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OT/MISC The older I get, the more paranoid about the nurture of our children.
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  1. #1

    The older I get, the more paranoid about the nurture of our children.

    Warning! Kute Grandkid Story! Check Gag Reflex!

    In 1862, my grt grandparents with son 3 yrs, daughter, 9 months, emigrated to Chicago from what was then known as Bohemia, now the Czech Republic. According to family legend, the 3yr old boy learned English so rapidly that he became a great help to his mother when shopping. Smallpox took him and his sister some time after arrival. Her shopping crippled, his mother mourned his loss to the end of her days which is why I heard of it.

    As Bohemian is a Slavic language, English a Romance language, there is no easy transfer so I figured it was just as it appeared, a family legend. That is until my youngest grandson was born.

    At age 15 months, his mother took him to Easter Mass. She brought him home, set him in the family room and went into the kitchen. So she hears a strange noise, goes to the family room and there is the 15 month old singing the Alleluia, perfect pronunciation and pitch. She got it on the ipad so we saw it. Uncanny.

    At age 22 months, his other grandmother came in and said: That kid just old me that yesterday, he had a cup of hot chocolate with marshmallows. He knows the difference between yesterday and today and he pronounced all the words in a perfect sentence clearly and correctly.

    At 30 months, he can identify the letters and their names. One of these days, he will figure out that the bunches of letters are words and will go on from there.

    Give him another 15 months and there is no doubt that you could drop him in Croatia and given the proper mentor, in a short time he would come up with a working knowledge of the language.

    His father says the biggest problem he has is that he is dealing with a kid with the vocabulary of a 7 year old, except he is only 2 yrs old.

    So is he unique? Most certainly. But through the years, I have met more than one with unique capabilities and each case, their skills were never developed.. So I am afraid that there are all kinds of kids out there with abilities equivalent to my grandson but never developed because:

    1. Some 40% donít have a Daddy that reads them to sleep every night from the time they could crawl.

    2. And more than that probably donít have a Mommy that restricts them to one hour screen time per day.

    My grandson has both.

    The loss to our culture has be incalculable.





    .
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  2. #2
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    Your grandson isn't really all that unusual -- I could tell similar stories about several children in our family. But you are right that reading aloud to children, and restricting TV (or not having TV at all -- I would include all electronic gadgets in that category), are a huge help in maintaining that intellectual growth. I also think that oldest children have an advantage, because at least for a while they have all of Mommy and Daddy's attention.

    Kathleen
    Behold, these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him.
    Job 26:14

    wickr ID freeholder45

  3. #3

  4. #4
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    You can have wealth and vast riches untold
    Casks of silver and coffers of gold.
    Richer than I you can never be,
    I had a mother who read to me.

    It's my mother's favorite verse. She was never the poetry type, but that one still gets her.

  5. #5
    If it helps . . .
    My grandson is 18. Graduated High School in May. Always played video games till very late. Always hard to wake in the morning.
    And then "it" happened.
    He fell in love . . . with a car . . . a Corvette.
    He had to have one.
    So, on his own (with a little mentoring - smile, remember names, volunteer for the dirty jobs) he got his first job at "Main Event". And I told him "As soon as you are there six months, find another job. He did. Was hired at Chick Fillet. I told him to find his next job in three months, but he lingered a bit until he was 18. And got his third job (still in High School) at Discount Tire.
    After high school he started in an auto mechanic tech school. And then, whim, he applied for his latest job - He is at Sewell BMW in Grapevine.

    He called me today. He had taken out the MAF Sensor and was cleaning it. Didn't fix the issue and we were trying to figure it out long distance.
    Sorry, did I mention the MAF sensor came out of his . . . .Corvette. Corvette guy working at a BMW place - weird.

    And I was bitching out the house painting I was having to do. HE tells ME "be glad you have work to do."
    That little shit.
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a pesky raven?
    It is difficult to stand idly by and watch the vacuum of ignorance being filled with lies

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeholder View Post
    Your grandson isn't really all that unusual -- I could tell similar stories about several children in our family. But you are right that reading aloud to children, and restricting TV (or not having TV at all -- I would include all electronic gadgets in that category), are a huge help in maintaining that intellectual growth. I also think that oldest children have an advantage, because at least for a while they have all of Mommy and Daddy's attention.

