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SCI The Universe May Be Round—and That Would Be Bad News for Physicists
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  1. #1

    The Universe May Be Round—and That Would Be Bad News for Physicists

    Links at source....
    Posted for fair use...
    https://gizmodo.com/a-round-universe...1839647806/amp

    The Universe May Be Round—and That Would Be Bad News for Physicists

    Ryan F. Mandelbaum
    Wednesday 9:46am




    Scientists analyzing data from a defunct satellite say we should all consider that our universe might be round, rather than flat. The consequences, they explain in a new paper, could be crisis-inducing.

    Current theories of the universe, which describe its age, size, and how it evolves over time, are built around a flat spacetime. A new paper reiterates that data from the final Planck satellite release might be better explained by a round universe than a flat universe. Though not everyone agrees with the paper’s conclusions, the authors write that the consequences of assuming a flat universe when the universe is actually round could be dire.

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    “The point isn’t really that the universe is closed,” or round, the study’s corresponding author Alessandro Melchiorri from Sapienza University of Rome told Gizmodo. Instead, he explained that if Planck data seems to prefer a closed universe, then the potential consequences and how they might butt up against cosmologists’ most popular theory of the universe must be “seriously investigated,” lest the theory fall apart.

    The universe might come in one of three shapes: open, closed, or flat. Parallel lines in an open universe will always move farther apart; parallel lines in a closed universe will eventually meet (and single lines will eventually meet up with themselves); and parallel lines in a flat universe will stay parallel forever.

    Scientists already knew from Planck satellite data that mass in the universe was warping the the cosmic microwave background radiation, the farthest radiation our telescopes can see, more than the standard theory of cosmology predicted. Perhaps this is a statistical fluctuation or something wrong with the way scientists are interpreting the data—but it would be an incredibly unlikely statistical fluctuation, with less than 1 percent odds. Instead, the team led by Eleonora Di Valentino at the University of Manchester in the United Kingdom posited that the observation could be explained simply by a closed universe. This change, however, would put plenty of other measurements out of agreement with Planck’s data.

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    This tension falls on the heels of another important issue with the Planck data, called the Hubble tension. Experiments measuring the cosmic microwave background can’t seem to agree with experiments measuring closer objects when it comes to how fast the universe is expanding.

    This new paper “would be a *really* big deal if true,” Dan Hooper, head of the Theoretical Astrophysics Group at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory told Gizmodo in an email. But he wasn’t completely swayed. “Overall, my view is that in order to convince me of something that is this surprising, one would have to present some very compelling evidence. At this time, the evidence that is available doesn’t reach this high standard.”

    Others highlighted the fact that it may be too early to toss out what many scientists consider to be a core fact of the universe. “There are still things we don’t understand in the systematics,” meaning potential sources of error from the act of making the measurement, said Renée Hložek, professor at the Dunlap Institute for Astronomy & Astrophysics at the University of Toronto. She told Gizmodo that physicists need to be much surer about whether the issue arises from systematic errors or not before she’ll be convinced.


    After all, aside from the Planck data, the lambda-CDM model, which is the standard model of the universe, seems to work really well. Using just six parameters, it seems to fit our observations of the universe, albeit a flat universe, nearly perfectly.

    Melchiorri told Gizmodo that questioning prevailing theories is simply science, especially when, to his group, such a discrepancy appears to exist. “The point is to have an open mind,” he said. Several proposed experiments both on the ground and in space would take more measurements of the cosmic microwave background and either wipe out existing discrepancies as statistical flukes or show scientists that the universe is truly behaving in an unexpected manner.

    MORE IN ASTROPHYSICS

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    A New Way to Measure Cosmic Distance Could Help Solve a Frustrating Inconsistency About the Universe

    A New Experiment Narrows Potential Properties of Dark Energy Particle

    This Enormous Supernova Was Unlike Anything Seen Before

    Astronomers Spot Unprecedented Flashes From Our Galaxy's Black Hole

    Astronomers Uncover Ancient Treasure Trove of Massive Galaxies

    Ryan F. Mandelbaum
    Science writer at Gizmodo | I like physics and eating
    Thoughts are things. Thus I'm careful of the thoughts I think, & the company I keep.

  2. #2
    Well "DUH!!...I have yet to see a Flat explosion unless something was mashing it.
    Confederate American

  3. #3
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    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?

