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ENVR California's Lake Oroville Dam Spillway Suffers Major Damage!
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  1. #6281
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    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    But if the root cause is simply bad design, we have no clue what's going to pop next. Witness the scary lack of impressive rebar sticking out of the remains, for example. What if any portion of the stability of the upper spillway depended on the fact that it was pushing against a stable lower part? I mean, there's a huge amount of friction against the concrete in the water rushing down it. If that friction has no countervailing pressure, or if part of that counter pressure is lost, is there a chance that parts of the upper spillway will start to simply pull apart? I don't have a clue.
    I think you have to imagine the effect of the downward forces on the upper spillway, probably not as great as further downstream.........

  2. #6282
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    I miss walking on the dam, it was a daily ritual and a nice place to meet people, enjoy the views and wildlife. Down by the ES on the opposite side of the road were grazing pastures and 100 year old oak trees. Cows would often graze there along with the deer. Every once in a while I would see a fox or two, coyotes, squirrels and rabbits running around, now that is all gone replaced with concrete and big rocks. This video reminded me of the cows and I had to laugh. Kind of corny but fun. Lightens up the conversation and sadness of it all.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IypL_EcI9XE
    Proud to be Deplorable, Irredeemable, a Scumbag and a bigot! Nothing wrong in being any of them.

  3. #6283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I think you have to imagine the effect of the downward forces on the upper spillway, probably not as great as further downstream.........
    The upper part by the gates is where all the cracks were located. Lots of them. It took them a while to fill them all in in the heat of the summer.
    Proud to be Deplorable, Irredeemable, a Scumbag and a bigot! Nothing wrong in being any of them.

  4. #6284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
    My first thought - surfers! They benefit from that phenomenon but probably don't know the word, either.
    It's a natural phenomenon of relatively shallow supercritical flow; much different from ocean waves, though admittedly it looks similar.

    Google "hydraulic jump roll waves" to get a taste.

  5. #6285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardou View Post
    Problem is we have history since 2005 (and before) where it was pointed out the deficiencies in the ES, powerhouse, the two discharge pipes under the dam not working, the burned out power house in Thermolito, the 2 intake tubes hasn't worked in years. There's other deficiencies as well as basic maintenance which DWR neglected. It won't point to Trump, Trump in turn will point to the turd train to no where, the 2 Delta pipes to carry water to So. California, the crumbling and failing Aqua duct (it's dropped 2 feet in some places due to farmers pumping water out of the ground). So, it all falls on Browns butt not Trumps.

    http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/...iary-spillway/
    So did lake latrine there in New Orleans, and yet everyone seemed to have forgotten that fact and pointed the finger at W. I get what you're saying though.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  6. #6286
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    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    As I said earlier, if it fails uphill from the main breach all bets are off. I have no idea what the chance is of that; I am certainly not confident about it. We were extremely concerned at one point that there might be an uphill breach, which turned out to be apparently wrong. What I've always said is that as long as it doesn't break farther uphill, it can go on for years like this.
    I'm guessing there's a 70% chance it will fail.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  7. #6287
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    There is a HIGH risk that the MS will eat its way upstream, I agree downstream the damage is done and nothing can be done about it except clear up the mess. I am continually surprised that you think the MS has little or no upstream risk, that is the basis of all your posts which I think is wishful thinking, it does have a grave risk but that does not mean it will fail upstream, risks are probabilities and possibilities which are beyond our control especially in a situation like this. Having said "Wishful Thinking" may actually avert a disaster.
    I agree with you. It doesn't look like they vented the area below the area where the water drops off at the break. If it's not vented so air can be pulled in below the water, then the water can tend to follow the surface of concrete/shotcrete instead of flowing freely over it. This can cause erosion back under the main spillway.

    The sheet flow coming down the spillway flows in waves (when shallow) due to the friction of the concrete/water surface. It's a function of the channel roughness/water depth ratio and laminar flow at the interface of concrete/water versus more turbulent flow as the distance from the concrete increases.

  8. #6288
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The DWR have spent a lot of money so far on shoring up the ES, I hope this can be extended to produce a concrete foolproof spillway that can be used in an emergency or anytime.

    I would like to see a concreted over ES capable of withstanding the intended outflows. If it was proposed a few years ago then it is possible.
    It appears (from the pictures) to be too rough to use for any extended period. The velocity of the water flowing down these types of slopes can cause a lot of damage in a short period of time.

