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Pests/Ctrl Survival Gardens ... Pesticide edition.
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  1. #1

    Survival Gardens ... Pesticide edition.

    You may eat organic and never wish to use any sprays... However during a survival situation you cannot risk your crop and only food source on your whims. Gardening is hard enough with the weather, variable precipitation, and possible storms.

    A few Facts for those purchasing their produce from organic suppliers..

    Your "organic" crops are sprayed with several insecticides.
    The organic sprays work in the very same ways as the non organic.
    Organic sprays generally require more applications.
    Organic sprays are nearly identical to their non-organic cousins.
    Some non-organic insecticides used to be organic approved
    Some organic approved insecticides were not organic in the past.
    Organic is a label and barely a growing method.

    Lastly, if absolutely needed a farmer can use non organic sprays on their organic crop.


    A quick primer on the different types and why you want so many different ones.

    Each pesticide works with different modes of action. Some make the bug starve because they can no longer process food because it uses up all the vitamins the bug has. Some make it not want to eat. Some excite them and make them dance till they die. Some disrupt the nervous system so it makes them sit and die. Some cause the bug to get sick. Some will make fungus grow on or in them. Some will make their shell thin and irritated. The thing to realize is pesticides work in many different fashions. You want utilize as many different ways as you can each season so the bugs don't develop immunity. Their are some that the bugs never get immune to but these are generally the least effective. All pesticides have a mode of action listed on the label. Use these to determine your mix. You want at least 3 modes of action for every crop. Quick crops like lettuce and greens you may want 4 types. In addition to mode of action we have systemic and non-systemic. Systemic means it gets into the plant, roots to flower and fruit. Non systemic means it just sites on the top. Nearly all the pesticides available to home gardeners are non systemic. Excepting two. Lastly, you will note the organic sprays cost much, much more.

    Next, use the amount of insecticide the label suggests. Too little is actually worse than a little too much. The insects are more apt to develop immunity if lessor amounts are used. Carefully read the label for the precautions, amounts of concentrate to add to your sprayer, how much spray to use per sq ft. Also note the location limitations, some prohibit uses indoors or in greenhouses, by ponds or streams, and in certain weather conditions.

    Finally the sprays.. Not all are available in all states but they are widely available. If the particular trade name isn't available in your state. You may find one with the active ingredient. You can also substitute different trade names with the same active ingredients if you find it cheaper. Just be sure to read the label before purchase. Some mixes are cheap but have very restrictive labels.

    Systemics..


    Non organic
    Neonicotinoids, The bee killers. While true just don't use it on plants that flower. This is great for protecting greens and lettuces, cabbages and broccoli, and root crops. Fact is you shouldn't spay anything when bees are active. So this generally means spraying in the evening just before dark. Another avoided fact. Honey bees are not native to the Americas. Most crops are not bee pollinated. Most are wind pollinated with the remainder being fly pollinated. Those bees you see on the squash. Yeah they aren't needed. Now if you were in the desert and had no natural bugs, then perhaps you would be concerned.

    Organic
    Bayer Fruit, citrus and vegetable
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004BLNVMS/

    Azagaurd
    Growth inhibitor. It stops the insect from phase changing. Can be used as a spray and is also a mild systemic.

    https://www.amazon.com/AzaGuard-Bota.../dp/B00C4PTIH0

    Non-systemic.

    Non-organic

    Sevin dust... Works great for general pest control of leaf eating insects.
    https://www.amazon.com/Sevin-Concent...dp/B000RNEYBG/

    Malathion
    Works well on all insects. It has to contact them tho so if they can flyaway they will. It has almost no residual.
    https://www.amazon.com/Spectracide-M...dp/B004NRPD94/

    Crop Spray
    Natural pyrethrins with an exciter. Works very well as a contact knockdown spray.

    http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/py...ay-p-7270.html



    Organic

    Monterey crop spray. Works by exciting the bugs and disrupting feeding. It can cause minor damage to the plant if too much is used. Residual lasts a few days. Works by ingestion and externally.
    https://www.amazon.com/Monterey-Gard...dp/B002BP12LI/

