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GUNS/RLTD 'Spice' And Self Defense
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  1. #1
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    'Spice' And Self Defense

    https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot...f-defense.html

    Wednesday, November 7, 2018
    Sobering thoughts on self-defense firearms from a Minnesota cop

    I have a friend who's a police officer in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area of Minnesota. He's got more than twenty years service, and is looking forward to retiring soon. He's had a lot of "street" and "hands-on" experience, and knows whereof he speaks. I'll call him Mike for the purposes of this discussion (not his real name).

    Mike got in touch a few days ago. After the usual pleasantries between friends, he got down to business. He said that the current crop of synthetic marijuana, sometimes known as "spice" (and by up to 700 other street names), is producing some truly weird and sometimes very dangerous effects in its users. He's personally encountered several addicts with superhuman strength, who don't seem able to feel pain at all. Even a Taser will only slow them down, not stop them. If they're shot with standard police handgun rounds, they often don't go down, and require a large number of rounds to do the job (which are often lethal, of course).

    Mike warned me that such addicts are being encountered more and more often, and in more and more areas. He said that it's no longer safe to assume they're a big-city problem; they're being encountered in smaller towns and rural areas too. He also said, very soberly, that typical deep-concealment (i.e. small, lightweight) pocket revolvers and pistols are simply not adequate to deal with people under the influence of this stuff. His personal opinion was that .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special, and even 9mm. Luger or .357 Magnum rounds, if fired from smaller weapons whose barrels aren't sufficiently long to give high velocity and promote bullet expansion, are not going to get the job done against a hopped-up addict who won't even realize he's been shot.

    Mike knew I had a couple of revolvers chambered in .44 Special and .45 Colt. He recommended very strongly that I get a couple more, and use them for pocket carry instead of smaller weapons, because with the right ammunition (I use Buffalo Bore's .44 Special hard-cast wadcutter), they're much more effective at stopping someone who won't notice hits from smaller calibers. He says they're not nearly as good as a shotgun slug, which he recommends from personal experience, but in a small, concealable weapon, he says such rounds are more likely to get the job done, particularly at halitosis range.

    I'm taking Mike's advice; and I thought I'd share it with my readers, in case any of you have read reports about this sort of thing in your area, and want to be better prepared to deal with it if the need should arise. Please God, it won't: but in this day and age, one never knows.

    If you don't have a compact revolver in either .44 Special or .45 Colt, consider the Charter Arms offerings. I've handled and fired both the .44 Special Bulldog (reviewed here, and shown below) and the .45 Colt Bulldog XL (reviewed here: it no longer appears on Charter's Web site, so it may be discontinued). I recommend either model as a low-cost entry-level revolver.

    Charter Arms' quality control can be spotty, so one has to inspect their revolvers carefully and test-fire them to make sure everything works; but if you get a reliable example, they're worth having, and at a reasonable price, too. Holsters of various kinds are freely available to fit them.

    Peter


    Posted by Peter at 11/07/2018 05:43:00 PM
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  2. #2
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    I have no experience with Spice, but from what I hear, people smoke it and right away go to sleep. Kind of like in the Opium dens of the past. You get comfortable, smoke, go to sleep, wake up and repeat. Not my idea of a good way to spend your life.

    They like to call in synthetic pot, due to it mimicking cannabinoids, but it's nothing like pot. A new name for it is "Not Pot". Others call it "Fake and Bake".

  3. #3
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    Do Serbu make their Super Shorty in 10g

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Txkstew View Post
    I have no experience with Spice, but from what I hear, people smoke it and right away go to sleep. Kind of like in the Opium dens of the past. You get comfortable, smoke, go to sleep, wake up and repeat. Not my idea of a good way to spend your life. .
    Not even close...