  9. #6289
    Quote Originally Posted by Beach View Post
    It appears (from the pictures) to be too rough to use for any extended period. The velocity of the water flowing down these types of slopes can cause a lot of damage in a short period of time.
    I don't know what kinds of reinforcement are available. They certainly weren't putting in rebar. If there's some flex material that can be sprayed or pumped with the concrete, that might be a help. But my impression is that it was unreinforced concrete in a jumble of big rocks. The smallest flaw in that can open a gap, and if something blows out high up it would take out everything downhill in short order.

    I have pretty much zero faith in the emergency spillway. They were doing heroic work, but the end result gives no confidence.

  10. #6290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardou View Post
    I miss walking on the dam, it was a daily ritual and a nice place to meet people, enjoy the views and wildlife. Down by the ES on the opposite side of the road were grazing pastures and 100 year old oak trees. Cows would often graze there along with the deer. Every once in a while I would see a fox or two, coyotes, squirrels and rabbits running around, now that is all gone replaced with concrete and big rocks. This video reminded me of the cows and I had to laugh. Kind of corny but fun. Lightens up the conversation and sadness of it all.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IypL_EcI9XE
    That is a funny video.

    Then again, I suppose any Wisconsinite would like a video with cows and Oktoberfest music in it?
    "The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."

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  11. #6291
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    I suppose any Wisconsinite would like a video with cows and Oktoberfest music in it?
    Needs more cheese.

  12. #6292
    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    I don't know what kinds of reinforcement are available. They certainly weren't putting in rebar. If there's some flex material that can be sprayed or pumped with the concrete, that might be a help. But my impression is that it was unreinforced concrete in a jumble of big rocks. The smallest flaw in that can open a gap, and if something blows out high up it would take out everything downhill in short order.

    I have pretty much zero faith in the emergency spillway. They were doing heroic work, but the end result gives no confidence.
    Even if it were reinforced properly, which I agree it doesn't appear to be, it wouldn't stand a chance if it's too rough under high velocity water. It needs to be as smooth as a baby's butt.

  13. #6293
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    There is a HIGH risk that the MS will eat its way upstream,
    Not being an engineer, I can't be sure, but I have my doubts about the breach eating its way upstream. It's already relieved tremendous pressures and so forth with the breach that currently exists. IMO, it all depends on how much water they release at any given time. If the water rises close to the ES and they open the MS full bore, it might indeed fail. But I think they are going to avoid that if at all possible. Of course, in this situation, even a 20% chance of it failing further up the MS is probably a "high" risk.

  14. #6294
    Quote Originally Posted by SurfaceTension View Post
    It's a natural phenomenon of relatively shallow supercritical flow; much different from ocean waves, though admittedly it looks similar.

    Google "hydraulic jump roll waves" to get a taste.
    Thanks! I did. I drowned.

    You have my respect, Surface Tension!

    There are a great number of very knowledgeable people on this board. It's inspiring, intimidating, and very educational!

  15. #6295
    Quote Originally Posted by Beach View Post
    I agree with you. It doesn't look like they vented the area below the area where the water drops off at the break. If it's not vented so air can be pulled in below the water, then the water can tend to follow the surface of concrete/shotcrete instead of flowing freely over it. This can cause erosion back under the main spillway.

    The sheet flow coming down the spillway flows in waves (when shallow) due to the friction of the concrete/water surface. It's a function of the channel roughness/water depth ratio and laminar flow at the interface of concrete/water versus more turbulent flow as the distance from the concrete increases.
    This is a series of pictures of water flowing over weirs, ventilated and not. The break in the spillway acts as a weir as the water flows over it. The first image shows a vented weir, where the water flows freely over it. The next two images show where it doesn't have adequate air and results in the water clinging to the surfaces at different degrees. The different degrees of "clinging" will depend on what the flowrate is over the break in the spillway.

    It doesn't appear that they vented the drop, so at different flowrates, they'll get some degree of "clinging" and erosion upslope. I don't think this is a thing they can continue for the long-term unless the bedrock under the spillway can take the pressure.

    Edit to add: I've tried a number of times to upload a picture, but it's not working. You can find the image here: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-an-un...more-discharge

  16. #6296
    Quote Originally Posted by Beach View Post
    I agree with you. It doesn't look like they vented the area below the area where the water drops off at the break. If it's not vented so air can be pulled in below the water, then the water can tend to follow the surface of concrete/shotcrete instead of flowing freely over it. This can cause erosion back under the main spillway.
    I think this relates to the public comments about shooting a minimum of about 50kcfs over the main spillway. They want to give it enough speed to launch clear of the immediately underlying rock/concrete. As long as it has enough speed, air will come in from the sides.

