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FASCISM Pro life vs. pro choice
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  1. #41
    To even extent that view point would Delta and Anrol5 extent the "right of choice" to men, to use their bodies in what ever means they see fit?

    Just guessing but I would think y'all would say yes, so long as that choice doesn't make women victims through rape, or forced marriages, cause harm to women, children and other men. Then why won't you extent those same requirements to the unborn human? The term fetus is used to describe the early development of a human life. Just as child, teenager, young adult, middle aged, and elderly are used to describe those stages of development. Using the word fetus doesn't make it non-human.

    Causing the heart to stop beating is considered death, whether that is to a fetus, or someone in an old folks home. They no longer live.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anrol5 View Post
    So neither lighteecho, Robin Hood, MthGal, Terriannie, or krystan, have discussed the deaths of pregnant women. They were someone's sister, someone's daughter, someone's wife, someone's mother, somebody cares about them. To the people who loved them, their loss is devastating. You clearly don't care for them.

    In Eire a beautiful, intelligent wife died because because abortion is banned. The couple just wanted a baby. Her death was completely unnecessary. Why can't you talk about her? Describe her. Discuss her horrible death, and the way her husband was devastated by her loss.

    I am infertile women who wants children. I would not have an abortion. Women like me die because of anti abortion legislation. You think banning abortion is good. So you must think the deaths of women like me are good. Why? OK I would stop annoying you on the bulletin boards.

    I would like you describe how we die, and why anti abortionists cause our deaths. Can you do that? Or can you only see abortion.

    Discuss how the ban on Federal Funding for abortion caused the deaths of so many, including new born babies.

    I keep feeling that people on this board are incapable of discussing the negatives of abortion. They cannot face up to the murders they commit. This is the problem with abortion. People die what ever you do.

    Unfortunately people on this board seem to live in some fantasy world, where only good things happen when you ban abortion. I don't mind you inhabiting that imaginary world. What I object to is you pass laws, that force everyone else to enter that dream, and so cause ginormous amounts of pain, misery and suffering that you refuse to acknowledge, let alone discuss.



    A slave has no right over their body. They must do exactly as they are told, when they are told to do it. If their owner neglects them and they die. It does not matter. When laws are passed to ban abortion, women, and because the effect ripple out it turns out men also do not have control over their own bodies. Their bodies are owned by the state. They can die of neglect, just like a slave. And to anti abortionists, their deaths do not appear to matter.

    Anrol
    I guess you didn't see my pictures of legalized abortions gone bad. Punch in "abortion clinic ambulances" in an image search. You will see a LOT more. This proves that women HAVE died, been harmed, or become sterile, after LEGAL abortions!

    So, your lengthy and oft-repeated reasonings, including "slavery" now? The fact is, a pregnant woman's body has another HUMAN inside for 9 months. 9 months is hardly, "slavery."

    But guess what? She WILL get her body back and if she puts the baby up for adoption, her LIFE back as well. Of course, that means the baby has life too and whether she wants the child or not, doesn't change that 9 month fact and it has been that fact for every woman born since Eve. That's what's called, "That's the way it is."

    How can you explain the erosion of the Hippocratic Oath a Dr. takes to protect and try to save BOTH mother and child? Before Roe/Wade, it didn't matter if a baby was wanted or not. They recognized the baby as HUMAN and it was always understood that in the case of a mother in danger of dying before a baby is born, they would try their hardest to keep the baby in utero as long as possible before the mother's danger is imminent, even to the point of having the NICU unit at the ready before inducing labor. In the case of early danger, they would remove the baby mostly because both would die anyway. I'm talking about America here, NOT Ireland. (Where they indeed, sadly, dropped the ball.)

    Now, it's ok for a baby to be killed and removed for 100 different reasons, mostly NOT because of rare, life or death! Drs. going against that Hippocratic "now, fuzzy" Oath are flat out, hypocrites!!!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercyangel View Post
    Two thoughts about this: If we should be free to do whatever we want because it's "our" body, then 1. why isn't suicide legal? and 2. why isn't prostitution legal?
    Both should be legal.
    And most countries are moving to make it so.
    If someone does not have the freedom to choose not to live, then they are slaves to a dictatorship.
    Your life, your choice.
    We praise a soldier who jumps on a grenade and chooses to end his life to save others, but then choose to prevent others who are suffering from constant pain and terminal illness from deciding when enough is enough.

    Who the F do we think we are?

    Does society own us body and soul?
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Macgyver View Post
    My libertarian side says do what you want.
    Then your ilbertarian side should also allow killing people who get in your way.
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  5. #45
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    I'm definitely Pro-Life under all circumstances. Had two friends, one who delivered a baby at six month, (mid 70's) and after several months in the hospital she survived & thrived. She became the Homecoming Queen of her high school and ultimately became a doctor who practices in New York. The other had an abortion at six months & never could conceive a child after that. I never could wrap my head around killing a child. Sadly, child advocacy only begins at birth.
    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Suspecting my comment would hijack the Chelsea Clinton thread, I thought I'd make a new thread.

    I wish we'd separate the attitude about abortion (pro or con) from the issue of choice. I happen to be very pro choice, believing that we all have liberty (and responsibility) I also believe that a woman has the liberty to make choices about her own body. But I happen to also believe that abortion is the wrong choice. But I don't think that gives me the right to make that choice for the mother.

