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OP-ED The Cost of Devaluing Women
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  1. #1
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    2 The Cost of Devaluing Women

    The Cost of Devaluing Women

    By SALLIE KRAWCHECK

    DEC. 2, 2017


    My first job out of college in the late 1980s was at Salomon Brothers, a trading house of cigar-smoking, expletive-spewing strivers. One day, I leaned over a colleague’s desk to work on a spreadsheet, and heard loud laughter from behind me; one of the guys was pretending to perform a sex act on me. Almost every day, I found a Xerox copy of male genitalia on my desk.

    I was not alone in being treated this way: During that era another brokerage house, Smith Barney, paid out $150 million in a bias and harassment case — known as the “boom-boom room” suit, named after a basement party room in one of its branches. Wall Street was a hypermasculine culture, where the all-nighter was a badge of honor and the ever-bigger deal was proof of one’s status, and women were not safe, either emotionally or physically.

    In the 1990s, I changed firms and was now a midlevel professional. The harassment shifted: Instead I had to rebuff a client, a chief executive, who asked me to join him — “Just you, no need to bring the rest of the team” — in his hotel room at 11 p.m. to go over some numbers. One company rescinded a job offer upon learning I had a baby at home.

    I changed firms again and moved another rung up the corporate ladder, and it felt a little less fraught to deal with the inevitable. I was able to say no to the senior government official who said, “How about we go up to my hotel room?” before obscenely wagging his tongue at me in front of my colleagues. I could knock the portfolio manager’s hands off my leg without too much fear of retribution.

    These are stories I have not often revisited. Maybe I’ve shared them over drinks with female friends or with younger women in the industry, to let them know what it used to be like. But in the dizzying past few weeks, as this crucial moment of reckoning on sexual harassment continues, it’s clear that the harassment I was subjected to is not in the past. Worse, I know that being a white woman afforded me a privilege in dealing with these issues that unfortunately not everyone has.
    Continue reading the main story

    What we are only beginning to recognize is that demeaning and devaluing women is an insidious, expensive problem. It’s not just the eye-popping settlements in some cases, like the $32 million paid by Bill O’Reilly to settle a harassment claim. Nor is it just the high salaries network stars have been making while allegedly assaulting subordinates, like the $20 million, or more, for Matt Lauer. It only starts there.

    The bigger cost derives from how women’s ideas are discounted and their talent ignored. I have seen it up close in the two worlds I know best: Wall Street, where I was chief executive of Smith Barney and of Merrill Lynch Wealth Management, and in Silicon Valley, where I’ve raised money to run my start-up, Ellevest. These places are perhaps the purest microcosms of capitalism, and their lessons are instructive for all of us.

    Both Wall Street and venture capital are industries whose product is money: Wall Street directs trillions of dollars to the sectors or businesses that it believes will deliver the highest returns. Likewise, Silicon Valley invests hundreds of billions of dollars in start-ups that it believes will deliver the best returns. Both pick economic winners and losers.

    Wall Street has for years prided itself on being a “meritocracy,” arguing that its performance-based culture drives capital to the best trading ideas and the best deals. Despite research showing that companies with more diversity, and particularly more women in leadership, offer higher returns on capital, lower risk and greater innovation than firms without such leadership, Wall Street has been, and is, predominantly male at the top. Its trading floors are 90 percent men. This ignores studies indicating that members of homogeneous groups tend to trust one another too much, leading to potential market mispricings.

    Homogeneity has led Wall Street firms to travel in packs, going after the same opportunities at the same time: junk bonds in the 1980s, tech stocks in the late 1990s and subprime lending in the run-up to the crash 10 years ago. In particular, when the subprime bet proved wrong, the big banks went essentially bankrupt and were bailed out by the United States government because officials worried that the economic cost of their failure would have been catastrophic.

    Thus one can draw a line from the gender discrimination on Wall Street through to the lack of women — and lack of diversity of thought — in the industry to increased risk and to the financial crisis.