  17. #6297
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    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    A big pumping test would be a good plan. Something approximating (say) six feet of water over the spillway. Hard to imagine staging such a test, but it would be a valid one.
    Would be good to try, but I don't think a pump exists that would provide the equivalent of 6 feet over that spillway... How long was it? I don't remember offhand, but wasn't it something like a thousand feet altogether?
    "If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without a license, but not for entering and remaining in the country illegally — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots." -Jeff Foxworthy -Hey! Maybe not anymore!!!

    Mathew 24:6 "See to it you are not alarmed." (Though He also said to "keep watch" and to build your house "on the Rock".)

  18. #6298
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyBoy View Post
    Would be good to try, but I don't think a pump exists that would provide the equivalent of 6 feet over that spillway... How long was it? I don't remember offhand, but wasn't it something like a thousand feet altogether?
    I don't think so either. We're talking hundreds of high-volume low-lift pumps on barges. And if we don't do at least that much, it's not a valid test, it's just another photo-op.

  19. #6299
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowlady View Post
    Not being an engineer, I can't be sure, but I have my doubts about the breach eating its way upstream. It's already relieved tremendous pressures and so forth with the breach that currently exists. IMO, it all depends on how much water they release at any given time. If the water rises close to the ES and they open the MS full bore, it might indeed fail. But I think they are going to avoid that if at all possible. Of course, in this situation, even a 20% chance of it failing further up the MS is probably a "high" risk.
    It all depends on how well the spillway bed is tied to the "bed rock" underneath it... and what shape that bed rock is in... The drawing I saw showed pins of some kind. Not sure how large they are, or if they still exist. They might be steel, in which case they might have rusted into oblivion, depending on electrolysis, etc... The issue is, each slab might depend on the lower slabs for support, and that support is now gone, half way up... if the upper slabs are hanging on tight, all is cool... if not, all is not cool.

    ETA... the good news is, for now it is indeed holding. I was expecting that last slab above the damage to give way quickly. It has not.
    "If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without a license, but not for entering and remaining in the country illegally — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots." -Jeff Foxworthy -Hey! Maybe not anymore!!!

    Mathew 24:6 "See to it you are not alarmed." (Though He also said to "keep watch" and to build your house "on the Rock".)

  20. #6300
    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    I think this relates to the public comments about shooting a minimum of about 50kcfs over the main spillway. They want to give it enough speed to launch clear of the immediately underlying rock/concrete. As long as it has enough speed, air will come in from the sides.
    You could be very well right and I wouldn't be surprised. But they could've also vented it pretty easily so they could flow at any rate and make it more "useable". All it takes is open pipes, vented to atmosphere away from the drop and leading to the area under the drop. There's a negative pressure under the drop, so it would naturally pull air in. For this size of spillway, they'd be big pipes, but a small undertaking in the scheme of things.

  21. #6301
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    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    ... And if we don't do at least that much, it's not a valid test, it's just another photo-op.
    Agreed...
    "If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without a license, but not for entering and remaining in the country illegally — you might live in a nation that was founded by geniuses but is run by idiots." -Jeff Foxworthy -Hey! Maybe not anymore!!!

    Mathew 24:6 "See to it you are not alarmed." (Though He also said to "keep watch" and to build your house "on the Rock".)

  22. #6302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach View Post
    This is a series of pictures of water flowing over weirs, ventilated and not. The break in the spillway acts as a weir as the water flows over it. The first image shows a vented weir, where the water flows freely over it. The next two images show where it doesn't have adequate air and results in the water clinging to the surfaces at different degrees. The different degrees of "clinging" will depend on what the flowrate is over the break in the spillway.

    It doesn't appear that they vented the drop, so at different flowrates, they'll get some degree of "clinging" and erosion upslope. I don't think this is a thing they can continue for the long-term unless the bedrock under the spillway can take the pressure.

    Edit to add: I've tried a number of times to upload a picture, but it's not working. You can find the image here: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-an-un...more-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by bw View Post
    I think this relates to the public comments about shooting a minimum of about 50kcfs over the main spillway. They want to give it enough speed to launch clear of the immediately underlying rock/concrete. As long as it has enough speed, air will come in from the sides.

    You would 'think' so, bw, but I REALLY think you need to take into consideration the diagrams shared by Beach above. From this and earlier comments, I get the sense that he is knowledgeable about what he speaks.

