What You Can Do For Our Constitution and the FLDS

Other than tying ribbons to my trees, and writing my legislators, I have been at a loss for actions that I can take to express my extreme distaste for the Unconstitutional actions of the Texas Political organization. I want people to rise up and tell the government this is wrong, but evidently most people are okay with it. Those who are not, here is some helpful info from the Petition Site:

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Okay guys, someone did a little more homework on this, and this is what we found out. The Governor of Texas can’t do anything about it until the trial is over (I know it’s ridiculous, but that’s what they said). The guy we need to talk to is the Commissioner, he is over this whole situation. His name is Kerry Cockerell and his direct line is (512) 438-5256, his hotline is 1-800-720-7777. Also, we were told that messages on the phone aren’t as good as a letter, since every document that comes into the office must be READ and FILED, by the commissioner himself. So everyone needs to write him a letter, his address is Office of the Commissioner Attn: Kerry Cockerell P.O. Box 149030 Austin, TX 78714 Here is the address of the Governor of Texas P.O. Box 12428 Austin, TX 78711 Also, here are websites you can go to and leave posts. Governor of Texas – www.governor.state.tx.us DFPS – www.dfps.state.tx.us Office of Consumer Affairs – oca@dfps.state.tx.us

My suggestion is, call every number and leave a message or talk to someone, write a letter to the governor and the commissioner, visit all those websites and leave a post. Just inundate them, show them that America is “governed by the people, for the people”. Let them know that America is not happy and that this incident isn’t just going to blow over and go away. We will not forget it. Also, there is a petition going around, if you haven’t signed it yet, please do. The link to it is http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds Also Look at these webs sites http://www.fldstruth.org/ http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
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Please do something if you believe in the constitution and believe these freedoms guaranteed are precious and must be defended at all costs. We need to be active to retain the few freedoms that are still ours.

bump for everyone - the constitution is too importnat to let it go down without some kind of fight!

They Don't Wnat to KNOW!!!

Here's what I got when I went to send Gv. Perry a message.

There's no way to leave a message, bet it's gotten just a little bit too hot for him!


Server Error in '/contact' Application.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An error has occurred while establishing a connection to the server. When connecting to SQL Server 2005, this failure may be caused by the fact that under the default settings SQL Server does not allow remote connections. (provider: Named Pipes Provider, error: 40 - Could not open a connection to SQL Server)
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException: An error has occurred while establishing a connection to the server. When connecting to SQL Server 2005, this failure may be caused by the fact that under the default settings SQL Server does not allow remote connections. (provider: Named Pipes Provider, error: 40 - Could not open a connection to SQL Server)

Source Error:

An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.

Stack Trace:


[SqlException (0x80131904): An error has occurred while establishing a connection to the server. When connecting to SQL Server 2005, this failure may be caused by the fact that under the default settings SQL Server does not allow remote connections. (provider: Named Pipes Provider, error: 40 - Could not open a connection to SQL Server)]
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlInternalConnection.OnError(SqlException exception, Boolean breakConnection) +735043

Coward!

Tigerlily said:

Other than tying ribbons to my trees, and writing my legislators, I have been at a loss for actions that I can take to express my extreme distaste for the Unconstitutional actions of the Texas Political organization. I want people to rise up and tell the government this is wrong, but evidently most people are okay with it. Those who are not, here is some helpful info from the Petition Site:

-----------------------------
Okay guys, someone did a little more homework on this, and this is what we found out. The Governor of Texas can’t do anything about it until the trial is over (I know it’s ridiculous, but that’s what they said). The guy we need to talk to is the Commissioner, he is over this whole situation. His name is Kerry Cockerell and his direct line is (512) 438-5256, his hotline is 1-800-720-7777. Also, we were told that messages on the phone aren’t as good as a letter, since every document that comes into the office must be READ and FILED, by the commissioner himself. So everyone needs to write him a letter, his address is Office of the Commissioner Attn: Kerry Cockerell P.O. Box 149030 Austin, TX 78714 Here is the address of the Governor of Texas P.O. Box 12428 Austin, TX 78711 Also, here are websites you can go to and leave posts. Governor of Texas – www.governor.state.tx.us DFPS – www.dfps.state.tx.us Office of Consumer Affairs – oca@dfps.state.tx.us

My suggestion is, call every number and leave a message or talk to someone, write a letter to the governor and the commissioner, visit all those websites and leave a post. Just inundate them, show them that America is “governed by the people, for the people”. Let them know that America is not happy and that this incident isn’t just going to blow over and go away. We will not forget it. Also, there is a petition going around, if you haven’t signed it yet, please do. The link to it is http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds Also Look at these webs sites http://www.fldstruth.org/ http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
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Please do something if you believe in the constitution and believe these freedoms guaranteed are precious and must be defended at all costs. We need to be active to retain the few freedoms that are still ours.

Click to expand...

So does this mean you think it's Ok for mothers to allow their underage daughters to be sexually assaulted and impregnated?

Bicycle Junkie said:

So does this mean you think it's Ok for mothers to allow their underage daughters to be sexually assaulted and impregnated?