    Here are just a few videos but there are tons of examples on Youtube:

    ( 1:28 )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XhBwvJOc7w

    ( 3:06 )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMNPI-25yy0
    Deo adjuvante non timendum - With God Helping, Nothing is to be Feared
    "You are like a pit-bull..." - Dennis Olson
    "No man knows but that the last backward glance over his shoulder may be his last look, forever." - Ernie Pyle Born: 1900 KIA: 1945 Shima, Okinawa

  5. #5
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    I don’t know how to embed videos from my iPhone, but you should check out some of the videos of people doing the “flakka dance” (flakka is one of the many synthetic drugs like spice)

    They literally look just like zombies from the movies, it’s extremely disturbing. I’m sure they are feeling no pain but don’t look particularly dangerous. I have no idea why people would even want to do these drugs.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=flak...&bih=553&dpr=3

  6. #6
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    Non Traditional Response

    Merits the Mozambique drill. Two to the body, one to the head.

    Clip.The.Wiring.

    Anatomy is not something to take in school and forget. Refreshers may help with the final exam.

    ETA: Failure Drill is apparently the preferred PC name now.
    "You are allowed to be disappointed but not surprised"

  7. #7
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    The effects of "Spice" and "Bath salts" change because they constantly modify the stuff in it based on how close it is to being outlawed.

    I saw a naked woman eat her way through the back seat of a patrol car and a man rolling in glass in a parking lot yelling "Kill me, Kill me" from this stuff.

  8. #8
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    Ok I got it, full sized 1911 in .45ACP to stop these nuts.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post
    Non Traditional Response

    Merits the Mozambique drill. Two to the body, one to the head.

    Clip.The.Wiring.

    Anatomy is not something to take in school and forget. Refreshers may help with the final exam.

    ETA: Failure Drill is apparently the preferred PC name now.
    Exactly....if you're not training for head shots, you're leaving a big hole in your fight program. Perfect for armored opponents too. Insto-shutdown.
    A handful of 9mm or whatever to the face/head will likely have a positive effect regardless of drug levels. All hits count!
    If it were up to me being a lawyer would be an automatic disqualification from political office.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Thinwater View Post
    I saw a naked woman eat her way through the back seat of a patrol car ...



    whoa....
    float like a butterfly...

  11. #11
    3” .357

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post
    Non Traditional Response

    Merits the Mozambique drill. Two to the body, one to the head.

    Clip.The.Wiring.

    Anatomy is not something to take in school and forget. Refreshers may help with the final exam.

    ETA: Failure Drill is apparently the preferred PC name now.
    Good reminder post.

  13. #13
    I qualified for a 45. Love shooting it, but that is a big gun to carry around.

  14. #14
    "...several addicts with superhuman strength..."

    THIS IS A SPIRITUAL ISSUE.

    AND it is a grave matter.

    Psychoactive drugs like LSD, pot, 'shrooms, angel dust, and 'spice,' crack produce a negative spiritual experience, aka not Christian and give satan and his demons a foothold. Some people that are "Legion" are unusually strong and limber, courtesy of the supernatural.

    In any case, thank you for this thread!
    Psalm 16:11 (NKJV) You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroe View Post
    I qualified for a 45. Love shooting it, but that is a big gun to carry around.


    I do it with no problems and use a IWB hybrid hoster, I did however change the grips out for VZ thin line grips (Elite Tactical Carry) and it narows the profile and I can really get my hand around it and they will not chew you up when holstered.

  16. #16
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    EDC is a Para SS double stack 3-1/2' (L, I cut the sweat guard to cover the grips...got tired of a full tear-down every week to de-rust), alternate is a 3" gun (R), Middle is a Glock 43 in process.





    The trick to actually concealing a full size gun is forming the leather to keep the butt held against your body....otherwise it looks like you have an umbrella tucked in your pants.


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  17. #17
    echtleder?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    echtleder?
    All cow.

    Kydex is for tactical tupperware (glocks).
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

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  19. #19
    Kydex is for kids (and kops).