    The flow of the water creates a "suction", as I understand it from the diagram---unless deliberate ventilation is supplied, that "suction" will pull all the water right up FLUSH with the surface behind it---no ROOM for any air to "flow in." That in turn creates friction/ pressure ON that back wall that the water is "hugging" (due to the suction) and (depending on the strength of whatever comprises that "back wall") can possibly begin eating into and destroy it.

    I am grateful for the hydraulics experts here like Surface Tension and Beach who can explain these things to us. Indeed we do have an abundance of talent here on TB2K.
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  23. #6303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach View Post
    Even if it were reinforced properly, which I agree it doesn't appear to be, it wouldn't stand a chance if it's too rough under high velocity water. It needs to be as smooth as a baby's butt.
    I was thinking along the lines of a smooth concrete surface over the entire ES, but that may not be possible without completely reworking/landscaping etc what's there. I think it should be done anyway regardless of where and how they rebuild the MS.
    Last edited by Richard; 03-21-2017 at 07:35 AM.

  24. #6304
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    We have a nice storm going on here. Very windy and raining. It's a fast moving storm, not our typical March rain storms. This storm showed up 3 days late from the original predictions. Another bad thing is it's warm outside - 55 right now. The two combined makes for a lot of snow melt above Oroville.
    Proud to be Deplorable, Irredeemable, a Scumbag and a bigot! Nothing wrong in being any of them.

  25. #6305
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    Calexit? Jerry Brown Asks Trump for Aid — for the 4th Time

    Matt Mills McKnight-Pool/Getty Images

    by Joel B. Pollak20 Mar 20171,788



    California Gov. Jerry Brown asked President Donald Trump on Sunday for federal emergency assistance for the fourth time in just two months since the new administration took office, putting the nascent “CalExit” movement in a difficult position.

    While advocates of California secession — both on the left and operating from abroad — have hoped to make the case that the Golden State can stand on its own, Brown’s repeated requests for help underline the fact that the world’s sixth-biggest economy is still dependent on the rest of the country.

    The latest request, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, asks for money for flood relief, including for repairing the damaged spillways of the Oroville Dam, which nearly failed last month, resulting in the temporary evacuation of 200,000 residents downstream of the dam.

    Desperate last-minute engineering maneuvers — including a massive release of water from the dam down an already-damaged main spillway — averted a collapse of the emergency spillway.

    The Chronicle adds: “The Governor’s Office of Emergency Services has also requested assistance from the U.S. Small Business Administration for individuals in Colusa, Lake, Lassen, Plumas, Santa Clara and Santa Cruz counties, where the flooding from February storms damaged more than 200 homes and businesses.”

    All three of Brown’s previous requests for aid have been granted.

    Brown has vowed to stand up to the Trump administration on left-wing causes such as climate change and illegal immigration. At the same time, he has welcomed the commitment of the Trump administration to invest in infrastructure, although the White House has signaled that such spending would not include California’s controversial and costly high-speed rail project.


    http://www.breitbart.com/california/...-aid-4th-time/
    -------------------------------

    Heh Jerry, Trump is giving you the big middle finger! LMAO! Now Jerry, get down on your knees and beg, get rid of Sanctuary cities, welfare for the able bodied, and just go away then. But, you aren't going to get anything. Suck it up Jerry! Tell your So. California buddies to move to another state where there's water. Between Oroville and the Aqua Duct failing, I'd say you're screwed.
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  26. #6306
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    Oroville Dam Inspectors Reported Water Seepage & Structural Issues since 2014


    Oroville Dam annual inspections found water “seepage” on the face of the dam and have been warning about potential structural steel failures since 2014.

    Breitbart News has obtained through Agenda 21 Radio the Oroville Dam’s annual ‘Inspection of Dam and Reservoir in Certified Status’ by State of California Division of Safety of Dam for the years 2014, 2015 and 2016.

    According to the September 18, 2014 inspection report, Oroville Dam had water seepage issues on the face of America’s tallest dam that that were described as a “long established wet area at the mid-slope of the left end of the dam.” Although the area was dry in 2014 due to drought, inspectors only approved “interim use” of the dam based on the implementation of a long term monitoring of the “phreatic surface within the dam.”

    Inspectors also commented that the cracking around the cement seams at the gates on top of Oroville Dam’s main spillway were a serious concern because “tendon anchors are about 50-year old and could experience problems in the future based on the history of tendon breakage at dams of similar age and construction.”

    According to the Civil Engineering Dictionary, such dam seepage means that the phreatic line of the top of the ground water table is evidence of water leaking through a dam’s internal barrier wall that should be impervious to water.

