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OP-ED "No one CARES if you go home at the end of your shift"
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    I can see both sides of it and so can MOST people here if they will look at it UNEMOTIONALLY. just to lay it out there -

    ALL COPS should follow ALL LAWS ALL THE TIME- and when they don't they should be SEVERELY PUNISHED

    EVERYBODY should be able to recognize the anti cop agenda of MSM and it should be stopped IMMEDIATELY

    EVERYBODY should recognize that SOFT body armor DOESN'T stop high velocity rifle rounds and these guys get ambushed with increasing frequency - even while sitting in their cars. so unless these guys are supposed to walk around in steel and ceramic plates, that body armor argument in the OP is BULLSHIT

    ALL of us should be able to recognize that there ARE BAD COPS and they ARE DANGEROUS to ALL OF US . . . but there are also those here who get "upset" when somebody uses the word NIGGER even when it's READILY APPARENT that term is not only QUITE ACCURATE but RIGHTEOUSLY DESERVED. in point of fact NIGGERS (and some "others") ARE OPENLY HUNTING COPS in many areas and lately there doesn't seem to be any bag limit or closed season . . . hell in Dallas they can't even find people TO BE cops.

    all that to say I wouldn't have that job - not for all the tea in China - and I doubt that most here would want it either. in short:

    I DON'T DISMISS BAD COPS ANY MORE THAN I DISMISS ANY OTHER BAD ACTOR - BE THAT POLITICIAN JUDGE LAWYER DOCTOR

    we need to realize that the OP is written from the perspective a HIGHLY TRAINED EXCEPTIONALLY WELL PREPARED INDIVIDUAL - he/she/they/it quite probably represent less than .5% of the populace IF THAT MANY. we need to get back to logic, common sense, respect and personal responsibility in this country - and we need to quit blaming everyone else for the single biggest short coming of POP USA -

    ACCEPTING THE STATUS QUO

    OK then - rant off - and please - feel free to send me a bill for the psyche consult

    I disagree

    Cops should control and make their areas safe for the good citizens

    Criminals don't follow any of the laws and cops should be given some leniency instead of more restraints

    The reason crime is bad is because lawyers are on retainers and courts allow plea bargains
    Arrest them charge them and incarcerate them is the solution to crime
    Remove them from society

    If they can't be civil instead of criminal in society then cast them into jails or prison farms

    Quit blaming the good guys


    My ancient aunt said it would take a year in the 1950s to see so much crime as we see daily
    And a month in the 1960s
    And today we can't even keep up in a single news cycle


    All we have now is lawyers getting rich and cops getting shot and crimenals getting more bold and more deadly

  2. #42
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    As usual, too many condemning and not offering any solutions other than "the bad ones need to be weeded out". What the hell, people??? Everyone deserves to come home at the end of a shift. An astronaut goes up into space knowing full well that there is a certain probability that they won't make it back to terra firma. I don't know about you but I want to see them come back to earth and hug their loved ones. Same goes for our military and first responders.

    The reasons for our present situation are many. The mindset of the criminal element has changed. They are much more vicious and more well equipped than just 20 years ago. Where once body armor was optional for LE, it is now required. 20 years ago, a cop didn't approach a vehicle with their hand on their sidearm. Now days, that SOP because you never know if that guy behind the wheel already has his hands on his ready to blow you away. And even if a criminal is apprehended and taken to face justice, you have bleeding heart liberal judges that administer a slap on the wrist and an admonishment to not do that again. Yeah, right! They don't even get a freakin' time out!!! Bring back the death penalty. The con gets three appeals within a two year period. When that's exhausted, time to meet your maker.

    Are there bad cops? Yeah, just like there are in every single profession from roofer to lawyer. The good ones get tired of the political BS they have to deal with and say "screw it" and walk away. When people like the mayor and community refuse to back you up and hamstring your actions to the point of you being ineffectual, why take the risk? The ranks still have to be filled, so the bar is lowered. This is why places like Ferguson, Baltimore and Chicago have the law enforcement they have. There are quite a few open spots on their force and the black community is demanding that those spots go to BLACK candidates. Problem is that there are very few black applicants that can claim the minimum education requirement AND a clean record. So the solution is what?

    Law enforcement budgets are cut because the money has to be funneled to some mandatory social program. Our county's sheriff's office has cut personnel to the bone. There are times two deputies are on duty and the response time may be 30 minutes because they are on the opposite side of the county. But hey, third graders know how to grow a garden! Never mind that most of these kids are farm kids and probably understand growing better than most city dwellers!

    Maybe we should just do away with all law enforcement because of the bad ones? I don't know about you keyboard commandos but I don't want that. I THINK I know what to do to protect myself but thanks be to God, it's never been tested other than in my mind. I am positively sure my 84 year old mother has no clue, so I rest better knowing that if she (or I) manages to be able to call out for help in time, there is someone that is willing to come to her aid. What about your mom? Wife? Daughter? I thank Heaven that there IS someone(s) out there that is (are) willing to go up against the worst of the worst, the most depraved of the depraved. I know I probably wouldn't fare very well on my own. You probably wouldn't either. Like I've said before and it's my personal opinion, you have to be some kind of special crazy to be a first responder...be it LE, fire or emt. And I thank you for doing it.
    Needs more cowbell.
    "The Constitution only gives people the right to persue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." --Benjamin Franklin
    Proud member of fly-over country

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    As usual, too many condemning and not offering any solutions other than "the bad ones need to be weeded out". What the hell, people??? Everyone deserves to come home at the end of a shift. An astronaut goes up into space knowing full well that there is a certain probability that they won't make it back to terra firma. I don't know about you but I want to see them come back to earth and hug their loved ones. Same goes for our military and first responders.

