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GUNS/RLTD Feds issue 4,000 orders to seize guns from people who failed background checks
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  1. #1
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    Feds issue 4,000 orders to seize guns from people who failed background checks

    Yeah....Lots of luck on that Feds
    Contrary to the article I don't think the gun industry is that powerful. It's the alliance of the people who buy those guns that is powerful.
    There are going to be a lot that were either traded, sold, or lost in that all to common boating accident


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...cks/901017001/

    Exclusive: Feds issue 4,000 orders to seize guns from people who failed background checks

    Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY Published 2:04 p.m. ET Dec. 4, 2017 | Updated 2:12 p.m. ET Dec. 4, 2017
    A USA TODAY review finds thousands of guns were sold to people who should have failed their background checks. Now, federal agents have the dangerous jobs of trying to get those guns back. USA TODAY




    (Photo: Elaine Thompson, AP)


    CONNECTTWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE

    WASHINGTON— Federal authorities sought to take back guns from thousands of people the background check system should have blocked from buying weapons because they had criminal records, mental health issues or other problems that would disqualify them.

    A USA TODAY review found that the FBI issued more than 4,000 requests last year for agents from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives to retrieve guns from prohibited buyers.
    It's the largest number of such retrieval requests in 10 years, according to bureau records – an especially striking statistic after revelations that a breakdown in the background check system allowed a troubled Air Force veteran to buy a rifle later used to kill 26 worshipers at a Texas church last month.

    The FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) vets millions of gun purchase transactions every year. But the thousands of gun seizure requests highlight persistent problems in a system where analysts must complete background checks within three days of the proposed purchase. If the background check is not complete within the 72-hour time limit, federal law allows the sale to go forward. ATF agents are asked to take back the guns if the FBI later finds these sales should have been denied.

    More: Black Friday posts new single day record for gun checks at more than 200,000
    More: Texas church shooting: Background check breakdown highlights federal gun record problems

    In addition to the public safety risks, the ATF agents tasked with retrievingthe banned weapons from unauthorized gun owners across the country are exposed to potentially dangerous confrontations.

    "These are people who shouldn't have weapons in the first place, and it just takes one to do something that could have tragic consequences," said David Chipman, a former ATF official who helped oversee the firearm retrieval program. "You don't want ATF to stand for 'after the fact.'"
    It was not immediately clear how many gun seizure requests agents successfully executed last year or how many weapons were ultimately recovered. Since multiple firearms can be purchased in a single transaction, the actual number of guns that should have been banned could be even higher.
    Chipman, now a senior policy adviser for the Giffords Law Center which advocates for more gun restrictions, called the retrieval process "uniquely dangerous."

    Stephen Morris, a former assistant FBI director, said FBI examiners who review gun purchasers' backgrounds also recognize the risks.
    "They are very aware of the inherent risk to law enforcement officers when they (seek) a firearm retrieval," said Morris, who recently oversaw the bureau's background check operation based in West Virginia. "They feel tremendous pressure to make a determination" within the three-day period.

    Review of the gun vetting system

    The sudden spike in gun retrieval directives is attributed in part to the record 27.5 million background checks fielded by NICS examiners last year.
    Yet the increase is notable in the wake of last month's decision by Attorney General Jeff Sessions to launch a sweeping review of the vetting system after a reporting breakdown allowed a troubled Air Force veteran to purchase a rifle. Devin Kelley later used the rifle in the Nov. 5 massacre at a Texas church.

    More: Sessions orders review of firearms tracking system
    More: Texas shooter allowed to buy weapons after Air Force failed to flag him

    Air Force officials have acknowledged that the service failed to transmit a record of Kelley's court martial for domestic assault to the FBI that would have made him ineligible for the 2016 purchase of the rifle. And on Tuesday, the Air Force said a preliminary review concluded that the reporting error was part of a broader problem within the service, indicating that "similar reporting lapses occurred at other locations" within the Air Force.

    The Kelley case highlights longstanding problems with government databases that are rife with incomplete or inadequate record submissions. Morris said that NICS continues to depend on those databases that largely rely on voluntary record submissions from law enforcement agencies, the military and mental health authorities to guard against unauthorized firearm purchases.

    Mixed success rate


    The government's success record when it comes toretrieving guns that were improperly purchasedhas also been mixed.
    The ATF declined to provide information on the 4,170 gun purchases the FBI referred for seizure last year. They reflect a substantial increase from 2,892 requests the previous year.
    The FBI said the ATF is not required to report back on the status of the retrieval efforts.
    Yet in 2004, the Justice Department's inspector general found that the ATF's retrieval efforts were plagued by staffing shortages, technological inefficiencies and a general lack of urgency that resulted in recovery delays of up to a year.

