipe, to make the mixture less "icky" tasting?

I don't think any preps are going to help for this one. The powers that be have already had about 50 bio scientist murdered over the past 10 years that could help solve this upcoming pandemic. Looks like prayers are the only thing that can help in this situation.

Is it worth stocking up on some fish antibiotics, for my fish, if they get pneumonia? Which ones?

Black Elderberry Extract - developed by an Israeli virologist...company name Sambucol...with sugar or with sorbitol, your choice.

Oscillococcinum (Oscillo) - developed and made in France by Boiron...has shown great immune system boosting if taken as soon as flu symptoms appear.

Zinc - immune system boosting mineral.

Stress tabs - large doses of vitamin C and B.

All can be purchased over the internet at places like drugstore.com...search around to get the best price.

Laurie the Mom's recipe is the one I use to make home-made gatorade during haying season to keep my 78 year old Dad hydrated on the tractor. The sugar isn't important for dehydration...it's the salt and soda, so I make up the solution and add my fave...Crystal Light Lemonade mix.

For debilitated, sick kids, the sugar is probably a good idea if they can tolerate it.

Here's one I thought about last night and now I always make sure I have some,

And that is the really soft Kleenex. I try to keep 2 boxes on hand cause when your nose starts running I have ended up with a raw nose that only adds to the misery big time. I think the ones I store are called Softique. They also have a antiviral kleenex out too. But don't know if it's soft.

Flu Pandemic hits, with a 70% kill rate.

I am not going outside. Period. That is a bug out situation, right? I am not going grocery shopping. I am not going to school. I am not going to work. I am locking my front door and sitting in my nice prepped house, eating my nice prepped food and cleaning my nice prepped gun. For the duration.

n95 masks? Sure. One of my mates has a few of those. He also wants to buy NBC/MOP suits for each of us. No. I don't need a biowarfare suit. My doors and windows will be closed and I will be out of sight until the epidemic passes.

What else are all of these preps for if not to allow us to bug out in a time like that? How long can it last, with a 70% kill rate? Weeks? Months? Okay. I am prepping to survive an extended disruption of normal life.

If it is less terrible than predicted.... say only a 10% kill rate? I might take my chances using some preventative measures and going out for a few necessary errands.

This is my plan if it happens in the next couple of years. After that, I will be an RN. That will change my situation somewhat, since I would feel obligated to make myself useful during the epidemic. But if I weren't in a position to help directly, the best thing that I could possibly do would be to isolate myself and avoid spreading the contagion even further. The more people who bug out and quarantine themselves the shorter and less deadly the epidemic will be for everyone.

Tamiflu

I am an ER nurse who is very concerned about the flu. When tamiflu and the other antivirals came out a few years ago, the docs were writing Rx like crazy for them. But I haven't seen a single Rx in the past few years. I asked on of the docs about it the other day, and he said he didn't think they were useful. Of course, by the time we see the patients it is probably too late to catch it "early". He said what anecdotal evidence he has seen has not convinced him they are worthwhile. He said who knows if the person who took the meds would not have had a mild case any way? MAYBE if you had the stuff on hand early, and started it when you first had a sore throat or cough, but who knows???? I think we are going to go with the more natural remedies and pray for the best.

By the way, this thread is great and I agree with most of the suggestions. As far as the sugar in Gatorade causing worsening diarrhea...I'm not sure. We do suggest to parents they give Pedialyte or Gatorade. Also, the BRAT diet for diarrhea..
Bananas
Rice
Applesauce
Toast

F Drew

if your fish had influenza pneumonia, an actual viral pneumonia, then only an antiviral medication like tamiflu would help them. But, the majority of pneumonias after flu are bacterial, called "Secondary pneumonias"-they take advantage of the weakened lungs and immune system.

I kinda searched that up yesterday, to answer the same questions myself. Now, if your fish were to get a post influenza bacterial pneumonia, the clnical picture you might see would be a regualr flu pattern. After 2 or 3 days, perhaps up to a week after starting to feel better, there would be a worsening of condition, with a return of fever likely, shortness of breath, and possible painful or labored breathing, and increasing tiredness. It could take a day or two for that to build, or be sudden. Or, the fever of influenza usually leaves after abou the third day-but if the fever lasts greater than five days consider the possibility of secondary bacterial pneumonia.

It seems most post influenza pneumonias, from my reading, are pneumococci. Staph aureus and Haemophilus influenzae are other pneumonia bugs common post influenza. Other community acquired pneumonias are common too, but not much more so then usual in some articles, higher rates in other articles, so I'm not positive on that one.