  20. #20
    I'm carrying the 15+1 and 17+1 9mm with 124gr Fed HST more and more often. My small gun (Sig P365) is even carried 12+1.

    It's a rare occasion I am carrying a mouse gun. Sad times we are living in.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    Kydex is for kids (and kops).
    I don't carry a single gun in leather any longer, kydex is superior in every way. Spend your money as you wish but I expect you have to spend 2-3x as much to get the same performance level as kydex and I don't know anyway except maybe looks where a leather holster outperforms a good kydex rig.

  22. #22
    Re drugs and large calibers...

    I love .45s of every persuasion I have encountered. They are, IMHO, the bestest.

    However, drugs can make people do things unusual (for humans.) I had a LEO family member tell me of a hyped up druggie who took about a dozen .40 S&W rounds and "never slowed, kept coming."

    He was finally stopped by a 12 gauge slug.

    OTOH... sometimes you just run into a determined, tough SOB.

    The following is long but applicable (and interesting.)

    I think I have posted it previously but here it is again as a reminder to those of us who swear by the stopping power of a .45:

    https://americanhandgunner.com/the-l...f-tim-gramins/


    The Lessons Of Tim Gramins

    By Massad Ayoob

    Situation: Backup is racing to help you as you shoot it out with a heavily armed bank robber, but you’re alone for now and running low on ammo.

    Lesson: What’s on your person may be all you’ll have to fight with, so carry enough. Solid positions and aimed fire deliver fight-stopping hits … and knowing what you’re fighting for will make you fight harder.

    August 25, 2008. It’s a sunny and beautiful late afternoon in Skokie, one of the separately incorporated communities surrounding the city of Chicago, Illinois. Of Skokie Police Department’s 124 officers, about 15 are patrolling on the street during the three-to-eleven shift. Inside the Crown Vic Police Interceptor squad car of Officer Tim Gramins, the dedicated ISPERN radio — the Illinois State Police Emergency Radio Network, reserved for serious emergencies — comes to life. A bank has been robbed in nearby Northbrook. The suspect is a black male, average size, driving a white Pontiac. A witness has reported a possible plate number, from a series tracked to the city of Chicago.

    This puts Skokie in between. SPD units proceed to the Edens Expressway, I-94 South, hoping to interdict. Two Skokie units pull over a man and vehicle fitting the description but quickly determine he’s not the suspect they’re looking for. It is then Gramins spots a white Grand Prix, with a lone driver who fits the description.

    They make eye contact with each other, and Gramins recognizes an expression he has seen many times. He calls it “the ‘Oh, boy, here’s the police’ look.” The man floors his accelerator with a sudden lane change, and the chase is on.
    In Pursuit

    Hitting his lights and siren, Gramins radios in his situation. He knows other units will be responding, but has no way to determine how soon backup will catch up with him, particularly in late rush hour traffic. The suspect veers his getaway car across three lanes of traffic to hit the Touhy Avenue exit east, and then bangs a right onto Skokie Boulevard. In the powerful CVPI, Gramins expertly remains on his tail. The chase swerves onto Estes Street after a block, through the intersection of Keating, then right on Kilpatrick.
    And then, the fugitive springs the trap.
    Ambush!

    Here, in a quiet suburban neighborhood right out of a Leave It To Beaver rerun, Gramins sees his quarry slam on his brakes and come to an abrupt stop in the street. Action beats reaction: Gramins responds quickly but by the time his squad car has stopped it is only 15 feet behind the fugitive’s vehicle.

    The white car’s door pops open and out comes the suspect. Gramins sees a silver-colored auto pistol in the man’s hand as it rises over the steering wheel, coming out the door, and swinging toward him. As this is happening, training and practice send Gramins’ left hand across his torso to swiftly release his seat belt, and his right hand to unholster his GLOCK 21 service pistol. But Ray Maddox, a 37-year-old Gangster Disciple gang member who has sworn to kill the next cop who stops him rather than go back behind bars, gets the first shots off.

