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WAR A Holocaust Was What The Americans Did To The Germans AFTER THE WAR
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  1. #41
    Just wanted to thank Wild-T2 for their reply. I may not have to go to the range after all.

    Makes me wonder which prison camp my uncle stayed in.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBreeze View Post
    So, Hitler should have won?
    You think Stalin was any better?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroe View Post
    You think Stalin was any better?
    Weird.

    We did not back Stalin conqueror Russia. Lenin did that during WWI.

    What we did was get in when we were bombed by an Axis power, Japan. Until then we didn't back anyone. THEN because of the alliance with Germany we declared war on Germany. Who was already at war with England, France, and Russia.

    So when we came into the war, we came in on the side of the Allies who were at the time England and Russia. Not so much Russia. They mostly did their own thing, against Germany, I think all we did was supply money for their war effort.

    So pray tell how would backing Germany who was an alliance power with Japan, who had bombed us, a good thing against Russia?

    Because right now I'm in a Duh? situation here.

  4. #44
    I questioned this story early, I'm inclined to consider it has some truth, but not to the level or the basis as posted. There are bad apples, but the degree of evil that would of had to of been involved makes no sense for American boys / men to be a wholesale part of.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    Weird.

    We did not back Stalin conqueror Russia. Lenin did that during WWI.

    What we did was get in when we were bombed by an Axis power, Japan. Until then we didn't back anyone. THEN because of the alliance with Germany we declared war on Germany. Who was already at war with England, France, and Russia.

    So when we came into the war, we came in on the side of the Allies who were at the time England and Russia. Not so much Russia. They mostly did their own thing, against Germany, I think all we did was supply money for their war effort.

    So pray tell how would backing Germany who was an alliance power with Japan, who had bombed us, a good thing against Russia?

    Because right now I'm in a Duh? situation here.
    We did a bit more than give them money.
    III

  6. #46
    You are all so intelligent. I am such a poor history student and can’t discuss such matters with the knowledge that most of you here have. I do care about our country and am concerned about the future. My husband was a civics teacher back when and he couldn’t teach that now like it should be taught. Of course that was also when you could use a paddle in school (with a witness of course). I plan to re-read this thread with more concentration.

  7. #47
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    I would like to say that what is the reason for a declaration of peace, if it doesn't mean peace to any and all countries that have fought a war? After WW2, there was also the Geneva Convention that spelled out certain behaviors to be followed, after the war.

    Also, you should know that the majority of Germans were not Nazis. By the way, they got that name because they were nationalist, and that is what they became known as. It was not a derogatory term, back then, if my memory serves me.

    When I buy books from Amazon, I, too, like to read the comments from the buyers. And, any of you who have also done so, we know that there are some who liked the book, and others are dissenters. That is true, on this board, too....there are some who believe and some who refuse to believe this side of the story. I have to accept that.

    Just to be fair to the author,however, here are a couple (there are many more) who found the book very credible and authentic.

    Mar. 29 2017
    I have been reading about WWII history for at least 60 years.
    I was told about this book by a friend of mine. I said it was not true. That I had NEVER READ ANYTHING ABOUT THESE KILLINGS. I SAID THAT I WOULD HAVE READ SOMETHING!! about them in all the reading I had done.

    Then he showed me the book, and then I bought the book. I can not believe it. That Eisenhower and other top well known generals would allow this to happen is unthinkable.

    But after reading the book I am convinced that it did happen.
    I also have a friend who is Germany and he says that he had heard about these events also.
    Eye opening.

    --------------------------------------------------
    Valuable addition to WWII history
    July 4, 2001

    Mr. Bacque is to be congratulated for publishing this book which describes the fate German soldiers who had surrendered to General Eisenhower's forces at the end of WWII. They had expected to be treated according to the Geneva convention governing the conduct of armies in regard to captured enemy personnel.

    This was not to be the case. As Mr. Bacque points out an entire new category of "Disarmed Enemy Forces", DEF, was created. Its only purpose was to avoid having to feed and house these millions of ex-soldiers and thereby bypass the Geneva convention to which America was a signatory.

    One may argue about the precise numbers of ex-soldiers who died in these "temporary enclosures" but the fact that inhuman treatment did exist cannot be denied. Neither can the fact that a considerable percentage of them was subsequently given to the French for what is called today "slave labor," albeit this term refers nowadays only to non-German nationals.

