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OP-ED The Cost of Devaluing Women
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hognutz View Post
    Women devalued themselves.
    and I would hasten to add - KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY in many cases when it was advantageous to do so.
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    and I would hasten to add - KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY in many cases when it was advantageous to do so.
    Really? Who do you know that did that?
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Really? Who do you know that did that?
    well lets see - the receptionist that wore her crack to work everyday and ruined a marriage and a partnership of 20 years; the coed who traded sex for grades; the flight attendant who killed an existing marriage to be married to a pilot and

    on and on and ON and ON and ON

    and now you'll say - ""well it takes two" - - - and I will respond - - -

    EXACTLY

    what RUINED women for not only WOMEN but for men is was and ALWAYS WILL BE - that lie called THIRD WAVE FEMINISM and this new BULLSHIT of FOURTH WAVE FEMINISM - where it has become the SWORN DUTY of most liberal college eda-ma-kated females to destroy the patriarchy is going to be the coupe de gra of the family -

    which - the last I looked was the basic building block of society - just sayin'
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    well lets see - the receptionist that wore her crack to work everyday and ruined a marriage and a partnership of 20 years; the coed who traded sex for grades; the flight attendant who killed an existing marriage to be married to a pilot and

    on and on and ON and ON and ON

    and now you'll say - ""well it takes two" - - - and I will respond - - -

    EXACTLY

    Well, you're talking personal relationships.

    The article is about the male sense of entitlement in the corporate environment.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Well, you're talking personal relationships.

    The article is about the male sense of entitlement in the corporate environment.
    I would label a partnership and a pilots job parts of the "corporate environment".

    I am NOT condoning disrespecting women and I think sexual predators should be hung by their BALLS. that said the "corporate world" is comprised of personal relationships and personal interactions. ultimately there are often NO hard and fast boundaries in that mix as those boundaries tend to fall away as things become more "familiar" - familiar being defined as time in grade and level of comfort between coworkers. things "happen" - I am NOT saying that is RIGHT or JUSTIFIED - I am saying that women have been trading their sexuality for advancement and favor since Moses wore short pants. it's not a new phenomenon and third and forth wave feminism has ADDED to that "MESS" by making such activity - on BOTH sides - more common.

    men can be boorish and women CAN BE WHOORISH when some perceived opportunity or need - real or imagined - presents itself

    I guess we could chalk ALL of it up to HUMAN NATURE
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    I would label a partnership and a pilots job parts of the "corporate environment".

    I am NOT condoning disrespecting women and I think sexual predators should be hung by their BALLS. that said the "corporate world" is comprised of personal relationships and personal interactions. ultimately there are often NO hard and fast boundaries in that mix as those boundaries tend to fall away as things become more "familiar" - familiar being defined as time in grade and level of comfort between coworkers. things "happen" - I am NOT saying that is RIGHT or JUSTIFIED - I am saying that women have been trading their sexuality for advancement and favor since Moses wore short pants. it's not a new phenomenon and third and forth wave feminism has ADDED to that "MESS" by making more such activity - on BOTH sides - more common.

    men can be boorish and women CAN BE WHOORISH when some perceived opportunity or need - real or imagined - presents itself

    I guess we could chalk ALL of it up to HUMAN NATURE

    In saying that, you totally ignore the whole class of women, such as the author and me among many others, who neither wanted nor instigated being hit on in the work place by pigs. And that's what they are. They assume they can do these things to you. They don't care whether you like it or want it. They go out of their way to be as unpleasant or revengeful as possible if they don't get their way. I know.