    Pyganic, an organic approved Pytherin. Work as a contact spray and will drive out flying insects. No residual at all.
    https://www.amazon.com/Insecticide-O...dp/B004OKZZGG/

    Biogaurd Works by growing fungus on the bugs. Has some residual. (don't use on tomatoes)
    https://www.amazon.com/Botanigard-Es...dp/B000J2K34W/


    The last set is the many oils, soaps, and blockers. They all last for a very short time and can contaminate the produce. They work by direct contact or making the area unpleasant for the bugs. They work fine if your not having an issue and use them continuously in prophylactic fashion. But will fail to save a crop from an infestation. They are so widely available it's a moot point to add links. I would caution you to test for adverse reactions prior to spraying the whole garden. Many will cause leaf burn and blossom drop. Many will leave a residue, for instance if you spray your lettuce with neem oil to kill some aphids. It will taste like neem oil. Which is fine if you like neem oil. On the other hand, Azagaurd is made from neem oil. So you get the effects of neem oil without the taste.


    I always keep several non organic and organic in my spray mix. Always rotating the type when needed. For a few hundred dollars you can have a lifetime supply of many insecticides. Be sure to store them out of the sun, in a cool place, that never freezes. Also remember the organic sprays that contain live culture can't be stored for long periods.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-01-2017 at 10:13 AM.

  2. #2
    So say you are in an area where every year you have issues with squash vine borers...

    Non Systemic due to possible bee harm.

    Here is how I would deal with the issue.

    First make sure the plant has all the nutrition and water it needs. A healthy plant can always defend itself better.

    Organic ...
    As soon as I see one I would do a treatment with azagaurd and Pyganic mixed.
    If still present
    One week later I would treat again with Monterey crop spray
    If still present
    One week later with Pyganic with biogaurd.
    If still an issue
    One Monterey crop spray.


    Non organic

    Treat with sevin at the first sign.
    If still present at 7 days
    treat with Malathion

    This will likely be enough.
    If not go back and forth. Weekly.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-01-2017 at 10:56 AM.

  3. #3
    Say you have the curse of cabbage worms... Who doesn't?

    Non organic, Systemic
    Treat with Bayer vegetable, citrus, and fruit insecticide shortly after planting.

    Non organic, Non systemic
    Treat with sevin at first sign of bugs.
    After one week
    Treat with Malathion
    After one week
    treat with Crop spray

    Repeat cycle if pests are present.

    Organic

    At first sign treat with Biogaurd and Pyganic
    After one week
    Treat with Monterey crop spray and azagaurd
    After one week
    treat with pyganic
    Repeat all steps till crop is finished.
    If heavily infested increase the frequency of treatment to 4 or 5 days.
    Do read the labels and don't over apply.

  4. #4
    Cabbage worms? Simple.. just spray with Bt when you first see the cabbage butterflies flitting around the plants. Repeat 1 week later, and every week afterwards if you're still seeing butterflies.

    I HATE Sevin... a cupful can wipe out an entire beehive. Neonicotinoids are worse... they're banned in Europe, and for some reason, they don't have colony collapse disorder in their bees there. Could be coincidental... or not.

    I'm a licensed pesticide applicator, who farms almost completely organic (go figure). Exceptions are Roundup for fenceline weed control, and occasionally synthetic pyrethrins for fly control when my homemade essential oil spray just isn't enough to keep the horses and mama cows from going nuts.

    This year, the big problem is Japanese beetles. They're absolutely destroying the blueberry bushes. I could spray/dust the bushes with Sevin... but that would mean it would be on our berries. Ain't doing it.

    So, I go out every morning with a tin can with 1/2" of gasoline in the bottom, and pick beetles. Giant PITA... but it helps, a lot.

    And our bees are thriving.

    Also, while it's true that honeybees aren't native, the difference between crops where there are thriving hives of bees and where there aren't is really amazing. Since we started keeping bees, we almost never see "aborted" fruits on any of our vine crops. The blueberry bushes this year (despite cold weather and even some frost during bloom) were loaded to the point that I had to prop up branches... I've never seen that before. I've had to thin apples for hours, to make sure i get decent sized fruit, and to prevent branches from breaking.