    The reasons for our present situation are many. The mindset of the criminal element has changed. They are much more vicious and more well equipped than just 20 years ago. Where once body armor was optional for LE, it is now required. 20 years ago, a cop didn't approach a vehicle with their hand on their sidearm. Now days, that SOP because you never know if that guy behind the wheel already has his hands on his ready to blow you away. And even if a criminal is apprehended and taken to face justice, you have bleeding heart liberal judges that administer a slap on the wrist and an admonishment to not do that again. Yeah, right! They don't even get a freakin' time out!!! Bring back the death penalty. The con gets three appeals within a two year period. When that's exhausted, time to meet your maker.

    Are there bad cops? Yeah, just like there are in every single profession from roofer to lawyer. The good ones get tired of the political BS they have to deal with and say "screw it" and walk away. When people like the mayor and community refuse to back you up and hamstring your actions to the point of you being ineffectual, why take the risk? The ranks still have to be filled, so the bar is lowered. This is why places like Ferguson, Baltimore and Chicago have the law enforcement they have. There are quite a few open spots on their force and the black community is demanding that those spots go to BLACK candidates. Problem is that there are very few black applicants that can claim the minimum education requirement AND a clean record. So the solution is what?

    Law enforcement budgets are cut because the money has to be funneled to some mandatory social program. Our county's sheriff's office has cut personnel to the bone. There are times two deputies are on duty and the response time may be 30 minutes because they are on the opposite side of the county. But hey, third graders know how to grow a garden! Never mind that most of these kids are farm kids and probably understand growing better than most city dwellers!

    Maybe we should just do away with all law enforcement because of the bad ones? I don't know about you keyboard commandos but I don't want that. I THINK I know what to do to protect myself but thanks be to God, it's never been tested other than in my mind. I am positively sure my 84 year old mother has no clue, so I rest better knowing that if she (or I) manages to be able to call out for help in time, there is someone that is willing to come to her aid. What about your mom? Wife? Daughter? I thank Heaven that there IS someone(s) out there that is (are) willing to go up against the worst of the worst, the most depraved of the depraved. I know I probably wouldn't fare very well on my own. You probably wouldn't either. Like I've said before and it's my personal opinion, you have to be some kind of special crazy to be a first responder...be it LE, fire or emt. And I thank you for doing it.
    VERY well put Josie
    thanks for laying it out so clearly
    RM
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thinwater View Post
    I see the usual cop haters are at it again.
    No sypmathy from me until LEOs eradicate or otherwise render harmless their own criminals.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    As usual, too many condemning and not offering any solutions other than "the bad ones need to be weeded out". What the hell, people??? Everyone deserves to come home at the end of a shift. An astronaut goes up into space knowing full well that there is a certain probability that they won't make it back to terra firma. I don't know about you but I want to see them come back to earth and hug their loved ones. Same goes for our military and first responders.

    The reasons for our present situation are many. The mindset of the criminal element has changed. They are much more vicious and more well equipped than just 20 years ago. Where once body armor was optional for LE, it is now required. 20 years ago, a cop didn't approach a vehicle with their hand on their sidearm. Now days, that SOP because you never know if that guy behind the wheel already has his hands on his ready to blow you away. And even if a criminal is apprehended and taken to face justice, you have bleeding heart liberal judges that administer a slap on the wrist and an admonishment to not do that again. Yeah, right! They don't even get a freakin' time out!!! Bring back the death penalty. The con gets three appeals within a two year period. When that's exhausted, time to meet your maker.

    Are there bad cops? Yeah, just like there are in every single profession from roofer to lawyer. The good ones get tired of the political BS they have to deal with and say "screw it" and walk away. When people like the mayor and community refuse to back you up and hamstring your actions to the point of you being ineffectual, why take the risk? The ranks still have to be filled, so the bar is lowered. This is why places like Ferguson, Baltimore and Chicago have the law enforcement they have. There are quite a few open spots on their force and the black community is demanding that those spots go to BLACK candidates. Problem is that there are very few black applicants that can claim the minimum education requirement AND a clean record. So the solution is what?

    Law enforcement budgets are cut because the money has to be funneled to some mandatory social program. Our county's sheriff's office has cut personnel to the bone. There are times two deputies are on duty and the response time may be 30 minutes because they are on the opposite side of the county. But hey, third graders know how to grow a garden! Never mind that most of these kids are farm kids and probably understand growing better than most city dwellers!

