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GUNS/RLTD First AR
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Thread: First AR

  1. #1
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    5 First AR

    After shooting one recently, I have decided that I wanted to buy my first AR-15 style rifle.


    My budget is almost non-existent, so I wanted to ask ya'lls opinion of this one I found online:



    https://www.deguns.net/DPMS-Oracle-5...cle-for-sale/p


    The questions I have are:


    Is this brand any good?
    Could this gun be used for hunting and bugging out if needed?
    Is this gun a good starter gun for the AR platform in general?


    Any advice or comment or anything would be welcome.



    And, as always, if I shouldn't ask this type of question here, please remove and accept my apologies.



    Thank you!
    Remember also that the smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights, cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. - Ayn Rand

  2. #2
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    Abandon hope all ye who enter here …

    My advice as a long time AR shooter and builder is to buy as close to the gun you want as you can manage as soon as you can.

    Now, I don't know what gun you really really really want, but for a good general purpose AR I would suggest a two component middy build from PSA - to wit:

    For the upper- https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165450127.html


    DAILY DEAL
    Exp. 1/14, 12pm EST

    PSA 16" Mid-Length Pencil 5.56 NATO 1:7 Nitride 13.5" Lightweight M-LOK Upper with Nickel Boron BCG, CH, & MBUS Sight Set - 5165450127

    9 Reviews | 9 Questions, 8 Answers
    In stock
    $ 299.99

    free shipping Free Shipping applies to this item only and not the entire order.
    SKU: 5165450127
    UPC: 5165450127
    MFR#: 5165450127
    Barrel Length: 16"
    Gas System: Mid-length
    Barrel Profile: Pencil
    Barrel Steel: 4150V Chrome Moly
    Barrel Finish: Nitride
    Chrome Lining: None
    Muzzle Thread: 1/2-28
    Chamber: 5.56 NATO
    Twist Rate: 1 in 7"
    Barrel Extension: M4
    Diameter at Gas Block: .625"
    Gas Block Type: Low-profile
    Muzzle Device: A2 Style Flash Hider
    Receiver Material: Forged 7075 T6
    Receiver Type: M4
    Hand guard Type: PSA 13.5" Lightweight M-Lok Rail
    Bolt Carrier Group Included: Yes
    Bolt Steel: Carpenter 158, Nickel Boron
    Bolt Carrier Profile: Full-auto
    Charging Handle included: Yes
    Overall Length: 24.5"
    Weight as configured: 3.25 lbs

    Barrel: 16" 4150V chrome moly vanadium steel, chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, M4 barrel extension, mid-length gas system and a light weight pencil profile. The barrel is nitride coated and finished off with an 0.625" diameter low profile gas block, PSA 13.5" Lightweight M-lok free float rail and an A2 flash hider.
    Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is machined to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA by a mil-spec manufacturer.
    Bolt Carrier Group: ToolCraft nickel boron BCG has a bolt made of mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec.
    Includes: Magpul MBUS Sight Set, Black
    SKU: 5165450127



    ======================

    And for the lower- https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...wer-black.html



    PSA AR15 MOE EPT Lower, Black - 7780991
    110 Reviews | 15 Questions, 55 Answers
    In stock
    $ 169.99

    free shipping Free Shipping applies to this item only and not the entire order.
    Must be 21 or older to purchase.
    If you live in California, please read this notice before ordering.
    SKU: 7780991
    UPC: 7780991
    MFR#: 7780991
    PSA AR-15 Complete Lower Magpul MOE Edition - Black, No Magazine
    Due to state laws, this item cannot ship to California.
    PSA AR15/PA10 Enhanced Polished Trigger
    Machined from Aluminum Forgings 7075-T6
    Hardcoat Anodizing: MIL-A-8625F, Type III, Class 2
    Milspec diameter Receiver Extension
    Magpul MOE Stock
    Magpul MOE Grip
    Staked M4 Lock Nut
    Standard Carbine Buffer
    Un-notched Hammer compatible with 9mm use
    Caliber: Multi

    PSA AR-15 Complete Lower Magpul MOE Edition - Black, No Magazine. Lowers may be Safe/Fire or Pictogram.

    PSA AR15/PA10 Enhanced Polished Trigger
    We start with our standard single-stage government-style fire control group, finely polish the contact surfaces and then coat the hammer and trigger in a super slick nickel finish. The result is a trigger that is substantially smoother than mil-spec. A great economical upgrade.