    I'm bothered by society/government making choices for us, whether it is where we live, what we eat, what we worship, etc. Rather to teach that we have choice, and along with it the responsibility for the choices we make.

    By lumping those issues together, we've allowed the pro-abortion advocates to obscure the fact that the mother is killing their kid behind the façade of exercising a basic liberty.

    By using our political clout to force a particular morality (anti abortion) onto society, we justify the efforts of others to generate political clout to force their morality onto us. It works both ways.

    Frankly, I think the conservatives are on the wrong side of this issue. The problem is to embrace choice without seeming to embrace pro-abortion.
    I think you are right. Abortion should be legal but rare.

    Those against abortion should, instead of telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body, concentrate on offering alternatives.
    Offer counseling, offer financial aid, but stop trying to force your religious beliefs on others.

    If you personally don't approve of abortion, then don't have one. Do your best to preach to and persuade others not to have one, but you have no right to force your religious beliefs on others.

    In the Bible, the penalty for killing a fetus is a fine, but if you kill the mother the penalty is death.
    After the baby has taken it's first breath it is considered a human being and if you kill it then the penalty is death.

    ---------------------------------------------

    According to statistics, black and minority young women are twice as likely to become pregnant as young white women. Stop all abortion and blacks will soon outnumber whites in this country.
    Hell if you don't like abortion, then go volunteer to adopt and raise one of those minority babies.
    Actions speak louder than words.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    Offer counseling, offer financial aid, but stop trying to force your religious beliefs on others.
    Does it have to be religious beliefs? Or perhaps a belief common to all civilized societies that life has intrinsic value [especially innocent and vulnerable life]? This was never an issue for almost 200 years of American history as the nation as a whole believed abortion was wrong. Whats to say that almost 200 years is wrong and today's relativism is right? As a society there was a lot more respect for life in the past history of this nation and that was also when the nation indeed was great. Loss of a respect for life leads to a loss of respect in so many other areas as well. The constitution enshrines life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Many would ascribe that to the religious beliefs of the founders and that certainly played a part....it was important to them as it should be so us. As far as forcing religious beliefs on others I am somewhat in agreement with you. But in that case is not the opposite true as well? When it comes down to arguments on abortion are not the communists and atheists also forcing their amoral or immoral lifestyle on others by demanding that abortion on demand be legal and that our tax dollars be used to support it when it never was before except for the past 50 years?
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hfcomms View Post
    Does it have to be religious beliefs? Or perhaps a belief common to all civilized societies that life has intrinsic value [especially innocent and vulnerable life]? This was never an issue for almost 200 years of American history as the nation as a whole believed abortion was wrong. Whats to say that almost 200 years is wrong and today's relativism is right? As a society there was a lot more respect for life in the past history of this nation and that was also when the nation indeed was great. Loss of a respect for life leads to a loss of respect in so many other areas as well. The constitution enshrines life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Many would ascribe that to the religious beliefs of the founders and that certainly played a part....it was important to them as it should be so us. As far as forcing religious beliefs on others I am somewhat in agreement with you. But in that case is not the opposite true as well? When it comes down to arguments on abortion are not the communists and atheists also forcing their amoral or immoral lifestyle on others by demanding that abortion on demand be legal and that our tax dollars be used to support it when it never was before except for the past 50 years?
    This 100%.^^^^^

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    I think you are right. Abortion should be legal but rare.

    Those against abortion should, instead of telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body, concentrate on offering alternatives.
    Offer counseling, offer financial aid, but stop trying to force your religious beliefs on others.

    If you personally don't approve of abortion, then don't have one. Do your best to preach to and persuade others not to have one, but you have no right to force your religious beliefs on others.

    In the Bible, the penalty for killing a fetus is a fine, but if you kill the mother the penalty is death.
    After the baby has taken it's first breath it is considered a human being and if you kill it then the penalty is death.

    ---------------------------------------------

    According to statistics, black and minority young women are twice as likely to become pregnant as young white women. Stop all abortion and blacks will soon outnumber whites in this country.
    Hell if you don't like abortion, then go volunteer to adopt and raise one of those minority babies.
    Actions speak louder than words.
    Just a couple of notes to your comments:

    Making it legal but rare: once anything is legalized, it never is rare, it quickly becomes the standard-note marijuana (not to chance the subject just noting) drinking alcohol (not advocating going back to prohibition either) gambling, legal prostitution just to name a few vices that have become legal. Not a vice but once it became legal to do 70 on the interstate, most drove 70.

    offering alternatives: Has been done so much that cities have passed ordinances to keep people back who offer it. And is there anyone in the western world that doesn't know you can put your child up for adoption? And Planned Parenthood gives "the pill" away. and many places offer free condoms.

    Do you best to preach against it: being done here

    Black women: they have the children to increase the number of children without dad's to increase their income. And all the contraceptives are offered free. Think about it. So they don't offer them for adoption.

    Just saying or rather preaching.

  10. #50
    If you personally don't approve of abortion, then don't have one. Do your best to preach to and persuade others not to have one, but you have no right to force your religious beliefs on others.
    The children who get killed don't have the right to choose whether to be killed or not.

    I notice all the pro-"choice" voices don't want those killed to have a choice.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    The children who get killed don't have the right to choose whether to be killed or not.

    I notice all the pro-"choice" voices don't want those killed to have a choice.
    I notice that all those who would make abortion illegal won't adopt the millions of those babies,or even offer to support them and their mothers for the next 20 years out of their own pocket.