    Readers who may feel negatively about Bacque's revelations should be aware that this treatment of former members of the German army was not just happenstance but the execution of the Morgenthau plan to render Germany harmless forever. The plan was not directed against the German leadership or Nazis, but the German people at large. Mr. Baque makes frequent reference to this unfortunate document but readers, who cannot conceive that U.S. personnel may also carry out atrocities should look at the Document section of Warren F. Kimball's "Swords or Ploughshares? The Morgenthau plan for Defeated Nazi Germany."The book clearly shows that Roosevelt had endorsed a policy of "being hard on Germany" and Eisenhower was in full accord.

    That you cannot be "hard" on a country but only on its people and that this policy is bound to involve cruelties was not a consideration. The conditions changed only after Eisenhower's return to the U.S. and the appointment of Lucius D. Clay as High Commissioner. He clearly saw that the existing situation, even for the civilian population, made neither military nor political sense. It would merely turn the population to communism because even the Russians fed the people in their zone better than the Americans did.

    It is also to President Truman's credit that he quietly dropped the Morgenthau plan soon after the Potsdam meeting. As a former member of the Wehrmacht I had become aware of the Morgenthau plan in the winter of 1944-1945 but had regarded it as Nazi propaganda. I had always had high admiration for the principles America stood for and the Morgenthau plan seemed to be in total contradiction to those ideals.

    As mentioned in my book War and Mayhem I had intended to surrender to the U.S. forces towards the end of the war, but changed my mind on VE day and through the grace of God managed to avoid American as well as Soviet captivity. Having read Mr. Bacque's book I am even more grateful for the good fortune which kept me out of DEF status and instead allowed me to go to medical school within about six weeks after Germany's capitulation.

    I had no idea about the conditions German ex-soldiers were exposed to in those days, just as I had no idea about what really went on in the Nazi concentration camps until after the war. There are things people just didn't talk about. To "let it all hang out" became popular only in the late sixties and thereafter. But for the sake of historical accuracy both sides need to be heard and Mr. Bacque has done us this service for which he deserves our gratitude.

  8. #48
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    An extra little side note.....I have also read about German POW's brought to this country, mainly, I think, to assist farmers.

    I've read about some who were brought to Michigan, here, to help with the fruit farmers.

    I also read about one who fell in love with the farmer's daughter, and after the war, he came back and married her!

  9. #49
    German Prisoners of War
    Citation: C N Trueman "German Prisoners of War"

    historylearningsite.co.uk. The History Learning Site, 25 May 2015. 1 Jan 2019.

    German POW’s captured in campaigns in Western Europe, were held in Allied POW camps. These came under the inspection of the Red Cross and all the evidence suggests that German POW’s held in Western Europe were well treated – accommodation was adequate as was food. The Red Cross took care of communicating with families. German POW’s captured on the Eastern Front had a far worse experience.

    The war in Russia had brutalised those who fought there – on both sides. The common standards of decency even in war all but disappeared. Those German POW’s who were captured were tarred with the known atrocities that had been carried out by the SS. German POW’s were seen as the people who had destroyed vast areas in western Russian and killed millions.

    Therefore, those who had been captured were used to rebuild what they had damaged. If they died doing so, then they died. The Nazi government had warned all German soldiers about the dangers of being captured alive – “a fate worse than death” – and many did not see this as an exaggeration. Russia had failed to co-operate with the Red Cross. Russia had failed to provide a list of captured German soldiers – despite promises – and the Germans reciprocated. German POW’s could expect nothing but the harshest of treatment from the Russians.

    Very many more Germans soldiers became POW’s when the war ended in May 1945. They were expected to rebuild Russia. Gerhard Ohst was sent to Velikiye Luki. Here was Russia’s largest railway repair shop – but a ruin in 1945. 1000 German POW’s were sent to Velikiye Luki to rebuild it. What many expected to take 20 years was completed in just 3 years – but many died doing so, primarily from malnutrition and the diseases associated with it. The Soviet authorities had one requirement – that work that needed to be done was done. How many died doing this work was unimportant. Such an attitude fitted in with the attitude that had prevailed in Russia on both sides since the time of ‘Operation Barbarossa’ in June 1941.

