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DISASTER UK: Lancaster Estate tower disaster - death toll at 79, Other Towers Evacuated!
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  1. #121
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    May God have mercy.
    +1000..

  2. #122
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    Heard a witness on BBC say that the building was having repairs done on the pipelines in the building. I can see a exploding frig or something else igniting the pipeline and going through the building pretty quick. That building was engulfed way too fast. The fire didn't go up slowly, floor by floor, within one half hour it was totally engulfed.
    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Burrito View Post
    @GrenfellTower: Bull Shit
    Yeah, really. Unless it's some "special green" insulation made from sawdust and paraffin pressed into sheets!

    Summerthyme

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by summerthyme View Post
    Yeah, really. Unless it's some "special green" insulation made from sawdust and paraffin pressed into sheets!

    Summerthyme
    Word is it was made of some sort of industrial plastic, I don't know enough about this sort of thing to know either way but SOMETHING caused the entire 24 floors to go up in about 30 minutes instead of the usual jumping floor to floor over a longer period of time.

    Even if this stuff didn't cause the fire (I would be surprised if it did) it might still be one reason it was fast and so extreme (though I notice it hasn't collapsed in on itself - yet, sorry could not resist; this does sadly remind me too much of 9/11 too; though without airplanes).
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Melodi View Post
    SOMETHING caused the entire 24 floors to go up in about 30 minutes instead of the usual jumping floor to floor over a longer period of time.
    If the tenants were in the habit of propping the stairway doors open, that could explain it. I suspect there were no doors within the stairway itself, so the whole thing was like a chimney flue. If they propped the doors open for convenience, it could go up fast. If the doors (presumably steel) were closed, it should have been contained on one floor.

  6. #126
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism
    "Be Prepared" - Boy Scouts Motto
    "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." - Jesus Christ, Mk 13:37
    "Don't worry, be happy" - Bobby Mcferrin
    "Take a chill pill" - Mongo

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism
    Could have been, if the jihadis thought that the tenants were too worldly or the wrong sect. Those people are happy to kill each other for differences in the faith.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism
    Ah, grasshopper overlooks possible accident in Muslim terrorist workshop in his apartment!!

    IF that turns out to be the case, then just like we can say "the man who throws stones shouldn't live in a glass house"
    we could also say that "the Muzzie who builds improvised explosive devices and molotov cocktails at home should not live in a high rise firetrap!"
    (Or, for his neighbors, we could say: "harboring terrorists can KILL you" when the curse he intended to land on innocent people lands instead on him and those closest to him!)
    Last edited by ainitfunny; 06-14-2017 at 10:19 AM.
    72, and still learning.
    Striving to become a "know it all".
    LOL! Long road ahead.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism

    Could be explosive experiment/bomb making went wrong.


    ETA - Just saw above comment, GMTA....
    Asato Ma Sad Gama - leave illusion, come to the truth
    Tamasi Ma Jyotir Gama - leave the darkness, come to the light

    You may not be interested in Islam
    But Islam is VERY interested in you

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism
    Muzzies kill other muzzies every single day all over the world.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    I appears that the tower was inhabited mostly by Muslims
    So likely not Islamic Terrorism
    Depends what they were cooking.
    "They wanted to be left alone to face challenges head-on, and to prosper from their own hard work and ingenuity...harsh country tends to produce strong people."-John Erickson

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    attachmentid=138287
    Are you on the right thread?

  13. #133
    After hours of endless repeats new information is now starting to emerge - from sky news
    Sky News

    @SkyNews

    12 people confirmed to have died, with that number expected to rise: #GrenfellTower fire update from @LondonFire @metpoliceuk @Ldn_Ambulance
    5:14 PM - 14 Jun 2017
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  14. #134
    Grenfell Tower Block blaze: Death toll rises to 12 - What we know so far

    Alexander Britton

    June 14 2017 4:44 PM

    0



    At least 12 people have died after a huge fire destroyed Grenfell Tower in north Kensington, west London, with the death toll likely to rise.

    Police Commander Stuart Cundy told reporters: "Sadly I can confirm that there are now 12 people who have died, that we know of, this is going to be a long and complex recovery operation and I do anticipate that the number of fatalities will sadly increase beyond those 12."