    Kathleen
    Hard to say what is unusual. Had a 2nd cousin that at age 12 would listen to a tune on the radio and then play in on the piano, both hands. What is unusual is that he had no lessons and no piano in the house. He had picked it up picking away on other pianos. He never followed up.

    Another in grade school could sketch a face as good as I have ever seen. He never went anywhere with it either.

    Lots of talent out there laying fallow. Capitalism is supposed to discover these people but quite often it doesn't.

    And the way the families are going, less and less will be discovered.
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  7. #7
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    In one of my all-time favorite books, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, the author talks about the 2 kinds of parenting. One kind mostly leaves kids alone to discover their interests and talents along the way. My husband is like that. I'm the other kids of parent- expose kids to all kinds of experiences from whale watching to rugby to painting to mariachi music, and when they find one that piques their interest, work to make it happen. That might besewing a costume, driving to practice every week, or bartering with the piano teacher for lessons. All of my kids got the best possible chance to develop into their best adult. I'm not surprised my youngest daughter, who at age 7 went trick or treating as an attorney (skirt, blouse, hair bun, fake glasses and a briefcase for candy), is working concurrently on the BA in business and masters in elementary education. But they need encouragement and guidance. Those example of kids who were good at something but never went far with it were maybe never given the opportunities they needed to develop. Not a criticism, that's life. If I had known about Egyptologists or architecture in high school I may have pursued those interests. Instead, I poured myself into my children, and now as much as allowed, into my grandchildren.
    Excuses are the tools of the incompetent. ~ Thirsty Rollins

  8. #8
    The "learning curve" between 0-6yrs is unbelievable. If that could be continued to 18 yrs, we would have a country filled with genius's. Unfortunately if the parents have not choked it off, the school will.

    My daughter and hubby spent considerable coin for a house in the 'best' school district in their fair city, only to find it was the 'best' because all the others were very much worse. So Plan B: Parochial School. It does not have many of the support systems of the public school. (Which turned out to be negative rather than positive) But it has enough in the way of concerned teachers interested in their pupils so they are satisfied.
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troke View Post
    Hard to say what is unusual. Had a 2nd cousin that at age 12 would listen to a tune on the radio and then play in on the piano, both hands. What is unusual is that he had no lessons and no piano in the house. He had picked it up picking away on other pianos. He never followed up.

    Another in grade school could sketch a face as good as I have ever seen. He never went anywhere with it either.

    Lots of talent out there laying fallow. Capitalism is supposed to discover these people but quite often it doesn't.

    And the way the families are going, less and less will be discovered.
    Capitalism has a way of only discovering talent that makes money. Face drawing and piano by ear really doesn't pay. Just ask anybody with a trunk novel or screenplay.

  10. #10
    ..Face drawing and piano by ear really doesn't pay.... And as I stated, it didn't and they went nowhere.

    But because of lack of nurture, did we miss out on a Gershwin and Rembrandt?

    There is a story going around about a nine year old girl who can write operas. I bet that was not an accident.
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  11. #11
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    I have a cousin who could hear a song once or twice and then play it on the piano -- she's just retired from teaching school most of her adult life, and has probably done a lot more good for more people doing that than she ever could have as a professional pianist. One of my brothers was the same with the harmonica when he was little -- hear a song and play it. (We didn't have a piano, just a radio.) One of my mother's cousins was an excellent painter (artist type, not house painter). Another of Mom's cousins was both an excellent painter and a really good musician -- guitar and piano. He worked for the Forest Service most of his adult life, and ran their small farm. I don't see anything wrong with having some special talent and also a more mundane job. We need both. Mom's grandfather was a really good fiddle player, and also a farmer. Of course, people used to make all of their own entertainment, so those musical talents got brought out just by being used around home and in the community. It's not necessary for people with talents to be national superstars. Sometimes they are 'just' superstars to their own family or community.