    The Russians divided the prisoners into three classes. Those who exceeded the work required of them – they were given extra rations; those who completed the work required of them got the basic ration of food; those who failed to complete the work required of them, got less than the basic ration. The rations for those who exceeded their work requirement were minimal – and the more hungry someone became, the less productive he was work-wise. A ‘normal’ day’s ration was a bowl of gruel and just over 1lb of bread.
    Twice weekly, German POW’s received lessons in Communism, but there is no evidence that this met with any success. The NKVD was also active in the POW camps hunting out those who had committed war crimes.

    German POW’s frequently had to work alongside Russians who had been assigned to various rebuilding tasks.

    Germans held as POW’s in British camps had access to Red Cross visits. There was a chance of escape but few attempted to do so especially when it became clear that Nazi Germany was not going to win the war.

    Many of the British POW camps were in remote areas of Britain. The escape routes that existed in occupied Western Europe and were manned by resistance fighters did not exist in Britain. Without these manned routes with their safe houses, any Germans who did escape were very much by themselves. Crossing into the Irish Republic was a possibility but this still required crossing water. Crossing the English Cannel was a serious problem for anyone wanting to get back to mainland Europe without being seen.

    The most common cause of complaint to the Red Cross seems to have been about the cold in the huts they were housed in – i.e. the British weather. Another common complaint was about the quality of food served up. The latter complaint was presumably a common one from a British point of view in a German POW camp.

    Once in captivity, a German POW was stripped of any Nazi regalia that they might have on them ranging from ceremonial daggers, badges and arm bands etc.

    The number of German POW’s vastly increased as the Allies broke out of their Normandy landing bases in1944. As the Third Reich started to collapse in 1945, the numbers meant more and more POW camps were needed on mainland Europe. The Germans under the supervision of French troops were sent to work on farms or in mines.

    There was little reason for any German POW to escape and many simply got on with their lot. After the surrender of Nazi Germany, the priority was to get back to Germany itself men qualified in a trade that Germany needed to rebuild itself. As early as the summer of 1945, POW’s who were builders, farmers, drivers etc were sent back to Germany. However, those suspected of war crimes or being members of a political group were held back for further questioning.

  10. #50
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    "Also, you should know that the majority of Germans were not Nazis. By the way, they got that name because they were nationalist, and that is what they became known as"

    NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party

    I agree with you about book reviews. Facts are facts, however, it is the interpretations of the facts that sometimes distort......
    “If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” Winston Churchill

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardrock View Post
    Go snivel at the graves at Normandy, and countless American bodies never recovered. My folks fought and died on that miserable
    continent I have the silver stars to prove it. Your lame interpretation of events 75 years ago are a gross misinterpretation of what happened. Did I tell you about my uncle Henry? Bronze star Silver star, with Patton all the way through. What about my uncle Jasper?
    Three silver stars and one bronze? Did I tell you about my FIL? Fought all the way with Taffy 2. How about my dad? Naval medic attached to a Marine battalion, He hauled water food and ammo to the front and the dead and wounded back to aid. They were both at the invasion of Okinawa. So, screw you and your comfort goat.
    That makes you equally responsible and accountable for slavery, stealing and annihilating First Nations people and lands. No one is sniveling, I stated a legal fact of law and you come unglued for the greater glory of the War to Save Joe Stalin. We fought the wrong socialists, according to Patton and the other fighting generals.
    Civilians are not combatants, P.O.W's are not combatants, a war crime is a war crime and the U.S. is guilty.

    My dad's uncle was a belly gunner in a B-17 and the first wave of airmen to arrive in England. He would have been appalled and ashamed had he known about the U.S. holocaust on German civilians. Seems Yankees are still fighting the First Battle of Bull Run and still enforcing Reconstruction. Everyone else made peace and went back to work.

    Europeans and Asians are mockingly amused that we are still fighting WWII. Give it a rest, the war is over and Joe Stalin won.
    "Approach with a calm resolve, attack with reckless indifference." Gladius Republicae!
    "...use gold like it's gunpowder..."

    Train and be ready, for that day will come!

  12. #52
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    The war is over, what difference does it make? All sides committed "nasties", some more so than others. Let's face it. If someone wants to make Russia into a parking lot, go for it. That's what Patton wanted to do after he had dealt with Hitler. Too bad he didn't get his way.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBreeze View Post
    ...If someone wants to make Russia into a parking lot, go for it. That's what Patton wanted to do after he had dealt with Hitler. Too bad he didn't get his way...
    Because we had "the Bomb" and they didn't!
    "Approach with a calm resolve, attack with reckless indifference." Gladius Republicae!
    "...use gold like it's gunpowder..."

