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POL POLİTİCS 'Turkey pulling out of NATO, body blow to alliance' (if if if )
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  1. #1
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    POLİTİCS 'Turkey pulling out of NATO, body blow to alliance' (if if if )

    POLİTİCS
    'Turkey pulling out of NATO, body blow to alliance'
    US should leave door open in its relations with Turkey and develop long-term strategy, says RAND's Stephen Flanagan


    News Service
    09:40 June 11, 2019
    AA

    Turkey may pull out of NATO if unacceptable U.S. demands and threats continue, dealing the alliance a possibly fatal blow, an analyst has warned.

    "Turkey’s military is second only to the U.S. in troop strength. Pulling out of NATO would be a significant body blow to the alliance," Stephen Lendman wrote in a Sunday article for the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG), a Canadian-based nonprofit.

    "If unacceptable U.S. demands and threats continue, it [withdrawal] may be inevitable," Lendman said.

    He made the comments at a time when the strategic future of Turkish-U.S. relations is facing a number of trials.

    In December 2017, Turkey agreed to buy Russian S-400 air defense systems after its 2013 initiatives to purchase U.S.-made Patriot missiles fell on deaf ears.

    During the height of the expanding Syrian civil war that threatened Turkey's southern borders, Washington was aware of Turkey's need for an air defense system, yet proposed an exorbitant price for its Patriots.

    In an interview this April with Defense and Aerospace Report, Stephen Flanagan, senior political scientist at RAND Corporation, a policy think tank, said the U.S. had "concerns" about Turkey at the time.

    In 2013, the U.S. assumed that Turkey would be unable to secure its defense needs through other vendors, Russia in particular, since the two countries were at odds with each other over the Syrian war until 2016.

    Turkey later shopped for European alternatives, especially Italian, but in 2017 when Russian offered its state-of-the art S-400s at a reasonable price and with a fair contract, the Turkish government signed the deal.

    Since then, although Turkish officials have repeatedly stressed their commitment to NATO’s mission and said Turkey is not choosing Russia over NATO, Washington has pursued a policy of issuing threats.

    That policy reached a new low this week when the U.S. State Department gave Turkey a July 31 deadline to suspend the S-400 deal, or else face consequences.

    Rebuffing the deadline, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the S-400 issue is a "done deal" and "backtracking is out of the question," while Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said: "No one can force Turkey to choose between NATO and Russia."

    - 'Long-term strategy needed in relations with Turkey'

    Flanagan said he believes the U.S. should "leave a door open" in its relations with Turkey and develop a long-term strategy.

    He explained: “If you look back to the last elections and including the recent local elections in Turkey, in June of 2016 … almost 47% of the Turkish population voted against the government's policies … And those main opposition parties, the CHP [Republican People’s Party] and the Iyi Party, the ‘Good’ Party, ran on a platform of improving relations with the United States, NATO and the European Union."

    "So I think it’s important that we have a long-term strategy for dealing with Turkey, that I think we will see change," said Flanagan, expressing hope that the political landscape in Turkey will change in future elections.

    "Turkey remains a very divided country … I think Turkey is not on an inevitable trajectory towards becoming aligned or developing a so-called Eurasian option or becoming really non-aligned," he added.

    On Turkey's commitment to NATO, Flanagan said Turkey is contributing its fair share to NATO in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

    https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/tu...liance-3482941


    OP...personally, I would like to see the Turks outa Nato, They have not proved to be an asset , and as their gov morphs, it will become more apparent,

  2. #2
    Pirate wrote, "OP...personally, I would like to see the Turks outa Nato, They have not proved to be an asset , and as their gov morphs, it will become more apparent."

    Personally, I'd like to see an end to NATO. NATO was conceived as a foil to the Warsaw Pact and Soviet expansion. Both threats are long since gone and the interests of the US and other NATO members have become much different than they were fifty or seventy years ago.

    Best
    Doc

  3. #3
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    NATO needs to go away. The Soviet Union did ...
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  4. #4
    Two schools of thought on Turkey leaving NATO.

    1. They're not much of an ally, but we do have bases there. For force projection into the middle east and Iran, and the southern regions of Russia having the Turkish access is valuable.

    2. Having Turkey in NATO helps us keep an eye on, and a potential clamp on movements of the Russian Black Sea fleet. What would be the access to Bosphorous strait if Turkey denies access to NATO navies?

  5. #5
    I think a complete conversion of Turkey is inevitable. Whether we keep them In nato or not. Not giving them our best weapons systems may be in our best interests

  6. #6
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    NATO is obsolete as is the UN
    Tax the rich, feed the poor, til there are, rich no more - Ten Years After
    Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot. -JCSS
    Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can't give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody.