Click to expand...

I suppose for some it is OK as long as the rapes of children are done in the guise of religious freedom.

As long as those folks get a speedy trial and representation by counsel it would seem to me the state's actions are both legal and constitutional.



don

Bicycle Junkie, Are you saying you think the constitution is not important? You think it is important only when it agrees with what you think is important? If gathering evidence is difficult we can overlook what the constitution requires?

This board is changing from a group of patriotic preppers who cared about this country to a group of liberal jackasses. And you, bicycle junkie are either cluelessn ore one of those liberal jackasses.

Conrad Nimikos said:

Bicycle Junkie, Are you saying you think the constitution is not important? You think it is important only when it agrees with what you think is important? If gathering evidence is difficult we can overlook what the constitution requires?

This board is changing from a group of patriotic preppers who cared about this country to a group of liberal jackasses. And you, bicycle junkie are either cluelessn ore one of those liberal jackasses.

Click to expand...

Liberal jackasses?

The court is the place to argue whether evidence was gathered legally. That is one of the purposes of a defendant having legal counsel that can argue the case on legal and indeed constitutional grounds. That is neither liberal nor conservative politically.

Letter writers should never have a say in whether the laws are enforced or not.

The place to change laws is at the legislative level unless you believe in judges making law.


don

Is it Okay for the Government to condemn an entire community of people, and to take away over 400 children, based purely on a hoax phone call?

Ever heard of the Constitution?

How about Due Process???

Zulu

Tigerlily said:

Other than tying ribbons to my trees, and writing my legislators, I have been at a loss for actions that I can take to express my extreme distaste for the Unconstitutional actions of the Texas Political organization. I want people to rise up and tell the government this is wrong, but evidently most people are okay with it. Those who are not, here is some helpful info from the Petition Site

Click to expand...

What specific actions do you find unconstitutional?

Zulu Cowboy said:

Is it Okay for the Government to condemn an entire community of people, and to take away over 400 children, based purely on a hoax phone call?

Ever heard of the Constitution?

How about Due Process???

Zulu

Click to expand...

Oh yes, I have heard of the Constitution.

especially the part where it says

Article IV:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Click to expand...

Now, if there were evidence seized without a warrant having been issued I am sure the good folks in Texas will throw it out at the trial.

You do believe in citizens having a right to a trial do you not?




don

That is such a stupid argument that it is hardly worth answering. I am opposed to rape, I am opposed to underage marriage, I am opposed to slavery, I am opposed to robbery, and I am opposed to murder. However, the laws of this land govern how we are to deal with violations of the law, and what is definitely not proscribed is that it is okay for investigators, lawmen, CPS, officials or any other yahoo to deal with it anyway they want, because they think the "ends justify the means".

Having only 1 search warrant to enter multiple buildings in an entire community, and retrieve massive items from said multiple residences, is unheard of in the United States. It is part of the laws of every state in the Union that the search warrants must be very specific. Including the address. Furthermore, according to the constitution - you remember that don't you - a search may not take place unless there is an oath of affirmation taken. That didn't happen, and when they found the mysterious "girl" who called in the complaint, it was a black woman in Colorado with a vindictive agenda. So we see the entire precept for the search warrant and subsequent confiscation of all the children was based on fabrication. Thus, there is absolutely no way, (unless Texas continues its gregarious violations of legal standards), that anyone can be prosecuted for anything because it will be deemed in court that the State violated laws in the search and seizure.

But did Texas let that little inconvenient fact stop their ham-fisted actions? They ignored that there original motivation and flimsy support for their invasion had gone up in smoke. And they are parceling out the kids to foster families.

You must understand that CPS is waging a war in the press, and they are lying through their teeth. Quit being so gullible! Man this just burns me to no end. You realize of course that in court testimony, the evidence presented showed that there were ten girls married, only ten. Five of them were pregnant. The fact that all of the married girls are between the ages of 16 - 19, which makes the marriages entirely legal in Texas, is getting no press at all, because it doesn't fit the agenda.

Furthermore, the states own experts testified that there was no sign abuse in any of the children. They stated that are happy and healthy and well adjusted. Bet you didn't see that on TV, did you.

So, if there are crimes in this community, why don't they give us the name of the perp? Why isn't anyone behind bars? What evidence do they present that justifies taking 437 children from their families? You can't tell me any, because there isn't any. You tell me, just where is the danger to these kids, because it sure didn't come out in the courtroom. That is unless you swallow Voss' claim that the boys are being groomed to be predators. Excuse me, but isn't that a thought crime, aka Minority Report. Exactly how are they being groomed? What is being done to mold these minds? They read the Book of Mormon which doesn't contain anything of the sort. They pray. They worship in the temple.

It seems that the government handlers have succeeded in the multi-decade experiment to brainwash the masses into truly believing that the "ends justifies the means." That this country is so Machiavellian, is a grievous disaster and a moral outrage. According the Machiavelli the "criteria for acceptable cruel actions is to obtain and consolidate power". Anyone who does not see this happening has their head in the sand. Unfortunately, that is most of the citizens of the USA.