    Kathleen
    Behold, these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him.
    Job 26:14

    wickr ID freeholder45

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Troke View Post
    Had a 2nd cousin that at age 12 would listen to a tune on the radio and then play in on the piano, both hands. What is unusual is that he had no lessons and no piano in the house. He had picked it up picking away on other pianos. He never followed up.

    Another in grade school could sketch a face as good as I have ever seen. He never went anywhere with it either.

    Lots of talent out there laying fallow. Capitalism is supposed to discover these people but quite often it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacknarwhal View Post
    Capitalism has a way of only discovering talent that makes money. Face drawing and piano by ear really doesn't pay. Just ask anybody with a trunk novel or screenplay.
    The well-worn term, "starving artist," comes to mind.


    intothegoodnight
    "Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

    ó Dylan Thomas, "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troke View Post
    ..Face drawing and piano by ear really doesn't pay.... And as I stated, it didn't and they went nowhere.

    But because of lack of nurture, did we miss out on a Gershwin and Rembrandt?

    There is a story going around about a nine year old girl who can write operas. I bet that was not an accident.
    Quote Originally Posted by intothatgoodnight View Post
    The well-worn term, "starving artist," comes to mind.


    intothegoodnight
    We probably did. And not just A Gershwin or A Rembrandt, either, but probably whole bundles of them who couldn't afford to promote themselves sufficiently or make the right connection to someone who could.

    How to fix this problem is a different matter.

  14. #14
    Eric Hofer points out that during the Renaissance, merchants competed with each other in finding new artistic talent. Thus, it is said that one spotted a youth drawing perfect circles on walls with a piece of charcoal. Caravaggio (IIRC)

    Be kind of nice if some of our wealthy did the same thing. As you said, gobs of talent out there laying fallow.
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  15. #15
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    We had a 28 acre farm & farm stand on the major highway between Detroit and the capital, Lansing(it was two lane back in 1954).
    I was nine years old. My summer job was to SELL the produce and other stuff, But almost nobody stopped, probably because it was on a dangerous curve.
    I watched hundreds of pounds of fresh tomatoes spoil.
    I was extremely heartbroken at the waste. I did not sell even one.
    Then, I had heard at school (one room country school- one teacher 6 grades) that when frozen, the cells in vegetables burst from water expansion. With all day just to sit and watch cars go by, I thought and thought about that and finally told my mom... you know.... I think if you COMBINED FREEZING WITH DRYING you could preserve vegetables faster and better than freezing or drying!! BUT....nobody would listen, because I was just a kid, what did I know they said. I will never forget that. I think God gives ideas to lots of people, some fall on fallow ground, some are put to work!!

    I did sell every egg we had to one lady who did stop.

    I also had a strikingly precocious child. Not only was she far, far advanced for her age she was BIG and LOOKED much older than she was, being taken for a 4-5 year old from the time she was a little over 2. She "ran away" to school at 3. She also "ran away" at 3, stealing the neighbor boy's chain driven TRICYCLE to joy ride a mile to the park she wanted to go to near our home. She (at 5am) was trying to make "hot chocolate" at 18 months and had tried using every brown powder in the kitchen which she used step stools and standing on top of the stove and counters to reach, using the seat of a chair as her countertop. She always did all her mischief in the very very early mornings, between 3am and 6:30 am when we got up. After she was just a toddler, she would rather read her own fairy tales (the kind with a moral to the story) rather than have anyone read TO her.