However, for post influenza bacterial pneumonia, the most common recommendation for outpatient treatment for people is a floxin. (Tequin, Avelox, Levaquin are the three recommended) I dont think they make them for fish, or any other animal, without a veterinary prescription...but i could be wrong. The second most common one is Augmentin (amoxicillen/clavanulate) as an alternative or a cephalosporin, preferably one with gram negative coverage, like ceftin or vantin.

Of course, I'm a nurse, not a vet, and I'd have to recommend before treating your fish you discuss this with your veterinarian.

LMonty - Thanks for the explanation, my fish appreciate it, and of course, prefer to see the vet.

dixie-another ED nurse? Cool! glad to meet you! Yep, we do recommend gatorade or pedialyte too.

re: the sugar- some types of diarrhea may be increased, but if you are losing fluids quickly, and unable to take in other food fluids, then small amts of gatorade arent likely to increase it. I'm not suggesting you drink a gallon of gatorade a day, perhaps I should have clarified that. Its just one of the fluids you can use to help keep a sick person hydrated. Regular water, tea, juices, ginger ale, etc are also good, and so is the variety. Use it half strength if your worried about that, we often recommend that. Your blood sugar will be low, and fever elevates metabolism- most folks will need the glucose for maintenance, so the sugarfree options may not be the best bet for most folks. Diabetics may be different, and have to measure their blood sugar several times a day when sick. Ask your doctor now how to deal with it if it happens.

With every degree in temperature rise, you double the rate of fluid loss; a person with fever must get additonal fluids. The elderly and small kids can dehydrate seriously in just hours or a day with a high fever. Three days of high fever from flu or anything, with poor fluid intake and additonal los sof fluids from diarrhea, can cause a disasterous dehydration in infants and susceptable folks whose fluid levels are low to begin with. That in itself can be fatal.

The points that have been brought up about the benefits of fever are good ones-but there is a point at which the bodies natural treatment is worse than the disease, in that the fever itself can be life threatening thru seizure or severe dehydration. (most febrile seizures are not life threatening-just scary. But if they continue for more than a minute or two, and dont break, they can be dangerous because they inhibit breathing and the individual isnt getting enough oxygen, and that causes brain damage) The same with gatorade- yea, its high sugar, and in some cases thats not good-in others, its life saving.

As in all things medical, theres rarely a hard and fast answer that fits all cases. You have to find a balance for each individual in each situation. Perhaps the closest I can get to a hard and fast rule is that with any febrile illness-push fluids. Do as much as you can to get the person to drink an 8 ounce glass of fluids every hour or two-or however much fluid is nescesary to keep their urine light straw colored. If a person is tolerating a fever without confusion, lethargy or dehydration; and is able to take in enough fluids to avoid dehydration- it may be better to leave it alone. Watch them to see of that changes. If any of those signs are present, or the urine output gets dark, instead of light straw color (an early sign of dehydration is concentrated urine, and thats seen by the color darkening) I'd personally aggressively treat the fever and push fluids even more. Same with the diarrhea- if they can tolerate some additional loose stools, and dont dehydrate, then youre probalby OK> Just push an extra glass of fluid (in addition to that hourly one) after each BM to help keep up with fluid loss. But if it becomes severe, youre bailing against the tide- and since the resultant dehydration can be quickly fatal in a situation where you cant get rapid IV replacement, I'd treat the diarrhea agresssively, preferably before dehydration symptoms develop. Its estimated that the deaths of milions of third world kids anually are from dehydration after diarrheal illness, and simple fluid/electrolyte replacement could prevent it. Thats why gatorade is good-it does supply the electrolytes that most other fluids dont, so i do use it as part of a fluid replacement strategy. Potassium and other electrolyte loss thru severe diarrhea can be dangerous.

I dont worry at all if a kid or adult doesnt want solid food for several days-usually, they dont really need it. Its the lack or loss of fluid that rapidly debilitates or dehydrates. You dont have to push food during the illness, give them what they do want (within reason!) but definitely push fluids, wether they want it or not. If they vomit, back off for a little bit, (maybe 15 mins) then try a tsp or so of gatorade or pedialyte or water/ice chips at a time,at ten or fifteen minute intervals, until they can tolerate larger sips. If they vomit again, start over. etc. Popsicles may work when nothing else does. I made gatorade or pedialyte popsicles for my kids many times when they were sick.