  7. #7
    We have LOTS of nukes stored on bases within Turkish soil. Do you think that they will peacefully give them up?

  8. #8
    Turkey leaving NATO just confirms prophecy, which was given to humans by the Anunnaki, who were Clairvoyant.
    It isn't the job of our government to take care of you, but to create and maintain the environment in which you can take care of yourself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc1 View Post
    Pirate wrote, "OP...personally, I would like to see the Turks outa Nato, They have not proved to be an asset , and as their gov morphs, it will become more apparent."

    Personally, I'd like to see an end to NATO. NATO was conceived as a foil to the Warsaw Pact and Soviet expansion. Both threats are long since gone and the interests of the US and other NATO members have become much different than they were fifty or seventy years ago.

    Best
    Doc
    Right on, Doc1.
    Don't start nuthin', then won't be nuthin'

  10. #10
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    Who would the Turks align with theologically, Iran or the House of Saud?
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

    Deplorable


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy_wave View Post
    Turkey leaving NATO just confirms prophecy, which was given to humans by the Anunnaki, who were Clairvoyant.
    Complete and utter BULL SH*T!

    Godlike Productions is where one finds imaginary fantasies like this...NOT HERE @ TB2K!!!!!!
    Last edited by JF&P; 06-11-2019 at 11:28 PM.
    JOHN 3:16 / John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you FREE.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JF&P View Post
    Complete and utter BULL SH*T!

    Godlike Productions is where one finds imaginary fantasies like this...NOT HERE @ TB2K!!!!!!

    Turkey will align with Russia (Magog).

    Ezekiel 38 - 39
    It isn't the job of our government to take care of you, but to create and maintain the environment in which you can take care of yourself.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy_wave View Post
    Turkey leaving NATO just confirms prophecy, which was given to humans by the Anunnaki, who were Clairvoyant.
    Something like that, I guess...

    But, good-bye to a terrible "alliance", IMHO.

    The sooner we jettison ALL alliances/Pacts/Treaties with Islamic nations, the better off we will be.

    Erdogan is pure evil.
    Last edited by Ragnarok; 06-12-2019 at 12:05 AM.
    Deo adjuvante non timendum - With God Helping, Nothing is to be Feared
    "You are like a pit-bull..." - Dennis Olson
    "No man knows but that the last backward glance over his shoulder may be his last look, forever." - Ernie Pyle Born: 1900 KIA: 1945 Shima, Okinawa

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    Who would the Turks align with theologically, Iran or the House of Saud?
    Saudi Arabia ( Both Turkey and Saudi Arabia are Sunni. Iran is Shia )

    See this post in REL for where this is heading ( A hot war between Turkey and Iran ):

    http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showt...light=Daniel+8
    Last edited by Ragnarok; 06-12-2019 at 12:10 AM.
    Deo adjuvante non timendum - With God Helping, Nothing is to be Feared
    "You are like a pit-bull..." - Dennis Olson
    "No man knows but that the last backward glance over his shoulder may be his last look, forever." - Ernie Pyle Born: 1900 KIA: 1945 Shima, Okinawa

  15. #15
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    The Russians cut a deal understanding that the support costs would be a longer term lucrative pursuit. We just wanted to sell an expensive toy.
    1 Corinthians 18:20 “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JF&P View Post
    Complete and utter BULL SH*T!

    Godlike Productions is where one finds imaginary fantasies like this...NOT HERE @ TB2K!!!!!!
    Yes... My TRUE feelings. I was just trying to avoid a confrontation, tonight.

    Oh, well...

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_wave View Post

    Turkey will align with Russia (Magog).

    Ezekiel 38 - 39
    Russia is not Magog. That is a bad translation based solely on the Schofield Study Bible, which Hal Lindsey ran with in his book, The Late Great Planet Earth which was written in the 1970's. The political situation of the times made sense that Russia would play the part of Magog but, much like the NATO alliance, times have changed dramatically.

    Shouldn't our interpretation of prophecy then be open to the changing times.

    Other than the original Schofield translation, which is the basis for every other "scholar" saying Magog is Russia, what evidence is there?

    I can present evidence that refutes that assumption.

    Schofield's is 100% wrong.

    IVP Atlas of Bible History


    The New Moody Atlas of the Bible


    The Holman Bible Atlas


    Zondervan Atlas of the Bible


    Harper Collins Atlas of Bible History


    ESV Bible Atlas


    Baker’s Bible Atlas


    The Macmillan Bible Atlas


    IVP New Bible Atlas


    - The Oxford Bible Atlas says of Meshech and Tubal that they are, regions in Asia Minor [Turkey].