    Bam, bam, bam, bam! Gramins can hear and even count all four of them, can see Maddox running toward him firing one-handed. Now, though, the cop’s own gun is up in both hands and he fires right through the windshield, indexed on his target, tracking the gunman as he approaches the patrol car door, still shooting.

    Incredibly — perhaps, for Gramins, even miraculously — both men now run out of ammunition and go simultaneously to slidelock.
    Second Magazine

    Both combatants react instantly to the change in the situation. Maddox spins around and runs back to the Pontiac. Gramins explodes out the driver’s door of the squad car, seeking to escape the trap his vehicle has become, and runs between the cars to the right. He’s reloading on the run, ejecting the spent magazine, slapping in a fresh one, and closing the slide. At approximately this time in the gun battle, he is able to radio in: the suspect is out of his vehicle, shots have been fired and he (Gramins) needs help.

    The gunfire has captured the attention of the residents on this quiet street. A 12-year-old boy skateboarding on the sidewalk runs into his house and tells his parents, “There’s a police officer in the street being shot at, call 9-1-1!” Gramins will later tell American Handgunner, the boy is “the bravest kid I’ve ever known.” Gramins can hear the boy’s dad yelling to him like a cheering section, “Get him! Shoot him!” In the heat of the moment, Gramins has time to take some comfort in this.

    Reloaded, he charges the suspect, now on the other side of the vehicles. The officer fires as he goes. He will tell me later, “He (was moving) back toward my car. I don’t think he knew I was off to his left. I charged right at him, and ended up three feet away. I was shooting one-handed when I got close. As I ran toward him firing, I saw no effect.”
    Third Magazine

    Seeing his GLOCK at slide lock again, Gramins sprints to an angle where he can get his patrol car between himself and the gunman, who is still shooting at him but with a different pistol. Again the cop is reloading on the run, demoralized his gunfire has done nothing to stop his deadly attacker, and acutely aware he’s on his last magazine.

    Gramins is now to the right of their two cars, and he sees Maddox is now to the left of his patrol car, using it for cover and crouching down low. An intensively trained SWAT team leader, Gramins tries to use the technique LAPD SWAT employed to successfully neutralize the machinegun-armed suspect Matasureanu in the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery shootout of 1997: he points rather than aims his G21 and fires as he moves, trying to ricochet his bullets under the car and into Maddox’s legs to bring him down. The angle isn’t right, though, and he sees his bullets hitting his own car and front right tire. Time to change the plan, he realizes.
    Finale

    Gramins sees a tree between the sidewalk and the cars in the street. He dives prone behind it, and — trained on the precision rifle as a SWAT cop — realizes he now has the best cover and the most solid shooting position he has had since the gunfight began. Maddox has been popping up and shooting at him like a jack-in-the-box and then crouching deep, watching Gramins from under the car. The cop sees Maddox looking at him now from under the police car.

    Carefully, consciously focusing hard on his front sight, Gramins follows legendary Border Patrol shootist Bill Jordan’s advice (“Take your time, quick!”) and squeezes off three rapid but still carefully-aimed shots, holding on the would-be cop-killer’s head. On the third, Maddox collapses face down. He is no longer shooting. A large pool of blood begins to spread outward from the gunman’s head.
    Gramins keeps him covered. About a minute later, the first responding officers, Detective (now Sergeant) Barnes and Detective Mendez, arrive. Both are fellow SWAT team members. Gramins feels a sense of relief as the backups kick the downed antagonist’s gun out of his reach, and handcuff him.

    It’s over.