    Maybe we should just do away with all law enforcement because of the bad ones? I don't know about you keyboard commandos but I don't want that. I THINK I know what to do to protect myself but thanks be to God, it's never been tested other than in my mind. I am positively sure my 84 year old mother has no clue, so I rest better knowing that if she (or I) manages to be able to call out for help in time, there is someone that is willing to come to her aid. What about your mom? Wife? Daughter? I thank Heaven that there IS someone(s) out there that is (are) willing to go up against the worst of the worst, the most depraved of the depraved. I know I probably wouldn't fare very well on my own. You probably wouldn't either. Like I've said before and it's my personal opinion, you have to be some kind of special crazy to be a first responder...be it LE, fire or emt. And I thank you for doing it.
    Well said, Josie.

    Further to the bolded, I recently saw where a PD in Florida was offering under $15/hr to start for new (untrained) recruits. I made more than that as a 16 year old Lifeguard 24 years ago. The budget cuts also affect background checks, whether or not lie detector tests are administered, length and type of training, etc... There is an element of you get what you pay for in today’s law enforcement. It is encumbent upon the federal, state & local governments to ensure that the best hiring and training processes are in place. Unfortunately this is simply not a priority in most areas of the country.

  6. #46
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    You want to get rid of bad cops
    Cops want to get rid of bad cops
    Police chiefs want to get rid of bad cops

    You wann know how to do this

    GET THE UNIONS OUT OF THE POLICE STATIONS
    CHange the state laws that allow UNIONS to form in police agencies
    Get rid of arbitration decisions that bind the hands of cities to get rid of bad cops

    I know what I am talking about

    Get the unions out of the picture

  7. #47
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    As usual, too many condemning and not offering any solutions other than "the bad ones need to be weeded out". What the hell, people??? Everyone deserves to come home at the end of a shift. An astronaut goes up into space knowing full well that there is a certain probability that they won't make it back to terra firma. I don't know about you but I want to see them come back to earth and hug their loved ones. Same goes for our military and first responders.

    Deserves? Really?

    Don't you think the innocents among the public at large DESERVE to be safe at the end of those people's shifts too? But it does not work that way in the real world that is not all pink and fuzzy and fairy tale happy endings. I've had three people die in my arms when I was running rescue in spite of everything we could do to keep them alive- don't I deserve not to have to carry around those memories? And so on and so on.

    Be careful how you say DESERVE.
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33dInd View Post
    You want to get rid of bad cops
    Cops want to get rid of bad cops
    Police chiefs want to get rid of bad cops

    You wann know how to do this

    GET THE UNIONS OUT OF THE POLICE STATIONS
    CHange the state laws that allow UNIONS to form in police agencies
    Get rid of arbitration decisions that bind the hands of cities to get rid of bad cops

    I know what I am talking about

    Get the unions out of the picture
    This too.

  9. #49
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    you have to be some kind of special crazy to be a first responder...be it LE, fire or emt

    I did all three for several years in the 1970s as a volunteer in the small town where I lived at the time. I rode reserve with the PD, was a volunteer fireman and ran rescue as well. Paid for my own EMS training and bought my own supplies too.

    Would I do it now? If I still could, yes. When I took the CNA class last year (for the education, not to get a job) someone asked my DW if she was worried about me being the only man in a class full of sweet young 20somethings. She said no, what bothered her was us getting offered free EMS training up through Paramedic if we'd join the county rescue squad. But this old firehorse knows better - I'd only be part of the problem. Best I stay home, listen to the scanner and write donation checks.
    The wonder of our time isn’t how angry we are at politics and politicians; it’s how little we’ve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieseltrooper View Post
    No sypmathy from me until LEOs eradicate or otherwise render harmless their own criminals.
    This. Shooting a guy on a floor who is trying to comply, or shooting a curious citizen is bullshit. I don't want to hear any justification that may be presented. Those cops were cops who should never wear a badge and who should be jailed for manslaughter.

    If they can't handle their jobs, McDonalds is hiring.

    Cops that don't police their own are called complicit.

    Before anyone flaps their jaws, I'm not anti-cop. I'm pro-cop. I'm anti-BAD cop.
    No good deed ever goes unpunished.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    I'm a former Army Military Police Lieutenant. And the OP is right. This garbage of "going home safe" is resulting in innocent citizens, the ones to be protected and the ones paying the bill, getting shot way too much.
    What exactly is "way too much?" Is this like the gun grabbers who claim, "If it saves just one it is worth it?" What is the actual percentage of people really getting shot vs those who didn't but might have been justified vs all the cases where cops have people at gun point and don't fire?

    Going home safe has nothing to do with these shooting. I know many will disagree, because they want to actually think that these officers who fire are actually thinking, "I need to get home" before pulling the trigger. These shootings are nothing more than human survival instinct. Going home safe is much larger than just incidents involving firearms. It is making sure some idiot isn't looking down texting while you're trying to get out into a lane of traffic to stop it so a crowd can safely cross the street. It is so that the adrenaline junkies that take the job who just love driving lights and sirens use their brain on that back, empty country road so they won't feel they need to drive 80MPH to a serious injury crash.