    Abortion will remain legal as long as the majority of people in this country think it should be and not a day longer.
    Right now about 60% say it should be legal in all or most cases and 40% say it should be illegal under all or most cases. That number for allowing abortion is growing. Even many of those against it are willing to make exceptions for rape or incest, which when you think about it, is odd and illogical if indeed, all living tissue is really that precious and sacred.

    Let that 40% of adults against abortion go on record and be registered so they can pay the total cost of having and raising those otherwise aborted babies out of their own pockets. An additional 25% tax on their income might come close to covering it. Although it might be more if you figure in the cost of all those fetal alcohol syndrome and crack addicted babies that would have otherwise never been born.

    If a minority wishes to impose their moral will on the majority then they should pay for it out of their own pocket, and not be like socialists who want everyone else to pay for what they (socialists) think is right.

    When you have to pay for your moral views out of your own pocket instead of having "others" pay for them, people's views usually change.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  12. #52
    I notice that all those who would make abortion illegal won't adopt the millions of those babies,or even offer to support them and their mothers for the next 20 years out of their own pocket.
    There is a huge deficit of infants to adopt because so many are killed. People have to go to foreign countries to adopt babies. Sure, there are older children to adopt, often with serious problems, which not every couple can handle.

    And why should you think that I or any other person who did not have a child be obliged to support it? Stop AFDC and other myriad welfare programs and the number of pregnancies to unmarried women will instantly drop.

    BTW many women who have abortions are MARRIED. It's a convenience.

    Your focus on money money money is very telling. This has nothing to do with money. Stop the welfare, unwed pregnancies will drop, and baby daddies will step up and do their duty. You assume the welfare state will continue. I also note your irritation at the mere concept of morality, as though morals were some kind of handicap that "regular normal" people are not burdened by.

    You refuse to address the basic fact that abortion is killing a human being. Apparently that is just fine with you.
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  13. #53
    I think anyone,not just women should have the opportunity to choose what they do in this life.That is one of the precious gifts that heavenly father gave to the human race.Having a choice means we have a responsibility for those choices. All choices carry consequences,either good or bad.One of the possible consequences of fornication is becoming pregnant.When that happens i don't think you have any choices left.You have made a choice and have received the natural consequences of that choice.The only choices left is accept the result or commit murder.I also think that if we don't at least try to stop this practice WE will not be held blameless.

  14. #54
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    Sorry BeWell but when entitlement payments are 50% of our budget, it is about money.

    The other strange thing is that the people against abortion are like 40%.
    If you want to prevent a woman from having an abortion, maybe you should assume societies cost of supporting that baby for life. Offer her some money and adapt the kid and pay for it the rest of your life. Stop preaching your morality for others and live it yourself. Yes you should offer to adapt someone's baby for them if they are considering abortion if it really means that much to you and if you think your morality should override theirs.


    Otherwise quite imposing your morality on others.
    If you had to pay for the moral choices you want to make for others out of your own pocket, your morality would change.


    Oh and someone else was quoting about how all life is sacred, yet over 50% of fertilized eggs never implant or reach birth. They abort naturally. Most of the time without the woman every realizing she was pregnant. God must really suck to allow more potential humans than not to die before they are ever born.
    OR could it be that a fertilized egg is just tissue before it has developed it's first neuron or it's cells have differentiated into organs.

    What are you going to say when technology advances to point of cloning a human being without needing two people, or even raising an artificially fertilized egg in an artificial womb? The time is coming.

    In the bible the penalty for causing a woman to miscarriage is a fine.
    However the penalty for killing the woman or a man is death.
    Doesn't that tell you where God stands on embryos?

    Seriously, my fundamental beef about anti abortion people is that you want to force your moral decision on others but assume no responsibility for the consequences.
    You should pay up or shut up. Most of the people in this country are for allowing each woman to make her own decision.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    Just a couple of notes to your comments:

    Making it legal but rare: once anything is legalized, it never is rare, it quickly becomes the standard-note marijuana (not to chance the subject just noting) drinking alcohol (not advocating going back to prohibition either) gambling, legal prostitution just to name a few vices that have become legal. Not a vice but once it became legal to do 70 on the interstate, most drove 70.

    offering alternatives: Has been done so much that cities have passed ordinances to keep people back who offer it. And is there anyone in the western world that doesn't know you can put your child up for adoption? And Planned Parenthood gives "the pill" away. and many places offer free condoms.

    Do you best to preach against it: being done here

    Black women: they have the children to increase the number of children without dad's to increase their income. And all the contraceptives are offered free. Think about it. So they don't offer them for adoption.

    Just saying or rather preaching.
    I am for mandatory sterilization of any woman who is on welfare because she can't take care of a baby she had. I am also for taking the baby she had away from her because she obviously can't raise it on her own. Maybe one of the anti abortion people here could adapt it and pay for it.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  16. #56
    I agree with you 1000%. It definitely takes two to tango.
    Perhaps it's time for men to man up and take a bit of responsibility. And male contraception would be easier too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MtnGal View Post
    It's easy enough today to prevent pregnancy. That would save 99% of having to consider an abortion.

    Perhaps its time for the man to step up and ask if the woman is using contraception. If not what's stopping the man from using contraception?

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=Hfcomms;7015222]Does it have to be religious beliefs? Or perhaps a belief common to all civilized societies that life has intrinsic value [especially innocent and vulnerable life]? This was never an issue for almost 200 years of American history as the nation as a whole believed abortion was wrong. Whats to say that almost 200 years is wrong and today's relativism is right?