    Silicon Valley today is rife with parallels to Wall Street, its lessons unlearned. Like Wall Street, it prides itself on its meritocratic culture, arguing that its performance-based orientation will drive capital to the best start-ups. There are few senior women at the top venture capital firms. The industry funds few start-ups run by women. Last year, of the approximately $60 billion that venture capital firms invested, just $1.5 billion went to businesses with female founders.

    One might argue that start-ups run by men just happen to deliver the highest possible returns. The mythology around the industry bolsters this, with venture capitalists boasting of investing in Facebook practically out of the dorm room.

    But that argument doesn’t hold up. Investors in venture capital funds would have been as well off simply investing in the stock market over the past five to 15 years. That’s what I see in reviewing the data from the research firm Cambridge Associates: Investors in the high-risk, high-reward world of start-ups essentially did no better than they could have opening an account at their neighborhood brokerage. What might help those venture capitalists? First Round Capital reports that its investments in companies with a female founder have posted 63 percent better returns than men-only firms.

    Venture capital and Wall Street are both funded by “other people’s money.” Pension funds, endowments, mutual funds and individual investors provide the fuel that enables this sexist, exclusionary behavior. The irony is that so many of these endowments and foundations exist to make the world a fairer place, not to exclude vast segments of the population. Yet because their money is tied up in industries where women’s perspectives, and diversity of viewpoints, aren’t valued on the whole, their causes — and their bottom lines — lose out.

    This moment of ferreting out sexual harassers is a step forward. It also reveals how much work we have to do on the biases that allowed such behavior to flourish.

    This summer, I was in Silicon Valley, pitching for a round of funding for my company. I was the only woman in a room of 18 venture capitalists. A few of the men were engaged, a few were typing on their iPhones, and the lead investor was alternating between peppering me with questions and leaning back in his chair with his arms folded. He challenged my knowledge on digital acquisition, on acquisition costs.

    Fair enough, even if he was being a little prickly. Finally, I noted that our business was planning to hire a few financial advisers. He proceeded to give me chapter and verse on how financial advisers are hard to manage and instructed me on the economics of the financial advisory business.

    I was astonished, because I have managed more financial advisers in my career than probably anyone in the country. And though it’s been years since I have been sexually harassed the way I was at Salomon, I realized in that moment how deep our gender views run, how men are still seen as leaders and women as more junior.

    This man naturally assumed that he knew more about it than I did. It was his ingrained view of women — a view that’s costing all of us.


    Sallie Krawcheck is the chief executive of Ellevest, a digital investment and planning platform for women, and the author of “Own It: The Power of Women at Work.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/o...ing-women.html
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  2. #2
    Some might say this is the woman's first attempt to seize all the jobs from men via the expedient of crying harasser, sticking the man with an unanswerable crime, and getting him tossed out on his rump to create an opening for "diversity."

    Because as we all know, "diversity is our strength."

    Then when your portfolio--overseen by the calorically-advantaged Southeast Asian male of color--is just a drawing of the word "Ekwality" with hearts around it, the world will descend into chaos anyway.


  3. #3
    Whatever, BN.

  4. #4
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    There's still enough jobs to go around, BN. Why do you think women go to college to get Masters degrees if not to have some management positions?
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

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    The cost of devaluing men has been FAR greater.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    The cost of devaluing men has been FAR greater.
    In your opinion. This thread is about one woman's opinion. She went through a lot in the workplace, as have most of us. And most of us will never tell you the filthy stories because it's just too much.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  7. #7
    Well, maybe now that she's gotten that off her chest, perhaps she can just go back to doing her job the best she can. Yeah, I know, there are always gonna be some lunkhead who thinks she's the receptionist... but those without their head firmly wedged up their own butts smelling roses will appreciate her knowledge and skill and treat her accordingly.

    Jerks. They'll always be with us. Complaining doesn't make them stop or go away. There are other ways to handle it.