    Although the Division of Safety of Dam did not detail in 2014 why the face of Oroville Dam had a long term history of suffering from seepage, the International Water Power and Dam Construction Magazine in a 2008 article titled, ‘Dangers at Embankment Dam Boundaries and Embedments,’ pointed to Oroville Dam as the text book example of issues associated with stress cracking within an earthen dam’s internal water barrier.

    According to the article, during 1960s construction, a 900 foot long and 120 foot high concrete block wall was built on the dam’s rock foundation as a water barrier. But the “thrust” pressure as a sloping dirt wall was piled up to a height of 770 feet, caused rotation in the concrete barrier wall. As a result, longitudinal cracking developed in the top 50 feet of the barrier block wall, which was only made of unreinforced concrete.

    With “block and longitudinal cracking with openings of several inches,” the barrier wall cracks and joints were supposedly sealed by “injection of cement grout.” Instrumentation at the time supposedly showed that the remedy was “successful.”

    The State of California Division of Safety of Dam 2015 inspection again only approved the Oroville Dam for “interim use” due to seepage. But the report also highlighted numerous cracks on the top of the Oroville Dam’s spillway and cracking in the pillars and construction joints of the dam’s water release gates. The report for the first time suggests that the high-tensile structural steel anchor tendons “may be approaching the end of their useful life.”

    The Division of Safety of Dam’s 2016 inspection gave Oroville Dam another “interim use” approval, based on the same concerns as the 2015 report. But the Board of Safety of Dam specifically “expressed concern” about the risk of tendon anchors breaking due to age and stated that they “will make strong recommendations about the need to carefully monitor and test the tendons using the latest tools.”

    When Breitbart News contacted the California Division of Safety of Dam to request interviews with the dam inspectors and copies of any follow-up reports regarding the 2014, 2015 and 2016 inspections of Oroville Dam, we were informed that all questions would require filling in writing a Freedom of Information Act request.

    http://blazingpress.com/oroville-dam...es-since-2014/
    Proud to be Deplorable, Irredeemable, a Scumbag and a bigot! Nothing wrong in being any of them.

  27. #6307
    "Interim use" means "until they make a new dam"?

    This sounds extremely screwed up:

    When Breitbart News contacted the California Division of Safety of Dam to request interviews with the dam inspectors and copies of any follow-up reports regarding the 2014, 2015 and 2016 inspections of Oroville Dam, we were informed that all questions would require filling in writing a Freedom of Information Act request.
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  28. #6308
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    When Breitbart News contacted the California Division of Safety of Dam to request interviews with the dam inspectors and copies of any follow-up reports regarding the 2014, 2015 and 2016 inspections of Oroville Dam, we were informed that all questions would require filling in writing a Freedom of Information Act request.
    You bet.......

    Dam seepage has not been reported, has it happened, if so is it a threat.......

  29. #6309
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    Dam seepage and constant vibration/jackhammer from the broken spillway sounds like a disaster in the making.

  30. #6310
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    Quote Originally Posted by winodog View Post
    Dam seepage and constant vibration/jackhammer from the broken spillway sounds like a disaster in the making.
    I am a very pessimistic doomer and I do not see the good in much
    of anything, only the bad, and not just the bad, but how bad
    is the bad going to be.

    Since the MS at Oroville Dam was destroyed, I have had
    several nightmares about the future of Oroville Dam.

    It happens of course at night, after several weeks of intense
    storms that have filled the reservoirs in all of Northern California,
    to way beyond capacity, even more so than now.

    The water pressure on Oroville Dam is too much for its
    nearly 50 year old structure, and water starts to leak badly.
    Klaxons sound throughout Oroville Dam as it fills up,
    and the order is given to abandon ship. General alert
    is sounded throughout Oroville, and the entire central valley,
    as Oroville Dam starts to founder, very similar to the way,
    that the Grand Teton Dam foundered

    One question that I have had from the very beginning.
    Why was Oroville Dam created as a earth embankment dam
    and not a concrete arch gravity dam

    Once the spillway is stopped again, and the new damage revealed
    it will become apparent to all, as to the terrible shape that
    Oroville Dam is now in.

    It is messed up worse than a soup sandwich.