    These shootings are nothing more than human nature. Fear is part of it, but it really isn't some overwhelming, all encompassing philosophy with law enforcement. There are two issues: One, we have an out-of-control crime rate. Pro-active policing just tries to keep the lid on it. People are allowed to not just be criminals, but also do the dumbest things and we pass out repeated slaps on the wrist, so most people don't learn their lesson. Second, the job itself draws many, many types of personalities that want to control, get into other people's business, etc.. The worst types are those who want to control others, want to constantly inject themselves into what others are doing if they are doing no wrong (ie: Stop and frisk, consensual stops, etc.), and are looking to physically engage people. Thankfully most of these people wash out, usually because they do something stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    Respect for authority was never, ever taught.
    The flip side is that for many decades, there wasn't much respect for rights being taught either. In fact, some cities like NYC pretty much laughed at respect for individual rights with their stop and frisk policy. You kinda alluded to the issue here: Society has changed, for the worse. How many stories do we get on TB where someone does something very savage, only to read that they have had five to twenty-five arrests, not just for minor issues, but serious crimes. Why are these dangerous people out in the streets? The simple fact is that we can't house them all. We have a failed criminal justice system. In the early 60s line of duty deaths were 130ish, in 1974 they rose to 280. They trended down to about 150-175 for many years. Now they are back down to 120. Part of that downward trend is technology and smarts. For starters, we have bullet resistant vest and shields. Vehicles are now having ballistic panels installed inside the doors. Plus, most departments finally cracked the whip and made their cops use their seat belts. Airbags have also played a role. The downside though was this training that everyone is, or can be, a threat. So you have very young people, minimal life skills, and they are programmed to see everything they do as having some level of danger. Some can logically process this, others can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    So why would anyone go into law enforcement? I dunno! Personally, I think you have to be some kind of crazy and maybe that's the problem.
    I agree. Today I tell as many young people I can to really reconsider their path into LE. The thing with LE is that there are many who are drawn to the security of the job, the idea of a pension of some kind, and just the fact it is a job that isn't the same thing over and over again. For me, I was drawn to the constant change, but then I realized that there really isn't no change. It basically is different day-to-day, but over time, it usually becomes the same thing. A certain part of the population can't act like grownups, so you constantly have to deal with them (the players may change over time, but it is really the same stuff), crashes will always happen, serious incidents will pop off ever so often, etc..

    The pension aspect is now fully under attack, which will make it harder to attract and retain good people. Some of the states really screwed it for the vast majority. Pensions of $100K after twenty years for life are ridiculous. At the same time, thirty years in the job is almost too much for many people if you ask me.

    LE is trying to change now. Some academies have started teaching a slow down mentality. As in take your time, wait for back-up, don't be a hero. Along those same lines, there is a push to possibly change LE from a pro-active gov agency to that of the fire service. Basically there would be limited pro-active policing in terms of stop and frisk or consensual stops (ie: Get into everyone's business even though they are doing nothing wrong that you can see). Basically most police would be just responding to incidents, which right now is a majority of the work, but many young officers and many admin types and gov leaders want that 'get into everyone's business' until that one incident blows up and becomes an issue.

    Right now, LE isn't the field to go into unless one is going federal. For starters, many still have pensions, but those could go away at any time. Income is hit or miss depending on the area one works. Part of the higher incomes we are seeing I think are due to the fact they want more logical folks taking the job, and not the "I'm on a mission/I am the law/I'm the boss" type personalities, if that makes sense. Still, uniform street LE in most cases mean you have to give at least twenty years to get the pension, so it will be hard to relocate if you want to in the future. The pension usually doesn't kick in till one is in their 50s, so even after twenty years there is nothing there if one is in their 40s, and then you have pretty much zero skills for any halfway decent paying job.

    Now we add into everything else like the issues discussed in this thread, the protests across the country, the political aspect of the job....municipal, uniform law enforcement isn't worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMan View Post
    And here's a question. They can make bullet proof shields. Why don't cops use them?
    It is going in that direction. To answer your question: #1: Money. #2: Training would start to be even more complicated. #3: So many cops are out-of-shape (they are just a subset of an out-of-shape population) I wonder how many could even carry them for any extended length of time.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozdoats View Post
    As usual, too many condemning and not offering any solutions other than "the bad ones need to be weeded out". What the hell, people??? Everyone deserves to come home at the end of a shift. An astronaut goes up into space knowing full well that there is a certain probability that they won't make it back to terra firma. I don't know about you but I want to see them come back to earth and hug their loved ones. Same goes for our military and first responders.

    Deserves? Really?

    Don't you think the innocents among the public at large DESERVE to be safe at the end of those people's shifts too? But it does not work that way in the real world that is not all pink and fuzzy and fairy tale happy endings. I've had three people die in my arms when I was running rescue in spite of everything we could do to keep them alive- don't I deserve not to have to carry around those memories? And so on and so on.

    Be careful how you say DESERVE.
    Thank you for your service, Doz. I always suspected you were some kind of crazy!

    You do get the law you deserve. When you vote people into power that insist that teaching farm kids how to plant and maintain a garden rather than provide the needed funds to maintain a fully manned sheriff's force, you get two deputies patrolling a 480 square county. And I suspect that the only reason there are two is so there is backup if the need arises.