  8. #8
    It's not about tit for tat. The article gives one woman's experience, that's all.
    Most women of a certain age can relate.
    The worst of it happens in private/semi-private situations, and not in the presence of Gentlemen.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroe View Post
    Whatever, BN.
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    There's still enough jobs to go around, BN. Why do you think women go to college to get Masters degrees if not to have some management positions?
    Call me paranoid if you will, but with the modern culture being what it is, I can see it being possible, and a potential disaster.

    MzKitty, I don't know where you got the notion that there were "enough jobs to go around," but that hasn't been the case for years before now. It's starting to change, sure, but who knows how long that will last? And if the culture continues to advance where "sexual harasser" is the new "witch," you'll likely see it happen where women use it as a weapon against the men around and above them.

  10. #10
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    Women devalued themselves.
    "America is at that awkward stage, to late to work within the system, but to early to shoot the bastards"-- Claire Wolfe

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacknarwhal View Post
    Call me paranoid if you will, but with the modern culture being what it is, I can see it being possible, and a potential disaster.

    MzKitty, I don't know where you got the notion that there were "enough jobs to go around," but that hasn't been the case for years before now. It's starting to change, sure, but who knows how long that will last? And if the culture continues to advance where "sexual harasser" is the new "witch," you'll likely see it happen where women use it as a weapon against the men around and above them.

    Sorry to disappoint you, BN, but there's just not many "Merediths" out there. This movie wasn't true in 1994 and it's not true now. Although it is a very scary work of fiction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_(film)
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Sorry to disappoint you, BN, but there's just not many "Merediths" out there. This movie wasn't true in 1994 and it's not true now. Although it is a very scary work of fiction.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_(film)
    That was 1994. How different are things now? We've already got the Duke Lacrosse case and who knows how many others.

  13. #13
    I have, on occasion, listed here a couple of the things I experienced as a young woman working in the 1970's; often to younger women members of this forum (or on facebook) who seem to have NO IDEA how BAD it used to be.

    I do not find that expecting NOT to have to be fondled on my rear and then kissed by the fry machine by the boss and company owner to be "wanting to get rid of men's jobs."

    Rather, I find it actually rather nice that young women starting out in entry-level work positions don't run into such things as "par for the course" or "the way the world works if you don't like it quit (and starve)."

    And, this woman is correct, ignoring women who have ALREADY QUALIFIED and ARE ALREADY in management positions and not allowing them to do their jobs and/or expecting them to put up with male genitalia on their desks or simulated sex acts while they are on the phone with clients wastes their talent and is a loss for their companies.

    At the very least it is a distraction that men wouldn't tolerate for a moment in the reverse and at worst, many women simply up and quit or move onto other firms that DO appreciate them and take their talent (and training) with them.

    I'm not saying I agree with her on all points, and my perspective of working in high-end financial firms is limited to lower level temporary jobs in the Bay Area and Denver; I simply wasn't there long enough to notice anything like that and thankfully I didn't have those experiences there.

    But even if one believes that most women might be better off caring for the home; at least when their children are small, that is still no reason to "waste" the talents of career women who HAVE to take the training, jumped the hoops and obtained the positions.

    Things have improved since my Great-Aunt came back from driving an ambulance on the Fields of Flanders to find her fiance would be dead by the end of 1918 (the flu) and her hospital employers offered to pay her way through medical school to become a doctor (her job speciality was being upgraded from nurse to physicians only).

    Her first day of class, one of the male teachers of a required course said "I do not believe women should become doctors so no women will ever pass my required course;" it took the intervention of her hospital to get the medical school to take the guy to the woodshed whipping he deserved and she and her four female classmates were among the first doctors graduated from the medical school.

    Today, in some areas, more women then men graduate as physicians; there are pros and cons to that, but it does prove that this sort of waste of human potential as described in the article CAN be sorted and changed but it takes time, effort and the will to do so.
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    And most of us will never tell you the filthy stories because it's just too much.
    Hah! That song has been played SO MUCH that most of us just ignore it now.

    Oh look, the fish tank needs to be cleaned... See ya!