    Reconstruction will show from the first shot of the gunfight to the last, 56 seconds have elapsed. During this time 54 pistol shots have been fired, 33 from Gramins’ GLOCK .45, and 21 by Maddox from two pistols.
    Wound Assessment

    Raymond Maddox did not survive. Autopsy showed he had been hit by 17 of Gramins’ 230-gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints. Some had hit extremities, including upper limbs as the officer’s bullets tracked up the gunman’s arms while he was firing at the cop. But Maddox had also been hit in one kidney, both lungs … and the heart. All three of Gramins’ last carefully braced, precisely aimed shots had indeed hit the head, but two had smashed into his face and only the last had pierced the brain and ended the fight.

    Gramins did not emerge entirely unscathed. He caught a bullet fragment in one shin, and bullets going through the glass of the car had sent fragments into his face. He also suffered a significant hearing loss in his left ear, most likely due to firing 13 rounds from his .45 from inside the closed patrol car.

    He, at the hospital in a room adjacent to where the medicos were trying to save Maddox’s life, also had to hear a doctor angrily cry, “Why did the cop have to shoot him so many times?” If only the physician had known …

    The shooting death of Raymond Maddox at the hands of Officer Timothy Gramins was ruled a justifiable homicide. No lawsuit was filed. Gramins received multiple awards for his heroism in the encounter and was later promoted to sergeant.
    Weapon Assessment

    Both the would-be cop-killer and the officer who neutralized him were heavily armed. They had access to seven loaded firearms between them. Gramins deployed only one; Maddox used two.

    Maddox opened fire with a stainless steel 9mm auto which Gramins first thought looked like a Taurus copy of a Beretta, but turned out to be a 16-shot S&W Model 5906. It was recovered, empty, from the front seat of Maddox’s Pontiac, its last spent casing stovepiped where Maddox had dumped it as he grabbed his second weapon. It was a Bersa .380 pistol. The .380 was apparently hit and, unknown to the cop, rendered inoperable by one of Gramins’ .45 rounds near the end of the gunfight. Also in the front seat of the gunman’s car was an SKS semiautomatic rifle, fully loaded with a 30-rd. magazine, and in a box. At least one analyst has suggested Gramins’ charging toward Maddox while emptying the second magazine in his GLOCK kept the gunman from accessing the high-powered semiautomatic rifle. Gramins was told later Maddox’s weapons were tied to four homicides in the city of Chicago.

    Gramins had been carrying his primary sidearm, the 13+1 capacity GLOCK 21, with only 12 rounds per mag because he had found with his magazines, it was sometimes difficult to positively seat them loaded all the way up if the slide was forward. He had the two spare magazines on his duty belt, and also a 9mm subcompact GLOCK 26 backup gun in a holster attached to the Second Chance ballistic vest under his uniform shirt. A Remington 870 pump shotgun loaded with five 12-gauge slugs was racked above him inside the patrol car, and as a SWAT officer, he had an AR-15 in the trunk with several 30-rd. magazines. Like his opponent, he was never able to deploy any of the heavy artillery.
    Lessons

    There are many lessons to be learned from Tim Gramins’ incident, some more obvious than others.

    Carry enough ammunition to finish a worst case scenario fight. After this event, which has been widely publicized among law enforcement, Tim Gramins put his .45 in his gun safe and went with a 9mm. He told me, “We are allowed to pick our weapon. GLOCK, S&W, Beretta and SIG are authorized, and we have our choice of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, all with department issue Gold Dot ammunition.” His duty pistol is now the GLOCK 17, loaded to full capacity with 17+1 rounds of 124-gr. +P 9mm, backed up by 11 rounds of the same in his GLOCK 26, which of course can feed G17 magazines. A slim-line Safariland triple magazine pouch carries three more 17-rd. mags in uniform, and he carries two 33-rd. 9mm magazines behind the trauma shield of his ballistic vest.

    This adds up to 146 rounds on tap. A widely-circulated police article by our mutual friend Charles Remsberg made Tim famous in cop circles as the policeman who carries almost 150 rounds of ammo on his person. “I can carry a hundred rounds more ammo, and it only weighs a couple of pounds,” Gramins told American Handgunner. “Round count seems to be skyrocketing in police gun battles, police running out of ammunition. I don’t want to be in such position. I came close to it, with only four rounds left in my GLOCK 21.”