I worked in the Office of the Governor. I can tell you that the governor will never even see the letter. It will be answered by a staffmember with the governor's signature, but the signature is imprinted from a computer file. The letter is then filed away.

They WILL tell the governor if they've been getting a lot of letters one way or another, but it's not likely to make much difference, since anyone can start a letter-writing campaign. All it will let him know is the general tide of public opinion. He can do what he wants with that.

You're likely to get more action if you write your state senator and state representative.

But yeah - do SOMETHING.

Having sex with children is a crime, and should be punished to the FULL extent of the law. I dont give a shit wherether you are a slimey ass Muslime, or a LDS or LSD or whatever the hell you call yourself. CHILD MOLESTERS SHOULD BE PUT AWAY!!!! Touch my children, and see where it gets youre sick ass!!!!


btw, that means I am all for due process, and our Constutional Rights, but for everyone espeacially the children having the right not to get raped.

Fulltimer said:

I suppose for some it is OK as long as the rapes of children are done in the guise of religious freedom.

As long as those folks get a speedy trial and representation by counsel it would seem to me the state's actions are both legal and constitutional.



don

Click to expand...

Then FT; you know so very little about the Constitution of the United States; that you are 'dangerous' to it...........

As for what to do; WRITE LOU DOBBS! (e-address on his web site) Tell him of your concerns that the Texas PTB are running rampant is complete disregard to the Constitution; and that if he even thinks of upholding the Constitutional rights of 2 border agents being important to us all.

Then why is he not concerned with the blantant disregard for the Constitution with respects to the FLDs, who number in the hundreds.

Invalid search warrents! *Which* the complantiant was not verified before the search warrent was asked for.

Then after the seizure of the children and poscessions under said search warrent, which was issued for only one person.

The PTB totally ignored the arrest of a woman in Colorado, who they now believe was the person who actually made the phony complaint - which in turn hsd led to the issuing of an invalid and UnConstitutional search warrent.

Evidence of all manner was seized with complete disregard to the 4th amendment!

The compulson to get them to take DNA tests. Which is an attempt to remove their 5th amendment rights!

The judge saying that the FLDs cannot say their prayers (with out a regular Mormon present) = to vett their prayers: Violation of the 1st admendment.

If the PTB can do this to them - and we say nothing; then they can, at will, and no fear. Be able to do it to the homeschoolers and any other 'odd' groups they don't like...

dberszerker,
Did you read my post at 5:41. They haven't provided any evidence of rape in court. They haven't identified any suspected rapist in the community. They just took all their children. If there is a suspected rapist(s), why aren't only their children in state custody. You surely don't believe that every man in that community is a rapist. Remember the state's own expert said that the children showed no signs of physical or sexual abuse. So, until you find some hint of evidence besides breathless Enquirer type news reports, I think you should quit bandying about the charge of rape as applying to every adult in the community.

Warren Jeffs kinda brought the dark side of this particular sect of LDS into the spotlight. I feel with all the crimess being perpatraited against our children, law enforcement is faced with the task of either acting swiftly or letting more children become a statistic. It is shaky ground these days due to the fact that there are liars out in droves, but I can understand the quick reaction. It does alarm me that power can be abused, but what can be done to stop either the sick bastards or the power hungry jack boot thugs? Tell me.

Dutch just made an important point.
If you want to get the attention of TPTBs, hit the MSM with emails, letters, and phone calls. Lou Dobbs is a good start.
Always add that you can't believe that they are not reporting on whatever you're telling them. Be consistant and never let up. Be relentless.
TPTB like to control the MSM and cannot stand it when the MSM thinks for themselves.

Tigerlily said:

dberszerker,
Did you read my post at 5:41. They haven't provided any evidence of rape in court. They haven't identified any suspected rapist in the community. They just took all their children. If there is a suspected rapist(s), why aren't only their children in state custody. You surely don't believe that every man in that community is a rapist. Remember the state's own expert said that the children showed no signs of physical or sexual abuse. So, until you find some hint of evidence besides breathless Enquirer type news reports, I think you should quit bandying about the charge of rape as applying to every adult in the community.

Click to expand...

Not saying that at all, only let the shoe fit on the sick peace of crap to which it may belongs.

Made these points before, but I guess it bears repeating, since we have a lot of people here that just don't get it...

Check out the information for yourself:

You can find a copy of the warrant here.

You can find a copy of the mothers' letter to the governor here.

Copy of the CPS affidavit here.

Copy of the cellphone removal order here.

SW affidavit is here.

If you read through this stuff, and compare it with the Constitutional requirements for search and seizure, you'll see that they did not abide by the Constitutional requirements of due process.

Instead of shouting that all these people are criminals, why not read through all these documents, and THEN SHOW ME ANYTHING, (just one thing) that justifies the removal of 400 children from their homes, separating them from their mothers (perhaps permanently, as they have threatened) WITHOUT A SHRED OF ACTUAL EVIDENCE.

AS YOU READ these documents, PLEASE REMEMBER that the "16-year old caller's information" that these documents are based upon DID NOT EVEN EXIST - GET IT?