    Actually many societies engaged in infanticide. Everything from discarding defective infants to the wilderness to die, to throwing girl babies over the cliff to get more sons and a better chance to live in old age, to women in India going to doctors to abort female babies. Even the Bible only gives a fine to someone who causes a woman to miscarriage but gives the death sentence to anyone who kills the woman carrying the child. Pretty clear that one is considered a human being and the other is not.



    As a society there was a lot more respect for life in the past history of this nation and that was also when the nation indeed was great. Loss of a respect for life leads to a loss of respect in so many other areas as well. The constitution enshrines life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Many would ascribe that to the religious beliefs of the founders and that certainly played a part....it was important to them as it should be so us.

    Liberty and the pursuit of happiness exactly is what allows people most affected to make up their own minds about what to do. Neither you nor anyone else is affected by that decision.
    It concerns only the parents.
    Taking that freedom away is authoritarian and telling people they cannot do what they want with their own body.
    It is the exact opposite of freedom and the pursuit of happiness



    As far as forcing religious beliefs on others I am somewhat in agreement with you. But in that case is not the opposite true as well? When it comes down to arguments on abortion are not the communists and atheists also forcing their amoral or immoral lifestyle on others by demanding that abortion on demand be legal and that our tax dollars be used to support it when it never was before except for the past 50 years?

    NO THEY ARE NOT FORCING THEIR "AMORAL" BELIEFS ON ANYONE. IT IS THOSE WANTING TO MAKE ABORTION ILLEGAL THAT ARE FORCING THEIR BELIEFS ON PEOPLE.
    People can opt for abortion or refuse to have one. It is their choice. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
    Instead of a minority telling the majority what to do and how to do it, allowing abortion forces nothing and anybody and allows each individual to make up their own mind about the issue.
    More freedom not forced compliance to a minorities religious belief.


    One other thing not related to your post is the hypocrisy of people who make exceptions to allow abortion in the case of rape or incest. If life begins at fertilization and it is so precious, then why "kill a baby" because of who one of it's parents were?
    When people bend their morality to make such exceptions you know their morality is based on nothing but illogical dogma.

    Summary: If you believe abortions are evil, don't have one, but that doesn't give you a ever shrinking minority to make the rules for the majority of people, most of whom have their own religious beliefs.
    I like the way the law and the constitution handles most peoples religious beliefs. Do what you believe is right as long as it doesn't hurt the rest of the people.
    If you hate abortions, offer someone thinking of getting one 10 or 20K to have the baby and then adapt it and pay for it the rest of your life.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish hook View Post
    I think anyone,not just women should have the opportunity to choose what they do in this life.That is one of the precious gifts that heavenly father gave to the human race.Having a choice means we have a responsibility for those choices. All choices carry consequences,either good or bad.One of the possible consequences of fornication is becoming pregnant.When that happens i don't think you have any choices left.You have made a choice and have received the natural consequences of that choice.The only choices left is accept the result or commit murder.I also think that if we don't at least try to stop this practice WE will not be held blameless.
    So if the woman was raped or the victim of incest, should she have the baby, or is that a different situation?
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaMan View Post
    I agree with you 1000%. It definitely takes two to tango.
    Perhaps it's time for men to man up and take a bit of responsibility. And male contraception would be easier too.
    There is a history of condums not being totally reliable. Also a history of women poking holes in condums to trick a man into fathering a child.
    It's one of the complaints of the MGTOW platform.
    When a male contraceptive similar to the pill is widely available I think many men will use it, just as many women use the pill today.

    You do know the many churches say using any contraceptive is a sin, don't you??
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish hook View Post
    I think anyone,not just women should have the opportunity to choose what they do in this life.That is one of the precious gifts that heavenly father gave to the human race.Having a choice means we have a responsibility for those choices. All choices carry consequences,either good or bad.One of the possible consequences of fornication is becoming pregnant.When that happens i don't think you have any choices left.You have made a choice and have received the natural consequences of that choice.The only choices left is accept the result or commit murder.I also think that if we don't at least try to stop this practice WE will not be held blameless.
    You do have choices, it's just that a minority of people want to force their views on the majority.
    Women have been inducing abortions in themselves for thousands of years.
    It was much more dangerous to the life of the woman than modern abortions are today.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  21. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    So if the woman was raped or the victim of incest, should she have the baby, or is that a different situation?
    Two wrongs do not make a right.
    Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. George Orwell

  22. #62
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    [QUOTE=CaryC;7015274]Just a couple of notes to your comments:

    Making it legal but rare: once anything is legalized, it never is rare, it quickly becomes the standard-note marijuana (not to chance the subject just noting) drinking alcohol (not advocating going back to prohibition either) gambling, legal prostitution just to name a few vices that have become legal. Not a vice but once it became legal to do 70 on the interstate, most drove 70.

    And you have a problem with any of that???
    Continue to drive 60 if you want. Continue to NOT use marijuana if you want.
    Don't use prostitutes if you think it immoral. Don't gamble if your religious beliefs say no. At least now you have the freedom to follow your own beliefs without forcing them on others.

    (For the record, I do drive up to the speed limit, I don't use marijuana, I don't use prostitutes but have no problem if others do, and I don't gamble because I think it's stupid. The state lotteries are just a tax on stupid people. Most of all I don't want to force my preferences and beliefs on others and expect them to treat me the same way)



    offering alternatives: Has been done so much that cities have passed ordinances to keep people back who offer it. And is there anyone in the western world that doesn't know you can put your child up for adoption? And Planned Parenthood gives "the pill" away. and many places offer free condoms.