    This behavior may be "human nature" to you, but it isn't to me. It always hurt me when men acted as anything less than gentlemen. I expected more.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  7. #47
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    Packy:
    So you worked with a couple of jerks, that when schooled to not be a jerk towards you actually listened. That's a world of difference when working with a predator who takes your "no" as raising the bar to take it to the next level of harassment and eventually sexual abuse.


    prime example of someone who needs to be dealt with severely and instantly - I can't see that getting a pass very easily in today's climate - not that it EVER should have been given a pass mind you
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    Packy:


    prime example of someone who needs to be dealt with severely and instantly - I can't see that getting a pass very easily in today's climate - not that it EVER should have been given a pass mind you
    In many places it's institutionalized. It happened to me around 1982 at a big bank. And they laughed.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    In saying that, you totally ignore the whole class of women, such as the author and me among many others, who neither wanted nor instigated being hit on in the work place by pigs. And that's what they are. They assume they can do these things to you. They don't care whether you like it or want it. They go out of their way to be as unpleasant or revengeful as possible if they don't get their way. I know.

    This behavior may be "human nature" to you, but it isn't to me. It always hurt me when men acted as anything less than gentlemen. I expected more.
    I'm not ignoring anything - in fact I'm AGREEING with your premise - that behavior is unconscionable, should NEVER be tolerated and should be instantly punished. I'm certainly not calling it human nature. isn't a woman who is willing to trade her sexuality for advancement ALSO a type of predator?

    what I'm doing is simply pointing out that THERE ARE women who have invited this type of behavior in the past and a certain segment who do so today. I lay a lot of that blame on FEMINISM - specifically 3'rd and 4'th wave feminism. that's contributed more to devaluing women than anything else.
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  10. #50
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    Kitty -
    I am willing to bet my soul to a doughnut hole that if that were to happen today with evidence in hand it would be balls, blood and guts in the lobby of that bank building before the close of business - THAT DAY.

    NO ONE should be disrespected as they try to make a living - assuming they don't bring it on themselves.
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggedyman View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything - in fact I'm AGREEING with your premise - that behavior is unconscionable, should NEVER be tolerated and should be instantly punished. I'm certainly not calling it human nature. isn't a woman who is willing to trade her sexuality for advancement ALSO a type of predator?

    what I'm doing is simply pointing out that THERE ARE women who have invited this type of behavior in the past and a certain segment who do so today. I lay a lot of that blame on FEMINISM - specifically 3'rd and 4'th wave feminism. that's contributed more to devaluing women than anything else.
    That's your opinion, and I'm not going to try to sway it.

    I think I'm done with this conversation. It's making me tired.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  12. #52
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    well good night Kitty -I respect your opinions and insights. I'm sorry that you and others here have had those unhappy experiences. there are TONS of us here who have NOT engaged in that behavior and there are those of us who HAVE - but who have had the decency and humanity to accept the NO when it came.

    be well
    RM
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  13. #53
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    Really...

    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Sorry to disappoint you, BN, but there's just not many "Merediths" out there. This movie wasn't true in 1994 and it's not true now. Although it is a very scary work of fiction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_(film)
    1) In the middle of college, the late-forties wife of an elderly doctor made it VERY clear, in front of my parents, that she would very much like to go "camping" with me.

    2) In 10th grade, a hippie-ish chick around age 30 who happened to be one of my teachers did this when momentarily alone in a classroom with me (I had stayed after class several minutes to ask her about a project everyone had been assigned): while wearing no bra and probably owning a set of DDs, while facing me and leaning over a counter less than 3' in front of me, pulled down her already low-cut shirt so I could see EVERYTHING, looked in my eyes, and smiled quite mischeviously. (She had previously let me know something about where she lived.) She was unmarried, at least.

    3) Age 25, with about 6 weeks to kill before something else planned came off, I had taken a restaurant job where I commonly was there til closing (was the fry cook). A female manager in her mid-30s from another store subbed one night that I was there til closing for the regular managers. She asked me several times if I wanted a ride home, even knowing that I had a vehicle. She volunteered her phone number, and just asked that I not call when her husband was home.

