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ECON JPMorgan's Dimon says bitcoin 'is a fraud'
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  1. #1
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    21 JPMorgan's Dimon says bitcoin 'is a fraud'

    You know, I read this article twice, just to make sure it wasn't intentional satire. Some of the things said made me think of pots and kettles and the color black.


    http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...-is-fraud.html

    JPMorgan's Dimon says bitcoin 'is a fraud'

    Published September 13, 2017
    Business Leaders
    Reuters

    Bitcoin "is a fraud" and will blow up, Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, said on Tuesday.

    Speaking at a bank investor conference in New York, Dimon said, "The currency isn't going to work. You can't have a business where people can invent a currency out of thin air and think that people who are buying it are really smart." [I'm holding my tongue, not going to say a word.]

    Dimon said that if any JPMorgan traders were trading the crypto-currency, "I would fire them in a second, for two reasons: It is against our rules and they are stupid, and both are dangerous."

    Dimon's comments come as the bitcoin, a virtual currency not backed by any government, has more than quadrupled in value since December to more than $4,100.

    Bitcoin is a digital currency that enables individuals to transfer value to each other and pay for goods and services bypassing banks and the mainstream financial system.

    While banks have largely steered clear of bitcoin since it emerged following the financial crisis, the virtual currency has a range of people who support it, including technology enthusiasts, liberterians skeptical of government monetary policy and speculators attracted by its price swings.

    "Like it or not, people want exposure to bitcoin," Edward Tilly, chairman and CEO of exchange group CBOE Holdings, said at the same conference.

    CBOE has applied with U.S. regulators to launch a bitcoin futures contract and a bitcoin exchange traded fund on its venues.

    Any good trade is started with a difference of opinion, Tilly added. "So Jamie can be on the short side and the issuers and those trading in physical can be on the long side, and it sounds like we have a great trade.Ē

    Dimon may also be on the other side of another bitcoin trade closer to home.

    At another conference about two hours later, Dimon said that one of his daughters had bought some bitcoin.

    "It went up and she thinks she's a genius now," Dimon said at the CNBC Institutional Investor Delivering Alpha Conference.

    "WORSE THAN TULIP BULBS"

    Banks and other financial institutions have been concerned over bitcoin's early association with online crime and money laundering.

    The supply of bitcoin is meant to be limited to 21 million, but there are clones of the virtual currency in circulation which have made the market for it more volatile.

    "It is worse than tulips bulbs," Dimon said, referring to a famous market bubble from the 1600s.

    JPMorgan and many of its competitors, however, have invested millions of dollars in blockchain, the technology that tracks bitcoin transactions. Blockchain is a shared ledger of transactions maintained by a network of computers on the internet.

    Dimon said such uses will roll out over coming years as it is adapted to different business lines.

    Financial institutions are hoping blockchain can be adapted to simplify and lower the costs of processes such as securities settlement, loan trading and international money transfers.

    Dimon predicted big losses for bitcoin buyers. "Don't ask me to short it. It could be at $20,000 before this happens, but it will eventually blow up." he said.

    "Honestly, I am just shocked that anyone can't see it for what it is."

    Bitcoinís price fell as much as 4 percent following Dimon's comments and was last trading at $4,164. Rumors that the Chinese government is planning to ban trading of virtual currencies on domestic exchanges has weighed on bitcoin recently.

    "It feels like we are in the midst of a negative news cycle, but even considering all this, we are still trading above $4,000." said John Spallanzani, chief macro strategist at GFI Group.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur

  2. #2
    That's funny. Bitcoin says DIMON is a fraud. And so do plenty of other people!

  3. #3
    I promise to pay attention to a major bankster when they tell me something that they can't control and manipulate is a fraud.

    To big to fail banksters need a big heapin' helpin' of fail.
    Dosadi

    III


    My family & clan are my country.

  4. #4
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    Bitcoin is as much a fraud as FRNs. The difference is that JPM chooses to trade in FRNs. Follow the "money."