    Offering alternatives is not getting in peoples faces with a sign and telling them they're going to hell. As I said in other places. Offer a woman going in to pay all her expenses and a bonus of 20K if she has the baby and gives it to you for adaption.
    Put your money where you mouth is, instead of threatening people. I can guarantee you many women would respond to respectful counseling and offering to adapt the baby and take care of her expense. The don't respond to in your face threats of violence. Anti abortionists are in many ways like violent leftists.



    Do you best to preach against it: being done here
    Not very effectively. Otherwise most people would not be for legalizing abortion.

    Black women: they have the children to increase the number of children without dad's to increase their income. And all the contraceptives are offered free. Think about it. So they don't offer them for adoption.

    Try offering them 20K in cash and all incidental expenses paid and see what they say.
    They mostly live in the moment and are incapable of considering future planning.
    Seriously, instead of giving them free shit, all women, black, white, red or yellow should not be given a government subsidy for having a baby or babies they cannot afford.
    They make a mistake once they get no benefits if they keep the kid, 5,000 if they give up the kid and undergo surgical sterilization.
    Women have between their legs the means to make society support them for the rest of their lives while they download defective baby after defective baby, only because society is soft and feminine. It is a weakness that will eventually destroy us.

    Aristotle said it best.
    Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny.


    Just saying or rather preaching.
    Go ahead a preach it ! It's a start.
    Last edited by TerryK; 09-17-2018 at 10:00 PM.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TammyinWI View Post
    Two wrongs do not make a right.
    Congrats, you are consistent. Most people who want to make abortion illegal, bend their morality when it comes to this.
    Congrats for being true to your beliefs.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence

  24. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Anrol5 View Post
    So neither lighteecho, Robin Hood, MthGal, Terriannie, or krystan, have discussed the deaths of pregnant women.
    Actually, I did address danger to the mother. But giving birth, like anything else in life, has risks. So chose wisely at the points where your decision does not affect another living being. As a woman that has been celibate for almost 10 years, with 2 exceptions, I can tell you that it can be done. Life and consequences. Sometimes they just suck. Other times they are fatal.
    I'm tired of the attitude that everyone should be protected from their bad decisions and the consequences. Hell, even good decisions occasionally have bad consequences.
    Please, come say Hi! and share your experience/knowledge. I love to learn.

    http://survivingtothrivin.blogspot.com/

  25. #65
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    [QUOTE][What are you going to say when technology advances to point of cloning a human being without needing two people, or even raising an artificially fertilized egg in an artificial womb? The time is coming./QUOTE] TK

    I'd say welcome to 1984, to Animal Farm, to Brave New World, to Margaret Sanger's utopia of Eugenics, welcome to the New World Order where the West finally broke its supposed "shackles" from any vestige of Godliness and thus lost what it means to be human - welcome to soulless humanity and any real reason for hope of truly living, where only the material matters and all else counts as nothing.

    rh

  26. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    There is a history of condums not being totally reliable. Also a history of women poking holes in condums to trick a man into fathering a child.
    It's one of the complaints of the MGTOW platform.
    When a male contraceptive similar to the pill is widely available I think many men will use it, just as many women use the pill today.

    You do know the many churches say using any contraceptive is a sin, don't you??
    I wish they would make a male contraceptive pill available. To this day I do not understand the number of men that just do not grasp the stupidity of not taking precautions to prevent pregnancy. In this day and age, a woman getting pregnant can completely derail a man's plans for his future. Especially if she ends up on the dole and gives them his name. The govt will go after them for child support even if the mom doesn't.
    Please, come say Hi! and share your experience/knowledge. I love to learn.

    http://survivingtothrivin.blogspot.com/

  27. #67
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    "Mildly" mentally retarded...it's possible the grandma was shortchanging the girl's ability, with lots of training and help, to be a mom.
    Why has no one pointed out that it's also possible that the "mildly mentally retarded" pregnant girl might have another "mildly mentally retarded" child, or worse? I know most people on this board, and certainly in this country, think eugenics is a dirty, filthy word, or concept, but I don't. What in hell is wrong with carefully choosing mates for good outcomes in future generations? I get it that Hitler applied the concept atrociously, and that in practice it represents a slippery slope, easily turned into a cliff. Nonetheless, since what children we get (appearances, abilities, intelligence, etc.) is largely a genetic crap shoot, IMO, optimizing the chances for good kids is just sensible. I don't blame the mom for getting an abortion for her daughter at all. Further, her worry about "falling in love" with the baby is completely understandable. How many of you have raised a special needs child? It takes much more parenting with much less results that with a "normal" kid. And often the special needs child that becomes a special needs adult must have the same level of care all of their lives, or more. They are now full sized and can be violent and difficult to manage. And that care represents a huge financial burden to both the family and the state.

    Am I pro-choice? Yes, but with limitations. IMO, abortion is often the least awful of all outcomes, but it has existed in human civilization since we developed agriculture, and maybe before. Nonetheless, if we are going to allow abortion, there should absolutely be consequences. Abortion number two = mandatory implants. Three and they are sterilized at the same time. I abhor women who use abortion as a method of birth control. If they are that irresponsible with their sex lives, and so undisciplined as to be unable to effectively use birth control, they need to not reproduce. Their intelligence and character is not worth having down line generations. So, if we must have abortions, let them be regulated like the driver's licenses. Repeat DUII people are not supposed to drive at all. Also, I think late-term abortions are an abomination unless delivery will cost the mother her life.