    If it's literally a difference between us getting food, or spraying... yeah, we'll spray with whatever is necessary. But I'm not at all convinced that much of the huge increase in cancers, Parkinson's Disease (a very large problem in folks who have commercial greenhouses and/or are pesticide applicators) and other serious health issues aren't related to the stupid amount of chemicals we put on our food crops. I keep herb beds full of various types of plants that parasitic wasps love... Angelica archangelica and lovage are two that will be literally covered with those tiny insects when they're blooming. In turn, they attack all sorts of nasty insects.

    DE is also useful for many types of hard-shelled bugs. Don't dust the blossoms, so the honeybees don't get in on them, and it's safe for any crop.

    I just picked and froze 2 bushels of broccoli... didn't find a single cabbage worm on any of. I sprayed with Bt when the plants were young, around the first of July.

    Summerthyme

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by summerthyme View Post
    Cabbage worms? Simple.. just spray with Bt when you first see the cabbage butterflies flitting around the plants. Repeat 1 week later, and every week afterwards if you're still seeing butterflies.

    I HATE Sevin... a cupful can wipe out an entire beehive. Neonicotinoids are worse... they're banned in Europe, and for some reason, they don't have colony collapse disorder in their bees there. Could be coincidental... or not.

    I'm a licensed pesticide applicator, who farms almost completely organic (go figure). Exceptions are Roundup for fenceline weed control, and occasionally synthetic pyrethrins for fly control when my homemade essential oil spray just isn't enough to keep the horses and mama cows from going nuts.

    This year, the big problem is Japanese beetles. They're absolutely destroying the blueberry bushes. I could spray/dust the bushes with Sevin... but that would mean it would be on our berries. Ain't doing it.

    So, I go out every morning with a tin can with 1/2" of gasoline in the bottom, and pick beetles. Giant PITA... but it helps, a lot.

    And our bees are thriving.

    Also, while it's true that honeybees aren't native, the difference between crops where there are thriving hives of bees and where there aren't is really amazing. Since we started keeping bees, we almost never see "aborted" fruits on any of our vine crops. The blueberry bushes this year (despite cold weather and even some frost during bloom) were loaded to the point that I had to prop up branches... I've never seen that before. I've had to thin apples for hours, to make sure i get decent sized fruit, and to prevent branches from breaking.

    If it's literally a difference between us getting food, or spraying... yeah, we'll spray with whatever is necessary. But I'm not at all convinced that much of the huge increase in cancers, Parkinson's Disease (a very large problem in folks who have commercial greenhouses and/or are pesticide applicators) and other serious health issues aren't related to the stupid amount of chemicals we put on our food crops. I keep herb beds full of various types of plants that parasitic wasps love... Angelica archangelica and lovage are two that will be literally covered with those tiny insects when they're blooming. In turn, they attack all sorts of nasty insects.

    DE is also useful for many types of hard-shelled bugs. Don't dust the blossoms, so the honeybees don't get in on them, and it's safe for any crop.

    I just picked and froze 2 bushels of broccoli... didn't find a single cabbage worm on any of. I sprayed with Bt when the plants were young, around the first of July.

    Summerthyme


    Bt is no better than other poison, the point I was making was that most everything purchased has been sprayed.
    I don't care for BT because it is rapidly becoming ineffective due to over use. Too many folks choose not to use a wide variety of pesticides. Not to mention the fact that it is only effective against caterpillars. What do you use for aphids? How about stink bugs? What about leaf borers? Cut worms? Horned tomato worms, Army worms. Nematodes. The list is endless and worse if your not in a cold climate like ours.

    So you don't like sevin? What other non-organic or organic pesticides do you use? I practice IPM.. So other formulations would be helpful. My biggest issue is finding organic insecticides that actually work due to growing hydroponic.



    Blueberries are not pollinated by Bees. Blueberries bloom when the temp hits 40F... Honey bees don't fly till 50. They are pollinated by the June nightmare.. Black flies.


    Your worries about pesticides and Parkinson's or other disease of civilization. Is misplaced. It's excess carbs and sugar in the western diet.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-01-2017 at 01:57 PM.