    At its most basic, ALL forms of exchange other than direct barter are frauds, and "made up out of thin air." Why should I accept pieces of paper for my labor? Why should vendors accept pieces of paper for their goods? It really boggles the mind if you think about it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Olson View Post
    Bitcoin is as much a fraud as FRNs. The difference is that JPM chooses to trade in FRNs. Follow the "money."



    At its most basic, ALL forms of exchange other than direct barter are frauds, and "made up out of thin air." Why should I accept pieces of paper for my labor? Why should vendors accept pieces of paper for their goods? It really boggles the mind if you think about it.
    I know!
    Qui tacet consentire videtur

  6. #6
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    Ihis is a first! I find myself in complete agreement with a statement by Jamie Dimon!
    If at first you don't secede, try, try again!

  7. #7
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    LOL...JPM doesn't like Bitcoin...
    Asking a banker about Bitcoin is like asking a mailman about email in 1993...

    If that's not a buy sign, I don't know what is...

    o)<

    mike

    black is white...

  8. #8
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    Sharing a laugh with you all. He opened a can of worms with that, as you point out. What isn't a fraud, Jamie?

    These are words that will be regretted, no doubt.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by almost ready View Post
    Sharing a laugh with you all. He opened a can of worms with that, as you point out. What isn't a fraud, Jamie?

    These are words that will be regretted, no doubt.
    Begging to be memed! (Is memed a word?)
    Qui tacet consentire videtur

  10. #10
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    CEO of Kodak says digital photography has no future...



    o)<

    mike
    black is white...

  11. #11
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    If the big banks are against it then it must be good.
    "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." ~ Frederic Bastiilt

    "Duty is ours; results are God's."

  12. #12
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    Hey Jamie,

    FRN's are the REAL FRAUD!

    ..created out of thin air, they're the ultimate CONFIDENCE GAME run by banksters & their money market surrogates with the approval of governments!

    History is an excellent predictor of the FRN's future:
    ..another failed medium of exchange created & run by the elite nanking global cartel for their benefit that will CRASH & BURN!
    ďThe great enemy of truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.Ē
    John F. Kennedy

  13. #13
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    FRNs are not just a fraudulent currency; it's also toxic.

    FRNs are promissory notes, which means a lien is attached to everything that's purchased with an FRN. As an example, when you pay off your mortage with FRNs, it means that the creditor of the FRN (the Federal Reserve, in this case) has a lien on your property.

    This is described in much greater detail in this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439233616/



    Not only is FRN a toxic currency, but we're required (by legal tender laws) to use it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker View Post
    FRNs are not just a fraudulent currency; it's also toxic.

    FRNs are promissory notes, which means a lien is attached to everything that's purchased with an FRN. As an example, when you pay off your mortage with FRNs, it means that the creditor of the FRN (the Federal Reserve, in this case) has a lien on your property.

    This is described in much greater detail in this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439233616/



    Not only is FRN a toxic currency, but we're required (by legal tender laws) to use it.
    Begs the question, who are "they"?
    "His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect, His eyes grey clear. He came from racial lines which had blue eyes and golden hair. This granted unlimited freedom provoked the Jews, Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews." http://www.thenazareneway.com/likene...ur_saviour.htm

  15. #15
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    "They" make the 1% people look like sharecroppers by comparison...

  16. #16
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    No one likes competition from Fiat (fake) money.
    Fly one of the best airlines in the USA with great onboard service and fast WiFi. JetBlue Airways. Fly from Long Beach International Airport. https://jetblue.com/ Low fares from Long Beach: https://www.airfarewatchdog.com/chea...location%2CASC

  17. #17
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    JPMorgan should know fraud when they see it. They've institutionalized fraud since long before most people alive today were even born. Whenever and wherever there is financial shenanigans, JPMorgan has been (and still is) almost ALWAYS involved at some level. Heck, they were there at Jekyll Island when the Federal Reserve was created!

    As I like to say, if JPMorgan isn't the financial anti-Christ, they're at the very least one of the financial anti-Christ's chief minions.