    Here I'm going to get blasted... too bad. IMO, if the sincerely religious people want there to be no abortions they need to do several things. Mote and beam apply here.
    1) Make total pregnancy care available to every unmarried mother in their church, including providing counseling aimed at adoption if the mother is going to be unable to provide and care for the child.
    2) Quit expecting the church or the Bible to inculcate morals or sense into young people. It's families, discussions, etc. that do that. Sure, use the Bible as a base for authority, but at no time give the sense to the kids that "we don't talk about that" exists for any subject. If you cannot rationally discuss with your kids the reasons for responsible sexual behavior, they are going to find out the hard way. That might also mean skipping some church meetings in favor of family time at home. I used to be a church-goer. The kids that had the biggest problems were the ones whose entire families spent three nights a week at church but not together.
    3) Immediately cease the campaign to have government do what churches are supposed to do via outlawing abortions, and take care of the brethren, minister (take care of) the widows and orphans, etc. themselves. A great deal fewer foreign missions with more local ministries would be a good start.

    If the sincerely religious are totally opposed to abortion, they need to start at home, raise their kids right, raise enough kids, and not worry about the "heathens" who get abortions. Frankly, the biggest detriment to the anti-abortion rhetoric in this country has been the bombing and harassing of abortion clinics, doctors, etc. That behavior seems very similar to me to how the nutcases in the middle east try to solve problems.

  28. #68
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    I get it that Hitler applied the concept atrociously, and that in practice it represents a slippery slope, easily turned into a cliff.
    Well, Hitler had to start somewhere. Selection is that slope before it comes to culling. (Starting with the invisible aborted babies, seen only in the abortionist's bucket.)

    Your points are oh so practical, how can one deny the problems unwanted babies and special needs children cause? I’m a practical person and I totally AGREE! It IS unpractical and to “cure” the problem before it starts makes perfect “sense.”

    BUT

    Jesus taught us a different way. Love for our fellow man, caring, unselfishness and sacrifice are not practical but when practiced, makes for perfect peace and yes, happiness!

    Ask any true mother of a special needs, downs syndrome child for example. Knowing full well the problems coming down the road, they have also acquired enough strength and character to overfill a basket!! These qualities would NEVER have existed if not challenged and practical culling robs humanity of just that!

    If the sincerely religious are totally opposed to abortion, they need to start at home, raise their kids right, raise enough kids, and not worry about the "heathens" who get abortions.
    Unfortunately, you’re right but keep in mind, Christians are not perfect. The problem with some is that they fell into the “practical” trap because frankly, God has been vilified and taken out of the majority of public discourse, thus making it harder to combat against the godless flow.

    Bottom line, it is hard to fight against common sense to kill an unwanted baby or any unwanted human life!!

    (Except, if one really appreciates the MIRACLE of LIFE and has the common “spiritual” sense to back away from the current, godless, human solution.)

  29. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    I am for mandatory sterilization of any woman who is on welfare because she can't take care of a baby she had. I am also for taking the baby she had away from her because she obviously can't raise it on her own. Maybe one of the anti abortion people here could adapt it and pay for it.
    And pray tell who gets to make that decision? The State? So you are advocating something that was done against black men? And China?

  30. #70
    [QUOTE=TerryK;7015813]
    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    Just a couple of notes to your comments:

    Making it legal but rare: once anything is legalized, it never is rare, it quickly becomes the standard-note marijuana (not to chance the subject just noting) drinking alcohol (not advocating going back to prohibition either) gambling, legal prostitution just to name a few vices that have become legal. Not a vice but once it became legal to do 70 on the interstate, most drove 70.

    And you have a problem with any of that???
    Continue to drive 60 if you want. Continue to NOT use marijuana if you want.
    Don't use prostitutes if you think it immoral. Don't gamble if your religious beliefs say no. At least now you have the freedom to follow your own beliefs without forcing them on others.

    (For the record, I do drive up to the speed limit, I don't use marijuana, I don't use prostitutes but have no problem if others do, and I don't gamble because I think it's stupid. The state lotteries are just a tax on stupid people. Most of all I don't want to force my preferences and beliefs on others and expect them to treat me the same way)



    offering alternatives: Has been done so much that cities have passed ordinances to keep people back who offer it. And is there anyone in the western world that doesn't know you can put your child up for adoption? And Planned Parenthood gives "the pill" away. and many places offer free condoms.

    Offering alternatives is not getting in peoples faces with a sign and telling them they're going to hell. As I said in other places. Offer a woman going in to pay all her expenses and a bonus of 20K if she has the baby and gives it to you for adaption.
    Put your money where you mouth is, instead of threatening people. I can guarantee you many women would respond to respectful counseling and offering to adapt the baby and take care of her expense. The don't respond to in your face threats of violence. Anti abortionists are in many ways like violent leftists.



    Do you best to preach against it: being done here
    Not very effectively. Otherwise most people would not be for legalizing abortion.

    Black women: they have the children to increase the number of children without dad's to increase their income. And all the contraceptives are offered free. Think about it. So they don't offer them for adoption.