They did all this stuff, created the warrant, raided the compound, removed the kids by force, separated them from their parents, ALL ON THE BASIS OF A FAKE HOAX CALL that, as it turns out, was really a 33-year old woman from Colorado Springs, who has a history with authorities of making FAKE child abuse phone calls.

That is where all these documents originated from - their validity is based on that ONE PHONE CALL (and following phone calls from this FAKER LADY and the "information" it contained).

You really need to quit attacking those who are defending the rights of these mothers. It's quite sick.

It seems to be "Guilty until proven innocent" with you sheeple.

Bicycle Junkie said:

So does this mean you think it's Ok for mothers to allow their underage daughters to be sexually assaulted and impregnated?

Click to expand...

You should come forward with what you know since you obviously have some evidence that the rangers don't have yet to know for sure that this is happening. Until there is evidence, it is heresay and rumor mill to make sensational media stories.

bethshaya said:

You should come forward with what you know since you obviously have some evidence that the rangers don't have yet to know for sure that this is happening. Until there is evidence, it is heresay and rumor mill to make sensational media stories.

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The facts of the case or cases should be decided in a court of law, not on a discussion board and not by popular opinion with letter campaigns. It is fun and exciting to speculate but the real discussion should be by legal counsel in a legal forum.

We are a nation of law and when we decide to throw that out we are no longer protected by that law.

Fun and exciting?!!! I just don't understand that statement at all. You seem to simply not get the fact that the main problem in this case is the judiciary and those that are charged with upholding the law, are totally ignoring the legal statutes and making up their own rules as they go along.

You're right, Fulltimer, we are a nation of law. That is why some of us are so furious, because the laws are being ignored in this case.

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice..." We want justice. We demand justice. Justice is applying the laws and statutes that are in the US Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Texas. As has been stated above, there are specific violations of the constitution that have been violated. I would like to hear how we are wrong about that. Please include any supporting documentation.

Thanks for the links, Teeja, but I don't care to have a discussion with you because you aren't capable of having one without resorting to bullying by keyboard and sandbox name calling to either those that disagree with you or are trying to understand you.

It's a simple question, and one that those of you who so colorfully attack everyone else refuse to answer, what specific actions are unconstitutional? The OP wants everyone to write a letter because of the "unconstitutional actions of Texas" I'm down with letter writing, though I like them to be factual and not just spewage at the keyboard.

I've a bad taste in my mouth with CPS for other reasons, is that who we should be pissed at? Or should we be pissed at the Rangers for actually getting a warrant? You say it's bogus, but you're not the Judge, eh?

I don't believe CPS even needs a warrant to remove children from any home nor to conduct an investigation.

If you'll actually read the warrant and do some homework on the lifestyle and conviction of Mr. Jeffs (and this group's alliance with Jeffs), you'll know that these people, INCLUDING the mothers, made it impossible to even get in the compound, with a guard station and an unknown number of buildings/ outbuildings /residences and zero cooperation or information, let alone figure out what is or isn't going on.

The lifestyle itself is illegal in this country, 2 of the adult "fathers" (out of 3 families) have already been convicted and are sex offenders, why should the kids be returned when CPS can't even do what it is supposed to do, which is investigate?

If 50 of those kids lived in one residence, and one was sexually assaulted as is alleged, does that not make the other 49 also vulnerable and potential victims?

Everything that is KNOWN about the FLDS contradicts everything you are saying, the lifestyle itself does, the previous convictions of the other fathers does, the statements of those that have lived it and escaped it.

I do GET IT, I don't however KNOW that there isn't 16 year old Sarah Jessop, only that there MAY HAVE been a hoax phone call. The standards for reporting someone to CPS don't have to be "evidence" but rather a belief and that I am pretty sure can even be made anonymously.

I've not defended nor attacked anyone, though there are about 3 of you on every thread where this is an issue that insists on attacking everyone else, that is what "is quite sick" and frankly getting quite old so go find someone else to slap your "sheeple" label on.

Tigerlily said:

Fun and exciting?!!! I just don't understand that statement at all. You seem to simply not get the fact that the main problem in this case is the judiciary and those that are charged with upholding the law, are totally ignoring the legal statutes and making up their own rules as they go along.

You're right, Fulltimer, we are a nation of law. That is why some of us are so furious, because the laws are being ignored in this case.

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice..." We want justice. We demand justice. Justice is applying the laws and statutes that are in the US Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Texas. As has been stated above, there are specific violations of the constitution that have been violated. I would like to hear how we are wrong about that. Please include any supporting documentation.

Click to expand...

ok, so I'll ask again, what specific laws were ignored?

Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

US Constitution:
Section 2: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Amendment 1:
Cannot abridge the freedom of speech. The Texas authorities confiscated all the cell phones, the day after cell phone photos appeared in several newspapers documenting the conditions inside the concentration camp.

Amendment 5:
Citizens cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. Those children are citizens and they are being denied liberty.

Amendment 6:
Citizens must be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him.