  18. #18
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    o)<

    mike
    black is white...

  19. #19
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    Dimon is a crook, not just a fraud.

    You can't have a business where people can invent a currency out of thin air and think that people who are buying it are really smart.

    That business model has worked very well for the private bank known as the Federal Reserve.......
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTemplar View Post
    If the big banks are against it then it must be good.
    The "Big Banks" have been buying up as much Bitcoin as they can get their grubby hands on... They know it is the future of money.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkelsteinsmom View Post
    Begs the question, who are "they"?
    This.

    This is the only question that the board ought to be focused on. What if there was one small group hiding behind the curtains that owned the currency, the politicians, the media and the banks? And what if they had an agenda that didn't include the White Race?

    (There is and they do)

  22. #22
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    The Federal Reserve is a child of the Bank of England, where this whole con got started before the birth of the FUSA. Alexander Hamilton was its major proponent here at the beginning.

    "They" are banksters, first and foremost. They used to be referred to in this country as "the money power," and the term still fits.

    Know the history and the present will be clearer..........

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
    All Wars Are Bankers' Wars R/T 43:33

    A couple of errors, but pretty much straightforward history you should know.

    TRANSCRIPT at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...#axzz4saRWmzEE
    for those who can't do video.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  23. #23
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    FRN must be borrowed into existence. Because interest must be paid on that principal borrowed, new FRNs must be created to pay that. The debt must always increase and, hence, the value will always decrease. It is a vehicle to transfer wealth to the Central Banks and the Families behind them. The FED uses interest rates and easy credit to blow up bubbles, such as the stock market, bond market, housing market and car market, so that they can burst the bubbles and transfer more wealth to bankers and their large corporate cronies. Through this system, the middle class and those on fixed income through investments have become like Masai cattle, constantly bled and milked to feed the vampire class.

    We have actually reached the point where the value of the FRN has essentially achieved zero and are more than $20 trillion in the hole as a lien against all future productivity. Foreign nations are refusing to buy our new debt and the yield curve between the short and long term bond has flattened. Now we are "monetizing" our own debt, buying it ourselves. The snake is eating its tail on the road to hyperinflation. The world is awakening to the fact that the "full faith and credit" of the US is shot and our credit card for foreign goods is about to be shredded. Ironically, we are accelerating this inevitable crisis through our foreign policies of sanctions against China and Russia - jump starting the Chinese CIPS international trade settlement system as an alternative to our hegemony through the SWIFT system and goosing China and Russia to find alternative markets in the One Belt One Road plan.

    At least cryptos cross borders in purchasing power. They are just too volatile to be used as currency still, the exchanges are structured on a fractional reserve model and vulnerable to fraud, the new ICOs can be crap and coins like bitcoin are really so small that large holders can easily influence price. The blockchain technology, however, and platforms like Ethereum are sound, revolutionary and disruptive of the current system.
    "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozdoats View Post
    The Federal Reserve is a child of the Bank of England, where this whole con got started before the birth of the FUSA. Alexander Hamilton was its major proponent here at the beginning.

    "They" are banksters, first and foremost. They used to be referred to in this country as "the money power," and the term still fits.

    Know the history and the present will be clearer..........

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
    All Wars Are Bankers' Wars R/T 43:33

    A couple of errors, but pretty much straightforward history you should know.
    When Trump hung a portrait of Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office my greatest hope ever was that it was more than just artistic
    "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

  25. #25
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    And Andrew Jackson suffered an assassination attempt for his trouble in opposing the Second Bank Of The United States.

    I pray the same is not the case for DJT.