  4. #4
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    Remember Men in Blakc how the Newspapers and Conspiracy Rags were used to relay messages not for generl knowledge but in a place easilly accesible?

    And Y'all thought it was just a Movie.

    Think about the last minute or so of the movie....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTOBxlFjgc0

    "It ain't no secret I didn't get these scars falling over in church."


    "My Shoes are too Tight. But it is ok as I have forgotten how to Dance."

  5. #5
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    Round = Flat.

    They mean spherical.

    We are so *ucked. Even science writers are ignorant.

    o)<

    mike
    black is white...

  6. #6
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    We're living in a drop of water on God's 1966 convertible Corvette Stingray. And before you ask, yes it is red.
    Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon· hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon. - Listen! We of the Spear-Danes in the days of yore, of those clan-kings heard of their glory. How the worthy princes performed courageous deeds!

  7. #7
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    but what is beyond that bubble?

    It's bubbles, all the way down

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  8. #8
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    but what is beyond that bubble?

    The alien life form holding the snow globe we're all living in?
    “The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” – Robert E. Lee

  9. #9
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    Actually, it’s square.
    "...Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the cats of war..."
    It’s a real pisser when your belief system gets T-boned by reality.
    I’m not afraid of dying...I just don’t want to be there!
    ...sell your cloak, and buy a sword...Second Amendment 1.0

  10. #10
    well, flat earthers will be very disappointed . . . disappointed indeed.
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a pesky raven?
    It is difficult to stand idly by and watch the vacuum of ignorance being filled with lies

  11. #11
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    Don’t tell InebriatedChihuahua about this.
    "...Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the cats of war..."
    It’s a real pisser when your belief system gets T-boned by reality.
    I’m not afraid of dying...I just don’t want to be there!
    ...sell your cloak, and buy a sword...Second Amendment 1.0

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahra View Post
    but what is beyond that bubble?

    The alien life form holding the snow globe we're all living in?
    Maybe...just.....maybe.
    Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon· hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon. - Listen! We of the Spear-Danes in the days of yore, of those clan-kings heard of their glory. How the worthy princes performed courageous deeds!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssonb View Post
    Well "DUH!!...I have yet to see a Flat explosion unless something was mashing it.
    Flat universe theory was probably thought up by a flat earther!
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  14. #14
    if the universe isn't infinite, then it really isn't the universe
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a pesky raven?
    It is difficult to stand idly by and watch the vacuum of ignorance being filled with lies

  15. #15
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    I always thought it was slightly octagonal myself...

    Seriously, to think that man understands much more than the tiniest drop in the bucket of this vast, complex, and mysterious universe is delusional. Scientists would go insane if they found all of the things that might put their preconceived notions in a state of crisis.

  16. #16
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    Studied this formally in college. Always been rather bothered by the flat universers.

  17. #17
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    I would rather they waste money on this than interminable climate models that are always wrong.
    "...Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the cats of war..."
    It’s a real pisser when your belief system gets T-boned by reality.
    I’m not afraid of dying...I just don’t want to be there!
    ...sell your cloak, and buy a sword...Second Amendment 1.0

  18. #18
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    What is astounding....

    These scientists are being paid to formulate such hypothesis....

    For us simple earthlings, this really means nothing for we will never see the edges of the universe....

    And does it really matter at this time????

    Texican....

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?

    I figure it's milk chocolate.

    Best
    Doc

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?
    Another 8 years of Obama
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a pesky raven?
    It is difficult to stand idly by and watch the vacuum of ignorance being filled with lies

  21. #21
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    Roger Penrose thinks that the universe is cyclical but no-one really knows scientific theories are constantly being modified especially in areas such as cosmology, other disciplines are more defined such as chemistry etc.

    I argue take a look at a period in the past say 1900 where the scientific orthodox was completely different than today. Scientific orthodoxy still takes it's hold in the rejection of new ideas, in the late 1800s it was believed without any scientific evidence that there was an aether and if you questioned it you were png and couldn't get a job in a University. It was a myth, an assumption that was not true. I do not object to theories but they have to be proved beyond any doubt before they should be accepted as fact and even then they could be wrong. Often what is fact in science is just an approximation to reality.