    When you elect a mayor that instructs the police force to sit back and let the people express their anger, you get a Baltimore. When you elect Rahm Emanuel as a mayor and he doesn't back up HIS police force, you get a war zone otherwise known as the south side of Chicago with the UN threatening to come in and restore order. Give the people what they want. When you continually make cuts and lower requirements in an attempt to fill the open positions that good cops have vacated because of the political BS, you will attract the low hanging fruit. You can see the same thing in our military right now.

    Yes, everyone deserves to come home from their shift, just as you and I as regular people deserve and expect to come back from our trip to CVS to pick up a prescription. But to condemn an entire profession because of the actions of the low hanging fruit is wrong. Every cop I know gets upset when one of theirs goes off and does something beyond stupid and careless. It takes a certain emotional mindset to be a cop (fire fighter, emt, dispatcher). I know for a fact that I don't have that mindset. ( I'd be tazing people for bad attitudes.) Nor could I intentionally place myself in a dangerous situation. Zackari Parrish did that and he didn't get to come home to his wife and two small children after his shift.

    Most of us have no clue how evil and depraved members of our species can be. We are protected from that by that thin blue line. Take away that line, and you have Baltimore and Chicago's south side on steroids. YOU might be able to take care of yours but I am pretty sure that my 75 year old neighbor lady and her 104 year old mother couldn't. I know that there are more out there that cannot protect themselves and NEED a cop.

    I could see doing away with the union. My personal opinion is that unions have outlived their usefulness and are in fact hurting the economy at present. The union's job is to protect it's members, even when these members deserve to prosecuted and shouldn't even be on duty. If you get a cop to open up, he can tell you the names and badge numbers of members of the force that shouldn't be there and will be a problem in the future if left. A few of the ones I know have filed complaints to their superiors but because of the union, there is nothing that their commander can do other than restrict the individual to desk for a period of time. It's not so much the cops covering for the bad ones, it's the union protecting their members.
    Needs more cowbell.
    "The Constitution only gives people the right to persue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." --Benjamin Franklin
    Proud member of fly-over country

  13. #53
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    I've seen this bullshit floating around the net for the last week or so been trying to put my thoughts together on it. I've got real world stuff to do right now but I think tonight here is where I 'll post my response first because the hate doesn't drive most people here and I know I'll get honest feed back. Y'all stay tuned hopefully I'll make some sense and learning will occur for me and some of y'all.
    Last edited by Thomas Paine; 01-04-2018 at 01:56 PM.
    All love is unrequited-Cmdr. Susan Ivanova //Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. - Capt. Mal remember boys and girls ATFTRAF I used to run with giants, now I wait to be zombie road kill.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by lurklady View Post
    So today is not a good day for me to read this crap. Last night I was at a service for the fallen Douglas County sheriff's deputy. He was a godly 29 year old man, with a wife and two little girls. He adored his God and his family, and had left banking and finance to become a cop because he wanted to help people. He was shot when he was trying to talk a deranged man off the figurative ledge. Much of the service was about the God he loved, but the media left that part on the cutting room floor. The only words that our pastor said that were covered on the news was "this sucks", taken completely out of context.

    And the perp's "roommate" (so called by the media) was actually his gay lover, and the perp was ranting about the restraining order he was unable to get (that part wasn't mentioned in the service, but could be picked up in the background of some of his periscope that the media played).

    Sorry for the rant, but my heart breaks for this family. I get online and read all of the political commentary, I see the complete misrepresentation of things by the media, and I get angry. I confess I have been just as quick to gobble up these things before, but this time I'm face to face with the reality of what happened, and I feel in my gut that there are real people involved in these tragedies, and everyone (both those I agree with and those I disagree with) just want to babble on about their agenda.

    Again, sorry for the rant. As Josie said...flame away.
    Thank you for this comment.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
    I've seen this bullshit floating around the net for the last week or so been trying to put my thoughts together on it. I've got real world stuff to do right now but I think tonight here is where I 'll post my response first because the hate doesn't drive most people here and I know I'll get honest feed back. Y'all stay tuned hopefully I'll make some sense and learning will occur for me and some of y'all.
    I look forward to your comments.
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  16. #56
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    Guys it's gonna take me several days to get a post for this prepared if not longer. I surprised myself with the anger this subject brought up. I was making my points but not in manner I wanted to . Never had this problem before , I will say this problem involves several different problems and the main one is not cops wanting to go home at night but I have read stuff else where on the net the last few days I didn't realize I had pissed off me as I am about it.
    All love is unrequited-Cmdr. Susan Ivanova //Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. - Capt. Mal remember boys and girls ATFTRAF I used to run with giants, now I wait to be zombie road kill.

  17. #57
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    Seems to me nearly every one of the examples of bad shoots by cops of late, has been from rookie cops or less than 2 years as a cop. I find that a disturbing trend. Something broke and it did so recently so it would appear.
    Facts?? We don't need no stinkin facts...