  6. #6
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    Stan999, Why do you think blueberries are not pollinated by bees?
    This is from NC state extension: https://entomology.ces.ncsu.edu/smal...y-pollinators/
    Numerous native bees (including bumble bees and solitary bees) are indigenous pollinators of blueberry plants in North America. In addition, honey bees are used extensively by growers to augment populations of native pollinators. Bees are attracted to the flowers by odors and sweet nectar that is produced by glands near the base of the stigma. Both pollen and nectar serve as food for the bees and their offspring.

    Bt is a bacteria, not a poison. I don't spray anything on my broccoli, I cover it with row covers. If I didn't use row covers, I would use Bt. Cabbage worms and a few tomato horn worms are the only insects I have problems with. I grow cabbage, broccoli, tomatoes, potatoes, green peppers, leeks, onions, carrots, cucumbers, winter and summer squashes, lettuce, spinach, and peas. Healthy soil means healthy plants which in turn means fewer insect and disease problems.

  7. #7
    Bees don't fly till after the blueberries are pollinated in there natural ranges.


    To bring the conversation back on topic...

    Bt is poison. If you read my post you would note my comments about plant health.

    Just because you don't have certain pests doesn't mean they aren't a pest for others. I'm discussing producing several tons of food to feed a family or large group.

    How many acres do you have under cultivation so we can discuss scale. I will be making a post about scale next week. I hope you chime in. I'm sure you agree that scale makes a huge difference. 10 broccoli vs 300 row feet.

  8. #8
    Stan...

    My bees start working the early Species crocuses in FEBRUARY! In fact, when we opened the hives (remember, I'm in Western NY state, and zone 5a) in the first week of March this year, we had to put honey supers on, because they were running out of room already! The blueberries don't generally start blooming until early/mid May.

    I've grown 2 acres of vegetables this way (minimal to no sprays) for 40 years. Yes, it's work. But our health, as we reach our "golden years" (hahahahahaha!) is so much better than that of almost all of our contemporaries (especially those who farm conventionally) that I do believe that the average American is being poisoned by all the "miracle" chemicals we've used so casually over the last 60 years.

    What pushed me even more towards avoiding as many chemicals as possible (as I've said, I'm not a purist.. I WILL and do use anything necessary to save a crop in a pinch) is that hubby- due to being raised by a moron who did commercial spraying as a side job before any of the licensing/training rules were in place- has a severe sensitivity to all organophosphates, and lots of other chemicals as well. He was deathly ill for weeks one winter before we realized it was from exposure to SOMETHING in a load of straw we bought from our usual supplier. The guy swore he'd used only a simple herbicide fairly early in the season, but something in there was absolutely toxic.

    As far as the Parkinson's, I don't have time to do any searching now (gonna be absolutely crazy here for at least the next 6 days), but several years ago, after the operators of three different greenhouses in our area ALL developed Parkinsons Disease within a couple years of each other, I did do some research, and there is a definite correlation. Commercial greenhouses, of course, are some of the most intensive chemically soaked operations in existence.

    And no, Bt is NOT a poison... it's a live bacteria that colonizes the gut of the larvae of lepidoptera (butterflies and moths)- which includes those large tomato hornworms. It doesn't affect any other genus.

    My preps do include a basic selection of various "poisons" to be used in dire emergencies. But I'll use row covers on my blueberries rather than Sevin even for the rotten Japanese beetles which I'm currently handpicking daily.. I'd rather have a painful spine than be poisoned!

    Summerthyme

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Bees don't fly till after the blueberries are pollinated in there natural ranges.
    Zone 5a/b here and the bees are out in late February early March gathering pollen from the crocus, violets, and creeping charlie. Blueberries don't bloom here until mid May.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Bees don't fly till after the blueberries are pollinated in there natural ranges.


    To bring the conversation back on topic...

    Bt is poison. If you read my post you would note my comments about plant health.

    Just because you don't have certain pests doesn't mean they aren't a pest for others. I'm discussing producing several tons of food to feed a family or large group.