    Here is what we know so far:

    The Grenfell Tower fire death toll is 12 and will rise further, Commander Stuart Cundy of the Metropolitan Police said.
    NHS England said 74 people are being treated in six hospitals across the capital, of whom 20 are in critical care.
    Crews were first called to the scene in Latimer Road at 12.54am on Wednesday.
    40 appliances containing more than 200 firefighters attended the scene, with a number receiving minor injuries.
    Grenfell Tower was built in 1974 and contains 120 flats thought to be home to between 400 and 600 people and is 24 storeys high.
    The building was refurbished recently at a cost of £8.6 million, with work completed in May last year.
    London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the fire had been declared a "major incident" and there would be a "great many questions" asked over the coming days.
    A casualty bureau has been set up for anyone concerned about friends and family on 0800 0961 233.


    Press Association
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news...-35826539.html
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  15. #135
    And after most of the day acting like if the news just kept repeating only six dead the public would be lulled to sleep; now they start the preparation for the real news (remember in the UK it is perfectly legal for the government to suggest or pull stories)...
    Sky News

    @SkyNews

    A 'considerable number of people' were in #GrenfellTower last night but the number still unaccounted for is not yet known, say police
    5:23 PM - 14 Jun 2017
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  16. #136
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    I tuned to Sky News just now and was amazed to see visible flames -still- emanating from the structure.
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


  17. #137
    17:51

    Explosions heard at Grenfell Tower, Sky Correspondent Mark White says

    Mark White

    @skymarkwhite

    BREAKING 2 explosions heard within #GlenfellTower as more flames erupt from some windows. Still very difficult firefighting efforts underway
    5:30 PM - 14 Jun 2017
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  18. #138
    A few observations before I go to bed:

    1. The news is once again in a "holding pattern" there are strong rumors (including the UK Daily Mail) that the entire last three flours may not have had anyone get out alive, there is no reason to know yet if this is true or not; the MSM, for the most part, isn't commenting except to say over and over "The Death Toll is expected to go higher).

    At this point, I honestly don't expect any updates before morning, unless something happens like the tower (which is still on fire) collapses in the middle of the night.

    2. I watched a lot of interviews with survivors and while even the news outlets admitted there was a large Muslim contingent that lived in the tower; they certainly were not the only ethnic group, survivors included everything from an African women (with African English) to a "working-class" White "bloke" who I'd guess was in his late 40's and his family. A former resident who had made a lot of the complaints that showed up in the press was also white and had finally moved out about a year ago partly over the problems he kept pointing out.

    3. The Tories should be glad the election was last week and not next week because it was I think they would have lost what small majority they have; too much is coming out about refusals to publish reports, refusals to vote for mandatory water sprinklers and alarms in high rise buildings, the closing of nearby fire stations etc.

    4. Finally there is enough blame to go around though; this whole thing from cladding put on supposedly to appease the wealthy homeowners nearby (who didn't want to look at the old buildings for the poor) to contractors and landlords who claim they have "no idea" yet what could "possibly" have happened or indeed claim not to know what the outside of the building was even covered in (despite their overseeing about 8 million pounds worth of repairs to put it up).

    I'm off to bed, but this story isn't going away even though it has gone quiet; I think the government knows they are trying to keep the calm as long as they can because the storm is coming when the real numbers of how many are dead and MIA has to start coming out, probably as early as tomorrow - if nothing else someone is going to start counting up those listed as missing on social media and start counting it up; if the government keeps being silent.
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  19. #139
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    Melodi, I really hate to say this, but earlier I saw a tweet from someone who said only 75 people made it out. I hope that's not true.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  20. #140
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    If the hoses and water can't reach the fires and it is impossible or utterly unsafe to enter the building, they just have to let it burn itself out unless they think (also dangerous) forest fire type air drops of water might hasten the extinguishing of that Europe's biggest biggest crematory. I see no way for them to actually recover much in the way of identifiable remains of the hundreds of people suddenly cremated alive in the middle of the night there last night.

    FIRE is just one reason DDH and I had never even considered living in any kind of "shared housing", apartment, not even condos. I won't stay in a high rise hotel either and beat feet ASAP to exit any tall building that personal business requires me to visit. Hospitals are often high rise but don't give you much choice, but I avoid them and doctors too for as much as I reasonably can.