    Train and be ready, for that day will come!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBreeze View Post
    The war is over, what difference does it make? All sides committed "nasties", some more so than others. Let's face it. If someone wants to make Russia into a parking lot, go for it. That's what Patton wanted to do after he had dealt with Hitler. Too bad he didn't get his way.
    I agree with this, to a point.
    The point is this is something that a lot of people didn't know. It is history, just like the civil war, and it should be known. So we don't repeat it, yes?
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
    — Robert Heinlein

  15. #55
    Yes, the story in the OP actually happened. The story sounds embellished here and there but for the most part is factually correct.

    After VE day Eisenhower had the captured German soldiers reclassified as foreign military nationals (or something to that effect) so they prisoners would not fall under Geneva convention POW rules. This allowed the US occupation forces to not feed them the stipulated 2500 calories per day under Geneva convention rules. Many German soldiers starved to death, as well as suffering from any number of camp diseases (typhus, cholera, etc)
    There were a number of German POW camps post war, and conditions resembled those at Andersonville prison during the war of northern Aggression. Horrendous conditions.

    The Dutch used the POWs under their control in work gangs, clearing landmines out of minefields. Over 250 German POWs died in a 6 month period under their care.

    And the destroy excess food rather than feed it to Germans is also factual. This stemmed from Henry Morgenthau, the treasury? secretary under FDR. His report to FDR on what to do with Germany post WW2 was called the Morgenthau report and advocated bringing Germany from an industrialized nation to an almost agrarian one. And exercise population control so that they could be self sufficient with the agriculture they produced. Germany after the war could export items to other nations, but could not accept foodstuffs and only very limited mechanical items as payment. And US troopers wives who were in Germany post WW2 were told not to give ANY leftovers to their German house help. This went on until the Marshall plan gained traction, the hunger war orders were rescinded by Pres. Truman in late 1946.

    Remember hearing about the German hunger winter of 1946-47? The Morgenthau orders were rescinded just before the winter of 1946-so yes we essentially caused that period of starvation. The infant mortality rates from 1945-49 were 10 times what they were pre war; the US denied people and non profit groups being able to send foodstuffs to Germans. This order was eventually rescinded, CARE packages were finally allowed to be sent to German nationals in the summer of 1946.CARE guaranteed a 4 MONTH delivery window for these packages; so those first CARE packages hit Germany in the dead of the Hunger winter. Too little, too late.

    So yes, the OP is correct in his facts. His axe to grind approach smells suspiciously of a hit piece to some group or another however.

  16. #56
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    I have read about this a long time ago. I think most of it is true. That is why there is a saying to save the last bullet for yourself.
    Guns, Grub, and God!

  17. #57
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    It's interesting that we a moralize over the most immoral act committed by mankind. War isn't nice. It's not merely a contest. It's kill more people on the other side than they do to you. That's it. If people insist on getting into war, they'd better not lose. The loser gets devastated. Witness Rome and Carthage. The Punic Wars went on for over a century. In the end, Carthage ceased to exist. When the South lost the Civil War (call it what you like, I don't care), they were brutalized with Reconstruction. When Germany lost the first war, they were flushed down the toilet after the armistice. Same on the second war. South Vietnamese were butchered after Ho and company won. Same in Cambodia. On and on.

    If you're going to get into a war, don't lose. You lose it all. The winner takes all, continues to kill, rapes the women and children and gets to write the history. Don't lose. Better off to keep fighting and get killed than to surrender.
    1. If you import the Third World, you become the Third World. It really is that simple.
    2. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist
    3. If you have not been to the range in a month, you are under performing.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBreeze View Post
    ...If someone wants to make Russia into a parking lot, go for it. That's what Patton wanted to do after he had dealt with Hitler. Too bad he didn't get his way...
    Quote Originally Posted by Voortrekker View Post
    Because we had "the Bomb" and they didn't!
    The two nukes that America had were used on Japan and it would takes months if not longer to build additional nukes....

    Texican....