    This from the Library of Congress - see the link for illustrations. And remember when you read the following, that "scholars say" Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in murdering JFK also.

    https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2014/01/il...ndrew-jackson/

    “I’ll be damned if I don’t do it!”: The Failed Assassination Attempt on President Andrew Jackson
    January 16, 2014 by Robert Brammer

    On January 30, 1835, an unemployed painter by the name of Richard Lawrence made the first attempt on the life of a sitting U.S. President. That damp, misty day, President Andrew Jackson had traveled to the Capitol Building to attend a Congressional funeral in the House Wing. As the President exited the funeral, he approached the east portico of the Capitol. Upon seeing the President, Lawrence drew a pistol from his pocket and fired. An explosion occurred, but only the cap fired. In spite of his advanced age, the President charged Lawrence with his cane. Before the President could reach him, however, Lawrence produced a second pistol and pulled the trigger. This pistol also misfired, allowing the President to reach Lawrence, who then ducked to avoid being struck by the President’s cane. The President reportedly yelled, “Let me alone! Let me alone! I know where this came from.” Lawrence was then subdued by onlookers and the President was taken by carriage to the White House.

    Scene at the Capitol from “Shooting at the President!: The Remarkable Trial of Richard Lawrence, for an Attempt to Assassinate the President of the United States.”

    Capitol Building Stereoview. Stare through the images until they combine to form one, three-dimensional photo. [Photo by Robert Brammer.]

    The political environment at the time was highly charged due to the President’s veto of the bill to reauthorize the charter of the Second Bank of the United States. Initially, many believed Lawrence was the instrument of a Whig conspiracy, including the President himself. Despite these early claims, scholars now believe Lawrence acted alone and of his own accord. When initially questioned, Lawrence declared that the President had killed his father, a claim that was quickly revealed to be false. Upon further investigation, it was revealed that Lawrence believed he was King Richard the III, and the President’s opposition to the Second Bank of the United States had denied him the ability to receive a dispensation owed to him by Congress for his various estates. Lawrence even dressed the part of royalty at trial, sporting a shooting jacket and cravat. He also expressed some indignation at the fact that he was being judged by commoners. After the jury was instructed, Lawrence had the last word, stating, “It is for me, gentlemen, to pass upon you, and not you upon me.” Unsurprisingly, the jury found him not guilty by reason of insanity. Lawrence was confined to an asylum for the remainder of his life before passing away in 1861.

    A depiction of Richard Lawrence from “Shooting at the President!: The Remarkable Trial of Richard Lawrence, for an Attempt to Assassinate the President of the United States.”

    Why didn’t the pistols fire? Lawrence’s pistols were later examined. The powder was said to be of good quality, and when tested, they both fired.*The damp conditions of the day may have increased the odds of a misfire, but the odds of two successive misfires were still very slim. After the conspiracy theories faded from the public mind, a sentiment arose that the President had been spared by divine providence, a belief the President shared.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  26. #26
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    The monetary system is a fraud, whether it is managed by the central banks or bitcoin, the central banks don't like bitcoin taking over.

    In the fractional reserve banking system ALL new money is created as a debt by lending, a loan becomes a deposit, under the fractional reserve system banks are allowed to lend out many times the amount of their deposits. So the bottom line is that money is created by loans, a loan becomes a deposit, banks can lend money to a fractional reserve of their holdings so they can lend out up to 30 times the amount they have on deposit, if they have 30 million on deposit they can lend out 900 million.

    This system has been in existence for about 300 years yet no-one understands it, except a few members of this forum, and even so no-one has come up with an alternative........I guarantee that anyone who has taken out a loan or mortgage simply does not understand what is going on........

    For instance I have sold my parent's house on the death of my mother, the buyer took out a mortgage (debt) for the cost of the property, I benefited from the deposit, without the mortgage debt I could not have had a deposit, i'e "cash" a loan has become a deposit the system is so simple and effective that no-one least of all any member of this forum has been able to create an alternative monetary system.
    Last edited by Richard; 09-13-2017 at 05:16 PM.

  27. #27
    NWO globalists are going to get even nastier - they DO have the power AS LONG as they can control the money. Bit Coin is NOT under their control . . . yet, but they CAN screw it up. Just look at this article, it has taken a toll on Bit Coin today.
    The people of the United States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. Abraham Lincoln, 1859

  28. #28
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    Why did Jamie need to make a public statement about Bitcoin at all? What/Who was it that moved him? Who provided the message he was to deliver? What is the concern?