    - Old Testament scholar Daniel I. Block, in the New International Commentary on Ezekiel, says, It seems best to interpret Magog as a contraction of an original land of Gog, and to see here a reference to the territory of Lydia in western Anatolia [Turkey].

    - The Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary states, Magog, possibly meaning the land of Gog, was no doubt in Asia Minor [Turkey] and may refer to Lydia.

    - The IVP Bible Background Commentary lists Magog, Meshech, Tubal, and Togarmah as sections or peoples in Asia Minor [Turkey].

    - The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, under the entry for Magog, states, It is clear that Lydia [Turkey] is meant, and that by Magog,we must understand, the land of Gog.

    - The Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary places Magog in Anatolia, or modern-day Turkey.

    - The Catholic Encyclopedia states, It seems more probable that . . . Magog should be identified with Lydia [Turkey]. On the other hand, as Mosoch and Thubal were nations belonging to Asia Minor, it would seem from the text of Ezechiel that Magog must be in that part of the world. Finally, others with Josephus identify Magog with Scythia, but in antiquity this name was used to designate vaguely any northern population.

    - Hippolytus of Rome, one of the most important Christian theologians of the third century, in his Chronicon, connected Magog to the Galatians in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey.

    - Pliny the Elder a first-century Roman military commander, author, naturalist, and philosopher placed Magog on the border of Syria and modern day Turkey.

    - Maimonides, also known as Rambam, the revered Jewish sage, in Hichot Terumot, also identified Magog as being on the border of modern day Turkey.

    - Pastor author and well-known prophecy teacher Mark Hitchcock places Meshech and Tubal in modern day Turkey.

    - Author Joel C. Rosenberg also places both Meshech and Tubal in modern day Turkey.

    - Likewise Dr. Thomas Ice, executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center says, Some Bible teachers in the past have taught that Meshech is a reference to Moscow and thus refers to Russia. This is the view of The Scofield Reference Bible, Harry Rimmer and Hal Lindsey; The identification of Meshech with Moscow is merely based upon a similarity of sound. There is not real historical basis to support such a view, therefore, it must be rejected. Ice thus agrees with Hitchcock and places Meshech and Tubal in Turkey: The historical record, as was the case with Meshech, is that Tubal and his descendants immigrated to the area southeast of the Black Sea in what is modern day Turkey. Meshech and Tubal clearly provide the population base for the country we now call Turkey.

    Now, you can believe whatever you want but the preponderance of evidence would dictate that Russia is NOT Magog.

    I guess the Anunnaki weren't all that clairvoyant, after all...
    Deo adjuvante non timendum - With God Helping, Nothing is to be Feared
    "You are like a pit-bull..." - Dennis Olson
    "No man knows but that the last backward glance over his shoulder may be his last look, forever." - Ernie Pyle Born: 1900 KIA: 1945 Shima, Okinawa

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by marsofold View Post
    We have LOTS of nukes stored on bases within Turkish soil. Do you think that they will peacefully give them up?
    How sure are you of that?
    And even if we still have them there (operative words, “we have”) Turkey does not controll them - we do.
    "Be Prepared" - Boy Scouts Motto
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  18. #18
    Conflict News
    ‏ @Conflicts
    Jun 11

    BREAKING: Russia to deliver S-400 missile defense system to Turkey in July, Kremlin says

  19. #19
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    Pre-Trib Research Center

    Impeccable scientific credentials, there.
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  20. #20
    I read a report that Russia is offering jets to replace the F-35 (maybe one of the news hounds can find it)

    If Turkey were to leave NATO, IMO that is a major development. Say goodbye to Incirlik and other NATO bases such as Kurecik radar base in Malatya.


    NW

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozdoats View Post
    Pre-Trib Research Center

    Impeccable scientific credentials, there.
    Don't ignore the 20+ others I cited, or anything...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    How sure are you of that?
    And even if we still have them there (operative words, “we have”) Turkey does not controll them - we do.
    We had a dust-up with Erdogan not that long ago about the Incerlik Airbase. IMHO, the nukes were probably moved to another location at that time ( and if they weren't, I would consider that a serious dereliction of duty as the Turks behavior during that incident revealed their true colors ).
    Deo adjuvante non timendum - With God Helping, Nothing is to be Feared
    "You are like a pit-bull..." - Dennis Olson
    "No man knows but that the last backward glance over his shoulder may be his last look, forever." - Ernie Pyle Born: 1900 KIA: 1945 Shima, Okinawa

  22. #22
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    Don't ignore the 20+ others I cited, or anything...