Amendment 14:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

There you have the national laws that are violated. The state laws, I will dig up a bit later.

Tigerlily said:

Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Click to expand...

There was a warrant, the Ranger provided the affirmation, the probable cause went further than just the phone call, there was an address given for the ranch, the warrant went further to include all structures on the property and noted the difficulty even entering because of the survellience and communication systems on the property and those that previously wouldn't speak without permission first from whoever was the head-dude of the moment, the persons were specific, and in fact went further than Sarah, they were attempting to locate one father, Dale Barlow, that hadn't registered as a sex offender.

How do you expect them to do what they were supposed to do when no one knows or is willing to say there name/age/parents????

Seems to me the FLDS, including the mothers, have gone to extraordinary lengths to attempt to twist the law and prevent allegations of abuse from being investigated all while pretending to wrap themselves in the Constitution and pretending it's religious freedom.

Tigerlily said:

US Constitution:
Section 2: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Amendment 1:
Cannot abridge the freedom of speech. The Texas authorities confiscated all the cell phones, the day after cell phone photos appeared in several newspapers documenting the conditions inside the concentration camp.

Amendment 5:
Citizens cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. Those children are citizens and they are being denied liberty.

Amendment 6:
Citizens must be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him.

Amendment 14:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

There you have the national laws that are violated. The state laws, I will dig up a bit later.

Click to expand...

Thank you, tigerlily, my difficulty is the role of CPS.

I do understand what you are saying relative to the Constitution. CPS though, operates outside the same boundaries and are mostly immune from most "normal" or "regular" processes.

For how many decades on how many TV programs have we heard " you have the right to remain silent"


Do you even have to give your name? Will any LEO answer that for me.

Reminds me of an old saying:

"Just because one does not like the way the law has proceeded doesn't in any respect mean that due process has been denied." Oilpatch Hand, 2008

Click to expand...

(OK. Maybe it's not so old after all.)

SassyinAZ said:

I do understand what you are saying relative to the Constitution. CPS though, operates outside the same boundaries and are mostly immune from most "normal" or "regular" processes.

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Very astute observation. The phrase "due process of law" has to be taken in context. "Due process," as it applies to ongoing sexual abuse of children, is going to be different than due process in your garden variety embezzlement case, for reasons that really need no further elaboration.

The affidavit and warrants look OK, given what the authorities knew at the time. If there had not been sufficient probable cause at the time, the judge(s) involved probably wouldn't have signed off on them.

It's been observed before that the CPS is in a no-win situation here. Had they proceeded with the extreme level of caution desired by some here, they would have been pilloried for failure to act if child abuse actually had been occurring. As the events actually transpired, they acted in good faith on a tip that later begins to appear spurious, and they catch hell for that, too.

Until somebody comes up with something better than what has been presented, I believe I'll place that letter to Rick Perry in abeyance, at least for the time being.

Fulltimer said:

I suppose for some it is OK as long as the rapes of children are done in the guise of religious freedom.

As long as those folks get a speedy trial and representation by counsel it would seem to me the state's actions are both legal and constitutional.

don

Click to expand...

Agreed. If this were based ONLY on a phone call then I'd be upset that a warrant was issued based on that. However this is not the case & I hope the kiddie rapists burn.

Fulltimer said:

I suppose for some it is OK as long as the rapes of children are done in the guise of religious freedom.

As long as those folks get a speedy trial and representation by counsel it would seem to me the state's actions are both legal and constitutional.

don

Click to expand...

I missed the part about raping children... They married very young girls and they became their wives. Many cultures marry very young. I don't agree with the lifestyle of polygamy or marrying so young, but I don't see this as rape. On the other hand, if there was abuse happening (which they aren't finding any evidence of other than a phony phone call), that needs to be stopped.

Zulu Cowboy said:

Is it Okay for the Government to condemn an entire community of people, and to take away over 400 children, based purely on a hoax phone call?

Ever heard of the Constitution?

How about Due Process???

Zulu

Click to expand...

That scares me. Based upon this, the government can raid your home, take away your family, search through your home...all based upon a phony call. Just think about it. You have a neighbor that hates you because you own a dog that barks more than he should. So he calls the cops on you for some bull story about you abusing your wife. They raid your home and press charges without finding any evidence of the claim, other than your neighbor said it was true. And he called anonymously. Even your wife says nothing happened. So you go to court and have to defend yourself for something that didn't even happen. And meanwhile your kids go to a foster home. But the press takes on the story and guess what, they found an SKS with a bulk package of surplus ammo stored in a military ammo can. Now your a terrorist who beats his wife! And you own a pit bull so you must be involved in dog fights and training your dog to eat kids! And there was a book about gun rights and the history of guns throughout the world and what happens when governments take away guns...now your a conspirator to overthrow the government! And of course your neighbor, who hate you, is interviewed and says that you were always talking about doing this or that...a real wacko! Now regardless of what happens, your life is ruined!

That is what scares me about the situation. And if you think this doesn't happen, keep dreaming! I know this happens!

Here are the applicable Texas Statutes that contain rules that have been violated. Text italicized indicates the violation.