    Crypto currencies are cats out of the bag. No way to put them back in again. Cryptos have no standing as legal tender, yet more and more people are willing to exchange more and more fiat for positions in crypto currencies. The IRS has classed crypto currencies as a form of property or an asset.

    Two years ago Coinbase was adding 50k-100k new accounts per month. Today they are adding 50k new accounts per day. There is a tide change happening. At some point they will be adding 50k new accounts per HOUR.

    Currently only 1-2% of the general population has any awareness of what a crypto currency is, or what it is used for. Those who are investing by trading fiat for crypto currencies amount to maybe 1/10% or less of the general population. Even at that rate the total market capitalization of crypto currencies is approximately $150 BILLION. Consider those proportions for a few minutes. Where is the trending going??

    Crypto currencies are a bit more technically sophisticated than sea shells, gold or fiat paper. There is no fraud where there is an agreement on the use of a medium of exchange. The parties to the arrangement agree to use them as they are and for what ever "value" they provide. That is not fraud. That is what we can call a "free market". In the case of Fiat currencies they are in the control of centralized authorities and a close group of banks who form the command and control structures of the economic and financial system which most people feel there is little to no alternative.

    I am not stumping for crypto currencies here. Each person has to inform themselves. IMO cryptos are not even in the "early adopter" phase. 75% of the population will be waiting for someone to tell them that it is safe to get into the pool. About 15% of the population will only be dragged into the pool far, far after the 75% are into it. The 10% who are self starters and who trust themselves to understand and manage their own risks will be very slowly evaluating cryptos as to what they are and if there are any opportunities. It is that first group whi will form the "early adopter" group. That group is at least 100x the size of the current crypto investors group.

    Statistically, if all Bitcoin were equally distributed to each person on the planet, each person would receive 0.0025 BTC. There is currently about 30 grams of gold person on the planet. BTC is 400x more rare per capita than gold. I am not sure how many sea shells each person might expect would be their share.

    Just sharing some information for anyone who has an interest.

  29. #29
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    little jamie Dimon - siting at the right hand of satan - next to the rest of the goldmanSUX crew and of course the "HONORABLE" Jon Corzine - another asshat that should ESAD
    ďSo then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.Ē REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  30. #30
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    Money is whatever two people say it is - until one of them changes their mind.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  31. #31
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    You're right. It's a war.

    o)

    mike
    black is white...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ittybit View Post
    Why did Jamie need to make a public statement about Bitcoin at all? What/Who was it that moved him? Who provided the message he was to deliver? What is the concern?

    Crypto currencies are cats out of the bag. No way to put them back in again. Cryptos have no standing as legal tender, yet more and more people are willing to exchange more and more fiat for positions in crypto currencies. The IRS has classed crypto currencies as a form of property or an asset.

    Two years ago Coinbase was adding 50k-100k new accounts per month. Today they are adding 50k new accounts per day. There is a tide change happening. At some point they will be adding 50k new accounts per HOUR.

    Currently only 1-2% of the general population has any awareness of what a crypto currency is, or what it is used for. Those who are investing by trading fiat for crypto currencies amount to maybe 1/10% or less of the general population. Even at that rate the total market capitalization of crypto currencies is approximately $150 BILLION. Consider those proportions for a few minutes. Where is the trending going??

    Crypto currencies are a bit more technically sophisticated than sea shells, gold or fiat paper. There is no fraud where there is an agreement on the use of a medium of exchange. The parties to the arrangement agree to use them as they are and for what ever "value" they provide. That is not fraud. That is what we can call a "free market". In the case of Fiat currencies they are in the control of centralized authorities and a close group of banks who form the command and control structures of the economic and financial system which most people feel there is little to no alternative.