    Make SURE you carry on your person a powerful, with fresh batteries flashlight every time you enter a hospital for ANY reason, day or night!! I DID have such a flashlight on my person about about 15 years ago when the hospital I had taken my mother(bone cancer) to for radiation therapy had a MIDDAY blackout and since that department had no outside windows, it instantly became as black as an unlit coal mine!!! The "emergency lights" did not all work, the nurses wailed that all the "emergency flashlights" had been stolen and were missing from where they should be! Since it was about noon, none of the nurses/staff had a flashlight ON THEM and since you couldn't see you hand in front of your face, I sat my mom down and then helped staff scrounge up personal flashlights from purses and the few flashlights that had not been stolen and then I led my mom and a group of other outpatients out of the pitch black area of the hospital!

    In fact, Grandma sez-it is wise to always 24/7 carry a small flashlight, some kind of knife, a steel dogtag with personal info, a whistle, and 2 aspirins (if you are over 50)(I, being 72,carry nitro tablets) around my neck, even in the shower/ sleeping! My cell phone is always either on me, or within reach even while charging at night, and I carry a fully charged back-up cell battery in my coat pocket and a spare phone charger stays in the car.
    When I'm awake, I am armed (packing) when I am not awake, a loaded, racked, gun is within my immediate reach. Been that way daily, for 20 years. I stick a folded, quart ziplock freezer bag in my back pocket if I plan to go outside.

    By the way, I have a free COMPASS application on my android phone, I suggest you download it, so you are never without some kind of compass! You don't need cell phone service for it to work!
    Last edited by ainitfunny; 06-14-2017 at 06:33 PM.
    72, and still learning.
    Striving to become a "know it all".
    LOL! Long road ahead.

  21. #141
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    Thanks, Ainit. Wise words....

    ---------------

    Geele‏ @Camell_Rider 2h2 hours ago

    This what left of #Grenfell tower, a very sad sight
    Attached Images
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  22. #142
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    Fair Use Cited
    ----------------
    London residents demand answers in deadly high-rise blaze

    By GREGORY KATZ and DANICA KIRKA
    Associated Press
    Jun 14, 6:22 PM EDT

    LONDON (AP) -- With smoke still swirling around the charred remains of Grenfell Tower in west London, residents and community leaders demanded to know Wednesday how a ferocious fire could have swept through the high-rise apartment block with such speed that it killed at least 12 people.

    The anger was particularly strong since activists had warned just seven months ago that fire safety procedures were so lax that only a catastrophic blaze would bring the scrutiny needed to make the building safe.

    WHAT HAPPENED?

    Fire and police officials have not specified what went wrong, but extensive video footage shows the flames climbing the exterior of the building at a remarkable pace.

    "I've never seen a fire like that in my life," said Joe Ruane, the former deputy chief fire officer for U.S. Air Force bases in Britain. "I've never seen that in a residential block."

    The 24-story public housing complex is owned by the local government council in the borough of Kensington and Chelsea and was completed in the 1970s. It is managed by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organization, which spent 10 million pounds ($12.8 million) refurbishing the building over the last two years.

    The renovation project included installation of insulated exterior cladding, double-glazed windows and a communal heating system. Investigators need to look at what materials were used in the project and who approved their use, Ruane said. But he said the speed with which the fire spread suggests that more than one fire protection safeguard failed.

    "It's not just one thing," Ruane said. "It's multiple issues."

    WHAT WAS THE FIRE PROCEDURE AT THE BUILDING?

    Some residents suggested that Grenfell Tower's policies were to blame for the disaster.

    A newsletter put out by the building's tenant organization told tenants to follow a "stay put" policy and remain in their apartments during a fire unless the blaze was inside their apartment or in their hallway or until they were told to evacuate by officials.

    This policy is in place "because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire-safety standards," according to the 2014 newsletter about the renovation project. New front doors in each apartment could withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes, "which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive," the newsletter said.

    That policy, often followed in high-rise hotels, may be effective in lesser fires. In this case, however, the fire seemed to climb the exterior of the tower so quickly that it overwhelmed protective systems like fire doors. People who initially remained in place may have been unable to escape later because the hallways and fire escapes were filled with heavy smoke and flames.

    The London Fire Brigade said crews were on the scene within six minutes of the first reports of the fire, but they were unable to reach people on higher floors to prevent fatalities.

    WHO IS TO BLAME?

    While investigations are underway to determine what went wrong, tenants said repeated complaints were ignored. Survivor Edward Daffarn said the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organization, or KCTMO, which manages the Grenfell Tower as well as other buildings in the area, is responsible because it ignored numerous warnings.