    ==================

    Costs a bit more than 400 even but you get better components you don't have to upgrade for more $$$ and hassle later. And since it's a build, you save 11% in taxes over buying an assembled firearm.

    If money is tight order the upper now, it can ship straight to your door and that one will sell out by the time the Deal is over, I'd bet. There will be comparable deals on lowers in time for you to finish your build before the Dems sink their teeth in.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Dozdoats; 01-11-2019 at 11:19 PM.
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  3. #3
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    Yes, check out Palmetto State Armory, You cant beat their prices. Buy an assembled lower and an assembled upper with bolt carrier group, and you are set. way cheaper, and way better quality. Check out the links and info in Dozdoats post, it has pretty much all the info you need. I have that exact upper and its excellent.
    Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security.

  4. #4
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    The combo Dozdoats lists above would be a very good AR-15 choice for general use.

  5. #5
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    I'd also suggest an optic or red dot. Check out In RangeTV on that...particularly their "What would Stoner do?" series, which includes several parts on optics. That being said, PSA is definitely a go to place for an AR....

  6. #6
    I’d look for a used s&w m&p 15. Basic ar of good quality that you can sell down the line. If a bug out gun is in your plans. Don’t skimp on the initial base. Iron sights are fine provided you can see them. There are many red dot sights that vary in price that you can add later. I prefer colt ars but that’s about twice your budget. But sw is a respected name in firearms and they entered the ar game when the basic kinks were worked out. So they’ll have chrome lined chambers and barrels and properly staked bolt carriers. Earlier versions (used) were not properly made.
    Run em wet

  7. #7
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    Agreed. You’ll get a better gun at PSA. Shop the sales. You can often get the components for under $400.

  8. #8
    Yes, definitely go to Palmetto State Armory. Buy lots of ammo, magazines, ammo, a spare parts kit and get more ammo, some mags, and don't forget ammo. When you get her please share some pics with us. It is also customary that when you bring home your first child, I mean AR, you send out a couple boxes of ammo and mags to those on this thread.

  9. #9
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by intowolves View Post
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?
    As to special tools, that depends on how much/deep of a "do it yourself" assembly you want to attempt...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by intowolves View Post
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?
    It is easy to separate or assemble the complete upper and lower halves of an AR-15.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKmaiM9zLfU

    4 minute video shows how.

    Last edited by 1911user; 01-12-2019 at 07:46 AM. Reason: replaced with better video

  12. #12
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    Get plenty of ammo!
    "America is at that awkward stage, to late to work within the system, but to early to shoot the bastards"-- Claire Wolfe

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by intowolves View Post
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?
    It is really hard to beat the deal at PSA that was posted. Bear Creek Arsenal also has good deals.

    As for building a rifle from parts and pieces, it isn't hard as long as you can torque the barrel correctly. But it will always be more expensive that the PSA builds.

  14. #14
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    Man PSA really need to open a European branch, those prices are smokin.

    At those prices every prepper should have a couple of ARs tucked away

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by intowolves View Post
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?
    If you buy a completed upper and completed lower, there are two lock pins that you need to pull open to place the upper onto the lower. Then push the pins into place and you’re done. The pins are part of the field strip process, so no tools are needed.

    I would NOT try to build one from a parts kit.

  16. #16
    Poodle shooter mouse gun.

    if ya just have to have a m16 type weapon get enough barrel to take advantage of the velocity advantage.

    PSA has a variant that shots 7.62x51 which grants you a main battle rifle cartridge.

    if you do go with the 556 start stocking up on mags and get as many standard capacity mags as you can obtain, shoot for 50 as a good starting point. shoot for 10,000 rounds of ammo or more.

    Be sure the iron sights are available. Batteries fail eventually, usually at the worst possible moment. Might want a scope, and / or red dot of some type.

    might want a suppressor and also night vision equipment.

    I'm not a fan of AR type weapons. There might be a few stored around, but I'd much rather have a m14 / M1A rifle. Now that is a man's rifle and suits my tastes of what a rifle should be.
    Dosadi

    III


    My family & clan are my country.

  17. #17
    IF you're not into all the savvy stuff of assembling your own, the DPMS is pretty good. You also might consider a "Ruger 556" very nice AR reasonably priced, depending on where you buy, the Ruger can go from 4-600.00 w/open sites

    I would note that in the pic of the DPMS it doesn't come with, at least, open sites, so there is an extra purchase. Not to mention optics. I personally don't like red dots, to each his own, the Nikon P223 BDC is very reasonable at around 150.00 Sometimes you can find refurbished ones for about 100.00. It's only a 3X, but works very well at different ranges, makes for quick acquisition.