    I don't think reading fiction to children, with a very few exceptions, does them much real benefit.
    Much better to read something that TEACHES them something they wouldn't get in school or read biographies of famous and successful leaders, inventors, explorers, scientists, doctors or heroes, or how to cook or start a campfire, or fish, or hunt, identify animal tracks, or how to can or dry food or how to plant and maintain a garden or identify edible wild plants, nuts, fruit, animals, and the names of trees and which wood is which and what each is good for. How to make a net, which bird or snake is which, how crows can be your watchdog, and a million other things like why you must wash off after swimming in a pond or lake. How to purify water in several ways. etc.
    Of course, a Bible, the gospels and particularly the BOOK OF PROVERBS written to children and those wanting to grow in wisdom is the best and first book to introduce to children.
    Last edited by ainitfunny; 10-22-2019 at 03:29 PM.
    Want a NEW LIFE, to be "born again?" Your acceptance of Jesus's death for you, by proxy, on the Cross must include your understanding, consenting/ratifying that YOU AGREE that means YOU, your will, your way died. When you do, then you become "born again", a new creation, filled with His Holy Spirit, Jesus and his eternal life will dwell within you as his temple. He died for all, but not all will RATIFY His sacrifice for them.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troke View Post
    Hard to say what is unusual. Had a 2nd cousin that at age 12 would listen to a tune on the radio and then play in on the piano, both hands. What is unusual is that he had no lessons and no piano in the house. He had picked it up picking away on other pianos. He never followed up.

    Another in grade school could sketch a face as good as I have ever seen. He never went anywhere with it either.

    Lots of talent out there laying fallow. Capitalism is supposed to discover these people but quite often it doesn't.

    And the way the families are going, less and less will be discovered.
    My sister could do that. And not just with popular tunes. She could sit down and play Bach. In high school she was the substitute for whomever was missing that day in the woodwinds section.
    "Freedom is not something to be secured in any one moment of time. We must struggle to preserve it every day. And freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."
    -Ronald Reagan

  17. #17
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    Did you worry about kids during the Depression? My parents were Depression kids and tough as it was, they made it. Lots of others did too.

    So will the current generation, even if they have it hard as well.

    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainitfunny View Post

    I don't think reading fiction to children, with a very few exceptions, does them much real benefit.
    Much better to read something that TEACHES them something they wouldn't get in school or read biographies of famous and successful leaders, inventors, explorers, scientists, doctors or heroes, or how to cook or start a campfire, or fish, or hunt, identify animal tracks, or how to can or dry food or how to plant and maintain a garden or identify edible wild plants, nuts, fruit, animals, and the names of trees and which wood is which and what each is good for. How to make a net, which bird or snake is which, how crows can be your watchdog, and a million other things like why you must wash off after swimming in a pond or lake. How to purify water in several ways. etc.
    Of course, a Bible, the gospels and particularly the BOOK OF PROVERBS written to children and those wanting to grow in wisdom is the best and first book to introduce to children.
    ...sweet mercy, this is horrifying. Your plan is to literally destroy imagination. You propose reducing children to Chinese-level automata with survival skills.

    I'd give you the Billy Madison "may God have mercy on your soul" speech in response but my conscience forbids. I can, however, insist that this plan represents the ravings of a lunatic.

  19. #19
    Might be something to it. It is said that Robert E. Lee refused to read novels because he thought they weakened the mind.
    "The misfortune of many is the consolation of fools" Ancient proverb

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troke View Post
    Might be something to it. It is said that Robert E. Lee refused to read novels because he thought they weakened the mind.
    This from the general who arguably lost the war for his country (the CSA) because he didn't want to be "rude" at a few critical times (when he arguably had the moral duty to SHOOT disobedient subordinates, i.e., when Jeb Stuart ran off glory hounding instead of doing his JOB reconning before Gettysburg)? Lee had class, but the South would have been much better served if (foul-mouthed and uncouth to the max) NB Forrest had been in supreme command after 1861.

    BTW, Blacknarwhal absolutely has the right of it here. An intellectual world without books like Atlas Shrugged, the whole pre-1980 science fiction collection, Kipling, Robert Service, etc., would be a much poorer and less able one.
    Proud member Alt-Right group "Scientists For Trump". (Smart Americans know he's right.)
    A man should only take a wife whose Bible includes Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Colossians, Malachi, Isaiah, Ephesians, Corinthians, Hebrews, Timothy, Titus, Proverbs, Mark, Peter & Revelation. Ecclesiastes 7:28 (NIV) tells him the odds.

  21. #21
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    Kipling is essential reading for the upcoming festivities.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacknarwhal View Post
    ...sweet mercy, this is horrifying. Your plan is to literally destroy imagination. You propose reducing children to Chinese-level automata with survival skills.