    "ATF agents did not consider most of the prohibited persons who had obtained guns to be dangerous and therefore did not consider it a priority to retrieve the firearm promptly,'' report concluded.

    A separate inspector general's report last year found marked improvement. Of 125 transactions examined between 2008 and 2014, investigators found that the ATF recovered 116 – or 93% – of the firearms.

    Of the nine outstanding cases, five buyers could not be located. Two had already re-sold the firearms. One case was turned over to local authorities. And another was not pursued because the agency "did not have the resources to retrieve the firearm," the report found.

    Powerful gun industry

    Larry Keane, general counsel for the firearm industry trade association National Shooting Sports Foundation, noted that the FBI's seizure directives represent only a small portion in the flood of of transactions that the bureau has been processing in recent years. On Black Friday alone, FBI examiners fielded more than 200,000 background check requests, a one-day record for the system.
    "What we support are more resources for the NICS operation to process the volume of requests," Keane said.

    Keane said there has been no discussion in the industry about extending the three-day time limit for completing background checks, adding that more than 90% of all checks are completed almost immediately after the request is forwarded to the FBI. He said less than 1% of all firearms transactions are later referred to the ATF for retrieval.

    "We don't really see much reason for changing" the three-day time limit, Keane said, adding that some gun dealers elect not to transfer weapons until the FBI completes the check, even if it takes longer than three days.

    However, the former ATF official Chipman called the 72-hour provision "reckless" and a concession to "the powerful gun industry that nobody wants to irritate."

    For now, much of the attention on gun policy by lawmakers has focused on boosting compliance with current reporting requirements to the FBI.

    Last month, a bipartisan group of senators led by Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas introduced legislation that would penalize federal agencies that fail to properly report relevant criminal and mental health records and provides incentives to states to improve their overall reporting to the NICS repository. The bill also directs more federal funding to the accurate reporting of domestic violence records.

    “For years agencies and states haven’t complied with the law, failing to upload these critical records without consequence,” Cornyn said. "Just one record that’s not properly reported can lead to tragedy."
    Last edited by TerryK; 12-05-2017 at 08:53 AM.
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  2. #2
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    ?

    I'm missing something here. When I bought my shotgun, my rifle and my handguns, and this was waay back in 1989, in Oregon to boot, you didn't get to take anything out of the shop until the FBI and Oregon state patrol background check cleared. As in, I am standing in the shop, he puts the info in the system, it rattles around a bit, and then I get an okay, or not okay.

    Since this is the case, what "they" are saying is either other information was added to the database for the individual, like a domestic abuse conviction for example, or whatever. Well, they are not then saying the person flunked the background check. They are saying the background check data, for whatever reason, was not accurate, and because it was not accurate the person can't legally buy a weapon.

    I can't think of anything you can do about disqualifying information being added to the background check data AFTER a person legally buys a firearm, with the reason being it was legal for him/her to do that at the time they were in the gun store or gun show.

    Oregon has a two week waiting period to buy any handgun, specifically to deal with any info lag.

    Well, if they let a Charles Manson clone buy a weapon because they didn't get the fact he was in a psycho ward for the last five years, it just proves "gun control" never works.
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  3. #3
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    Terry, can you clean up the article’s formatting? It’s awful.

    Thanks!

  4. #4
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    Regarding "Oregon has a two week waiting period to buy any handgun".
    That is not true. In Oregon, if you pass the background check, and pay, you leave with handgun.

    A couple years ago they outlawed the FTF (face to face) transaction of firearms,
    you must now go through FFL for private party to private party.

  5. #5
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    Oregon passed a two week waiting period for any handgun purchase in an exchange with Oregon gun owners to get a concealed handgun permit statewide. It is now perfectly legal to get a concealed handgun permit in Portland, a bastion of anti gun radicals.

    When you walk in, if you pass the background check, which if you have no criminal record is a cinch, then you can walk out with any gun you buy. However, if there is a glitch, which has been known to happen, or the FBI or Oregon State Patrol system is down, or there is a flag on you, well then they tell you to come back in two weeks while the situation is sorted out.

    Actually, the new gun laws have pretty much eliminated private sales, estate sales etc. You can still go to a gun show, but in Multnomah county at least, even though the gun shows are held at the Expo center owned by the county, they mess with you something fierce. Even though the Expo center is a place full of guns for sale, it is ILLEGAL for you to carry your weapon into it, I think even if you have a concealed handgun permit. The city council of Portland, and the Multnomah county officials are rabid liberals, loathe and despise gun owners and will screw with them every chance they get. Fortunately, as part of Vera Katz's "deal" she traded concealed handgun permits unable to be abused at the city and county level, in order to get a two week background check period.