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBreeze View Post
    The war is over, what difference does it make? All sides committed "nasties", some more so than others. Let's face it. If someone wants to make Russia into a parking lot, go for it. That's what Patton wanted to do after he had dealt with Hitler. Too bad he didn't get his way.
    Some here (me included) have a genuine interest in post war history and politics.
    III

  20. #60
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    My dad was in WWII and fought in North Africa against Rommel and then moved to the Sicilian campaign. He would have gone on to D-day but was shipped out to guard German prisoners on their way back to the US. Never heard of the treatment described in the article. The only problem he ever mentioned were from the SS officers.

    rh

  21. #61
    Count me in on that.

    If you don't study and learn history, we are doomed to repeat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turret Buster View Post
    Some here (me included) have a genuine interest in post war history and politics.

  22. #62
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    As a general rule, losing a war puts you on the $#it end of the stick.

    A lot of peeps in the south are still pissed about Sherman and his post-war treachery.
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

    Deplorable


  23. #63
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    There's something else I don't think the OP mentioned, but Ike refused to let the Red Cross visit the concentration camps that he ran, so it was not generally known by outsiders, what atrocious conditions were committed, there.

    Yes, I have an intense interest in history....the older I get, the more i want to know about it.

    For those of you who don't know, my late husband (ten years older than I) was in on the initial landing of D-Day on Omaha Beach. A German soldier almost killed him, but Joe was able to shoot him, first. He held no hatred....all his life, he felt guilty for killing that soldier, since he knew the man was doing what he had to, as well.

    Before I married Joe, I had negative interest in the war, and he knew very little of what went on, except what he saw, in his arena, so together, we started reading many books about WW 2. It really opened our eyes.

    We Americans have not been told the truth about so many things, but why should we be surprised....the first thing that disappears in war is the truth!

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texican View Post
    The two nukes that America had were used on Japan and it would takes months if not longer to build additional nukes....

    Texican....

    Yes, and no....

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/us-pla...bombs-on-japan

    snip-

    Archival records show a third bomb was under assembly at Tinian in the Mariana Islands where the Enola Gay and Bockscar had flown from, with the main plutonium core about to be shipped from the U.S.

    Although some aircrew saw “Tokyo Joe” chalked on the bomb’s casing, it was said to be destined for Kokura, the original target for the second bomb, and named “Fat Boy.”

    A transcript of a top-level call between two military experts on August 13 reveals details of this “third shot.” It also confirmed that a vast production line of about 12 other atomic bombs was being readied for additional continuous strikes against other key targets.

    It was agreed this next bomb would be available to be dropped on August 19, with a schedule of further bombs available throughout September and October.
    III

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    A lot of peeps in the south are still pissed about Sherman and his post-war treachery.
    Yes.
    Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon· hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon. - Listen! We of the Spear-Danes in the days of yore, of those clan-kings heard of their glory. How the worthy princes performed courageous deeds!

  26. #66
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    The OA made me angry. I am a German immigrant whose father fought in Russia, fled from Russian imprisonment, was captured by the Americans on May 3, 1945.
    He was a newspaper editor by profession and kept a diary during the War and during his imprisonment. I have his diary and translated it for my sons.
    My father spent 3 months being moved around in Northern Germany from camp to camp until released on July 29th, 1945.
    Only the first 2 weeks were in American custody, the remainder was conducted by the British occupational forces. His description of conditions covers almost day to day,
    and location to location. Food and water was often scarce, there are no reports of people dying in his diary!
    Their main problem was camping in open air, often in rain storms. He considered himself lucky to have NOT been captured by the Russians.
    There are no entries in his diary (later transcribed from little pads he carried with him) indicating any deliberate maltreatment by his captors.

    I am married to an American woman whose mother fed German prisoners at her table in North Carolina during WW2. They worked at her father's farm and were not supposed
    to enter her house. But there is the South, bless them.

    I am a refugee. My mother fled with her three kids from the Russians near Vienna to Munich in 1945. I am one of the three. Had Satanta's solution been applied, I wouldn't be here.

    I am greatly thankful to have been accepted as a member of my community. When I first came here, WW2 had ended twenty years ago. I worked in an office staffed with all veterans.
    They made me return and stay.

    The original article is a HIT piece.

  27. #67
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    Originally posted by Voortrekker: That makes you equally responsible and accountable for slavery, stealing and annihilating First Nations people and lands.
    That is one of the most blatant revisionist history statements I have ever heard on this board. Trying to pin guilt/responsibility for long past deeds, and from someone whose board name is Voortrekker, no less. Biggest mistake Europeans ever made was to settle Africa, and if you want to talk about nasty deeds, there were a lot of them in that process.