    Try offering them 20K in cash and all incidental expenses paid and see what they say.
    They mostly live in the moment and are incapable of considering future planning.
    Seriously, instead of giving them free shit, all women, black, white, red or yellow should not be given a government subsidy for having a baby or babies they cannot afford.
    They make a mistake once they get no benefits if they keep the kid, 5,000 if they give up the kid and undergo surgical sterilization.
    Women have between their legs the means to make society support them for the rest of their lives while they download defective baby after defective baby, only because society is soft and feminine. It is a weakness that will eventually destroy us.

    Aristotle said it best.
    Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny.


    Just saying or rather preaching.
    Go ahead a preach it ! It's a start.
    In your remark about driving 60 is comparable to those you don't believe in, nor have abortions. Your comment was "legal and rare" when the truth is not only does it not work that way, but is, and has been shown, it doesn't work that way, in any society, about anything. A hole in your position. BTW abortions today are much more done then when it was back alley.

    Where as your comment may be true concerning protestors, the fact, NOTE FACT remains, that contraceptives of any type are readily available, of any type, and in most cases are free. And these facts are known, and not a hidden mystery. A hole in your position.

    The effectiveness of preaching isn't on the preacher. That's a modern day concept of filling pews. All a preacher is supposed to do is get the word out, what people do with that is not his responsibility, for better or worse. Note Noah, and the prophets of old. Another hole in your argument.

    Go ahead and preach it (it should be noted that I am not a "preacher" in the conventional sense) is the only thing one can do, the responsibility to hear is on you.

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaMan View Post
    I tend to be an old fashioned stick in the mud when it comes to the pro choice/pro life debate.

    Plain and simple, abortion is murder. The woman could have used contraception, or said no. Lack of responsibility for these things prior to the sex act ends up with an unwanted child. No, it's not just a grouping of cells. It's not an inanimate group of cells-it is a human from conception. And the womans' "logical" choice is to get rid of it; to kill it? If that is the principle behind pro choice; can't we just extrapolate that into anyone can kill anyone else at any time for any reason? That's what it sounds like.

    It's murder, it's wrong. Plain and simple.
    Agreed..murder for convenience. I often wonder how these pro abortion (murder) "feminists" would have felt if THEIR mothers aborted them???

  32. #72
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    My computer died yesterday. Lots and lots of replies since I last posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terriannie View Post
    I guess you didn't see my pictures of legalized abortions gone bad. Punch in "abortion clinic ambulances" in an image search. You will see a LOT more. This proves that women HAVE died, been harmed, or become sterile, after LEGAL abortions!

    So, your lengthy and oft-repeated reasonings, including "slavery" now? The fact is, a pregnant woman's body has another HUMAN inside for 9 months. 9 months is hardly, "slavery."

    But guess what? She WILL get her body back and if she puts the baby up for adoption, her LIFE back as well. Of course, that means the baby has life too and whether she wants the child or not, doesn't change that 9 month fact and it has been that fact for every woman born since Eve. That's what's called, "That's the way it is."

    How can you explain the erosion of the Hippocratic Oath a Dr. takes to protect and try to save BOTH mother and child? Before Roe/Wade, it didn't matter if a baby was wanted or not. They recognized the baby as HUMAN and it was always understood that in the case of a mother in danger of dying before a baby is born, they would try their hardest to keep the baby in utero as long as possible before the mother's danger is imminent, even to the point of having the NICU unit at the ready before inducing labor. In the case of early danger, they would remove the baby mostly because both would die anyway. I'm talking about America here, NOT Ireland. (Where they indeed, sadly, dropped the ball.)

    Now, it's ok for a baby to be killed and removed for 100 different reasons, mostly NOT because of rare, life or death! Drs. going against that Hippocratic "now, fuzzy" Oath are flat out, hypocrites!!!
    You talk about the dreadful way that women die in badly run abortion clinics, but you do not talk about the terrible, terrible things that happen to pregnant women. You act like nothing bad happens to pregnant women, and you act like every single pregnant woman blooms in pregnancy. Utter rubbish. As I say anti abortionists live in a fantasy world, where their solution produces a perfect outcome *EVERY* time. And they refuse to acknowledge that it doesn't. And they refuse to talk about how their views damage the lives or even kill infertile women like mine, how our children's lives are damaged, or how other children suffer, or how they hurt babies in womb, or even men. For those who oppose abortion, a total ban on abortions produces wonderful outcomes *all* the time.

    The problem with abortion or pregnancy is we do not know who will sail through an abortion / pregnancy; who will who will suffer, but recover in time; who will become so severely disabled and never work again; and who will die. I think the woman should chose which option she takes. There is not a perfect option. *EVERY* single choice has risks. Just like life.

    I also do like the way you say it is only for 9 months, and then everything can go back to the way it was. Bullsh*t.

    I assume, Terriannie, you support mandatory vaccination, as it would save the lives of the immno compromised. Innocents would be saved. After all you only have to give up a few minutes of your life to save others.

    I am in favour of a grown adult choosing whether to have a vaccination or not. Why? I know that vaccinations can have devastating effects for some, and the effects can last a life time. We are not yet able to predict, who will sail through having a vaccination, who will get slightly sick and recover, who will become so severely disabled and never work again, and who will die. When we can do all these things, then maybe I might support mandatory vaccination. I am unlikely to, as I think each person should have control of their own body.

    I am also in favour of a woman choosing whether to carry a baby to term or not, because we do not know who will sail through pregnancy; who will suffer, but recover in time, who will become so severely disabled and never work again, and who will die. But as I have said you refuse to acknowledge that anything bad happens to pregnant women.