§ 261.3022. CHILD SAFETY CHECK ALERT LIST. (a) Subject to the availability of funds, the Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas shall create a child safety check alert list as part of the Texas Crime Information Center to help locate a family for purposes of investigating a report of child abuse or neglect.
(b) If the child safety check alert list is established and the department is unable to locate a family for purposes of investigating a report of child abuse or neglect, after the department has exhausted all means available to the department for locating the family, the department may seek assistance under this
section from the appropriate county attorney, district attorney, or criminal district attorney with responsibility for representing the department as provided by Section 264.009.
(c) If the department requests assistance, the county attorney, district attorney, or criminal district attorney, as applicable, may file an application with the court requesting the issuance of an ex parte order requiring the Texas Crime Information Center to place the members of the family the department is
attempting to locate on a child safety check alert list. The application must include a summary of:
(1) the report of child abuse or neglect the department is attempting to investigate; and
(2) the department's efforts to locate the family.
(d) [COLOR="Red"[I]]If the court determines after a hearing that the department has exhausted all means available to the department for locating the family, the court shall approve the application and order the appropriate law enforcement agency to notify the Texas Crime Information Center to place the family on a child safety check alert list. The alert list must include:
(1) the name of the family member alleged to have abused or neglected a child according to the report the department is attempting to investigate;
(2) the name of the child who is the subject of the report;
(3) a code identifying the type of child abuse or neglect alleged to have been committed against the child;
(4) the family's last known address; and
(5) the minimum criteria for an entry as established by the center. [/I][/COLOR]




CONDUCT OF INVESTIGATION. (a) The investigation may include:
(1) [COLOR="Red"] a visit to the child's home, unless the alleged abuse or neglect can be confirmed or clearly ruled out without a home visit;[/COLOR] and
(2) an interview with and examination of the subject child, which may include a medical, psychological, or psychiatric examination.
(b) The interview with and examination of the child may:
(1) be conducted at any reasonable time and place, including the child's home or the child's school;
(2) include the presence of persons the department or designated agency determines are necessary; and
(3) include transporting the child for purposes relating to the interview or investigation.
(b-1) Before the department may transport a child as provided by Subsection (b)(3), the department shall attempt to notify the parent or other person having custody of the child of the transport.
(c) The investigation may include an interview with the child's parents and an interview with and medical, psychological, or psychiatric examination of any child in the home.
(d) If, before an investigation is completed, (WHICH IMPLIES THE INVESTIGATION MUST BE STARTED AND IN PROCESS) the investigating agency believes that the immediate removal of a child from the child's home is necessary to protect the child from further abuse or neglect, the investigating agency shall file a petition or take other action under Chapter 262 to provide for the temporary care and protection of the child.
(e) An interview with a child conducted by the department during the investigation stage shall be audiotaped or videotaped. An interview with a child alleged to be a victim of physical abuse or sexual abuse conducted by an investigating agency other than the department shall be audiotaped or videotaped unless the investigating agency determines that good cause exists for not audiotaping or videotaping the interview in accordance with rules of the agency. Good cause may include, but is not limited to, such considerations as the age of the child and the nature and seriousness of the allegations under nvestigation. Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as prohibiting the investigating agency from audiotaping or videotaping an interview of a child on
any case for which such audiotaping or videotaping is not required under this subsection. The fact that the investigating agency failed to audiotape or videotape an interview is admissible at the trial of the offense that is the subject of the interview.
(f) A person commits an offense if the person is notified of the time of the transport of a child by the department and the location from which the transport is initiated and the person is present at the location when the transport is initiated and attempts to interfere with the department's investigation. An offense under this subsection is a Class B misdemeanor. It is an exception to the application of this subsection that the department requested the person to be present at the site of the transport.


§ 261.304. INVESTIGATION OF ANONYMOUS REPORT. (a) If the department receives an anonymous report of child abuse or neglect by a person responsible for a child's care, custody, or welfare, the department shall conduct a preliminary investigation to determine whether there is any evidence to corroborate the
report.
(b) An investigation under this section may include a visit to the child's home and an interview with and examination of the child and an interview with the child's parents. In addition, the department may interview any other person the department believes may have relevant information.
(c) Unless the department determines that there is some evidence to corroborate the report of abuse, the department may not conduct the thorough investigation required by this chapter or take any action against the person accused of abuse.



§ 261.307. INFORMATION RELATING TO INVESTIGATION
PROCEDURE. (a) As soon as possible after initiating an investigation of a parent or other person having legal custody of a child, the department shall provide to the person:
(1) a summary that:
(A) is brief and easily understood;
(B) is written in a language that the person understands, or if the person is illiterate, is read to the person in a language that the person understands; and
(C) contains the following information:
(i) the department's procedures for conducting an investigation of alleged child abuse or neglect, including:
(a) a description of the circumstances under which the department would request to remove the child from the home through the judicial system; and
(b) an explanation that the law requires the department to refer all reports of alleged child abuse or neglect to a law enforcement agency for a separate determination of whether a criminal violation occurred;

(2) if the department determines that removal of the child may be warranted, a proposed child placement resources form that:
(A) instructs the parent or other person having legal custody of the child to:
(i) complete and return the form to the department or agency; and
(ii) identify in the form three individuals who could be relative caregivers or designated caregivers, as those terms are defined by Section 264.751; and

In Texas, consensual sex with a child under the age of 17 is sexual assault if there is more than a three year difference in their ages. A number of FDLS girls came out of there, obviously below the age of consent, pregnant and with children in tow. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that a 16 year old girl with four kids is a victim. Mothers who are allowing this to occur are endangering their children.