    The dynamic movement required to escape the kill zone kept Gramins from accessing either the shotgun in the squad car’s cockpit or the AR-15 in its trunk. One lesson this taught him: what you have on your person may be all you have to fight with once a fight goes mobile.

    Aggressive humans can soak up multiple lethal wounds and still continue homicidal action for surprising periods of time. People have taken multiple, massive wounds even from high powered rifles and shotguns, and stayed in the fight. Contrary to popular belief, a heart shot like the one Maddox sustained well before Gramins’ brain shot killed him does not necessarily guarantee the hoped-for “instant one-shot stop.” The medical journals devoted to treatment of trauma show multiple survivors of gunshot wounds to the heart, and forensic pathologists have recorded numerous cases of people who continued conscious, purposeful, sometimes successfully homicidal actions after being shot in the heart. Even if cardiac function is completely shut down, the recipient of the wound has up to 15 or 16 seconds of action left before blood pressure drops below the level it will no longer sustain consciousness, and not all wounds of the heart cause total shutdown. This appears to have been the case with Raymond Maddox in this shooting, who by the way had a “clean toxicology screen,” which showed no alcohol or drugs on board.

    Forensic pathologists tell us there is no post-mortem artifact for adrenalin dump, and even if there was, its effect on the given person experiencing it cannot be precisely predicted. This shooting appears to be a classic example. Mortal wounds are not necessarily instantly fatal. The study of gunfights is replete with cases of “men who were dead, but didn’t know it yet.” It was not possible to reconstruct exactly when Maddox took the cardiac hit, but it is absolutely possible he was up and running for almost a minute despite a .45 caliber gunshot wound to the heart before the final bullet to the brain short-circuited his central nervous system and ended the encounter.

    Training is critical! As a SWAT cop prior to this shooting, Tim had extensive experience shooting through barriers such as windshield glass, from both sides, and this stood him in good stead in the opening of the gunfight when he essentially “broke the ambush” by returning fire through the windshield from the driver’s seat. Extensive Simunitions-based “force on force” role-play had prepared him as best as possible for shooting a murderous criminal who was shooting at him.

    Know what you’re fighting for! The day of this shooting was the eighth birthday of Tim Gramins’ son. Prior to hearing the emergency call over ISPERN, Tim had been pondering when he could take some break time to buy his son the Star Wars game he wanted for his birthday. Throughout the gunfight, Tim was aware of his need to survive for his son and for the rest of his family. He credits this determination for seeing him through the deadly gun battle. The very term “gunfight” is really a misnomer: the guns don’t fight, the people do, and those who know what they’re fighting for have a powerful psychological advantage.

    Finally, the lost lesson of this incident seems to be the importance of aimed fire. At the end, from a solid prone position where Tim had his hardest “front sight focus” of the fight, was when three rapid shots to the head all struck the intended target, the last one “shutting off the computer” and bringing the death battle to a decisive close on the side of The Good Guy.

    The author wishes to thank Sergeant Tim Gramins and the trainers of the Skokie Police Department for the outcome of this shooting, and fellow police writers Chuck Remsberg and Dave Scoville for first spreading the valuable lessons of this life-or-death battle to the law enforcement community.
    Last edited by vestige; 11-08-2018 at 11:20 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty View Post
    I don't carry a single gun in leather any longer, kydex is superior in every way. Spend your money as you wish but I expect you have to spend 2-3x as much to get the same performance level as kydex and I don't know anyway except maybe looks where a leather holster outperforms a good kydex rig.


    No it isn't.

    Kydex doesn't breathe.

    Kydex doesn't break in to fit your body...like an old pair of comfortable slippers

    Kydex makes my butt itch.

    I don't like plastic against my skin.
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

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  24. #24
    Different strokes for different folks.