The tough part is gonna be if the Health care system is so overloaded you cant get hold of your provider, even by phone. Then youre gonna have to go on your gut-like most moms have had to do thru the ages, until modern medicine came along. We know a lot more now than then, how to prevent the unnecessary deaths from dehydration, by following those simple rules. Keep them hydrated, treat fevers if they cause bad symptoms, treat diarrhea if its prolonged or leading to dehydration. Preventing dehydration is much better than having to deal with it-which is the basis for my earlier recommendations for fever control and fluid replacements.

Some of the info coming out shows that diarrhea is a common symptom in kids with flu. Remember that the live virus is shed in the stool. Treat it like its infectious- it is. Use gloves to clean them, and i'd personally use antibacterial skin wipes instead of regular baby wipes. Wash soiled clothing and linen with bleach-even if its not white stuff, the heck with the clothes, so what if they fade? they can be easily replaced later. But it may help prevent someone else from getting it. It might be overkill to mention this part, but any linens or clothes or soiled objects from a sick person a should probalby be cleaned and laudered seperately from the rest of the family, and only with disinfectant.

Personally, I'd treat a fever over 102 orally in an adult, over 103 orally in a child-and any fever that has symptoms. IME odds are, in true flu; the temp will still stay over 100 even after tylenol, and that enough to still inhibit viral replication without the devastating effects of the fever itself. I'd treat more than light diarrhea with extra fluids, and if got bad enough to become frequent and watery, and the person was loosing more fluid than they could keep up with by oral intake, I'd use something to slow it down. I'll have to go find my recipe for diarrhea electrolyte replacement, Ive got it soemwhere. It's a bit yickky, but it works. I'd treat nausea with ginger capsules or real ginger ale, its been proven just as effective as phenergan in trials in europe. YMMV, but thats what I'd do.

Which bring us to another important prep item- Themometers! If you dont have at least two, get them now! Know how to use them. One to use, and one back up. Definitely disinfect them between uses and between family members. One for each family member is not a bad idea if you can manage it.

Thanks all for the electrolyte recipes and discussion. It looks like the only thing we need to have on hand that we don't is the "lite salt." In a non-emergency situation, we'll probably run to the store and get Pedialyte. But in an emergency situation, RC, Jr., will just have to deal with the "icky" taste of the homemade version Although, he tends to eat anything, so I suspect the ick factor won't be a problem.

Incidentally, even in non-SHTF situations, we learned the value of keeping a few bottles of that in the house. When he was sick, both of us were sick as well. During the course of two days, we wound up making about 5 trips to the store to get something we didn't have (for the sick baby and the sick father), and IIRC, Pedialyte accounted for a few of those trips. And since Wal-Mart isn't in the neighborhood (and I can't imagine going in there and dealing with that place while sick), there didn't seem to be any generic options.

I would add to the preventative equipment some form of eye guard/splash guard. Besides handling money, door knobs and such differently, I would also suggest handling the mail differently. Hitting it with a shot of some kind of disinfectant or leaving it in the sun for the afternoon prior to opening maybe?

>>Is it possible to add Equal or Splenda to that electrolyte solution recipe, to make the mixture less "icky" tasting?<<

I suppose you could, or maybe even honey. It might be worth mixing up a batch ahead of time to see what you think...since I don't like Kool-Aid or Gatorade, it could just be me that thinks it's yucky!

Laurie

Notred- the tollbooth workers on the east coast have been wearing those cheap gloves for years. Dont think its anything new, it may just have gotten to your area recently. Not a bad idea, actually.

Lime, shovels and Bodybags

My PH Doc is wonderful at planning for bioterrorism. He told me he is securing the legal necessities to allow for forced quarantining of individuals. Plan on staying at home.

King James Bible!

Remember, this thing supposedly has three quarters mortality.

Concerning masks...

Here is a link to a company selling a mask called the NanoMask. They claim that the influenza virus, including H5N1, is small enough to go through the N95 masks. Of course, they want us to buy their product which they claim can stop the virus...but they list some sizes of viruses that some people may find helpful...and any of us counting on those N95 masks may want to check this:

www.emergencyfiltration.com/H5N1 Excerpt.htm

I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to use half salt and half "No Salt" in the electrolyte recipe? "No Salt" is potassium chloride and with the immense amount of potassium people lose in diarrhea and whatever I would think this would be a good idea.

It's easy to find in large supermarkets and not expensive . There are 650 mgs. of potassium in 1/4 teaspoon of this stuff and it tastes just like salt.