The FDLS people are getting due process.

The Texas Rangers relied on the initial allegation and search warrant in good faith. There is a good faith exception to "illegal" search warrants.

The constitution does not address the rights of crime victims. Nonetheless, children have a right not to be raped.

And From the CPS Handbook, we have these guidelines:



From the CPS Handbook:

Allegations

The worker must record each of the reporter's allegations with regard to who is believed to be responsible for causing which type of abuse/neglect to each individual child. Specifically, the worker asks the reporter to identify:

1. The child or children at risk. Ask for each child's name, a description, and an address or some other way to locate the child. CPS staff cannot investigate a report unless they can locate and identify the child or children at risk.


Objectives

The objectives of the investigation and assessment are to:

· ensure child safety;

· determine whether abuse or neglect occurred;

· determine whether the children are at risk of abuse or neglect in the future;

· provide the family or children with needed safety services; and

· refer the family for services available in the community that reduce the risk of abuse and neglect or enhance the well-being of the family.

See Item 1124, Definition of Stages of Service, for an operational definition of the investigation and assessment stage.

Casework Process

To gather information needed to meet the objectives of the investigation and assessment, the worker:

· conducts interviews;

· performs background checks;

· gathers documentary information; and

· works with community partners.

CPS investigations are part of a flexible response system that provides four models for investigations based on the level of identified risk and safety concerns for the child. See Appendix 2000, Flexible Response System of Service Delivery.

Flexible Procedures for Investigations

At the beginning of the investigation, workers generally should assume that the investigation will be "thorough." If ensuing events indicate that the investigation does not require an exhaustive effort (that is, information gathered early on is sufficient to determine that the child is safe and not at risk), workers may regrade the investigation to "abbreviated." A worker's final option in the investigation procedure is to recommend closure of the investigation without completing either a thorough or abbreviated investigation if the family moves and cannot be located, or if the worker finds that CPS lacks jurisdiction in the case.


Thorough Investigations. The basic activities in a thorough investigation are as follows:

· Check the abuse and neglect backgrounds of each alleged victim, parent in the home, and alleged perpetrator;

· Interview and examine each alleged victim;

· Interview and examine other children in the home who may have been abused or neglected but were not named as alleged victims in the intake report;

· Interview each of the victims' parents who are living in the home;

· Interview each alleged perpetrator, unless an exception to this requirement is met;

· Visit the home, unless the worker can confirm or rule out the abuse or neglect without the visit; and

· Check the criminal background of the alleged perpetrator, unless the alleged perpetrator is also alleged to be a victim.

There are a number of supplemental case actions the worker may need to take in a thorough investigation, such as gathering documentary evidence, interviewing collaterals, etc.

In a thorough investigation, the worker may reach the following findings as appropriate to the information and evidence in the case:

· The disposition of the allegations of abuse or neglect may be "reason to believe," "unable to determine," or "ruled out"; and

· The risk finding may be "risk indicated," "risk controlled," "no significant factors," or "risk assessment not applicable."

The dispositions of "reason to believe" or "unable to determine," or the risk finding of "risk indicated" may only be made after completing a thorough investigation. Workers cannot make these dispositions or findings in any other type of investigation.

The worker must use the preponderance of evidence standard in making a finding that a person abused or neglected children.

During or after the investigation, the worker must provide services to keep children safe in the home, including family-based safety services or child removal. If services are not provided after the investigation, the worker must refer the family for services to control or reduce risk of abuse or neglect and to enhance the well-being of family members.

Abbreviated Investigations. The basic activities of an abbreviated investigation are:

· Check the abuse and neglect records of each alleged victim, parent in the home, and alleged perpetrator;

· Interview and examine each alleged victim;

· Interview at least one of the victims' parents living in the home;

· Visit the home, unless abuse and neglect can be ruled out without taking this action; and

· Check the criminal background of each alleged perpetrator, unless an alleged perpetrator is a child who is also alleged to be a victim.

If the above steps have been taken in a thorough investigation, then the worker may stop if it appears that the child is safe; abuse and neglect are ruled-out; risk is not significant, is controlled, or does not apply; and the worker has enough information to refer the family to any needed services.

It may not be appropriate to abbreviate the investigation if the alleged victim is not willing or able to communicate, the parents in the home are alleged perpetrators, and there are indicators that the case is serious.

The worker may not abbreviate the investigation when he or she finds indications that there are immediate threats of serious harm to the child, abuse or neglect has occurred (or it cannot be determined whether abuse or neglect occurred), or there is uncontrolled risk in the family.