  22. #22
    its kind of like flat earth theory
    it does not matter what you believe . . . because even if it is wrong, it is not likely to have a negative impact on life nor a positive impact of surviving life.
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a pesky raven?
    It is difficult to stand idly by and watch the vacuum of ignorance being filled with lies

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?
    The mind of God

    Revelation 6:8
    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    http://www.mdsoptics.com

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmomaha View Post
    The mind of God
    And He is Good.
    Recently a friend told me I am delusional, I almost fell off my Unicorn!

  25. #25
    Remember folks, round, flat, it's all just a theory.
    Mike

  26. #26
    Mmm. Bubbles. Chocolate bubbles. what a wonderful world!

    ...the theories don't excite me, it was just an excuse to look at the beautiful starlit sky and soak up those amazing colors!
    Thoughts are things. Thus I'm careful of the thoughts I think, & the company I keep.

  27. #27
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    It's impossible for the universe to be flat.

    Because the cats would have knocked everything off of The Edge by now.

    Words to your Mommy. . . .
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    It's impossible for the universe to be flat.

    Because the cats would have knocked everything off of The Edge by now.

    Words to your Mommy. . . .
    You are SO right! What the heck is it with cats, anyways?? If they aren't scootching things off edges, or fighting for control of one's pen, they're watching you sleep.
    Thoughts are things. Thus I'm careful of the thoughts I think, & the company I keep.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jward View Post
    You are SO right! What the heck is it with cats, anyways?? If they aren't scootching things off edges, or fighting for control of one's pen, they're watching you sleep.
    Cats are Evil and All Knowing Creatures.
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by raven View Post
    well, flat earthers will be very disappointed . . . disappointed indeed.
    Flat earthers don't believe much of anything scientists say - especially anything NASA says.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?
    More.



    I remember lying in my little bed when I was 4 or 5, and a lady's voice came and said, "Remember The Big and The Little." Then she showed me a universe shaped like a donut. I am not making this up.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Roger Penrose thinks that the universe is cyclical but no-one really knows scientific theories are constantly being modified especially in areas such as cosmology, other disciplines are more defined such as chemistry etc.

    I argue take a look at a period in the past say 1900 where the scientific orthodox was completely different than today. Scientific orthodoxy still takes it's hold in the rejection of new ideas, in the late 1800s it was believed without any scientific evidence that there was an aether and if you questioned it you were png and couldn't get a job in a University. It was a myth, an assumption that was not true. I do not object to theories but they have to be proved beyond any doubt before they should be accepted as fact and even then they could be wrong. Often what is fact in science is just an approximation to reality.
    You are misusing the word theory for hypothesis.
    In science a theory doesn't mean what it means to joe 6 pack or 6 pints since your in the UK
    “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”
    D. H. Lawrence

  33. #33
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    Here is what they are actually talking about, explained by NASA.
    It's taught in high school nowadays.
    Matter causes space time to be curved.
    If the totality of the universe curvature is flat, it will expand forever, but at the "end" of forever it will stop expanding.
    If the curvature is positive it will eventually stop expanding and contract back on itself.
    If the curvature is negative it will go on expanding forever.
    Right now the galaxies furthest away from us seem to be traveling away from us faster than the closer galaxies.

    The further away the faster they seem to be traveling away.
    Whether it is actually true or appears that way for reasons we don't yet understand is anybody's guess.