    I gave all of my Kydex away to those who liked/needed it.

    I don't like the "snik" sound either.

    On a quiet night you can hear it for a hundred yards.

  25. #25
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    If a tazer doesn't reliably work on such a dosed person, that is getting into zombie territory....

  26. #26
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    I'ma thinking that it would be highly unpleasant to slap a chunk of 250 degree plastic on my love handles for forming.

    Maybe Monte has some super-duper-secret process for heating the love handles to 250 for forming plastic??
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Housecarl View Post
    If a tazer doesn't reliably work on such a dosed person, that is getting into zombie territory....
    Happens every day for various reasons.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Housecarl View Post
    If a tazer doesn't reliably work on such a dosed person, that is getting into zombie territory....
    If they are eating a victims face... a first clue that "riding the lightning" probably won't bother them.


    A string of bath salts incidents...

    https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/face-...ry?id=16470389
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    All cow.

    Kydex is for tactical tupperware (glocks).
    I'm sure glad that I don't have any of those infernal glocks. Otherwise, I'd have to give up my fine kydex holster collection.
    My OWB holsters are custom full kydex. My IWB holsters are production hybrids; leather against the skin with an attached kydex half body on the outside.
    I primarily shoot tactical tupperware of some flavor, but not glocks, so full and hybrid kydex works well for me.
    I don't hate leather holsters. I do find advantages with kydex though not directly against my skin. That is where the ultimate heresy of the hybrid leather/kydex holster joins the party.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911user View Post
    I'm sure glad that I don't have any of those infernal glocks. Otherwise, I'd have to give up my fine kydex holster collection.
    My OWB holsters are custom full kydex. My IWB holsters are production hybrids; leather against the skin with an attached kydex half body on the outside.
    I primarily shoot tactical tupperware of some flavor, but not glocks, so full and hybrid kydex works well for me.
    I don't hate leather holsters. I do find advantages with kydex though not directly against my skin. That is where the ultimate heresy of the hybrid leather/kydex holster joins the party.
    I've got a coupla OWB paddle holsters that were originally purchased for their positive retention mechanism.

    At the time, it was a good option for riding 4-wheelers & such.

    Any more, I just carry IWB...all the time.
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    I've got a coupla OWB paddle holsters that were originally purchased for their positive retention mechanism.

    At the time, it was a good option for riding 4-wheelers & such.

    Any more, I just carry IWB...all the time.
    I was doing IWB for everything until I started carrying a backpack for deer hunting prep this year. It wasn't uncomfortable, but access to the IWB pistol was really slowed by the pack.
    I went back to OWB when carrying a pack and it worked better for me with no loss of draw speed.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911user View Post
    I was doing IWB for everything until I started carrying a backpack for deer hunting prep this year. It wasn't uncomfortable, but access to the IWB pistol was really slowed by the pack.
    I went back to OWB when carrying a pack and it worked better for me with no loss of draw speed.
    I can see it being an issue with plate carriers too.

    Mebbe I need to test drive that combo.
    Proud Infidel...............and Cracker

    Member: Nowski Brigade

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    I can see it being an issue with plate carriers too.

    Mebbe I need to test drive that combo.
    I had to go to a tactical vest with a cross-draw holster on the outside. This is over plates. This meant an EXTRA weapon. I still carry the iwb gun as always. Granted, I haven't done enough running and dirt rolling to look for issues. I don't think I'll notice the iwb with plates. There's that naked feeling w/o it. It is slower to access, so I went cross-draw.

    ETA: Even the largest plates aren't long enough for me. Guys with a more compact torso may have plate/gun contact especially on a hi rise iwb. Looks like the pros go with the leg holster. At least on the teevee shows.
    Last edited by Luddite; 11-09-2018 at 04:26 AM.
    "You are allowed to be disappointed but not surprised"

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post
    I had to go to a tactical vest with a cross-draw holster on the outside. This is over plates. This meant an EXTRA weapon. I still carry the iwb gun as always. Granted, I haven't done enough running and dirt rolling to look for issues. I don't think I'll notice the iwb with plates. There's that naked feeling w/o it. It is slower to access, so I went cross-draw.