    The management organization's annual accounts for the year ending March 31, 2016, indicate that the company has been cited for fire-safety issues in the past.

    Following an October 2015 arson fire at one of the buildings it manages, the 14-story Adair Tower, the London Fire Brigade issued an enforcement notice to install self-closing devices on the front doors of all 78 apartments and to improve fire safety in staircases used for escape, the organization said in the report.

    The Fire Brigade issued a similar notice for another KCTMO-managed building, Hazelwood Tower. The upgrades were scheduled to be completed by 2016, the report said.

    The Grenfell Tower disaster is uncomfortably similar to a fast-moving blaze at another London-area public housing project, Lakanal House, that killed six people, including three children, eight years ago. In that July 2009 fire, smoke and flames quickly engulfed the 14-story building. A coroner's inquest found that a series of failures contributed to the loss of life and made a number of recommendations to help prevent future disasters.

    Investigators probing the Grenfell Tower fire will have to look at which of those recommendations were implemented in the building and which were not, said Jim Fitzpatrick, a former firefighter who now serves in the House of Commons.

    "These will be matters for the scientists and the engineers ... to find out exactly how the fire started, why it spread so quickly and what could have been done to prevent it," Fitzpatrick told Sky News.

    A local community organization, the Grenfell Action Group, had warned about fire dangers at the building since 2013. In a series of blog posts, the group raised concerns about testing and maintenance of fire-fighting equipment and blocked emergency access to the site.

    "All our warnings fell on deaf ears, and we predicted that a catastrophe like this was inevitable and just a matter of time," the group said in a blog post Wednesday.

    KCTMO said it is cooperating with investigators and that it was aware of tenant complaints. "We always take all concerns seriously and these will form part of our forthcoming investigations," it said in a statement.

    The Kensington and Chelsea Council promised a full investigation into Wednesday's tragedy and a public accounting. The UK government also ordered checks at tower blocks that have had or are going through similar renovations as those at Grenfell Tower.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...06-14-18-22-30
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


  23. #143
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    You know the scumbags will try to weasel out of any blame, RB.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  24. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    You know the scumbags will try to weasel out of any blame
    Most normal people try to avoid being blamed. It doesn't take a scumbag.

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    You know the scumbags will try to weasel out of any blame, RB.
    Per Melodi's excellent observations, I get a real sense that information is being carefully parsed and managed.

    We can fully expect the investigation to be "slow walked" and dragged out over months and maybe even years. Remember the old adage, "Time heals all wounds".

    The one inescapable fact is the burned out tomb blighting the London cityscape. I wonder how quickly that will demolished?

    The other inescapable fact is that this tragedy should never have occurred to a recently renovated structure in a modern western city.
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


  26. #146
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    From what I read, some guy's fridge exploded, not an uncommon occurrence over there, unfortunately.

    The outside cladding (recent renovation) probably spread the fire due to flammable material behind it, which effectively acted as a chimney for the fire to ascend. Watching it last night, I can certainly believe this. It seemed to climb up and go in.

    Terrible how only one damned staircase for 120 flats. Inexcusable. Ditto for the neglect that was well-documented.

    But hey, they're poor, so who the eff cares? [/sarc]
    No good deed ever goes unpunished.

  27. #147
    Early morning observation and update: pretty much no new news, except the endless repeat this time with "update" that the "death toll will go higher;" that and hints that other buildings around the world with this cladding have caught fire.

    I agree with Red Baron and I realized something else this morning; of course Ms. Mae is going to try to delay the really bad news until after she "forms" her government if she can finally get the DUP on board by this afternoon (there are rumors they are demanding things that could tank the Northern Ireland Peace Process like expanded Ulster Unionist marches allowed through Catholic neighborhoods again etc) that may just be rumors but she is doing a formal meeting with the "Republican" (aka United Ireland/Catholic) leaders today supposedly to meet their "concerns" (like she will really care if it is joined with the DUP or lose power).

    So my hunch is that yes, some more information will come out sometime between now and noon because it has too; people are starting to add up the social media "missing persons" notices and they are a heck a lot more than 12; BUT the really bad news won't come out until after Ms. Mae is able to say "we have a government" (if she gets one).

    We shall see, that's just a prediction based on the trends I'm seeing; everything could change on a dime if someone lets things slip (even a mortuary attendant)...