    How many acres do you have under cultivation so we can discuss scale. I will be making a post about scale next week. I hope you chime in. I'm sure you agree that scale makes a huge difference. 10 broccoli vs 300 row feet.
    My bees are all over my blueberries in the spring. The blueberry barrens up here are covered with hives for pollination. If the bees didn't fly until after pollination the growers wouldn't be paying for that service.

  11. #11
    Wish bees here in zone 4 are out when it hits 50... may... excepting the odd off day.

  12. #12
    I wish you all luck... done posting in this section of the forum. I have thousands of sq ft of green house to tend.

    Good luck on your crisis garden when times get hard. I simply have lost interest in arguing with know it all's. You won. The point of this post was to demonstrate the relative cheapness and effectiveness of select widely available pesticides. I suggested using the neonicitinides on non flowering crops... f the blueberries if you need food for your family. Save the bees while your children starve. You all are so obtuse as to be comical. By the way blueberries were plentiful 2000 years before the honey bee arrived.

    Due note it. I will periodically check for actual helpful production posts.


    P.s. 2 acres is enough for 4 people... You see it's a lot when you can run to wallyworld. When you cant... You better plant 3 to 4 times your needs. Broccoli is a total waste of space. Better plant beans, potatoes, and greens.

    P.p.s it is easy to produce abundance. With the right know how. My farm is more profitable than 65% of the farms in america... Im gunning for the top 5%..
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-02-2017 at 05:46 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mecoastie View Post
    My bees are all over my blueberries in the spring. The blueberry barrens up here are covered with hives for pollination. If the bees didn't fly until after pollination the growers wouldn't be paying for that service.

    Exactly!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Wish bees here in zone 4 are out when it hits 50... may... excepting the odd off day.
    Zone 4, this may be a sunlight factor as well as a temperature factor.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by summerthyme View Post
    Stan...

    My bees start working the early Species crocuses in FEBRUARY! In fact, when we opened the hives (remember, I'm in Western NY state, and zone 5a) in the first week of March this year, we had to put honey supers on, because they were running out of room already! The blueberries don't generally start blooming until early/mid May.

    I've grown 2 acres of vegetables this way (minimal to no sprays) for 40 years. Yes, it's work. But our health, as we reach our "golden years" (hahahahahaha!) is so much better than that of almost all of our contemporaries (especially those who farm conventionally) that I do believe that the average American is being poisoned by all the "miracle" chemicals we've used so casually over the last 60 years.

    What pushed me even more towards avoiding as many chemicals as possible (as I've said, I'm not a purist.. I WILL and do use anything necessary to save a crop in a pinch) is that hubby- due to being raised by a moron who did commercial spraying as a side job before any of the licensing/training rules were in place- has a severe sensitivity to all organophosphates, and lots of other chemicals as well. He was deathly ill for weeks one winter before we realized it was from exposure to SOMETHING in a load of straw we bought from our usual supplier. The guy swore he'd used only a simple herbicide fairly early in the season, but something in there was absolutely toxic.

    As far as the Parkinson's, I don't have time to do any searching now (gonna be absolutely crazy here for at least the next 6 days), but several years ago, after the operators of three different greenhouses in our area ALL developed Parkinsons Disease within a couple years of each other, I did do some research, and there is a definite correlation. Commercial greenhouses, of course, are some of the most intensive chemically soaked operations in existence.

    And no, Bt is NOT a poison... it's a live bacteria that colonizes the gut of the larvae of lepidoptera (butterflies and moths)- which includes those large tomato hornworms. It doesn't affect any other genus.

    My preps do include a basic selection of various "poisons" to be used in dire emergencies. But I'll use row covers on my blueberries rather than Sevin even for the rotten Japanese beetles which I'm currently handpicking daily.. I'd rather have a painful spine than be poisoned!

    Summerthyme
    Cool, I'm pushing $2000 a week on a 1/2 acre. Or about 1000 pounds of produce... part time. How many tons you pulling a week on 2 acres? I'd expect about 5 or so. Total envy.