    Also makes plans to purchase additional mags. 7 total is a goal to shoot for. 3 each per ammo pouch, total of 2, and one in the rifle. (which is half an ammo can)

    It's pretty hard to beat as an all around hunting, bugging out/survival, and defense.

    the .223 is slightly larger than the .22 but packs a bigger punch so is a bit big for small game like squirrels, and rabbits, so headshots are a must, to save the body.

    And is a bit light for Whitetails, however with some good shot placements will work well.

    Way to small for back country Grizzlies, Moose, and Elk. However, if one those was charging me I'd see what 30 rds would do LOL.

    Not just having tons of ammo is important, they are just so much fun to shoot, but also the type of ammo.

    For targets and lots of shots the cheapest is usually 55 grain FMJ. However, having a mix of green tips, hollow points, polymer tipped, and different weights as low as, I think, 47 grains, and up to like near 70 grains all serve their purpose for various game, and defense.

    Go shoot lots of 55 grain FMJ, but also have and shoot some of the others, because they will vary on point of impact.

  18. #18
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    Cake or Pie...hmmm?
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  19. #19
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    My response to Dosadi’s post:

    The best thing about the AR15 platform is that you can carry a buttload of ammo. The .308, not so much. As far as mags and ammo, he’s being semi-hysterical IMO, unless you intend to disperse said mags and ammo amongst multiple children, in which case he’s on the low side. If that’s NOT the case, 30 mags and 5k rds is more than adequate. If/when TSHTF, you’ll be dead long before the ammo is used, and if you’re still alive, mags and ammo will be readily salvageable from enemy combatants.

    A scope on an AR15 is IMO worthless, as the AR15 platform is a carbine, not a sniper rifle. Oh, there are armchair warriors who hang 40 lbs of crap on the thing, but by design it’s a “running gunbattle” weapon. However, a red dot in addition to a flip-up BUIS would be advised.

    A suppressor gets you onto a list that you may not want to be on. Also, night vision is over $3000 for the good stuff.

    I think Dosadi is recommending you go all “Universal Soldier”, which is patently ridiculous.

    You need optics, a sling, mags and a case. Oh, and you’ll want to get some dental picks, as cleaning an AR is a PITA. I agree with him that I don’t care for the platform. I find it needlessly complex (typical of a government project.) But ammo is cheap right now, and you can have fun with it.

    ETA: I put a scope on my AR10 (which I got from PSA for $475!!) But that rifle is far better for long-range work.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by intowolves View Post
    For a first ar I'm curious how hard it'd be for someone to piece it together as is being suggested? any special tools needed?
    PSA gun kit plus a stripped lower; easy to build.

    You need a vise and a good set of roll pin punches (long is better than short) and a little manual dexterity.

    If you are going install your own barrel you need an action block and barrel wrench as well as a torque wrench. You can search youtube for how to videos and don't forget to download the ARMY TM 9-1005-319-23&P manual.

    But as everyone else has said it is just too easy buy assembled uppers and lowers from PSA.

    By the way ARs are like tribbles, feed them ammo and they reproduce at an alarming rate. Before you know it when you open the gun safe they just come spilling out.
    Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistaken1 View Post
    (snip) By the way ARs are like tribbles, feed them ammo and they reproduce at an alarming rate. Before you know it when you open the gun safe they just come spilling out.
    I'm stealing that for a SIG line.
    Last edited by 1911user; 01-12-2019 at 11:00 AM.

  22. #22
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    By the way ARs are like tribbles, feed them ammo and they reproduce at an alarming rate. Before you know it when you open the gun safe they just come spilling out.

    This is very true. I got my first AR, then within about a year they reproduced into another AR15 and an AR10. I keep them all separated these days, just in case, and I’ve deleted my bookmark to PSA...

  23. #23
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    A high percentage of wet work is done in the dark. A bright LED light is a good addition after 1) Good sights, 2) A sling 3) Good Red dot optic.


    Anything else on a fighting rifle is mostly mall ninja crap that just gets heavy. Look for a 10 pack of mags on sale, get them sooner than later then stock up on ammo.