    I lived in Germany after the worst of the post-war recovery. The people there were uniformly grateful, not because we won or were "Americans," but because we assured the supply of food and jobs, and were nothing like Hitler. Further, when I visited Leipzig in 2010, there were STILL monstrous piles of bricks left over from the deconstruction of war damaged buildings. They were to be used in new buildings.
    Last edited by willowlady; 01-12-2019 at 09:46 PM.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFK View Post
    The OA made me angry. I am a German immigrant whose father fought in Russia, fled from Russian imprisonment, was captured by the Americans on May 3, 1945.
    He was a newspaper editor by profession and kept a diary during the War and during his imprisonment. I have his diary and translated it for my sons.
    My father spent 3 months being moved around in Northern Germany from camp to camp until released on July 29th, 1945.
    Only the first 2 weeks were in American custody, the remainder was conducted by the British occupational forces. His description of conditions covers almost day to day,
    and location to location. Food and water was often scarce, there are no reports of people dying in his diary!
    Their main problem was camping in open air, often in rain storms. He considered himself lucky to have NOT been captured by the Russians.
    There are no entries in his diary (later transcribed from little pads he carried with him) indicating any deliberate maltreatment by his captors.

    I am married to an American woman whose mother fed German prisoners at her table in North Carolina during WW2. They worked at her father's farm and were not supposed
    to enter her house. But there is the South, bless them.

    I am a refugee. My mother fled with her three kids from the Russians near Vienna to Munich in 1945. I am one of the three. Had Satanta's solution been applied, I wouldn't be here.

    I am greatly thankful to have been accepted as a member of my community. When I first came here, WW2 had ended twenty years ago. I worked in an office staffed with all veterans.
    They made me return and stay.

    The original article is a HIT piece.
    Thank you for your comment and your fathers first hand report.
    Yes the OP is a hit piece. Seems there are loathsome self hating people everywhere now days.

    In many ways, books are like the internet. If one searches hard enough he can always find one like in the OP that supports his or her point of view, no matter how despicable, or self hating that point of view may be.
    “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”
    D. H. Lawrence

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    2,786
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    Thank you for your comment and your fathers first hand report.
    Yes the OP is a hit piece. Seems there are loathsome self hating people everywhere now days.

    In many ways, books are like the internet. If one searches hard enough he can always find one like in the OP that supports his or her point of view, no matter how despicable, or self hating that point of view may be.
    I agree. First hand accounts tell the stories much better than revisionist history writers.

  30. #70
    First of all:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiana MaJo
    but Ike refused to let the Red Cross visit the concentration camps that he ran
    Is not only a mischaracterization of Allied POW camps, but a down right lie. They were not "concentration camps".

    The situation depicting the refusal of Red Cross visits is as follows, and is well known, and never was a secret. It's an odd thing to me, that those today who never were involved in WWII, notable the author of the OP think they know so much, and revise history to suit their viewpoint.

    From wiki of all places

    Red Cross food parcels during World War II were mostly provided from Great Britain, the United States (after 1941) and Canada. An Allied PoW might receive any of these packages at any one given time, regardless of his or her own nationality. This was because all such packages were sent from their country of origin to central collection points, where they were subsequently distributed to Axis PoW camps by the International Committee of the Red Cross.
    German PoWs after World War II[edit]
    Three months after the German surrender in May 1945, General Dwight Eisenhower issued an order classifying all surrendered soldiers within the American Zone of Occupation as Disarmed Enemy Forces, rather than Prisoners of War. Accordingly, the Red Cross was denied the right to visit German PoWs in American prison camps, and delivery of Red Cross parcels to them was forbidden.[33] In the spring of 1946 the International Red Cross was finally allowed to provide limited amounts of food aid to prisoners of war in the U.S. occupation zone.[34]