    I am not stumping for crypto currencies here. Each person has to inform themselves. IMO cryptos are not even in the "early adopter" phase. 75% of the population will be waiting for someone to tell them that it is safe to get into the pool. About 15% of the population will only be dragged into the pool far, far after the 75% are into it. The 10% who are self starters and who trust themselves to understand and manage their own risks will be very slowly evaluating cryptos as to what they are and if there are any opportunities. It is that first group whi will form the "early adopter" group. That group is at least 100x the size of the current crypto investors group.

    Statistically, if all Bitcoin were equally distributed to each person on the planet, each person would receive 0.0025 BTC. There is currently about 30 grams of gold person on the planet. BTC is 400x more rare per capita than gold. I am not sure how many sea shells each person might expect would be their share.

    Just sharing some information for anyone who has an interest.
    Thanks for this...

    o)<

    mike
    black is white...

  33. #33
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    Bottom line for me will always be - Bitcoin is digits (just like 95% plus of FRN$).

    Gold is atoms.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  34. #34
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    LOL...JPM doesn't like Bitcoin...
    Asking a banker about Bitcoin is like asking a mailman about email in 1993...

    If that's not a buy sign, I don't know what is...

    Peter Schiff doesn't like Bitcoin either. He wouldn't make a profit on the spread selling physical gold. All stock brokers/bankers will be opposed to it as it will cut them out of the game. Crypto currency's are peer-to-peer transactions so who needs a bank?

    I've been learning about this for months and very close to jumping in now.
    I'd rather be paranoid, prepped and wrong than be irrationally happy, frivolous and screwed.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Northwet View Post
    LOL...JPM doesn't like Bitcoin...
    Asking a banker about Bitcoin is like asking a mailman about email in 1993...

    If that's not a buy sign, I don't know what is...

    Peter Schiff doesn't like Bitcoin either. He wouldn't make a profit on the spread selling physical gold. All stock brokers/bankers will be opposed to it as it will cut them out of the game. Crypto currency's are peer-to-peer transactions so who needs a bank?

    I've been learning about this for months and very close to jumping in now.
    I have been very reluctant to venture into the crypto's . . . digits are digits and CYBER digits are even scarier IMHO. there is NOTHING that can't be hacked - given the time and desire to do so.
    ďSo then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.Ē REV 3:16

    Raging Deplorable - we do NOT forget; we do NOT forgive; we are LEGION

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,926
    I agree with you. A secure wallet and exchange I can trust are the only things holding me back. Just learning about Mt. Gox a couple months ago has been keeping me out.

    Every exchange I have researched has rave reviews, but also negative ones. Same with the wallets. Back and forth I go to try to find something that fits. My best guess is to hold multiple wallets, all with smallish amounts to avoid being a target.
    I'd rather be paranoid, prepped and wrong than be irrationally happy, frivolous and screwed.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    State of New California
    Posts
    2,667
    Bought ETH today.
    Tom Reed

    Ignorant and free has never been and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Happy on the mountain
    Posts
    52,009
    I posted this on Main when it came out and someone on staff saw fit to move it for whatever reason. Given my statement above (Bitcoin is digits, gold is atoms) I'm pasting it here too, perhaps to add some understanding to the discussion.
    ================================

    https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcom.../www.bing.com/

    Gold Was Chemically Destined to Be Money All Along
    August 16, 2017

    I think most of you reading this right now are aware that gold is unlike any other metal, certainly any other element. It doesn’t play by the same rules as iron or tin or aluminum, and its value has nothing to do with its utility—or lack thereof. People valued the yellow metal for its beauty and malleability eons before they knew of its usefulness in conducting electricity or its chemical inertness.

    That gold is so chemically “boring,” though, is one of the main reasons why it’s so highly valued, even today.

    This is the conclusion of Andrea Sella, distinguished professor of chemistry at University College London. In 2013, Sella spoke with Justin Rowlatt of the BBC World Service, walking him through all 118 elements of the periodic table.