    Funny you know so much and so little. No nonorganic pesticides are approved for hydroponic use.. none. We only use organic listed sprays in the greenhouses. My produce would be organic excepting the nutrient. Which I can get but costs an arm and a leg... of 4x as much. It's also causing nutrient mining from far off places or the oceans. Basically leaving remote areas devoid of life. Not exactly ecologically responcible... IMHO. But we have had discussions about the switch. The excess sprays... they are for your Christmas Poinsettias, your Easter flowers, and your mother's day bouquets. I suggest you throw them in the trash if any heartless jerk gives them to you. Save Jesus and Maria form the horrors of cancer.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-02-2017 at 07:42 PM.

  16. #16
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    Stan,
    I agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say things that I know to be false, it calls into question everything else you say.
    You are right that most people's gardens are not enough to provide all of their food needs for a year. My garden provides approximately 30% of my families yearly food, and I have a large garden by local standards. If I worked full time on the garden, I could provide a much larger percentage, but I must work a job to pay our living expenses. Right now, it is an either/or situation.

    Summerthyme's perspective on pesticides is shared by many, including myself. If I was only relying on my garden to feed my family, might I use stronger pesticides if needed? Probably after I tried everything else. But right now, I would not use synthetic pesticides, I would suffer a crop loss rather than injest pesticide residue.

    By the way, native bees pollinated the blueberries before honey bees came to North America. Blueberries are not pollinated by flies.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Stan,
    I agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say things that I know to be false, it calls into question everything else you say.
    You are right that most people's gardens are not enough to provide all of their food needs for a year. My garden provides approximately 30% of my families yearly food, and I have a large garden by local standards. If I worked full time on the garden, I could provide a much larger percentage, but I must work a job to pay our living expenses. Right now, it is an either/or situation.

    Summerthyme's perspective on pesticides is shared by many, including myself. If I was only relying on my garden to feed my family, might I use stronger pesticides if needed? Probably after I tried everything else. But right now, I would not use synthetic pesticides, I would suffer a crop loss rather than injest pesticide residue.

    By the way, native bees pollinated the blueberries before honey bees came to North America. Blueberries are not pollinated by flies.
    Do you have them on hand?. Are you familiar with their use? Shtf... You will be getting what you can when or if you can. Pesticides will be more valuable than booze or prostutes. I produce enough for about 50 families... eating well. Maybe 75 if I grow what they need and not what they want.

    Honey Bees do not pollinate blueberries under native conditions. No plant from america needs honey bees. Next you will tell me tomatoes need bees. Lol yes I know they use them in green houses. Blueberries are effectively pollinated by many insects... honey bees are the least effective. As I said earlier, blueberry experts will have blueberries..... not much else. I'll allow my 8 acres of wild high bush blueberries self pollinate as they have for thousands of years. Here is me picking several years back...


    https://youtu.be/hHvvIx61uDU

    I'm kinda familiar with the little blue sweet treats. How many bushes bo you have? My patch is 100 percent wild. Wish I could cultivate them. It's just too much. I mostly just brush hog for access. We pick about 20 gallons over a few days each year.... well lately it's just a few gallons. We are too busy with cash crops.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-02-2017 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    Zone 5a/b here and the bees are out in late February early March gathering pollen from the crocus, violets, and creeping charlie. Blueberries don't bloom here until mid May.
    We are in the place with the lowest growing degree units in this state. In an average year we get 1150... not enough for corn. We never get over 90f and most days the lows are near 50f. In may we still get frosts most days. Our "last" frost day is June 1st... tho I have had frosts as late as the 6th of june. Do to our elevation. Fall frosts and freezes come late.. often not until late oct. In fact it often snows several inches before we get any real cold. So sure in a warmer area it could be different. Ive learned that grow zone isn't everything. Growing degree units, average par, relative humidity, and growing season precipation are much more important than the lowest temp in winter every 20 years.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-02-2017 at 08:36 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Do you have them on hand?. Are you familiar with their use? Shtf... You will be getting what you can when or if you can. Pesticides will be more valuable than booze or prostutes. I produce enough for about 50 families... eating well. Maybe 75 if I grow what they need and not what they want.