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayku View Post
    Seems to me nearly every one of the examples of bad shoots by cops of late, has been from rookie cops or less than 2 years as a cop. I find that a disturbing trend. Something broke and it did so recently so it would appear.
    You can think that if you want to but I've been seeing stories such as these for at least a decade, maybe more. And I think that there have always been these kinds of incidents of abuse of power but with the phones everywhere these days they get recorded more often.
    I have read and re-read the article in the OP. I can't see why any REAL, TRUE, CONSTITUTIONALLY MINDED policeman would have a problem with what this guy said. Honestly.
    "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." — VADM James Stockdale, USN (1923-2005)

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayku View Post
    Seems to me nearly every one of the examples of bad shoots by cops of late, has been from rookie cops or less than 2 years as a cop. I find that a disturbing trend. Something broke and it did so recently so it would appear.
    Selection and training.
    All love is unrequited-Cmdr. Susan Ivanova //Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. - Capt. Mal remember boys and girls ATFTRAF I used to run with giants, now I wait to be zombie road kill.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Thinwater View Post
    I see the usual cop haters are at it again.
    i only hate the bad ones and there are plenty of them to go around!..


    byron

  21. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by NC Susan View Post
    I disagree

    Cops should control and make their areas safe for the good citizens

    Criminals don't follow any of the laws and cops should be given some leniency instead of more restraints

    The reason crime is bad is because lawyers are on retainers and courts allow plea bargains
    Arrest them charge them and incarcerate them is the solution to crime
    Remove them from society

    If they can't be civil instead of criminal in society then cast them into jails or prison farms

    Quit blaming the good guys


    My ancient aunt said it would take a year in the 1950s to see so much crime as we see daily
    And a month in the 1960s
    And today we can't even keep up in a single news cycle


    All we have now is lawyers getting rich and cops getting shot and crimenals getting more bold and more deadly
    I agree. And under 0bola, cops were demonized, villified, neutered by law, and assassinated. Result? After many rears of decreasing violent crime, it's gone up for the last 2-3 years.
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  22. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
    Guys it's gonna take me several days to get a post for this prepared if not longer. I surprised myself with the anger this subject brought up. I was making my points but not in manner I wanted to . Never had this problem before , I will say this problem involves several different problems and the main one is not cops wanting to go home at night but I have read stuff else where on the net the last few days I didn't realize I had pissed off me as I am about it.
    I hope you do a separate thread so it is easier to find. I look forward to reading whatever you write.
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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    I agree. And under 0bola, cops were demonized, villified, neutered by law, and assassinated. Result? After many rears of decreasing violent crime, it's gone up for the last 2-3 years.
    I'm not so sure it is that simple. I'll admit that society as a whole may be getting worse. I just feel that we have such an ease of information gathering and verification now that we notice these stories more. 50 years ago, one rogue cop would have been known in his community and the local paper. Now, they are viral in 24 hours. I support good police. I despise those that lie for bad police.
    I said on a different thread months ago, if you catch a police behaving badly on video, wait to send it viral until after they have filed their official reports. Chances are, you get more than one because they go back to the station and make sure their stories match when they do their reports. You'll still have a battle because they just see a different reality about situations. You and I could see CLEAR video evidence and they can usually pass a lie-detector that it happened the WAY THEY SAID IT DID. Our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution to help prevent over-reach by authority. This problem is not 2 years old.
    "You are allowed to be disappointed but not surprised"

  24. #64
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    Another one:


    Man shot, killed by deputies after 911 call claiming woman was trying to kill family members
    WSBTV ^

    Posted on 1/5/2018, 4:00:20 PM by JP1201

    WALKER COUNTY, Ga. - Agents with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation are looking into an officer-involved shooting in Walker County where a deputy shot and killed a man in his Rossville home.

    It all started in the early-morning hours of New Year’s Day when a woman called 911 and said her estranged daughter-in-law threatened to kill her child and then herself.

    When deputies arrived at the home on Meadowview Drive in Rossville, the family was sleeping.

    The estranged daughter-in-law was living in the home with her parents while going through a divorce.

    After the 911 call claiming there could be a murder-suicide in progress, deputies surrounded the home and GBI officials said those deputies stated several times who they were, but the family members said they were sleeping and didn’t hear the deputies.

    When Mark Parkinson, who lives in the house, finally heard the commotion outside, he got out of bed to see what was going on.

    He was armed, looking through a window, and that’s when Deputy John Chandler fired a fatal shot.

    The victim’s wife, Diana Parkinson, said her husband would have never had the gun out if he had known there were police officers on the property. She said they didn’t know who was there.

    “By the time I got into the kitchen, which probably was 30 seconds after he got up, he was already on the floor and had been shot,” Diana Parkinson said.

    GBI agents are working to determine whether the 911 call was fake. Right now, they said, they have no evidence to validate an emergency.
    E Deploribus Unum

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  25. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
    Selection and training.
    QUOTAS!!