    4) Age 24, on an oil rig. Had a rare female supervisor, age about 29. Weirdly hung around the logging trailer (where she and I worked on opposite 12-hour shifts) to talk with me, repeatedly, with no work utility to it, to the point of her going seriously short on sleep. Would sit or stand oddly close to me most of the time.

    5) Age 40s. Female co-owner of a company I was considering working for/had done some work for in the past, married to the other owner. Were kind of friends with both of them, to the point I stayed in their house overnight several times and did some social stuff with them. She made it VERY clear how she wanted her and I to get together; she wanted me to get divorced, and live there with her (marriage hinted at). She was also blunt about having no reservations about sex act variation or frequency (a common major concern for any previously-married man who's gone through the standard up-for-anything-anytime before marriage, and slowly tapering off to rare starfishing after safely landing the second ring).

    6) Age 21. Female assistant manager at field office made it clear she could be convinced to go out with me.

    Yeah. Merediths are rare.

    Proud member Alt-Right group "Scientists For Trump". (Smart Americans know he's right.)
    A man should only take a wife whose Bible includes Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Colossians, Malachi, Isaiah, Ephesians, Corinthians, Hebrews, Timothy, Titus, Proverbs, Mark, Peter & Revelation. Ecclesiastes 7:28 (NIV) tells him the odds.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Melodi View Post
    Until YOUR daughter calls you on the phone in tears (or your wife, or your niece etc) maybe it gets repeated so much because those of us over 50 LIVED it, and most of us DO HAVE to work a paying job at some point in our lives; even if the goal is marriage and family when the time is right.

    Enjoy the fishtank...
    If my wife called me about a fella harassing her... He would be gutted like a trout.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    The Cost of Devaluing Women

    By SALLIE KRAWCHECK

    DEC. 2, 2017


    My first job out of college in the late 1980s was at Salomon Brothers, a trading house of cigar-smoking, expletive-spewing strivers. One day, I leaned over a colleague’s desk to work on a spreadsheet, and heard loud laughter from behind me; one of the guys was pretending to perform a sex act on me. Almost every day, I found a Xerox copy of male genitalia on my desk.

    I was not alone in being treated this way: During that era another brokerage house, Smith Barney, paid out $150 million in a bias and harassment case — known as the “boom-boom room” suit, named after a basement party room in one of its branches. Wall Street was a hypermasculine culture, where the all-nighter was a badge of honor and the ever-bigger deal was proof of one’s status, and women were not safe, either emotionally or physically.

    In the 1990s, I changed firms and was now a midlevel professional. The harassment shifted: Instead I had to rebuff a client, a chief executive, who asked me to join him — “Just you, no need to bring the rest of the team” — in his hotel room at 11 p.m. to go over some numbers. One company rescinded a job offer upon learning I had a baby at home.

    I changed firms again and moved another rung up the corporate ladder, and it felt a little less fraught to deal with the inevitable. I was able to say no to the senior government official who said, “How about we go up to my hotel room?” before obscenely wagging his tongue at me in front of my colleagues. I could knock the portfolio manager’s hands off my leg without too much fear of retribution.

    These are stories I have not often revisited. Maybe I’ve shared them over drinks with female friends or with younger women in the industry, to let them know what it used to be like. But in the dizzying past few weeks, as this crucial moment of reckoning on sexual harassment continues, it’s clear that the harassment I was subjected to is not in the past. Worse, I know that being a white woman afforded me a privilege in dealing with these issues that unfortunately not everyone has.
    Continue reading the main story

    What we are only beginning to recognize is that demeaning and devaluing women is an insidious, expensive problem. It’s not just the eye-popping settlements in some cases, like the $32 million paid by Bill O’Reilly to settle a harassment claim. Nor is it just the high salaries network stars have been making while allegedly assaulting subordinates, like the $20 million, or more, for Matt Lauer. It only starts there.