    Gold, according to Sella, is the best possible candidate for a currency of any value.
    As he points out, we can automatically eliminate whole swaths of the periodic table for various reasons. We can cross out gases, halogens and liquids such as helium, fluorine and mercury. No one wants to carry around vials of a colorless gas or, in the case of mercury and bromine, a poisonous substance.

    We can then rule out alkaline earth metals such as magnesium and barium for being too reactive and explosive. Carcinogenic, radioactive elements such as uranium and plutonium are too impractical, as are synthetic elements that exist only momentarily in lab experiments—seaborgium and einsteinium, for example.

    That leaves us with the 49 transition and post-transition metals: titanium, nickel, tin, lead, aluminum and more.

    But many of these pose problems that should immediately exclude them from consideration as a currency. Most are too hard to smelt (titanium), too flimsy for coinage (aluminum), too corrosive (copper) and/or too plentiful (iron).

    We are now left with just eight candidates, the noble metals: platinum, palladium, rhodium, iridium, osmium, ruthenium, silver and gold. These are all attractive as currencies, but except for silver and gold, they’re simply too rare.

    So: silver and gold.

    What gives gold the edge over silver, however, is—once again—its chemical inertness. Unlike its white cousin, gold doesn’t tarnish. It’s nonreactive to air and water. Add to this its softness, and it easily emerges as the perfect currency. Ancient peoples recognized this, and I don’t think anyone now would have any problem coming to the same conclusion either.

    “I view gold as the primary global currency.”
    Those are the words of former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan, speaking to the World Gold Council for the 2017 winter edition of its Gold Investor publication.
    “It is the only currency, along with silver, that does not require a counterparty signature. Gold, however, has always been far more valuable per ounce than silver. No one refuses gold as payment to discharge an obligation. Credit instruments and fiat currency depend on the credit worthiness of a counterparty. Gold, along with silver, is one of the only currencies that has an intrinsic value. It has always been that way. No one questions its value, and it has always been a valuable commodity, first coined in Asia Minor in 600 BC.”

    Right now, for the first time in human history, world currencies are free-floating, meaning they’re not backed by anything tangible.

    It’s largely because of this that world debt has been allowed to soar to astronomical highs in recent years, threatening the stability of the global economy. As we’ve seen in Zimbabwe, Venezuela and elsewhere, a nation’s currency can rapidly lose its value and become worthless. Families and individuals who didn’t have a portion of their wealth stored in a real asset such as gold lost everything.

    This is why I always recommend a 10 percent weighting in gold, with 5 percent in physical gold (coins, bars and jewelry) and the other 5 percent in high-quality gold stocks, mutual funds and ETFs.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Maidenhead
    Posts
    24,516
    JPMorgan's Dimon says bitcoin 'is a fraud'

    Color me surprised! He says that bitcoin and other crypto's aren't backed by anything....and he is right. Tell me again what his favorite currency the FRN is backed by? Nothing!! Except the 'full faith and credit' of the U.S. whatever that is. We are lacking in faith and have maxed our or national credit card so I would put to Dimon that the FRN has nothing on the cryptos. At least with the cryptos there is a limited amount whereas the Fed and the dark pools can manufacture as many digital dollars as they want. What Dimon really means is that the central banks and the TBTF banks such as his don't want any competition.
    What is the lake of fire? What is it's purpose? Is the lake of fire eternal hell? Is there any hope of escape for those cast into this lake?
    http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Happy on the mountain
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    52,009
    Best seen at the link for illustrations etc.
    =================

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/m...-money-v-fiat/

    Legal Tender Money v Fiat
    Posted Sep 12, 2017 by Martin Armstrong

    QUESTION:
    I wonder if you would care in a future blogpost to cast some light on the following?
    The sole ‘legal tender money’ in the final analysis is the FRN (Federal Reserve Note — coins aside) collateralized by the Fed’s assets.All other ‘money’ is private bank credit money or suchlike,including Money Market Funds and other said-to-be money-like instruments.Despite the aspersions that surround Fiat money it is in toto a small number — around $1.6 bn. However there are promises to pay in FRN on demand.