    Thanks, but no prophecy for me....
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  23. #23
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    Familiarize your selves with Heinlein's "The Long Watch"

    we still employ Johnnys
    RULE 1:
    THEY want you DEAD.

    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my brothers' children (and their parents) may have peace, and have NO KNOWLEDGE of what I have done."

    The BEST in Life:
    To CRUSH your enemies.
    To see them driven before you
    To listen to the lamentations of their women

  24. #24
    Jeff Seldin
    @jseldin
    Just in: Acting SecDef
    @EsperDoD
    warns #Turkey over taking the #Russia|n S-400 missile system

    "We are aware of Turkey taking delivery of the S-400" per Esper "Our position regarding the F-35 has not changed and I will speak w/my Turkish counterpart... this afternoon"
    11:34 AM · Jul 12, 2019 ·
    5
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    Jeff Seldin
    @jseldin
    ·
    2h
    Replying to
    @jseldin
    Acting SecDef
    @EsperDoD
    made the comments at the start of his mtg at the Pentagon w/#Uzbekistan Minister of Defense Bakhodir Kurbanov

    Jeff Seldin
    @jseldin
    ·
    28m
    NEW: Key US lawmakers slam #Turkey on accepting S-400 from #Russia, warning President
    @RTErdogan
    "has chosen a perilous partnership with Putin at the expense of Turkey’s security, economic prosperity and the integrity of the NATO alliance"
    Image

    Jeff Seldin
    @jseldin
    ·
    24m
    "We hope that the strategic relationship...will overcome this setback" per
    @JimInhofe

    @SenJackReed

    @SenatorRisch

    @SenatorMenendez
    "But lasting improvement to our cooperation will not be possible as long as President Erdogan remains fixated on deepening ties w/Vladimir #Putin"

  25. #25
    EndGameWW3
    @EndGameWW3
    Acting US defense chief to speak with Turkey's Akar

    Acting US defense chief to speak with Turkey's Akar
    aa.com.tr
    1:44 PM · Jul 12, 2019 ·
    https://t.co/vQ9YRJDk1h

  26. #26
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    interesting article to provide some background concerning nukes in turkey..pirate

    Time to Pull US Nuclear Weapons Out of Turkey
    BY HARVEY M. SAPOLSKY
    PROFESSOR EMERITUS, MIT
    READ BIO
    MAY 17, 2019

    Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea, and giving Ankara a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm.

    Amid the recent self-congratulatory celebrations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s 70th anniversary, there was no mention one of its strangest policies: the nuclear sharing program that keeps American nuclear bombs in five NATO countries (Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Turkey) and trains host air forces to use them. Thus at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, about 100 miles from the Syrian border, the United States stores some 20 to 80 B61 nuclear weapons for delivery by Turkish or American aircraft. There is not much comfort in knowing that these weapons are under direct American control in heavily guarded bunkers and are designed to be unusable without the proper codes. It is time to bring them home.

    American-Turkish relations are not good and are likely to turn worse. Kurds populate parts of Turkey’s border with Syria and Iraq and have been our close ally in the struggle with the Islamic State, but are regarded by the Turks as secessionists and terrorists. The United States has promised not to abandon the Kurds as it has in the past, but that promise puts the United States’ hopes to stabilize the region on a collision path with Turkey.

    Complicating the relations are Turkey’s attempts to acquire Russian military technology, most notably the S-400 air defense system, while remaining part of United States’ F-35 stealth fighter program. Turkey is an industrial partner in the F-35 program and is scheduled to purchase 100 of the aircraft. The first of Turkey’s F-35s are ready for delivery. But Turkey is also scheduled to receive soon the first components of the Russian S-400 system it has purchased, which American military officials have said is incompatible with Turkish possession of the F-35; The fear is that details of the fighter’s stealth features and performance will be revealed to the Russians who will help maintain the S-400.

    Nuclear sharing began in the 1960s as a way to assure European members of NATO of America’s commitment to their defense, and to ward off any temptation to acquire nuclear weapons of their own. The presence of American tactical nuclear systems like the B61 bombs would tie American forces to the fate of their hosts. The sharing of the weapons’ delivery would give these countries a direct role in the nuclear enterprise without requiring them to actually build weapons.