    Summerthyme

  26. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post
    I'm not so sure it is that simple. I'll admit that society as a whole may be getting worse. I just feel that we have such an ease of information gathering and verification now that we notice these stories more. 50 years ago, one rogue cop would have been known in his community and the local paper. Now, they are viral in 24 hours. I support good police. I despise those that lie for bad police.
    I said on a different thread months ago, if you catch a police behaving badly on video, wait to send it viral until after they have filed their official reports. Chances are, you get more than one because they go back to the station and make sure their stories match when they do their reports. You'll still have a battle because they just see a different reality about situations. You and I could see CLEAR video evidence and they can usually pass a lie-detector that it happened the WAY THEY SAID IT DID. Our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution to help prevent over-reach by authority. This problem is not 2 years old.
    Communities were more friendly, people knew each other better, weren't on devices 24/7, not as much drug use, cops were often known to residents, and before the Miranda law and other ACLU goodies, bad guys were PUT AWAY for actual life, or executed. Before AFDC, the illegitimacy rate for whites was 2%, for blacks was 20%. Now for the country as a whole it's around 30 to 40%, haven't looked lately, and for blacks, 79-80%. What happens when children are raised without a married mother and father in the home? FERAL HUMANS.... of course some single mother manage to raise decent human beings, but usually that's if the singlehood is due to divorce or being widowed. CHOOSING to have brats out of wedlock almost guarantees feralhood. Even divorce, they found, disturbs children tremendously.

    When you have 2 - 3 generations of what used to be called increasing bastardy, increasing irresponsible brood mares on welfare, absent sperm donors, and I could go on and on about bad influences - "Nothing is YOUR fault - it's all OTHER peoples' faults!" - kids not taught even a semblance of personal responsiblity, human decency or morality - then the crap cops have to deal with is increasilyg horrendous.

    Add to that ACLU poster boy judges, legislatures (often beat down by various commiepuke lawyers and orgs) who don't want criminals to have to ever suffer long imprisonment or (shudder) the death penalty, and the revolving door of prison, the mayhem IN the prisons, and basically no death penalty no matter how demoniac and vile the crimes - we get what we have.

    The burden is actually so gargantuan I can't imagine how anyone can stand joining law enforcement.

    The screaming harpies from commiepukes of all stripes, the libertarians who hate law enforcement as a principle, (many) blacks and illegals who are lifestyle criminals, the judges who side with criminals, and so on - it's crazy.

    And then people damn the cops for not being Mr. Rogers, sweater and all.

    Of course there are bad cops. ALways have been. But the social atmosphere is not what it used to be.
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  27. #67
    Originally Posted by Luddite

    Our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution to help prevent over-reach by authority. This problem is not 2 years old.
    Founding fathers? Here's what some of them had to say:

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending
    with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution
    was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the
    government of any other.

    John Adams

    It is religion and morality alone which can establish
    the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of
    a free constitution is pure virtue. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.

    John Adams


    Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will
    secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt
    .
    Samuel Adams


    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations
    become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

    Benjamin Franklin


    It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish
    without virtue in the people.

    Richard Henry Lee


    Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.

    George Washington


    It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution.
    Thomas Jefferson


    Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles.
    Patrick Henry

    And my favorite, Edmund Burke was a political philosopher widely studied by the Founding fathers:

    Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains on their own appetites—in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity;—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption;—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.
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    This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.

  28. #68
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    [QUOTE=Be Well;6725272]Founding fathers? Here's what some of them had to say:


    Be Well, you made my argument for me. The boys in blue must follow these quotes the same as john doe citizen. I can't see the need to confuse what great law enforcement officers do and what this OP is about.... The social contract that allows us to assume that leos are going to use common sense and "police their own" has been broken. I'll support them by default but don't expect a pass when examples like those in this thread are presented.
    "You are allowed to be disappointed but not surprised"

  29. #69
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    SMH...I don't know about this feller, Zimmerman = A legend in his own mind. I bet he even boasts to his family that he could kick Chuck Norris's ass in a NY minute.

    "I am THE Michael Z. Williamson. There are no others, and there are a great many people thankful for that fact."
    http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/index.php

    Writing articles like this to drum up business for his book sales.

  30. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dozdoats View Post
    I see the usual cop haters are at it again.

    It isn't the cops, dude.

    It's the pussies behind a badge that give cops a bad name. Not to mention the "good cops" who put up with that shit.

    Especially this.

  31. #71
    [QUOTE=Luddite;6725299]
    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    Founding fathers? Here's what some of them had to say:


    Be Well, you made my argument for me. The boys in blue must follow these quotes the same as john doe citizen. I can't see the need to confuse what great law enforcement officers do and what this OP is about.... The social contract that allows us to assume that leos are going to use common sense and "police their own" has been broken. I'll support them by default but don't expect a pass when examples like those in this thread are presented.
    Gross exaggeration. Are you a cop? Ever been in LE? I am not "giving them a pass", in case you are misunderstanding my points.
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  32. #72
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    [QUOTE=Be Well;6725321]
    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post

    Gross exaggeration. Are you a cop? Ever been in LE? I am not "giving them a pass", in case you are misunderstanding my points.
    No I haven't. I have more than 3 in the extended family. Life-long friends with more than 3.
    I'll not let the absence of that on my resume keep me from having an opinion on this topic. BTW, I'd say 75% of the ones I deal with personally, are/were good police. One of those even told me he was responsible for putting 3 different cops in jail. (Later in the course of discussion, it came out he was "backed in a corner" and had no choice.)

    There-in the problem lies.