    Honey Bees do not pollinate blueberries under native conditions. No plant from america needs honey bees. Next you will tell me tomatoes need bees. Lol yes I know they use them in green houses. Blueberries are effectively pollinated by many insects... honey bees are the least effective. As I said earlier, blueberry experts will have blueberries..... not much else. I'll allow my 8 acres of wild high bush blueberries self pollinate as they have for thousands of years. Here is me picking several years back...


    https://youtu.be/hHvvIx61uDU

    I'm kinda familiar with the little blue sweet treats. How many bushes bo you have? My patch is 100 percent wild. Wish I could cultivate them. It's just too much. I mostly just brush hog for access. We pick about 20 gallons over a few days each year.... well lately it's just a few gallons. We are too busy with cash crops.
    THe bees are for much more than pollination. They are producing honey, a food source, and wax from those flowers and the flowers of many other plants. In a SHTF environment that is food that takes me very little time and resources to produce and is very easy to store. Cant ask for much more than that. Are they necessary for pollination. No. But you will be hard pressed to find any commercial orchard, berry or melon producer who doesnt use honeybees for commercial pollination.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mecoastie View Post
    THe bees are for much more than pollination. They are producing honey, a food source, and wax from those flowers and the flowers of many other plants. In a SHTF environment that is food that takes me very little time and resources to produce and is very easy to store. Cant ask for much more than that. Are they necessary for pollination. No. But you will be hard pressed to find any commercial orchard, berry or melon producer who doesnt use honeybees for commercial pollination.
    Lol, I can point to thousands of farms... most in fact. They need bees in the arid west or huge monoculture... both aren't close to sustainable.

    What will you do once you can no longer get your varroa mite treatment?

    P.S. I have 2 hives.. they are a hobby and not expected to be self sustaining for SHTF. Maple sugar is much more sure in my region.

  21. #21
    I wanted to tell you all, I have been homesteading for the last 20years... slowly adding and improving. We have homestead livestock that includes a family cow, gardens, we home process our meats. We have processing equipment for preservation, canning goods, and curing meats. We make bread from wheat berries, cheese from milk, and bacon from pork sides. I'm a few months from my harvest rite. �� We are also recently commercial market farmers..... 4 years. So I'm not new to the rodeo.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Maine
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    2,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Lol, I can point to thousands of farms... most in fact. They need bees in the arid west or huge monoculture... both aren't close to sustainable.

    What will you do once you can no longer get your varroa mite treatment?

    P.S. I have 2 hives.. they are a hobby and not expected to be self sustaining for SHTF. Maple sugar is much more sure in my region.
    Where are you? Because around here in Maine all the big blueberry production, commercial orchards and big melon/ squash producers all use honeybees. Many of the little U pick places have at least a couple hives. I have numerous requests for my hives for pollination. They wouldnt do it if it didnt make economic sense for them.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    I wanted to tell you all, I have been homesteading for the last 20years... slowly adding and improving. We have homestead livestock that includes a family cow, gardens, we home process our meats. We have processing equipment for preservation, canning goods, and curing meats. We make bread from wheat berries, cheese from milk, and bacon from pork sides. I'm a few months from my harvest rite. �� We are also recently commercial market farmers..... 4 years. So I'm not new to the rodeo.
    Thats awesome. It may surprise you that there others on here who have been at it a lot longer and a lot harder. Summerthyme is one of them. I would recommend a little less in your face. You clearly have it all figured out but you just might pick up a thing or two.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by mecoastie View Post
    Where are you? Because around here in Maine all the big blueberry production, commercial orchards and big melon/ squash producers all use honeybees. Many of the little U pick places have at least a couple hives. I have numerous requests for my hives for pollination. They wouldnt do it if it didnt make economic sense for them.
    In lancaster co... let alone the rest of pa, ny,nj ect. Produce more vegtables than Maine could ever hope for.

    Read this carefully... monoculture is not sustainable. Honey bees increase yields for monoculture.

    P.S. Those blueberry flats prior to the endless spraying had plenty of insects for pollination. Did you do raking as a kid? Near half my family are down easters.. from the Waldo/Belfast area.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mecoastie View Post
    Thats awesome. It may surprise you that there others on here who have been at it a lot longer and a lot harder. Summerthyme is one of them. I would recommend a little less in your face. You clearly have it all figured out but you just might pick up a thing or two.
    I have "known" summertime for a decade. She is living the life she wants, I dont wish to be poor or work so damn hard. She is to be respected. I would love for her to switch things up... She could work a lot less and produce a lot more with certain techniques.