    The bigger cost derives from how women’s ideas are discounted and their talent ignored. I have seen it up close in the two worlds I know best: Wall Street, where I was chief executive of Smith Barney and of Merrill Lynch Wealth Management, and in Silicon Valley, where I’ve raised money to run my start-up, Ellevest. These places are perhaps the purest microcosms of capitalism, and their lessons are instructive for all of us.

    Both Wall Street and venture capital are industries whose product is money: Wall Street directs trillions of dollars to the sectors or businesses that it believes will deliver the highest returns. Likewise, Silicon Valley invests hundreds of billions of dollars in start-ups that it believes will deliver the best returns. Both pick economic winners and losers.

    Wall Street has for years prided itself on being a “meritocracy,” arguing that its performance-based culture drives capital to the best trading ideas and the best deals. Despite research showing that companies with more diversity, and particularly more women in leadership, offer higher returns on capital, lower risk and greater innovation than firms without such leadership, Wall Street has been, and is, predominantly male at the top. Its trading floors are 90 percent men. This ignores studies indicating that members of homogeneous groups tend to trust one another too much, leading to potential market mispricings.

    Homogeneity has led Wall Street firms to travel in packs, going after the same opportunities at the same time: junk bonds in the 1980s, tech stocks in the late 1990s and subprime lending in the run-up to the crash 10 years ago. In particular, when the subprime bet proved wrong, the big banks went essentially bankrupt and were bailed out by the United States government because officials worried that the economic cost of their failure would have been catastrophic.

    Thus one can draw a line from the gender discrimination on Wall Street through to the lack of women — and lack of diversity of thought — in the industry to increased risk and to the financial crisis.

    Silicon Valley today is rife with parallels to Wall Street, its lessons unlearned. Like Wall Street, it prides itself on its meritocratic culture, arguing that its performance-based orientation will drive capital to the best start-ups. There are few senior women at the top venture capital firms. The industry funds few start-ups run by women. Last year, of the approximately $60 billion that venture capital firms invested, just $1.5 billion went to businesses with female founders.

    One might argue that start-ups run by men just happen to deliver the highest possible returns. The mythology around the industry bolsters this, with venture capitalists boasting of investing in Facebook practically out of the dorm room.

    But that argument doesn’t hold up. Investors in venture capital funds would have been as well off simply investing in the stock market over the past five to 15 years. That’s what I see in reviewing the data from the research firm Cambridge Associates: Investors in the high-risk, high-reward world of start-ups essentially did no better than they could have opening an account at their neighborhood brokerage. What might help those venture capitalists? First Round Capital reports that its investments in companies with a female founder have posted 63 percent better returns than men-only firms.

    Venture capital and Wall Street are both funded by “other people’s money.” Pension funds, endowments, mutual funds and individual investors provide the fuel that enables this sexist, exclusionary behavior. The irony is that so many of these endowments and foundations exist to make the world a fairer place, not to exclude vast segments of the population. Yet because their money is tied up in industries where women’s perspectives, and diversity of viewpoints, aren’t valued on the whole, their causes — and their bottom lines — lose out.

    This moment of ferreting out sexual harassers is a step forward. It also reveals how much work we have to do on the biases that allowed such behavior to flourish.

    This summer, I was in Silicon Valley, pitching for a round of funding for my company. I was the only woman in a room of 18 venture capitalists. A few of the men were engaged, a few were typing on their iPhones, and the lead investor was alternating between peppering me with questions and leaning back in his chair with his arms folded. He challenged my knowledge on digital acquisition, on acquisition costs.

    Fair enough, even if he was being a little prickly. Finally, I noted that our business was planning to hire a few financial advisers. He proceeded to give me chapter and verse on how financial advisers are hard to manage and instructed me on the economics of the financial advisory business.

    I was astonished, because I have managed more financial advisers in my career than probably anyone in the country. And though it’s been years since I have been sexually harassed the way I was at Salomon, I realized in that moment how deep our gender views run, how men are still seen as leaders and women as more junior.