    Decades have passed, as has the Cold War, and with it, the Soviet forces in the Warsaw Pact countries, the original targets of the weapons. NATO nuclear sharing, though, persists. The weapons and the assigned aircraft are aging. The United States is currently updating the bombs and has designated the F-35 as the replacement aircraft for the F-16, the delivery aircraft for the NATO partners (except for Germany and Italy, which use the Tornado). Some are having second thoughts about hosting the weapons or replacing the aircraft. The Parliament in the Netherlands has expressed doubts, as have members of the governing coalition in Germany. Nuclear weapons aren’t the temptation they once were for Europeans. Turkey, which is the bridge to the Middle East, is silent on the subject.

    Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea. Giving Turkey a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm especially as Turkey flirts with Russia and has growing grievances with the United States. Let’s end NATO’s nuclear-sharing program, beginning with the nuclear weapons at Incirlik.

    Harvey M. Sapolsky is Professor Emeritus at MIT and the former Director of the MIT Security Studies Program

    https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/201...turkey/157101/

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by marsofold View Post
    We have LOTS of nukes stored on bases within Turkish soil. Do you think that they will peacefully give them up?
    I'm sure we have conventional explosives on them and at the push of a button they can be destroyed. Have fun dealing with radioactive rubble trying to reverse engineer them.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpkin View Post
    Right on, Doc1.

    If nato does dissolve, I think Europe’s and US interests will realign once again. The EU is too comfortable

  29. #29
    EHA News
    @eha_news
    ·
    6h
    #BREAKING Another #Russian cargo plane arrives in #Mürted Air Base in #Ankara as part of S-400 delivery to #Turkey from #Russia
    />
    EndGameWW3 Retweeted

    EHA News
    @eha_news
    The 4th #Russian cargo plane has arrived in #Ankara, carrying parts of S-400 systems from #Russia
    2:50 AM · Jul 13, 2019 ·

  30. #30
    EndGameWW3
    @EndGameWW3
    Turkey could begin new military operation in Syria after receiving S-400 missile system – Middle East Monitor | via
    @MiddleEastMnt
    (link: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...issile-system/) middleeastmonitor.com/20190712-turke…


    2:57 AM · Jul 13, 2019

  31. #31
    EndGameWW3
    @EndGameWW3
    Ankara says it might send warships to escort its Gas Drilling vessels in Cypriot waters.-EUObserver
    1:59 PM · Jul 13, 2019 ·

  32. #32
    Sounds like 1974 all over again.

  33. #33
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    POLITICSJULY 18, 2019 / 4:30 PM / UPDATED 15 MINUTES AGO
    Republican senator plans resolution urging Turkey sanctions: document
    Alexandra Alper
    2 MIN READ

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican Senator Rick Scott plans to unveil a resolution on Thursday calling for sanctions against Turkey after its purchase of a Russian air defense system, increasing pressure on U.S. President Donald Trump to take action against the NATO ally.

    Ankara began accepting delivery of an advanced Russian missile defense system last week, prompting the White House to announce it was removing Turkey from the F-35 fighter jet program.

    But Trump’s administration has stopped short of imposing sanctions on Turkey, despite a law aimed at preventing countries from purchasing military equipment from Russia, known as CAATSA. Trump has not been clear on whether his administration is considering doing so.

    If approved, Scott’s resolution would call for “full implementation of sanctions under CAATSA,” describing Turkey’s purchase of the S-400 air and missile defense system as a “direct and dire threat” to U.S. security interests.

    The sanctions law, which Trump signed in 2017, mandates that the president choose five among a range of 12 sanctions, from banning visas and denying access to the U.S.-based Export-Import Bank to harsher options such as barring transactions with the U.S. financial system and denying export licenses.

    However, CAATSA does not set any timeline for imposing sanctions or issuing a waiver, so Trump could delay indefinitely.

    A draft of the proposal, seen by Reuters, calls for the Trump administration to convene talks at NATO to discuss threats posed by Russia and mull Turkey’s continued inclusion in NATO.

    While resolutions have no force of law, passage of such a measure in the Republican-controlled Senate could amp up pressure on Trump to crack down on Ankara.

    Scott’s resolution also slams Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan for taking the country “down a path of authoritarianism and human rights abuses,” aligning itself with radical Islamist militant groups and agitating against U.S. ally Israel.

    Reporting by Alexandra Alper; editing by Patricia Zengerle and Alistair Bell

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...KCN1UD33T?il=0

    does turkey think we are bluffing, or think they are one up on us?

  34. #34
    EndGameWW3
    @EndGameWW3
    Turkey hints at pulling access to Incirlik and Kurecik if US acts over Russian weapons purchase


    11:07 PM · Jul 23, 2019 · https://t.co/mrvp0Z2QDw


    ·
    5h
    Replying to
    @EndGameWW3
    I would to see them try and take it away. Would Turkey face a response? Like shoot to kill? Or other military action?

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