    Oh I gleen useful info... direct me to your post that is helpful for deciding which pesticides will work best and be least toxic for a survival garden.

    P.S. I been around long enough to know most bloviate about things they no little about. Note not many on this thread makes 100% of their food requirements... let alone produces abundance for other family's larders.

    "Oh I have been gardening for 20 years... I have 8 tomato plants and 3 dozen cabbage." Is not survival experience or farming. It's small gardening.

    P.p.s I'm gruff. It's a feature.
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-02-2017 at 09:51 PM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    36,725
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    I have "known" summertime for a decade. She is living the life she wants, I dont wish to be poor or work so damn hard. She is to be respected. I would love for her to switch things up... She could work a lot less and produce a lot more with certain techniques.

    Oh I gleen useful info... direct me to your post that is helpful for deciding which pesticides will work best and be least toxic for a survival garden.

    P.S. I been around long enough to know most bloviate about things they no little about. Note not many on this thread makes 100% of their food requirements... let alone produces abundance for other family's larders.

    "Oh I have been gardening for 20 years... I have 8 tomato plants and 3 dozen cabbage." Is not survival experience or farming. It's small gardening.

    P.p.s I'm gruff. It's a feature.

    The average age here at TBK is 67, stew on that one long and hard. In a true SHTF situation where the grid goes down, there's no infrastructure, etc., the majority of the members here will be dead within three months. And it's not because they can't meet 100% of their food needs. Things like cold, lack of medications, lack of medical care, infection, the golden hoards, etc. are a tough reality to swallow but reality it truly is. Most of us here would like to provide for 100% of our food needs, and with as little toxic chemicals as possible as we already have a sh*t ton of age related health issues. So a little compassion, patience, is warranted.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    The average age here at TBK is 67, stew on that one long and hard. In a true SHTF situation where the grid goes down, there's no infrastructure, etc., the majority of the members here will be dead within three months. And it's not because they can't meet 100% of their food needs. Things like cold, lack of medications, lack of medical care, infection, the golden hoards, etc. are a tough reality to swallow but reality it truly is. Most of us here would like to provide for 100% of our food needs, and with as little toxic chemicals as possible as we already have a sh*t ton of age related health issues. So a little compassion, patience, is warranted.
    Of course, but should a new commer posting information that has yet to be added to. Excepting the one poster in question who offered an alternative treatment which while valid isn't the only way to go. Did I not offer organic, non organic, and systemic treatment options with links to places to buy the actual products? Where else have you found that kind of info.. not to mention the reccomendations were per label and legal today. This is the kind of info smart folks pay for. Why should I bother? You all know it all.

    The aged could easily plant and harvest with the methods I can share. Just an hour a week spent planting and harvesting could produce all the vitamins one would need. So older folks are just too set in their ways and think they know enough. Unfortunately.

    P.S. I'm not here to sell a darn thing. I didn't link to my " webstore". I offered free info. Do like it. Don't read it. Wouldn't that be easy?
    Last edited by Stanb999; 08-03-2017 at 06:10 AM.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    White Mountains area, AZ
    Posts
    4,254
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanb999 View Post
    Lol, I can point to thousands of farms... most in fact. They need bees in the arid west or huge monoculture... both aren't close to sustainable.

    What will you do once you can no longer get your varroa mite treatment?

    P.S. I have 2 hives.. they are a hobby and not expected to be self sustaining for SHTF. Maple sugar is much more sure in my region.
    I have had bees for about 8 years, and never bought varroa mite treatment. Regress the bees by letting them build out their comb from scratch, use powdered sugar dusting once in a while if necessary. I never have had to with regressed bees.

    By the way, I was hoping for posts about your hydroponics...are you going to do that like you said when this room was discussed?
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget your perfect offering
    There is a crack, a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in.

    ("Anthem" by Leonard Cohen)

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