    It is more accurate to say it is an up to two week waiting period. If you can get it down in five minutes, that is okay. But if you can't Portland will absolutely make you wait two weeks before you pick it up. The days of going to an estate sale and buying some guy's deer rifle without going through a background check are gone.
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  6. #6
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    But I thought no records are kept...
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hognutz View Post
    But I thought no records are kept...
    ^^^^^^
    This

  8. #8
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    I believe during the background check the feds can put up to a three day hold on the transaction. If the feds do not deny (with just cause) in that time frame then the sale can be legally completed. I have to assume these 4000 guns fall into that category. Just the feds did not get the info fast enough to stop the sale after the legal three day max wait time. So now well after the fact they are going out to retrieve the guns. Do they pay for the guns or just take them with no compensation?

  9. #9
    They're never going to have "perfect" control over the data process. And I don't feel it's right for them to make THEIR problem, a problem for the millions of responsible gun purchasers/owners.

  10. #10
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    And if they make a “mistake” and come to your house instead and confiscate your guns, what are going to do? It costs a lot of money to fight the government.
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see it's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mourningdove View Post
    And if they make a “mistake” and come to your house instead and confiscate your guns, what are going to do? It costs a lot of money to fight the government.
    Well, I’m sure you have nothing to worry about because A) you own no guns, and B) chances are you’d provide, um, “personal favors” to the JBTs, cuz as a liberal, armed gooberment stooges make you and the rest of your deranged kind moist...

  12. #12
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    I want to hear an answer to Hognutz's observation: they're not supposed to be keeping records, so once the background check has been passed, how does anyone "officially" know that a particular person has a gun?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I want to hear an answer to Hognutz's observation: they're not supposed to be keeping records, so once the background check has been passed, how does anyone "officially" know that a particular person has a gun?
    The guy typing in the info maybe remembered all of it? With only a million checks per month that should not be a problem.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hognutz View Post
    But I thought no records are kept...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I want to hear an answer to Hognutz's observation: they're not supposed to be keeping records, so once the background check has been passed, how does anyone "officially" know that a particular person has a gun?
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwall View Post
    The guy typing in the info maybe remembered all of it? With only a million checks per month that should not be a problem.
    The assumption here is apparently tht those checks passed.

    If they did NOT pass then the records would be sitting there waiting closure....
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I want to hear an answer to Hognutz's observation: they're not supposed to be keeping records, so once the background check has been passed, how does anyone "officially" know that a particular person has a gun?
    Key part of your observation - once the background check is passed. In these cases, the NICS didn't provide a positive Yes/No, so the query was "in suspense". After a three-day period, if the NICS does not respond, the system defaults to a user-friendly stance and the dealer can issue the firearm. In any case, the ATF must then request specific information from the FFL - which is then supplied from a requested copy of the 4473. The confiscations (here worded as a "retrieval") would be for those that it has been determined should have had a positive NO returned on the initial query.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hognutz View Post
    But I thought no records are kept...
    But all guns ARE registered. You can count on that. Think the Government won't?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Cobra View Post
    But all guns ARE registered. You can count on that. Think the Government won't?
    Firearms are not registered, but there is a record of who bought what. The retailer is required by law to retain firearm records in perpetuity. Whenever a firearm is used in a crime, the policing agency runs the numbers in the ATF data base and the retailer who sold the gun is found. This retailer is then paid a visit and their records searched as to who bought the gun. If the retailer retires or goes out of business and closes shop, then those records must be sent to the ATF. Whenever you sell a gun to an individual, it is wise to keep your own record just in case that person commits a crime ten years later with your gun.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hognutz View Post
    But I thought no records are kept...
    Records of those who pass are supposed to be destroyed.
    All they know is basically a name, DOB, SS number and if it's a long gun or handgun

    Records of those who fail can be kept for future use.
    They have 72 hours to deny the sale or the transaction goes through.

    If after the 72 hours they find a disqualification they know who has "a firearm", but they don't know the serial number, make or model.

    They would then go to the dealer to see the 4473 form he has on file to find the needed information.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I want to hear an answer to Hognutz's observation: they're not supposed to be keeping records, so once the background check has been passed, how does anyone "officially" know that a particular person has a gun?
    They aren't taking any guns from anyone who "passed".

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Cobra View Post
    But all guns ARE registered. You can count on that. Think the Government won't?
    That myth gets corrected on nearly every gun thread.
    There is no Federal gun registration.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyper View Post
    Records of those who pass are supposed to be destroyed.
    All they know is basically a name, DOB, SS number and if it's a long gun or handgun

    Records of those who fail can be kept for future use.
    They have 72 hours to deny the sale or the transaction goes through.

    If after the 72 hours they find a disqualification they know who has "a firearm", but they don't know the serial number, make or model.