  15. #15
    Also wanted to add, I don't approve of "witchhunts" against men either; some of what is going on currently is disturbing because it is real and was hidden for so long, but some of it does seem to be turning into a witchhunt and acting as if a man's natural smile of approval about your dress and or asking a co-worker for a date is somehow "sexual harassment."

    No, what I experienced (as did my female co-workers) from that boss WAS sexual harassment but saying "gee your hair looks nice today" or "would you like to have dinner with me this evening" is not; unless in the second case a polite no is ignored and the co-worker crosses the line and refuses to stop asking, following you around or whatever (and women can do this to men too).
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    Hah! That song has been played SO MUCH that most of us just ignore it now.

    Oh look, the fish tank needs to be cleaned... See ya!
    You don't know, and with your attitude you never will.

    As I said, if I told you half of what I personally know happened back then, you would throw up. At the very least.

    You weren't there. It's all about you though.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    Hah! That song has been played SO MUCH that most of us just ignore it now.

    Oh look, the fish tank needs to be cleaned... See ya!
    Until YOUR daughter calls you on the phone in tears (or your wife, or your niece etc) maybe it gets repeated so much because those of us over 50 LIVED it, and most of us DO HAVE to work a paying job at some point in our lives; even if the goal is marriage and family when the time is right.

    Enjoy the fishtank...
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  18. #18
    I wouldn't have thought common decency was too much to ask for.
    Eye opening, for sure.
    Signing off this thread. Way too pissed.

  19. #19
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    I worked for a Mortgage Banker in the early 90's. Out of 150 processors I was one of two men (I was the only straight one). The rest were women.

    I experienced verbal arguments between women that were far more violent/profane than any exchanges I ever saw between men (if men had talked that way to each other it would have become physical).

    They are not the weaker sex. The sexual banter was on par of what men did. Men and Women are different, but the same. They can be viscous. Don't kid yourself.

    Viva la difference.
    Thy will be done...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    In your opinion. This thread is about one woman's opinion. She went through a lot in the workplace, as have most of us. And most of us will never tell you the filthy stories because it's just too much.
    This^^^ Oh what the hell I have one for you. I used to work in a funeral home, it was a short lived job because the Owners dip shit brother in law wanted me to have sex with him and a corpse in the morgue and I told him to go **** off. Owner was within ear shot, bellowed that I couldn't talk "to the family in that manner" and fired me on the spot.

    Dip shit brother in law was arrested several years later for necrophilia.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacajawea View Post
    Well, maybe now that she's gotten that off her chest, perhaps she can just go back to doing her job the best she can. Yeah, I know, there are always gonna be some lunkhead who thinks she's the receptionist... but those without their head firmly wedged up their own butts smelling roses will appreciate her knowledge and skill and treat her accordingly.

    Jerks. They'll always be with us. Complaining doesn't make them stop or go away. There are other ways to handle it.
    I don't that she's complaining so much as outing the bastards that treated her like sh*t. Notice she didn't name names, and I can understand not doing so, but it is important for young men and women who want to make their way up the ladder that said ladder is occupied with a lot of predators.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    This^^^ Oh what the hell I have one for you. I used to work in a funeral home, it was a short lived job because the Owners dip shit brother in law wanted me to have sex with him and a corpse in the morgue and I told him to go **** off. Owner was within ear shot, bellowed that I couldn't talk "to the family in that manner" and fired me on the spot.

    Dip shit brother in law was arrested several years later for necrophilia.



    Oh dear God. That one is so bad.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    Hah! That song has been played SO MUCH that most of us just ignore it now.

    Oh look, the fish tank needs to be cleaned... See ya!
    See post #20, and I have about three dozen more stories along that vein as well... If I told you all of them I doubt you'd ever sleep well at night again, and it would certainly change the way you look at the average man or woman. I'd say a good five or six people, out of ten, are predators to some degree.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post


    Oh dear God. That one is so bad.
    That's mild in comparison to some of the sh*t I've endured in my life.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melodi View Post
    unless in the second case a polite no is ignored and the co-worker crosses the line and refuses to stop asking, following you around or whatever (and women can do this to men too).
    I've witnessed women doing this other female co-workers, and men doing this to male co-workers as well! Again it's ALL about power and control.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerkom View Post
    I worked for a Mortgage Banker in the early 90's. Out of 150 processors I was one of two men (I was the only straight one). The rest were women.