    Does that last fact account for the talk about banning cash ( ie the FRN) ?

    Like the promise to pay in Gold it seems impossible to pay in the FRN were that ever to be demanded in size. De Gaulle ended the gold-on -demand offer so could something similar could happen to the FRN ? Back then Gold rose against all assets — ditto the FRN ?

    I hope you are reading this in some comfortable place, given the atrocious weather in Florida.
    Best Rgrds
    Bill

    ANSWER: Most money is actually created by the private sector through leverage and bank loans today. This is why when there is a crash, the contraction takes down banks for it is the leverage that collapses. When you have a debt based system, then the monetary system becomes leveraged. With the fall of Rome, the Catholic Church adopted the Sin of Usury thanks to Saint Thomas Aquinas and his 20 volume work, Summa Theologica.

    There has never been actual tangible money issued by any government that was worth strictly its metal content. It was always valued greater than its intrinsic value. Even the first coins issued by any government took place in Lydia, located in modern Turkey. They used gold simply because that was the private medium of exchange. The first step was simply to create a standardized weight for in the Bible they talked about weighing the silver to make payment. When the king began to stamp his seal on money, fiat began. People used metal and wheat as a medium of exchange. The legal code of Hammurabi specified prices in wheat and silver. The king attempted to regulate the economy, but he did not borrow money nor did he issue coins.

    The definition of fiat as stated in Merriam-Webster dictionary reads:
    Definition of fiat
    1: a command or act of will that creates something without or as if without further effort According to the Bible, the world was created by fiat.
    2: an authoritative determination: dictate a fiat of conscience
    3: an authoritative or arbitrary order; decree government by fiat

    Fiat is anything dictated by government. It need not be limited to paper money. Historically, even gold and silver became fiat once government decreed its value. Above, we can see the coinage of Lydia was reduced in weight to expand the money supply to pay for war. This was fiat – the government dictating the value of money.



    Therefore, these scenarios about fiat money are so grossly exaggerated. All money is fiat when issued by a government. Even gold coins were fiat since the value was set by government and there was also a profit to coin money. Rome funded itself about 80% by owning the silver and gold mines and they took the metal, coined it, and paid their bills. So even that was fiat since they declare its value. CONFIDENCE in the government of Rome was first shaken by Maximinus and his declaring that all wealth belonged to the state. Then the final straw came in 260 when the Emperor Valerian was captured by the Persians. Suddenly, Rome was vulnerable and then see the collapse in the currency.

    As far as legal tender is concerned, that means it is acceptable by government to pay taxes and fines. What good is it that all your money is in BitCoin and you have to pay taxes when the government does not accept it?

    This entire argument about fiat and money should retain a store of value is nonsense. That has just NEVER been the case historically. We live in a business cycle with booms and busts. To argue that money should be constant is Marxism. You cannot have it both ways where your house gains in value yet money itself remains constant. How is such a relationship even possible? They are mutually exclusive of one another.

    The entire system rests solely upon CONFIDENCE. You would only accept a gold coin in payment solely because you know someone else will accept it from you. With that degree of CONFIDENCE, nothing would be acceptable.

    The only thing that will retain a barter value at all times has historically been food because you need it to live.

    This is why I say that the Monetary Crisis Cycle comes into play when we have a collapse in public CONFIDENCE. It really has nothing to do with the quantity of money. We have witnessed massive increases in money supply by Quantitative Easing without an uptick in inflation. People have hoarded money – not spent it. When they shift their CONFIDENCE from government to the private sector, then they will see to spend their government money and move toward tangible assets. Many have been doing that with real estate.

    Therefore, the leverage creates the real money supply. The physical supply of cash is tiny. The government is trying to reduce that even more to gain taxes. Bankers are in favor of eliminating cash for it would also prevent bank runs in the traditional sense.
    The wonder of our time isnít how angry we are at politics and politicians; itís how little weíve done about it. - Fran Porretto
    -http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-wholly-rational-hatred.html

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