    ETA: Even the largest plates aren't long enough for me. Guys with a more compact torso may have plate/gun contact especially on a hi rise iwb. Looks like the pros go with the leg holster. At least on the teevee shows.
    The drop leg holster was originally an improvised job made by the SAS CT teams to be able to wear there pouches & assualt vests together, they then had Len Dixon in Manchester, UK make them to their specifications.


  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thinwater View Post
    The effects of "Spice" and "Bath salts" change because they constantly modify the stuff in it based on how close it is to being outlawed.

    I saw a naked woman eat her way through the back seat of a patrol car and a man rolling in glass in a parking lot yelling "Kill me, Kill me" from this stuff.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Millwright View Post
    No it isn't.

    Kydex doesn't breathe.

    Kydex doesn't break in to fit your body...like an old pair of comfortable slippers

    Kydex makes my butt itch.

    I don't like plastic against my skin.
    Why does your holster need to breathe? My firearm doesn't breathe either.

    My kydex doesn't need to break in, it fits just fine.

    I wear undershirts/underwear pretty much all the time, when it don't, kydex against my skin isn't an issue (aggressive grips are much more of an issue).

    I understand, some people like leather, in my evaluation though, kydex beats it on all counts.

    Hybrids, I've yet to try one that I liked. I may be trying out a Black Arch soon though, could change that.

  37. #37
    My cc instructor said he personally preferred leather for all day carry. Molds to the body, handles perspiration better (the "breathing" part), and holds up well.
    Everyone is going to be different.
    I'll probably end up settling for a belly band holster, I mostly wear skirts.

  38. #38
    At one time I had several nice leather holsters, Alesia, Kramer, Rosen...I just checked, can't touch one of those for under $125 for a standard OWB now. By contrast, a nice Kydex can be had for $50. Guess part of it is I'm cheap, lol. But I honestly don't believe there is anything I am sacrificing except maybe the visual appeal of a nicely crafted animal hide holster.

  39. #39
    Getting back to the OP subject matter and "drifting" away from the side topic of holster material preferences...

    If you don't have the opportunity to perform experiments on live human targets (the opportunity may arise at any moment the way things are headed) do so on targets of size close to humans like deer. Use handguns of various calibers ranging from small to large and observe the visible difference in terminal effects. You can ascertain the legality/morality of such actions for yourself.

    Lacking the above opportunities... set up heavy, impenetrable, non-ricocheting targets such as heavy oak blocks or suspended sand bags and do the same tests at ranges you would "start shooting" if attacked. You will notice significant differences in the terminal effects of large bore and smaller bore handguns. I have done this with gauged equipment and the differences are readily visible and, if done properly, measurable.

    The differences you see will be attributable to two common equations:

    K.E. = 1/2 m v2 (<<< 2 superscript on v)

    M1V1 = M2V2 (subscripts on all numerals)


    The differences in terminal effect are roughly (somewhat exaggerated by me) equivalent to a BB hitting you at 1500 feet/second velocity and a bowling ball hitting you at "only" 500 feet per second velocity.

    Mentally visualize the difference.

    Stopping power... Mack truck vs Ferrari

    BTW: The above has been argued for decades.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    Getting back to the OP subject matter and "drifting" away from the side topic of holster material preferences...

    <snip>.

    Stopping power... Mack truck vs Ferrari

    BTW: The above has been argued for decades.
    Ouch, I think we'll do better getting agreement on Kydex vs leather, lol.

    I think this is a good bottom line, if it isn't used by law enforcement or on medium-big game, there's a good chance it may disappoint when used against the zombies.
    Wickr = gongum

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