    I experienced verbal arguments between women that were far more violent/profane than any exchanges I ever saw between men (if men had talked that way to each other it would have become physical).

    They are not the weaker sex. The sexual banter was on par of what men did. Men and Women are different, but the same. They can be viscous. Don't kid yourself.

    Viva la difference.
    I don't give female predators a pass, ever! And sexual banter at work should be off limits no matter what the gender base at work consists of.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    In your opinion. This thread is about one woman's opinion. She went through a lot in the workplace, as have most of us. And most of us will never tell you the filthy stories because it's just too much.
    Yes, we've all had our crosses to bear. Dealing with this crap in the workplace was always just one of them.

    I never worked on Wallstreet (big surprise!) but this brings up memories of a summer I spent as a college girl, working for a neighbor of mine who managed the service dept and gas station at the local Monkey Wards. (My usual job there was in the receiving dept. and the loading dock, but they had no work for me.) He asked me if I wanted the job, and I said heck yes. Now I knew what was up - not being completely stupid. A young blond college girl washing windshields and checking oil was a good thing for business. Personally, I loved the job - mostly outside, chatting with customers, I was comfortably knowledgeable about general automotive "stuff" - so a total no-brainer, and I could work as much as I wanted.

    The guys I worked with in front were younger (high school age), sort of in awe and very sweet - no problem. The guys in the back at the service bays were the ones who "tested" me. A few comments here and there, some physical "wandering", etc. and I knew to keep from getting alone with anyone. I made myself VERY clear a few times, and that was it. The boys in front had their eye out for my welfare, and before I left, all of those guys including the mechanics, were like brothers to me. Turned out to be one of the most fun jobs I've ever had.

    It still comes down to keeping in a safe zone and never alone, trusting your instincts about "creeps", demanding and giving mutual respect and to be treated like a lady, then nipping things in the bud as soon as the crap starts. Frankly, this stuff is human nature, and I don't think it will ever change completely as long as there are men and women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalknTrot View Post
    Yes, we've all had our crosses to bear. Dealing with this crap in the workplace was always just one of them.

    I never worked on Wallstreet (big surprise!) but this brings up memories of a summer I spent as a college girl, working for a neighbor of mine who managed the service dept and gas station at the local Monkey Wards. (My usual job there was in the receiving dept. and the loading dock, but they had no work for me.) He asked me if I wanted the job, and I said heck yes. Now I knew what was up - not being completely stupid. A young blond college girl washing windshields and checking oil was a good thing for business. Personally, I loved the job - mostly outside, chatting with customers, I was comfortably knowledgeable about general automotive "stuff" - so a total no-brainer, and I could work as much as I wanted.

    The guys I worked with in front were younger (high school age) and sort of in awe and very sweet - no problem. The guys in the back at the service bays were the ones who "tested" me. A few comments here and there, some physical "wandering", etc. and I knew to keep from getting alone with anyone. I made myself VERY clear a few times, and that was it. The boys in front had their eye out for my welfare, and before I left, all of those guys including the mechanics, were like brothers to me. Turned out to be one of the most fun jobs I've ever had.

    It still comes down to keeping in a safe zone and never alone, trusting your instincts about "creeps", demanding and giving mutual respect and to be treated like a lady, then nipping things in the bud as soon as the crap starts. Frankly, this stuff is human nature, and I don't think it will ever change completely as long as there are men and women.
    So you worked with a couple of jerks, that when schooled to not be a jerk towards you actually listened. That's a world of difference when working with a predator who takes your "no" as raising the bar to take it to the next level of harassment and eventually sexual abuse. The creep I worked with made it absolutely clear that in order to keep my job I'd be having sex with him and a corpse in the morgue. That's when I told him to **** off and that's when I got fired.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    So you worked with a couple of jerks, that when schooled to not be a jerk towards you actually listened. That's a world of difference when working with a predator who takes your "no" as raising the bar to take it to the next level of harassment and eventually sexual abuse. The creep I worked with made it absolutely clear that in order to keep my job I'd be having sex with him and a corpse in the morgue. That's when I told him to **** off and that's when I got fired.
    Yup, that's what happens sometimes. I had a couple of jobs where I thought I'd have to walk, and I would have. It isn't right, but it just is. Luckily, I was always able to come up with some sort of leverage to cool them off. The worst one was a total azzhole, but I knew his wife and daughter would believe me - and so did he.