    I've got to go shopping this morning, the news may be different when we get back.
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  28. #148
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    We have full blown shooting congress crisis here which knocked this story sideways on its arse at 8 am. So we will be counting on hearing from your side of the pond! The lack of sprinkler system and even basic fire alarms is incomprehensible. Surely poor working class in all the U.K "vertical ghettoes" are all aware now and have cleared the rubbish kips blocking back stairwells, purchased simple battery smoke alarms for their floors? Its been awhile but I remember the tower blocks out there by the airport outside Dublin proper. They were hellholes in the 70's of kids throwing themselves off in despair, heroin abuse. So bad, Bono wrote songs about it! They were demolished for the most part in Chicago too (Robert Taylor homes) and their populations dispersed thru the city, which now accounts for the spread of crime into some districts. Its an inhuman existence. Even if the tenant fights for dignity, is spotlessly clean, the play area sidewalk level is often gang tagged up or filled with broken glass.

    London has a serious illegal underbelly that clings in Dickensian squalor and survives in the city. You saw them for two decades at Calais, hitching illegal rides on lorries. London has become a place where nobody under age 50 who is not a white collar professional or comes from inherited wealth, can afford to live full time there now. Otherwise they are the concentrated poor, with massive social service and NHS interventions to keep them alive to scrub the cities toilets, vacuum its hotels, wash its restaurant dishes, drive its buses and subways. Its the template for every major city now, imported low wage labor classes.

    The catch is if they are there under the wires, they are under the table of the system. And everyone knows this is going on. Mayor Boris Johnson knew. Mayor Sadiq Khan knows. Its no secret, that London has a Calcutta in its midst. These are glorified garages in the back of neat little walled in working class brick bungalows with extension cords running out the main houses. They siphon the electric off, pay their landlord. Cook on hotplates, rig up cheap Turk refrigerators. Its all unregulated, uninspected & of course its a giant safety hazard waiting to erupt in fire in some humongous borough blaze.

    The Sheds of London:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NEh0Al5a8Sk

    The city is now dependent on this parasitic refugee labour force and cannot function without them now. The saddest part is Kensington Council has no clear idea how many were living in the 120 units at Grenfell. 400? Or 600? Or more squatting?
    Last edited by homecanner1; 06-15-2017 at 03:36 AM.

  29. #149
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    CBS News‏Verified account @CBSNews

    JUST IN: Death toll in London high-rise fire increases to 17, but authorities say many more victims still expected http://cbsn.ws/2secLe6


    Russ DeCastro‏ @RussDeCastro221 3m3 minutes ago
    Replying to @CBSNews @AlexDenisTV

    @JonVigliotti reported that there *could be as many as 100 deaths. (If I remember correctly.)

    https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/875300859638370304

    Article:


    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/london-h...inkId=38725950
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    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  30. #150
    Seems to me that all metal fire escapes on the out side of buildings, is a great idea.

  31. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by West View Post
    Seems to me that all metal fire escapes on the out side of buildings, is a great idea.
    Not if all that cladding is burning. Maybe for a brick building.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  32. #152
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    I dunno but I THINK that when folks hit an external fire escape 100 yards in the air (270-300 feet or 27 floors up) they're going to freeze.
    Mookie War Creed
    "I am the Sword of my Family and Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn all that you love, and kill every one of you."


    Welcome to dar al harab -dar al kufre.


    Make sure that the hill you choose to die on is one someone else will be able to (or want to) climb to drop flowers on your grave. Make it worth SOMETHING.

  33. #153
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    Business Insider UK‏Verified account @BIUK 34s34 seconds ago

    #BREAKING Theresa May orders public inquiry in #GrenfellTower disaster. http://uk.businessinsider.com/grenfe...missing-2017-6


    She went to see it for herself.
    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  34. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    Business Insider UK‏Verified account @BIUK 34s34 seconds ago

    #BREAKING Theresa May orders public inquiry in #GrenfellTower disaster. http://uk.businessinsider.com/grenfe...missing-2017-6


    She went to see it for herself.
    Not only did she go to see for herself but she's also full aware of recorded comments and actions (or inactions) of her own party on the topic that helped lead to this situation - see article below

    Grenfell Tower: Tory minister declined to include sprinklers in fire safety rules as it could discourage house building

    'We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government'

    Samuel Osborne
    @SamuelOsborne93
    Thursday 15 June 2017 10:43 BST
    98 comments


    brandon-lewis.jpg
    Brandon Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility REUTERS/Stefan Wermuth

    The former Conservative housing minister warned against increasing fire safety regulations to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building.