    https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs...uestion35.html


    What shape is the Universe?
    One of the most profound insights of General Relativity was the conclusion that mass caused space to curve, and objects traveling in that curved space have their paths deflected, exactly as if a force had acted on them. If space itself is curved, there are three general possibilities for the geometry of the universe. Each of these possibilites is tied to the amount of mass (and thus to the total strength of gravitation) in the universe, and each implies a different past and future for the universe.
    First, let's look at shapes and curvatures for a two-dimensional surface. Mathematicians distinguish 3 qualitatively different classes of curvature, as illustrated in the following image:
    The flat surface at the left is said to have zero curvature, the spherical surface is said to have positive curvature, and the saddle-shaped surface is said to have negative curvature.
    The preceding is not too difficult to visualize, but General Relativity asserts that space itself (not just an object in space) can be curved, and furthermore, the space of General Relativity has 3 space-like dimensions and one time dimension, not just two as in our example above. This IS difficult to visualize! Nevertheless, it can be described mathematically by the same methods that mathematicians use to describe the 2-dimensional surfaces. So what do the three types of curvature - zero, positive, and negative -mean to the universe?
    • If space has negative curvature, there is insufficient mass to cause the expansion of the universe to stop. In such a case, the universe has no bounds, and will expand forever. This is called an open universe.
    • If space has no curvature (i.e, it is flat), there is exactly enough mass to cause the expansion to stop, but only after an infinite amount of time. Thus, the universe has no bounds and will also expand forever, but with the rate of expansion gradually approaching zero after an infinite amount of time. This is termed a flat universe or a Euclidian universe (because the usual geometry of non-curved surfaces that we learn in high school is called Euclidian geometry).
    • If space has positive curvature, there is more than enough mass to stop the present expansion of the universe. The universe in this case is not infinite, but it has no end (just as the area on the surface of a sphere is not infinite but there is no point on the sphere that could be called the "end"). The expansion will eventually stop and turn into a contraction. Thus, at some point in the future the galaxies will stop receding from each other and begin approaching each other as the universe collapses on itself. This is called a closed universe.
    The geometry of the universe is often expressed in terms of the "density parameter", which is defined as the ratio of the actual density of the universe to the critical density that would be required to cause the expansion to stop. Thus, if the universe is flat (contains just the amount of mass to close it) the density parameter is exactly 1, if the universe is open with negative curvature the density parameter lies between 0 and 1, and if the universe is closed with positive curvature the density parameter is greater than 1.
    The density parameter determined from various methods such as calculating the number of baryons created in the big bang, counting stars in galaxies, and observing the dynamics of galaxies both near and far. With some rather large uncertainties, all methods point to the universe being open (i.e. the density parameter is less than one). But we need to remember that it is unlikely that we have detected all of the matter in the universe yet.
    The current theoretical belief (because it is predicted by the theory of cosmic inflation) is that the universe is flat, with exactly the amount of mass required to stop the expansion (the corresponding average critical density that would just stop the is called the closure density). Recent observations (such as the BOOMERANG and MAXIMA cosmic microwave background radiation results, and various supernova observations) imply that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. If so, this strongly suggests that the universe is geometrically "flat".
    In reality, determining the value of the density parameter and thus the ultimate fate of the universe remains one of the major unsolved problems in modern cosmology. The recently (June 30, 2001) launched MAP mission will be able to measure the value definitively within the next 5 years.
    “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”
    D. H. Lawrence

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    So we live in a really big bubble, but what is beyond that bubble?
    Another big bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    Cats are Evil and All Knowing Creatures.
    I call mine Minions....
    Recently a friend told me I am delusional, I almost fell off my Unicorn!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauldingbabe View Post
    I call mine Minions....
    Cats know everything.

    Attached Images
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    More.



    I remember lying in my little bed when I was 4 or 5, and a lady's voice came and said, "Remember The Big and The Little." Then she showed me a universe shaped like a donut. I am not making this up.
    Have you ever developed a theory, or at a hypothesis, about this voice, what the words mean, and why you are to remember?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squib View Post
    Have you ever developed a theory, or at a hypothesis, about this voice, what the words mean, and why you are to remember?
    Well, as simply as I can: I was raised in an atheist household and this meant there was more to life than what my parents said. As an adult, I have several times been spoken to by a male voice. I don't want to explain why those happened, but if it ever happens to you, you'll understand. Everything's personal to the individual and their experience. For some reason the lady thought I needed to know those things at that time, I guess. I never questioned it.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  39. #39
    Cat's don't like things, and prove that they are evil minions who are all knowing. RT 5:21
    ...and yes, I know. I did another thread drift. Off to the dog house i go...but...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izRZxhqfk0Y
    Thoughts are things. Thus I'm careful of the thoughts I think, & the company I keep.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Well, as simply as I can: I was raised in an atheist household and this meant there was more to life than what my parents said. As an adult, I have several times been spoken to by a male voice. I don't want to explain why those happened, but if it ever happens to you, you'll understand. Everything's personal to the individual and their experience. For some reason the lady thought I needed to know those things at that time, I guess. I never questioned it.

    Thank you for responding, but I guess I always wondered when someone has an experience like that, how can you tell the voice speaks truth vs falsehood, or the entity is benevolent rather than malevolent?

    As a Christian, of course I believe in the unseen realm. Beings inhabit that realm, both good and evil. They are greater in power and might than I...so I always wondered if such a thing happened to me, how could I verify what it’s intention are. Outside of comparing a claim to Scripture, how do you know?

    Thank you, Mzkitty!

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