    They would then go to the dealer to see the 4473 form he has on file to find the needed information.
    Discovering who bought what is a two step process which prevents a lone policeman from interfering with our rights. Very similar to requiring a judge to provide a search warrant. It's not foolproof but it's better than registration.

  22. #22
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    Snyper disabused me of the misconceptions I had WRT the 4473 forms and what info gets called in to NICS. I had no idea, So was grateful for the info.

  23. #23
    That myth gets corrected on nearly every gun thread.
    There is no Federal gun registration.
    BS

    Tell us about your full auto Uzi.

  24. #24
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    Class lll is an exception

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    BS

    Tell us about your full auto Uzi.
    That only applies to a limited number of firearms.

    There haven't been any new ones added to that list and sold to civilians since May, 1986 unless you count suppressors, which are considered "firearms" under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

    This thread isn't about NFA items though, since they aren't run through a simple NICS check

  26. #26
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    Jeeeze...

    There ya go, sittin' there with actual FACTS in hand.

    Y'know that's not fair here, right??
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  27. #27
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    They will go after all drug & alcohol users........

    Hawaii seems to be going after medical pot guns now as well
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyper View Post
    That myth gets corrected on nearly every gun thread.
    There is no Federal gun registration.
    You can't change my decision.
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  29. #29
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    Feds will tear your place apart looking for any and all guns. If they do go after people and take their gun away from them.
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  31. #31
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    Guess they have to "practice" somehow confiscating guns. Police will use their military gear.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Cobra View Post
    You can't change my decision.
    I am a licensed manufacturer of firearms including machine guns and suppressors. I have been for over ten years and was a cop for 20. I am glad you know more about this than I do so I can learn the way it "Really is". Now all I have to do is figure out how the feds sneak in my shop when I am not looking and acquire the make model and serial numbers of guns I sell to my customers so they can "Register" the individual guns to the customer. I dont call in this info on background checks and it otherwise never leaves my shop so "They" must sneak in somehow and steal the info to "Register" the guns.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thinwater View Post
    I am a licensed manufacturer of firearms including machine guns and suppressors. I have been for over ten years and was a cop for 20. I am glad you know more about this than I do so I can learn the way it "Really is". Now all I have to do is figure out how the feds sneak in my shop when I am not looking and acquire the make model and serial numbers of guns I sell to my customers so they can "Register" the individual guns to the customer. I dont call in this info on background checks and it otherwise never leaves my shop so "They" must sneak in somehow and steal the info to "Register" the guns.
    Thanks Thinwater.

    Wouldn't the Feds need specific warrants in each case they are investigating?

    They can't simply issue a blanket search warrant for all FFL paper, can they?

    Unless, of course, the FFL is being investigating for supplying weapons illegally which doesn't seem to be the case here.

    Uh, but then again, what if the Feds are ILLEGALLY keeping copies of those forms somewhere?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Cobra View Post
    Feds will tear your place apart looking for any and all guns. If they do go after people and take their gun away from them.
    It will never happen, and for many reasons both practical and constitutional. But along with EEEEEE EMMMMM PEEEEEE, “THEY’RE GOING TO TAKE EVERYONE’S GUNS!!” is a Doomer porn perennial favorite.

  35. #35
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    In this case or cases, we are talking about with the BATF going after the 4000 prohibited persons who bought guns, the feds would seize ALL guns from these people because they are prohibited people. I assume there would be NO reimbursement for any guns taken. In some cases I would also assume the person would be arrested for either illegal possession of firearms or lying on the 4473 form.

  36. #36
    When a dealership closes/goes out of business/etc. the hardcopy 4473 forms do not go into the trash burner.

    They end up with the BATFE.

    Then they do not go on a shelf to reside forever.

    You can figure out the rest of the story without much effort.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    When a dealership closes/goes out of business/etc. the hardcopy 4473 forms do not go into the trash burner.
    I plead the fifth on this one....

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by vestige View Post
    When a dealership closes/goes out of business/etc. the hardcopy 4473 forms do not go into the trash burner.

    They end up with the BATFE.

    Then they do not go on a shelf to reside forever.

    You can figure out the rest of the story without much effort.
    In my earlier post I stated the records must be stored in perpetuity. I'm in error, according to Wiki, the law requires storage for only 20 years. If they do go to the federals, it will be for perpetuity.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandune View Post
    In my earlier post I stated the records must be stored in perpetuity. I'm in error, according to Wiki, the law requires storage for only 20 years. If they do go to the federals, it will be for perpetuity.
    So what you're saying is that any good FFL holder should plan to RETIRE 20 years before he plans to EXPIRE so he can throw the 4473s in the FIRE? Right?

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Cobra View Post
    You can't change my decision.
    I'm not trying to change anything at all.
    I just pointed out the facts.
    You can ignore them if you like and it makes no difference to me.

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