    I'd give you the Billy Madison "may God have mercy on your soul" speech in response but my conscience forbids. I can, however, insist that this plan represents the ravings of a lunatic.

    Children are born with imagination, it is a major part of their young life. I think it is what feeds their curiosity and fuels their creative juices. But it takes not imposing too much of other people's creativity upon their own. Imagination wants time for a child to think, to be alone sometimes and muse over what they have experienced and learned. Most kids nowadays have practically NO QUIET TIME when they are NOT by way of TV, music, scheduled activities, computer and internet, and electronic games being made a receiver for other people's thoughts and ideas, without adequate time to mentally digest what they have already been exposed to in the way of input, let alone exercising their own imagination.
    Last edited by ainitfunny; 10-22-2019 at 11:29 PM.
    Want a NEW LIFE, to be "born again?" Your acceptance of Jesus's death for you, by proxy, on the Cross must include your understanding, consenting/ratifying that YOU AGREE that means YOU, your will, your way died. When you do, then you become "born again", a new creation, filled with His Holy Spirit, Jesus and his eternal life will dwell within you as his temple. He died for all, but not all will RATIFY His sacrifice for them.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainitfunny View Post
    Children are born with imagination, it is a major part of their young life. I think it is what feeds their curiosity and fuels their creative juices. But it takes not imposing too much of other people's creativity upon their own. Imagination wants time for a child to think, to be alone sometimes and muse over what they have experienced and learned. Most kids nowadays have practically NO QUIET TIME when they are NOT by way of TV, music, scheduled activities, computer and internet, and electronic games being made a receiver for other people's thoughts and ideas, without adequate time to mentally digest what they have already been exposed to in the way of input1, let alone exercising their own imagination.
    Agreed with you there. I think that children should have the same access to television that they legally have to tobacco, e.g., not til after driving age.
    Proud member Alt-Right group "Scientists For Trump". (Smart Americans know he's right.)
    A man should only take a wife whose Bible includes Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Colossians, Malachi, Isaiah, Ephesians, Corinthians, Hebrews, Timothy, Titus, Proverbs, Mark, Peter & Revelation. Ecclesiastes 7:28 (NIV) tells him the odds.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ainitfunny View Post
    Children are born with imagination, it is a major part of their young life. I think it is what feeds their curiosity and fuels their creative juices. But it takes not imposing too much of other people's creativity upon their own. Imagination wants time for a child to think, to be alone sometimes and muse over what they have experienced and learned. Most kids nowadays have practically NO QUIET TIME when they are NOT by way of TV, music, scheduled activities, computer and internet, and electronic games being made a receiver for other people's thoughts and ideas, without adequate time to mentally digest what they have already been exposed to in the way of input, let alone exercising their own imagination.
    Both you, ainitfunny, and Blacknarwhal are correct, in my estimation.

    Unmentioned are the children's fairy tales, with important messages of good and evil, for example. Mother Goose nursery rhymes also use a more abstract method to instruct.

    Books - words - can be read and internalized/imagined according to the word-framing of the narrative - the reader is encouraged to imagine the finer details via their own mind's eye interpretation.

    Movies, online streaming video, TV - moving pictures illustrating verbal dialog - represents a pre-canned interpretation that the director wishes to promote - not too much wiggle room for the viewer to deviate outside of that pre-determined/intended narrative.


    intothegoodnight
    "Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

    ó Dylan Thomas, "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainitfunny View Post
    Children are born with imagination, it is a major part of their young life. I think it is what feeds their curiosity and fuels their creative juices. But it takes not imposing too much of other people's creativity upon their own. Imagination wants time for a child to think, to be alone sometimes and muse over what they have experienced and learned. Most kids nowadays have practically NO QUIET TIME when they are NOT by way of TV, music, scheduled activities, computer and internet, and electronic games being made a receiver for other people's thoughts and ideas, without adequate time to mentally digest what they have already been exposed to in the way of input, let alone exercising their own imagination.
    ...oh, so you're looking to limit fiction in the same way screen time gets limited. Hm.

    Can't say I agree, but your limits are at least reasonable.

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