The worker can close an investigation as "abbreviated" only if it meets one of the following disposition and risk finding combinations:

· "Ruled out" with "risk controlled";

· "Ruled out" with "no significant factors"; or

· "Ruled out" with "risk assessment not applicable."

The worker must provide any needed safety services during the investigation. When consistent with child safety, early in the investigation the worker must assist the parents in identifying services that may be needed for the family and child and refer the family to needed services.


-------------

For starters we have a violation of:
Ask reporter for an address or some other way to locate the child. Surely saying "I live in Eldorado" is not enough information to qualify for an original report.

Objective 2 is to determine if abuse occurred, for the one specific child/family that made the call. This brings a whole passel of problems for the agency, because they did not do a home visit, or interview any single child, prior to rounding up every single kid in a community.

According to the agency's own rules, this family - not the whole community mind you - should have been subject to a thorough investigation which includes checking the abuse and neglect backgrounds of each alleged victim, parent in the home, and alleged perpetrator; and interviewing and examining each alleged victim. Now, CPS runs into a bit of trouble because the "girl" identified in the phone call lives in Colorado and is 33, with a history of false phone calls, and the alleged perp hasn't stepped foot in Texas.

Face it guys, they didn't follow their own rules, they didn't abide by the State Laws, and they violated protections guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. I challenge any one who disagrees to prove me wrong. Show me where my logic is faulty, or show me a part of any of the legal guides that you think I am misinterpreting or don't understand.

Texas Constitution:
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 9 - SEARCHES AND SEIZURES
The people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers and possessions, from all unreasonable seizures or searches, and no warrant to search any place, or to seize any person or thing, shall issue without describing them as near as may be, nor without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation.

Section 19 - DEPRIVATION OF LIFE, LIBERTY, ETC.; DUE COURSE OF LAW
No citizen of this State shall be deprived of life, liberty, property, privileges or immunities, or in any manner disfranchised, except by the due course of the law of the land.

If the state of Texas believes that there are criminals in that community then why are they not abiding by this law:
Section 30 - RIGHTS OF CRIME VICTIMS
(a) A crime victim has the following rights:
(1) the right to be treated with fairness and with respect for the victim's dignity and privacy throughout the criminal justice process

Family Code
SUBTITLE B. PROTECTIVE ORDERS
CHAPTER 81. GENERAL PROVISIONS
§ 81.001. ENTITLEMENT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER. A court
shall render a protective order as provided by Section 85.001(b) if
the court finds that family violence has occurred and is likely to
occur in the future. This has not been done, but according to state law it is required.

Forgot these state laws....

Bicycle Junkie said:

In Texas, consensual sex with a child under the age of 17 is sexual assault if there is more than a three year difference in their ages. A number of FDLS girls came out of there, obviously below the age of consent, pregnant and with children in tow. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that a 16 year old girl with four kids is a victim. Mothers who are allowing this to occur are endangering their children.

The FDLS people are getting due process.

The Texas Rangers relied on the initial allegation and search warrant in good faith. There is a good faith exception to "illegal" search warrants.

The constitution does not address the rights of crime victims. Nonetheless, children have a right not to be raped.

Click to expand...

BJ;

Do you have links to your assertions?

The head CSP woman testified in court that they had not found that any of the children (all 400+ of them) had no medical evidence of having been abused in any way! Then the woman added that CPS was recommending that they be removed from their mothers "For fear of future Abuse"...

For possible future abuse!

Shoot! Someone might decide that some day you might rob a bank - and put you away to keep it from happening. Same difference

This is so frustrating! Infants being torn out of the arms of their mothers, toddlers being pulled away from their families, wives offering to leave their husbands in order to be with their children and yet, being turned down by a judge who is making it up as she goes along.

Since when are we convicted in this country for crimes that might happen in 15 years?

Since when are children taken away from parents without any charges being brought against the parents.

If indeed, there are five girls who have been abused - find the men who abused them - but leave the rest of the group alone!

There should be public OUTRAGE!!!!!

Thank you, Tigerlily!

I really, I mean REALLY, don't like to be in a position of justifying CPS actions, can't even believe I typed that, truly, and I just want to be clear that while it seems contradictory, it isn't, because I can't justify CPS actions and at the same time I have problems with CPS in general, if that makes sense LOL, and in particular with their authority, which is definitely above the law.

Having said that, in this case, how could they have done any of the things on the checklist when no one was cooperating? Names/birthdates/parents -- that's basic investigatory information, and for Conrad above, the right to remain silent is Miranda, which you are given after being arrested, no one has been arrested, this is supposed to be an investigation -- can't go any further until you can figure out who is who, how old they are, and who the parents are.

The warrants issued detailed the problems and physical barriers in getting into the buildings on the ranch, with a specific address and of 1,500+ acres IIRC, you keep saying this is a community, it isn't in a traditional sense, it is 3 families on a large ranch. CPS is charged with investigating allegations of abuse and that not only includes a specific child but it also includes all other children in the same home(s) -- if you don't know who is who and whom belongs to whom, how can you do that?