    ETA: How about this suggestion: Make every police, local, state and federal carry his/her OWN liability insurance just like a doctor. If they won't "police their own", the insurance carrier surely will.
    Last edited by Luddite; 01-05-2018 at 08:24 PM.
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  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixin View Post
    SMH...I don't know about this feller, Zimmerman = A legend in his own mind. I bet he even boasts to his family that he could kick Chuck Norris's ass in a NY minute.

    "I am THE Michael Z. Williamson. There are no others, and there are a great many people thankful for that fact."
    http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/index.php

    Writing articles like this to drum up business for his book sales.
    Oh, no! Book sales!
    Nothing that you wrote here negates what this guy said in the OP. This is HIS way of thinking. It is also mine. When I ever call a cop it will be because everything that I have tried to do to neutralize the threat has failed. I expect said cop(s) to show up ready to do battle against the bad guy. (and that bad guy ain't me or mine either) I truly don't know of a situation that I would call a cop but I'm saying IF I did I would expect him to do his JOB and not wimp out or kill my dogs. I still can't see a problem with what he wrote. Can you or anyone explain that to me?
    "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." — VADM James Stockdale, USN (1923-2005)

  34. #74
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    [QUOTE=Be Well;6725321]
    Quote Originally Posted by Luddite View Post

    Gross exaggeration. Are you a cop? Ever been in LE? I am not "giving them a pass", in case you are misunderstanding my points.
    YOU are the gross exaggeration.
    Just because someone isn't a cop or hasn't been a cop in no way should stop them from speaking their opinion on cops and murdering cops.
    I don't care who you are, if you have a problem with us calling the SOB who killed the guy crawling down a hallway on his stomach a ****ing murderer. YOU are the one who should STFU.
    "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." — VADM James Stockdale, USN (1923-2005)

  35. #75
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  36. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by sunny225 View Post

    YOU are the gross exaggeration.
    Just because someone isn't a cop or hasn't been a cop in no way should stop them from speaking their opinion on cops and murdering cops.
    I don't care who you are, if you have a problem with us calling the SOB who killed the guy crawling down a hallway on his stomach a ****ing murderer. YOU are the one who should STFU.
    I asked because he stated that there is no oversight for bad cops. I was not saying he could not have an opinion. Everyone has opinions, it is their right. But not all opinions are informed. Timbo who was a cop for a long time knew what he was talking about and there are oversight mechanisms for bad cops. Some departments are better than others.

    And I will not STFU unless a mod tells me to, which thankfully you are not.
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  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    Founding fathers? Here's what some of them had to say:

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending
    with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution
    was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the
    government of any other.

    John Adams

    It is religion and morality alone which can establish
    the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of
    a free constitution is pure virtue. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.

    John Adams


    Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will
    secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt
    .
    Samuel Adams


    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations
    become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

    Benjamin Franklin


    It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish
    without virtue in the people.

    Richard Henry Lee


    Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.

    George Washington


    It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution.
    Thomas Jefferson


    Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles.
    Patrick Henry

    And my favorite, Edmund Burke was a political philosopher widely studied by the Founding fathers:

    Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains on their own appetites—in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity;—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption;—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

    Are you suggesting that we don’t live in the moral and ethical world anymore, so we should change how government runs? That since the founding fathers said this form of government won’t work with our current society we should abandon our foundation?

  38. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Warm Wisconsin View Post
    Are you suggesting that we don’t live in the moral and ethical world anymore, so we should change how government runs? That since the founding fathers said this form of government won’t work with our current society we should abandon our foundation?
    I am saying that the Constitution will only work with a moral population; a people who understood the necessity of virtue and strived for it, as understood and stated clearly by the men who put together the Constitution and signed it. And put their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor on the line. We are already so far from the constitutional principles the Founders intended that I don't see any instant solution. It's sort of like in schools when I was a kid, they had the "honor system". And we were graded on civility and behavior. Imagine trying to do that now.

    Think about these three sentences:


    Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.
    https://soundcloud.com/user-309670005
    Audio Bhagavad Gita downloadable

    This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    I asked because he stated that there is no oversight for bad cops. I was not saying he could not have an opinion. Everyone has opinions, it is their right. But not all opinions are informed. Timbo who was a cop for a long time knew what he was talking about and there are oversight mechanisms for bad cops. Some departments are better than others.

    And I will not STFU unless a mod tells me to, which thankfully you are not.
    As to your last sentence:
    I said this: "I don't care who you are, if you have a problem with us calling the SOB who killed the guy crawling down a hallway on his stomach a ****ing murderer. YOU are the one who should STFU."

    Are you inferring that you are one who has a problem with us calling that cop a ****ing murderer? Because that's who I was saying should STFU.
    "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." — VADM James Stockdale, USN (1923-2005)

  40. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by sunny225 View Post
    As to your last sentence:
    I said this: "I don't care who you are, if you have a problem with us calling the SOB who killed the guy crawling down a hallway on his stomach a ****ing murderer. YOU are the one who should STFU."

    Are you inferring that you are one who has a problem with us calling that cop a ****ing murderer? Because that's who I was saying should STFU.
    Perhaps if you wrote English in such a way that could be deciphered, your meaning would have been clear. It seemed clear to me that you were accusing me of all that stuff.

    I have no use for so-called debate with people who are so angry they fly off the handle and basically have verbal tantrums.
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