    Your quote

    Quote Originally Posted by Terriannie View Post

    she WILL get her body back
    is not true for some women. That kind of thinking cost the Irish women her life.

    Yes abortion is bl**dy f*ck*ing awful, but the consequences of bans on abortion are bl**dy f*ck*ing. There is no good solution.

    You are absolutely certain that banning abortion is a good thing, so you must be absolutely certain that the death of a beautiful, intelligent young wife , was a good thing. Similarly you must know why women like me, infertile women who would never have an abortion, must be denied safe effective medical treatment, and some die. You must know why that is a good thing. So please explain it to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by TerryK View Post
    Sorry BeWell but when entitlement payments are 50% of our budget, it is about money.

    The other strange thing is that the people against abortion are like 40%.
    If you want to prevent a woman from having an abortion, maybe you should assume societies cost of supporting that baby for life. Offer her some money and adapt the kid and pay for it the rest of your life. Stop preaching your morality for others and live it yourself. Yes you should offer to adapt someone's baby for them if they are considering abortion if it really means that much to you and if you think your morality should override theirs.


    Otherwise quite imposing your morality on others.
    If you had to pay for the moral choices you want to make for others out of your own pocket, your morality would change.


    Oh and someone else was quoting about how all life is sacred, yet over 50% of fertilized eggs never implant or reach birth. They abort naturally. Most of the time without the woman every realizing she was pregnant. God must really suck to allow more potential humans than not to die before they are ever born.
    OR could it be that a fertilized egg is just tissue before it has developed it's first neuron or it's cells have differentiated into organs.

    What are you going to say when technology advances to point of cloning a human being without needing two people, or even raising an artificially fertilized egg in an artificial womb? The time is coming.

    In the bible the penalty for causing a woman to miscarriage is a fine.
    However the penalty for killing the woman or a man is death.
    Doesn't that tell you where God stands on embryos?

    Seriously, my fundamental beef about anti abortion people is that you want to force your moral decision on others but assume no responsibility for the consequences.
    You should pay up or shut up. Most of the people in this country are for allowing each woman to make her own decision.
    Totally agree with you, TerryK

    It costs a lot of money to have a baby, particularly, if the baby is born prematurely. The cost means many do not seek the medical care they need, and for a developed nation, the US has truly awful maternal death rates. What are the anti abortion campaigners doing about providing free antenatal care and delivery costs? And what are they doing about proving free care for premature babies?

    They are also not campaigning for free child care as in the kind you find in some places in Belgium. Parents need access to 24 hour child care. They need to have their sick child looked after, while they work. They need to have subsidised / free medical care. And so on and so on. Perhaps also there should be child allowances, and long term payments to families, when the mother dies in birth, probably lots of other things.

    If they did that many more women would chose to keep their baby. But do they? Of course not.

    Anrol

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Suspecting my comment would hijack the Chelsea Clinton thread, I thought I'd make a new thread.

    I wish we'd separate the attitude about abortion (pro or con) from the issue of choice. I happen to be very pro choice, believing that we all have liberty (and responsibility) I also believe that a woman has the liberty to make choices about her own body. But I happen to also believe that abortion is the wrong choice. But I don't think that gives me the right to make that choice for the mother.

    I'm bothered by society/government making choices for us, whether it is where we live, what we eat, what we worship, etc. Rather to teach that we have choice, and along with it the responsibility for the choices we make.

    By lumping those issues together, we've allowed the pro-abortion advocates to obscure the fact that the mother is killing their kid behind the façade of exercising a basic liberty.

    By using our political clout to force a particular morality (anti abortion) onto society, we justify the efforts of others to generate political clout to force their morality onto us. It works both ways.

    Frankly, I think the conservatives are on the wrong side of this issue. The problem is to embrace choice without seeming to embrace pro-abortion.
    Don't we as a civil society force the morality of "thou shall not murder" on everyone. Why is it that it is only fascism when it is done to a person in the womb.

  34. #74
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    Anrol, in your response to my fact that after 9 months a woman gets her life back you responded with:

    That kind of thinking cost the Irish women her life.
    Well obviously you didn’t read my comment on the Iris woman.

    Post #42
    How can you explain the erosion of the Hippocratic Oath a Dr. takes to protect and try to save BOTH mother and child? Before Roe/Wade, it didn't matter if a baby was wanted or not. They recognized the baby as HUMAN and it was always understood that in the case of a mother in danger of dying before a baby is born, they would try their hardest to keep the baby in utero as long as possible before the mother's danger is imminent, even to the point of having the NICU unit at the ready before inducing labor. In the case of early danger, they would remove the baby mostly because both would die anyway. I'm talking about America here, NOT Ireland. (Where they indeed, sadly, dropped the ball.)
    That being said, I would have included that little blurb to engage in more dialog, but when you got to talking about VACCINATIONS, blah, blah, blah, I completely dismissed your post as a bunch of diatribes and won’t debate this with you any further.

    However, I do have one suggestion after this caught my eye.

    I am also in favour of a woman choosing whether to carry a baby to term or not
    Whenever you put your virulent stand to insist it’s A-ok to “choose” whether to carry a baby to term or not, subliminally you did say, “BABY.” You probably should change that to “THING.”

    No, it won’t change the fact that that a pregnant woman is carrying a "BABY," but it might make you feel better.

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