    As the death toll from the Grenfell Tower blaze rose to 12, it emerged Brandon Lewis, who was recently promoted to immigration minister, declined in 2014 to force building developers to fit sprinklers.

    A sprinkler system would have "undoubtedly" saved lives at the Grenfell Tower blaze, the managing director of the Fire Protection Association told The Independent.

    "Whether they'd have stopped that fire spreading at the speed it did up the outside of that building is another matter," Jon O'Neill said.

    "But to have had sprinklers in that building would have created an environment where it would have been easier to rescue people and increase survivability."

    Mr Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility.

    He told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

    He said the Tory Government had committed to being the first to reduce regulations nationwide.


    He added: “The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building – something we want to encourage – so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has.”

    Earlier in the Westminster Hall debate to mark Fire Sprinklers Week, he had admitted: "Sprinklers work. We know that. No one can deny it.
    Read more

    "The myths around sprinklers have been well explained and debunked here today.

    "They are an effective way of controlling fires and of protecting lives and property."

    Paul Fuller, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire and chairman of the Fire Sector Federation, said sprinklers could have helped.

    He told BBC Radio 4's World At One: "We know that sprinklers are effective. Also, sprinklers will make the environment more survivable by containing the fire and containing the smoke.

    "But they are not a total solution. We also have to make sure that passive protection measures - things like the structure of the building and the fire resistance of the building - are all properly in place as well."

    He added that the federation has been calling for a review of part B of the building regulations "for a number of years now" to ensure they "meet the needs of a modern society using modern methods of construction and who use buildings differently from the way we used to 30 or 40 years ago".

    In 2013 the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue Group called for a review of safety regulation after six people died and more than 20 were hurt in a 2009 blaze at Lakanal House in Camberwell.

    A government spokesman said that following the Lakanal House fire, the coroner recommended the guidance relating to fire safety within the building regulations be simplified, work he said is ongoing.

    The coroner also asked government to write to councils encouraging them to consider retro-fitting sprinklers, he said, adding that it had happened.

    The spokesman added: “Our thoughts are with the residents and families of everyone caught up in this dreadful event. We stand ready to help in any way possible as the emergency services continue to stabilise the situation.

    “The London Fire Brigade will be conducting their investigation and at this stage it would not be appropriate to comment on the cause of the fire.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7790921.html
    expatriate Californian living in rural Ireland with husband, dogs, horses. garden and many, many cats

  35. #155
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    Videos from the beginning of the fire are very illustrative. Watch the cladding burning and falling from the building,

    'I've never seen a fire spread that quickly' - reports from Grenfell Tower - BBC Newsnight



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSYUp...#t=358.8193642
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  36. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    Videos from the beginning of the fire are very illustrative. Watch the cladding burning and falling from the building
    That's impressive. Those people were in effect sealed into an oven in minutes.

  37. #157
    What a horrible tragedy. Those poor souls. Horrific.

  38. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    That's impressive. Those people were in effect sealed into an oven in minutes.
    Firewalls and fire doors become meaningless when the exterior becomes one flaming chimney and the exterior fire explodes the windows and allows the flames to enter almost each and every flat from the outside.

    Then magnify the disaster with instructions to stay inside one's flat, no working central fire alarms, no sprinkler system and only one means of egress. Additional issues were caused by the very narrow streets severely limiting the access and staging of heavy fire fighting and rescue equipment.

    This is negligence rising to a criminal level.
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

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  39. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by night driver View Post
    I dunno but I THINK that when folks hit an external fire escape 100 yards in the air (270-300 feet or 27 floors up) they're going to freeze.
    Add high winds, rain, snow or ice and then you have a real party.

    What about the elderly, small children or babies traversing such an obstacle course?
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

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  40. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    Firewalls and fire doors become meaningless when the exterior becomes one flaming chimney and the exterior fire explodes the windows and allows the flames to enter almost each and every flat from the outside.

    Then magnify the disaster with instructions to stay inside one's flat, no working central fire alarms, no sprinkler system and only one means of egress. Additional issues were caused by the very narrow streets severely limiting the access and staging of heavy fire fighting and rescue equipment.

    This is negligence rising to a criminal level.
    Yes, but it is frequently the result of socialism. The guy in charge thought sprinklers would slow the building of houses. I guess he didn't see any difference in a house and a 26 story apartment building.
    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
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