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    Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF, less commonly,[1] Surrendered Enemy Forces) was a US designation for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended and for those who had already surrendered POWs and held in camps in occupied German territory at the time.[2] It was Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post-World War II occupied Germany.[3]
    Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation, along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP), was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention.
    Number of surrenders in World War II[edit]
    Approximately 35 million POWs were taken in World War II, 11 million of them Germans.[9][18] In addition to 20 million dislocated citizens, the U.S. Army had to cope with most of the surrendered German army.[19] While the Allies had anticipated 3 million surrendering Germans, the actual total was as many as 5 million in American hands by June 1945 out of 7.6 million in northwestern Europe alone, not counting the 1.4 million in Allied hands in Italy.[19] Approximately 1 million were Wehrmacht soldiers fleeing west to avoid capture by the Red Army.[19]
    The number of Germans surrendering to U.S. forces shot up from 313,000 by the end of the first quarter of 1945, to 2.6 million by April 1945 and more than 5 million in May.[20][21][22] By April 1945, entire German Army groups were surrendering, which overwhelmed Allied shipping such that German prisoners could no longer be sent to POW camps in America after March 1945.[23] According to a June 22, 1945 announcement by the Allies, a total of 7,614,914 prisoners (of all designations) were held in British and American camps.[24]
    Although the British and Americans agreed to split the western Germans who surrendered,[24] the British recanted arguing that they "did not have places to keep them or men to guard them on the continent, and that moving them to England would arouse public resentment and adversely affect British morale."[25] By June 1, 1945, Eisenhower reported to the War Office that this refusal produced shortages in the 25 million prisoner-day rations which were growing at the rate of 900,000 prisoner-day rations.[25][26] Feeding this number of people became a logistical nightmare for SHAEF, which frequently had to resort to improvisation.[25]
    DEF and SEP designations[edit]
    With regard to food requirements, regardless of the reasoning or GC legal requirements, SHAEF was simply not capable of feeding all of the millions of German prisoners at the level of Allied base soldiers because of the high numbers and lack of resources. This was not deliberate policy, but the result of wartime damage to the infrastructure, which created the difficult problem of feeding the defeated peoples without it.[20] In a March 10, 1945 cable to the CCS, Eisenhower requested permission for this designation per the earlier EAC documents, and was granted such permission.[31] When the CCS approved Eisenhower's March 1945 request, it added that prisoners after Victory in Europe (V-E Day) should not be declared "Prisoners of War" under the Geneva Convention because of the lack of food.[34]
    Controversy[edit]
    In his 1989 book Other Losses, James Bacque claimed that Allied Supreme Commander Dwight Eisenhower deliberately caused the death of 790,000 German captives in internment camps through disease, starvation and cold from 1944 to 1949. Bacque charges that some of these deaths were DEF designated soldiers that could receive harsh treatment because they did not fall within the Geneva Convention protections. Stephen Ambrose, at the time director of the Eisenhower Center at the University of New Orleans, also organized a conference of eight British, American, and German historians, which disputed Bacque's claims.[41][41][42][43] Niall Ferguson wrote that Bacque's "calculations grossly exaggerate both the number of Germans the Americans captured and their mortality".[44] Ambrose did concede: "we as Americans can't duck the fact that terrible things happened. And they happened at the end of a war we fought for decency and freedom, and they are not excusable".[45]
    Rheinwiesenlager
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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    Rheinwiesenlager
    Rhine meadow camps
    Part of Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTE)
    West Germany

    A U.S. soldier at Camp Remagen guarding thousands of German soldiers captured in the Ruhr area in April 1945.
    Site information
    Controlled by
    U.S. Army
    Wehrmachtordnungstruppe
    Site history
    Built by
    U.S. Army
    In use
    April 1945 – September 1945
    Events
    1,000,000 ~ 1,900,000 prisoners
    3,000 ~ 6,000 deaths
    Garrison information
    Occupants
    Disarmed Enemy Forces
    The Rheinwiesenlager (German: [ˈʁaɪnˌviːzn̩ˌlaːɡɐ], Rhine meadow camps) were a group of 19 camps built in the Allied-occupied part of Germany by the U.S. Army to hold captured German soldiers at the close of the Second World War. Officially named Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTE), they held between one and almost two million surrendered Wehrmacht personnel from April until September 1945.
    Prisoners held in the camps were designated disarmed enemy forces, not prisoners of war. This decision was made in March 1943 by SHAEF commander in chief Dwight D. Eisenhower: by not classifying the hundreds of thousands of captured troops as POWs, the logistical problems associated with accommodating so many prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention governing their treatment were negated.
    Most estimates of German deaths in these camps range from 3,000 to 6,000. Many of these died from starvation, dehydration and exposure to the weather elements because no structures were built inside the prison compounds.

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