  24. #24
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    Don't listen to the poodle shooter mousegun bullshit from the he-man battle droids out there. Used to be they bitched about what a pipsqueak cartridge the .30 M1 carbine used, too. They never learn when to shut up.

    I wouldn't tackle a parts kit build right out the door. Putting together an assembled upper and an assembled lower however is fall off a log easy.

    16" of barrel will do fine. You will spend far far more time lugging the thing around than shooting it. I suggested the upper I did in part because it is a pencil barrel build. Unless you plan to use it as a light machine gun, that barrel will do fine.

    The components I suggested give you a free floated lighter weight barrel, upgraded bolt and bolt carrier, and a trigger upgrade. You can find cheaper, but you'd have to work hard to do better for the money.
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911user View Post
    I'm stealing that for a SIG line.
    LOL I've got to say not only is that good, but it's also true. LOL

  26. #26
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    Then there are the accessories. Like Barbie, spend $400 on the gun and $4000 on accessories.

    Crazy.

    When I got my AR10, I spent $475 on the gun, the. Another $500 on optics, a few mags, a sling, ammo and a case. And I need much more ammo. I only have about 400 rds.

    ETA: No one is going to be in a running firefight with an AR10. The damn thing feels like it weighs 20 lbs!

  27. #27
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    OP, I have a DMPS model A-15 that I have had for over 10 years. I have had no problems with the firearm and it was accurate right out of the box and I am happy with mine. Like mentioned, when you buy what you finally decide on, buy plenty of mags, ammo, cleaning kit, plus a sling for you rifle. When I bought mine, I got the completed firearm from a local dealer including open sights. He let me test it out in his indoor range and he also gave me some tips on cleaning and taking care of the rifle. I have only put around 1400 rounds through my rifle but I have confidence in the DPMS and my ability to use it. And also my wife likes shooting the rifle and is accurate with it too.

  28. #28
    I personally like a 3x or 4x optic and 45 degree sights or red dot.
    It's what I went to for rapid transitions in 3-gun. Now it's practically standard.
    I like the Inforce WMLx light on a free-floated KM or MLOK slimline tube.
    If you know that you will keep it, camo your gun (take cues from multicam).

    Train. Train. Train.
    Use a timer to add stress. Shoot until you miss (add stress and fatigue until you cannot meet a set standard....Tactical Rifleman YT and MountainGuerrilla.wordpress are good resources). Evaluate and shoot again.
    Remember, you have to be Fast enough and Accurate enough. They are not often mutually exclusive on a 2-way range.

  29. #29
    Agree with those who say go assembled PSA for first AR, two pins to put the upper and lower together. Unless you really want to assemble your own which isn't hard but is a little tricky in a few places and does require some special tools most won't have laying around. There is some peace of mind knowing it's put together right if you aren't experienced. Personal preference, spend a little more for mid-length gas system and the magpul furniture.

    M&P Sport and Ruger 556 are both good choices but a little more expensive.

    Most your money will be spent on mags (Magpul is great but new metal is cheaper), ammo (Wolf Gold is my stack deep choice), optics (Sig Romeo 5 is amazing budget option but a Bushnell TRS-25 with a cheap riser will get the job done if that is all you have) and other accessories (mounted light, sling, etc)...a little training from a good local instructor is also money well spent.

  30. #30
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    How I used to love to shoot. Then my eyes went bad. Now it just reminds me of the infirmities of old age creeping up on me.

    Sigh...

  31. #31
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    Bolt Action in 308

    I trained on the M-16A2 way back in 1973. I was not impressed with the gun. We used pipe cleaners to run through the hole in the firing pin. It was nearly 50 years ago that I fired it, trained on it, and cleaned it. All in all, the M-16 is designed as a light infantry weapon, relatively short range, under 300 yards, and you are able to carry 400 rounds of ammo easily. The ammo is specifically designed to wound any enemy and not kill them.

    The AR-15 takes advantage of the fact that the M-16 platform has been in use since 1965 in Vietnam. The early problems were related to the Army ignoring maker's criteria for ammo, which led to a lot of people dying in Vietnam from jammed guns. As long as you use quality ammo, you should be okay. It is not an insignificant factor that masses of ammo, spare parts, mags, etc are distributed all over the USA since the M-16/AR-15 platform has been the dominant semiautomatic rifle since the late 1950's, mid 1960's to 2018, which is over 60 plus years.