  30. #30
    To my knowledge - this stuff STILL goes on. Saying it's "bad" and "shouldn't happen" won't stop the worst types of predators. That's why I taught my girls to stand up for themselves and defend themselves, if necessary. Nothing is going to make the world safe for women, from these scum.

    Oddly enough, I find less of that crap in a rural community and when the guys do try to "play" and see just what I'm made of - when they find out, they look like they've just let off a hook. And they never do crap like that with me again. To say I'm a fan of Lagertha's approach to guys who cross her... well, you get the idea if you've seen Vikings.

    On the other hand, I'm willing to forgive simple male attention/infractions and won't bust their balls over being human - as long as the behavior immediately changes.

  31. #31
    The true shame is devaluing white males of european descent (who created civilization infrastructure almost in total) and replacing them with others.

    It's OK to be a white male.
    Dosadi

    III


    My family & clan are my country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroe View Post
    I wouldn't have thought common decency was too much to ask for.
    Eye opening, for sure.
    Signing off this thread. Way too pissed.

    Yes, they still have to invalidate women's experiences.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Yes, they still have to invalidate women's experiences.
    It's called little dick syndrome, most that do these sorts of things have to talk tough because in fact when a larger group of males they are in fact betas.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    It's called little dick syndrome, most that do these sorts of things have to talk tough because in fact when a larger group of males they are in fact betas.
    Well, you have to be able to at least listen and sympathize. If you can't do that, then who are you really?
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Well, you have to be able to at least listen and sympathize. If you can't do that, then who are you really?

    A narcissist? But yes listening and empathizing with others is a good trait to possess.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  36. #36
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    I can't imagine that anyone had a worse experience than someone, who was the only woman in her class with an engineering degree, working with a bunch of Vietnam vets at a government contractor type company in the late 70's. You DO NOT whine about sexual harassment you fight back. The guys with their Morgana posters (like triple Dolly Parton boobs) kinda backed down when I started putting up centerfolds from Playgirl and they knew they didn't measure up. It was just a stupid game but they knew I did not play. What really has me upset is the way women and men have let the whole relationship thing go to shit. I did not go into the job thing to put men down, but after a child and a divorce I had to provide for my family because the stupid man I married did not live up to his commitment. You do what you have to do. Relationships mean someone gives what they do best and someone else gives what they do best. Sorry men, we are not just play toys. We make your children in our bodies and take care of them and for that we should be taken care of. Just saying. If you don't want that commitment don't f..king get married or f..k around. Women have been so down grading themselves into sexual objects and that is just what men and the gov wanted. The gov decided that they wanted both mom and dad to work so they could tax both and plus when the kids went to daycare the gov could also tax that work. Mothers and children are the losers. Men also lost in the deal. Yes they got the cute play toys they wanted, that also brought in a paycheck, but they lost the wives and children they could have had.

  37. #37
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    This is the reason my name has always been "marsh" on the forum. It is another reason quite a few people were surprised when I finally made a comment indicating I was a woman. I have always found that my ideas and writings have been given more weight if people thought I was a man. It is why I always wore a business suit at county Board meetings - to appear more business like and authoritarian.
    "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell

  38. #38
    She needs to make me a sandwich.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeSpace View Post
    She needs to make me a sandwich.
    Sure.
    Attached Images
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeSpace View Post
    She needs to make me a sandwich.
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post

    Sure.
    That seems to be a proper response!
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

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