    This man naturally assumed that he knew more about it than I did. It was his ingrained view of women — a view that’s costing all of us.


    Sallie Krawcheck is the chief executive of Ellevest, a digital investment and planning platform for women, and the author of “Own It: The Power of Women at Work.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/o...ing-women.html
    The fact that she feels the need to complain highlights the fact that she is in fact powerless.

  16. #56
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    Thanks MS.
    The estrogen was getting strong on this thread.
    Kind of a mutual masturbatory self pity party.
    Thanks for balancing it out a little.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence
    People are crazy and times are strange
    I'm locked in tight, I'm out of range
    I used to care, but things have changed

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    The fact that she feels the need to complain highlights the fact that she is in fact powerless.
    Here I thought she was just cynically selling the 'diversity is strength' agenda on the backs of abused women. (much as gun control is sold on the dead bodies of victims)
    Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaSmith View Post
    1) In the middle of college, the late-forties wife of an elderly doctor made it VERY clear, in front of my parents, that she would very much like to go "camping" with me.

    2) In 10th grade, a hippie-ish chick around age 30 who happened to be one of my teachers did this when momentarily alone in a classroom with me (I had stayed after class several minutes to ask her about a project everyone had been assigned): while wearing no bra and probably owning a set of DDs, while facing me and leaning over a counter less than 3' in front of me, pulled down her already low-cut shirt so I could see EVERYTHING, looked in my eyes, and smiled quite mischeviously. (She had previously let me know something about where she lived.) She was unmarried, at least.

    3) Age 25, with about 6 weeks to kill before something else planned came off, I had taken a restaurant job where I commonly was there til closing (was the fry cook). A female manager in her mid-30s from another store subbed one night that I was there til closing for the regular managers. She asked me several times if I wanted a ride home, even knowing that I had a vehicle. She volunteered her phone number, and just asked that I not call when her husband was home.

    4) Age 24, on an oil rig. Had a rare female supervisor, age about 29. Weirdly hung around the logging trailer (where she and I worked on opposite 12-hour shifts) to talk with me, repeatedly, with no work utility to it, to the point of her going seriously short on sleep. Would sit or stand oddly close to me most of the time.

    5) Age 40s. Female co-owner of a company I was considering working for/had done some work for in the past, married to the other owner. Were kind of friends with both of them, to the point I stayed in their house overnight several times and did some social stuff with them. She made it VERY clear how she wanted her and I to get together; she wanted me to get divorced, and live there with her (marriage hinted at). She was also blunt about having no reservations about sex act variation or frequency (a common major concern for any previously-married man who's gone through the standard up-for-anything-anytime before marriage, and slowly tapering off to rare starfishing after safely landing the second ring).

    6) Age 21. Female assistant manager at field office made it clear she could be convinced to go out with me.

    Yeah. Merediths are rare.

    And that's just anecdotal. Who KNOWS where else this is happening?

    Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I have no desire to rerun the Salem Witch Trials, only this time with white dudes cast in the role of "Pointy Hat Wearers".

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacknarwhal View Post
    And that's just anecdotal. Who KNOWS where else this is happening?

    Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I have no desire to rerun the Salem Witch Trials, only this time with white dudes cast in the role of "Pointy Hat Wearers".
    I have no wish to see the Salem Witch Trials reinstated either, one point to make, it's not just white dudes or dudettes involved. One side does not cancel out the other, male or female. On the job there should be the ability to resolve the problems, preferably within a group appointed and qualified to investigate and recommend actions.

    No one male or female of any ethnicity should feel threatened by anothers actions on the job.
    “Our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite.”

  20. #60
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    Along the vein that MS and Terry were speaking, I was very surprised and a lot disgusted that the Time Person of the Year cover that came out this morning pictured all women, when it has been a good number of YOUNG MEN who started speaking up first.

    Time's bias is showing bigtime and it needs to be pointed out to them in spades.


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