    At any rate, the blunt truth is an experienced shooter, with a bolt action rifle, can easily be trained to do what was called "British Rapid Fire," that put twenty to thirty rounds down range in about the time it took for a semi auto to empty a 20 round clip.

    The semi auto advantage comes after the second and third mag since rapid fire bolt action can't be sustained. One of my range masters back in July of 1973 told me the only real advantage to full auto fire from an M-16 was spray and play. He said that would keep the enemy down but that was all. It is also very easy to shoot 400 rounds on full auto, which is why the full auto on my M-16 eventually was changed to a three round burst.

    If I get a rifle now, I would go for a bolt action, in 308 Winchester. I'm afraid the AR-15 won't be much good against one of those AI controlled battle bots.

    Savage has a rifle with a scope for around $300 I am looking into. Anybody use it?
    Doomer Doug, a.k.a. Doug McIntosh now has a blog at www.doomerdoug.wordpress.com
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  32. #32
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    I will never own a contemporary Savage rifle.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Olson View Post
    Then there are the accessories. Like Barbie, spend $400 on the gun and $4000 on accessories.

    Crazy.

    When I got my AR10, I spent $475 on the gun, the. Another $500 on optics, a few mags, a sling, ammo and a case. And I need much more ammo. I only have about 400 rds.

    ETA: No one is going to be in a running firefight with an AR10. The damn thing feels like it weighs 20 lbs!

    In my mid to late twenties when I wasn't carrying an FN FAL I was carrying a MAG58 general purpose machine gun. Those things really do weigh around 24 pounds. Add as much again for the link belt ammo and an extra 40 or 50 pounds for all of your other kit. I couldn't do it today on a bet!

    Best regards
    Doc

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Olson View Post
    My response to Dosadi’s post:

    The best thing about the AR15 platform is that you can carry a buttload of ammo. The .308, not so much. As far as mags and ammo, he’s being semi-hysterical IMO, unless you intend to disperse said mags and ammo amongst multiple children, in which case he’s on the low side. If that’s NOT the case, 30 mags and 5k rds is more than adequate. If/when TSHTF, you’ll be dead long before the ammo is used, and if you’re still alive, mags and ammo will be readily salvageable from enemy combatants.

    A scope on an AR15 is IMO worthless, as the AR15 platform is a carbine, not a sniper rifle. Oh, there are armchair warriors who hang 40 lbs of crap on the thing, but by design it’s a “running gunbattle” weapon. However, a red dot in addition to a flip-up BUIS would be advised.

    A suppressor gets you onto a list that you may not want to be on. Also, night vision is over $3000 for the good stuff.

    I think Dosadi is recommending you go all “Universal Soldier”, which is patently ridiculous.

    You need optics, a sling, mags and a case. Oh, and you’ll want to get some dental picks, as cleaning an AR is a PITA. I agree with him that I don’t care for the platform. I find it needlessly complex (typical of a government project.) But ammo is cheap right now, and you can have fun with it.

    ETA: I put a scope on my AR10 (which I got from PSA for $475!!) But that rifle is far better for long-range work.
    Thank you for your fine analysis Dennis. There is more than meets the eye to your wisdom. ;-)
    Dosadi

    III


    My family & clan are my country.

  35. #35
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    Used to shoot 3 Gun with this blonde kid at Bragg named Kyle Lamb. He was the first one I ever saw to run a magnified optic on the top rail and a mini red dot in a 45 degree mount on a carbon fiber (?) free float tube.

    Your optic depends on the state of your eyesight and your environment. Nowadays I can't see for crap, and my optics are 1X prismatics.
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer Doug View Post
    At any rate, the blunt truth is an experienced shooter, with a bolt action rifle, can easily be trained to do what was called "British Rapid Fire," that put twenty to thirty rounds down range in about the time it took for a semi auto to empty a 20 round clip.
    "Blunt truth", lol....I don't think so.

  37. #37
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    I almost pulled the trigger, so to speak on an EBR, several times when I actually had a job. Sadly, I did not, and it is not in the realm of possibilities currently. Still, if my ship ever comes in, there is at least one on the manifest.

    I really wanted a .308 with the stainless steel longer barrel but any of them would do.

    I saw a meme that showed an overweight guy all decked out in weapons and ammo. Caption reads "ready TSHTF, can't walk up a flight of stairs"

    I do have a Remington 30.06 and I need to go to a range to make sure the scope is still accurate but eventually I'd like an EBR.
    Tax the rich, feed the poor, til there are, rich no more - Ten Years After
    Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot. -JCSS
    Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can't give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer Doug View Post
    The ammo is specifically designed to wound any enemy and not kill them.
    Uh, no it isn't. And it kills pretty effectively, though shot placement is key as with any round (especially in the impoverished areas we tend to fight in today). I will say that the green tip is not so great against skinny, unarmored foes....luckily the Hajis are getting armor now.
    On a side note, I once witnessed a man receive 11 hits from an M240 (7.62x51) and survive. I guess the .308 is just designed to wound. See the logical fallacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer Doug View Post
    At any rate, the blunt truth is an experienced shooter, with a bolt action rifle, can easily be trained to do what was called "British Rapid Fire," that put twenty to thirty rounds down range in about the time it took for a semi auto to empty a 20 round clip.
    The semi auto advantage comes after the second and third mag since rapid fire bolt action can't be sustained.
    From Wiki "Lee-Enfield":
    The current world record for aimed bolt-action fire was set in 1914 by a musketry instructor in the British Army—Sergeant Instructor Snoxall—who placed 38 rounds into a 12-inch-wide (300 mm) target at 300 yards (270 m) in one minute.

    While SI Snoxall's achievement is remarkable (Since his 1914 record still stands), a level of skill even approaching it is practically unattainable. Though the Lee-Enfield had a 10 round mag, it used 5 round stripper clips for charging, meaning 3-7 reloads for 20- 38 rounds on target (Note:The usual "mad minute" for a trainee consisted of only 15 shots on a 48" target at 300 yards, meaning 3 reloads).

    Compared to an AR or AK, which even if starting with only 4 rounds loaded (as per the mad minute rules), 1 reload gets you to 34 rounds vs 6 reloads of a SMLE for the same. Less time loading equates to more time per shot increasing accuracy, or more shots per minute if the splits are the same. With a modicum of training I would expect nearly 60 rounds on target per minute with an AR....world class riflemen could easily exceed that. There is no comparison in speed shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer Doug View Post
    One of my range masters back in July of 1973 told me the only real advantage to full auto fire from an M-16 was spray and play. He said that would keep the enemy down but that was all. It is also very easy to shoot 400 rounds on full auto, which is why the full auto on my M-16 eventually was changed to a three round burst.
    Well, the M4A1 (now standard issue) is Safe-Single-Full Auto....the crappy 3 round burst sucked, made for a mushy trigger and is now abandoned. The M4A1 also has a heavier barrel, preventing barrel burst failure after ~200 rounds of extremely rapid fire which happened quite a bit in some areas under duress (Kandahar, Fallujah and Mosul that were publicized, probably a bunch more).

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer Doug View Post
    If I get a rifle now, I would go for a bolt action, in 308 Winchester. I'm afraid the AR-15 won't be much good against one of those AI controlled battle bots.

    Savage has a rifle with a scope for around $300 I am looking into. Anybody use it?
    Green tip is at its best against armored bots....just sayin'.

    If you are not playing favorites, look into the 6.5 Creedmoor. At range it retains more energy and has a much higher hit percentage. SOCOM is now adopting it for anti-personnel sniper applications due to its terminal advantage.

    6.5 Creedmoor vs .308 Winchester… No Contest
    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...08-winchester/

    If I had the funds I might consider an AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor....or another 5k of 5.56. The AR10 was adopted as the SASS for the Army, because snipers needed more shots quicker in urban battlezones. I will state that at LONG range (1000 yards+), the bolt action still reigns supreme.

  39. #39
    The army manual:

    http://www.emilitarymanuals.com/pdf/...5-319-23&P.pdf

    Another handy manual (good if you are new to the platform):
    https://www.bushmaster.com/sites/def...20Manual_0.pdf
    Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  40. #40
    I thought that a good analysis. Thanks.

    I would make one other consideration:

    If I had several guns already in the bank I would definitely go with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

    Before purchasing the 6.5 I would have the 5.56, in AR and 308 in AR10 and bolt action. I'm like Dennis and wouldn't have it in Savage though. To each his own.

    The reason being availability of ammo. Even though the 6.5 is readily available NOW, that doesn't mean it will be in hard times, and especially in a Shumer event. If it goes CWII, and who knows about that, then I would think 5.56 and .308 could be taken off fallen combatants.

    20 years from now that may be a different story.

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