    Regards to all deplorables,
    Nowski
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    unless you can prove it with your own research." Milton William Cooper

    "Life is a glass, half empty, of spoiled milk, sitting in a bed of thorns." Nowski

  31. #6311
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    The Dam itself is like a huge natural rock/earth barrier like a hillside, the problem occurred on the ES and MS spillways which were not designed to take huge overflows of turbulent water, it has been established that the MS was cracked and not repaired properly, the MS has probably held up on the upper half as the forces were not powerful enough to erode the surface because they hadn't gained enough momentum/acceleration/gravity at the top. Further downstream the forces sought out the weakness in the structure due to the lack of maintenance.
    I think they paid lip service to major maintenance as they thought it unnecessary, failure would not happen and the likelihood of the dam overflowing nil.........

    Most of the time the dams just sit there doing nothing, if it ain't broke don't fix it, it's too big to fail, you would be a lunatic to demand that the ES should be covered in concrete, that is still apparent on this forum........the DWR psyche lives on........
    Last edited by Richard; 03-22-2017 at 08:22 AM.

  32. #6312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowski View Post
    I am a very pessimistic doomer and I do not see the good in much
    of anything, only the bad, and not just the bad, but how bad
    is the bad going to be.

    Since the MS at Oroville Dam was destroyed, I have had
    several nightmares about the future of Oroville Dam.

    It happens of course at night, after several weeks of intense
    storms that have filled the reservoirs in all of Northern California,
    to way beyond capacity, even more so than now.

    The water pressure on Oroville Dam is too much for its
    nearly 50 year old structure, and water starts to leak badly.
    Klaxons sound throughout Oroville Dam as it fills up,
    and the order is given to abandon ship. General alert
    is sounded throughout Oroville, and the entire central valley,
    as Oroville Dam starts to founder, very similar to the way,
    that the Grand Teton Dam foundered

    One question that I have had from the very beginning.
    Why was Oroville Dam created as a earth embankment dam
    and not a concrete arch gravity dam

    Once the spillway is stopped again, and the new damage revealed
    it will become apparent to all, as to the terrible shape that
    Oroville Dam is now in.

    It is messed up worse than a soup sandwich.

    Regards to all deplorables,
    Nowski

    The Fat Man is convinced that they are looking in the wrong area, or are missing something, that there's a basement that's about to give way when more water hits the lake from upstream.

    The only think I can think of when he says this is that maybe the dam itself is starting to become undercut on the inside at the bottom of the lake someplace, off to the side is what he keeps projecting, way to the right of the MS. He keeps projecting gov't men looking at a huge crack in the ground through which all of the water disappears, and everyone is asking where did the water go. And he still thinks the town needs to be evacuated.
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  33. #6313
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    33,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The Dam itself is like a huge natural rock/earth barrier like a hillside, the problem occurred on the ES and MS spillways which were not designed to take huge overflows of turbulent water, it has been established that the MS was cracked and not repaired properly, the MS has probably held up on the upper half as the forces were not powerful enough to erode the surface because they hadn't gained enough momentum/acceleration/gravity at the top. Further downstream the forces sought out the weakness in the structure due to the lack of maintenance.
    I think they paid lip service to major maintenance as they thought it unnecessary, failure would not happen and the likelihood of the dam overflowing nil.........

    Most of the time the dams just sit there doing nothing, if it ain't fixed don't fix it, it's too big to fail, you would be a lunatic to demand that the ES should be covered in concrete, that is still apparent on this forum........the DWR psyche lives on........
    The images and videos I saw of the dam are just that. BUT when you go look at images of the whole kit and caboodle, before they filled the lake, there are stretches of what would NOW be the walls of the lake that were earthen, and then rock, and more earth, and more rock. All it takes is for one of those earthen spots to start eroding and then you have a secondary, uncontrollable, area where water can leave the lake and with violent force to all below.

    And I think this is what The Fat Man means when he keeps saying they're looking in the wrong place.

    Q. How many dams are there upstream from Oriville? And how many downstream from Oriville?
    People are quick to confuse and despise confidence as arrogance but that is common amongst those who have never accomplished anything in their lives and who have always played it safe not willing to risk failure.

  34. #6314
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    31,395
    As of now all positive outcomes are due to the MS not failing now nor in months/years to come until they stabilise the dam structure with "interesting" proposals.
    Last edited by Richard; 03-21-2017 at 05:16 PM.

  35. #6315
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    31,395
    Quote Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
    The images and videos I saw of the dam are just that. BUT when you go look at images of the whole kit and caboodle, before they filled the lake, there are stretches of what would NOW be the walls of the lake that were earthen, and then rock, and more earth, and more rock. All it takes is for one of those earthen spots to start eroding and then you have a secondary, uncontrollable, area where water can leave the lake and with violent force to all below.

    And I think this is what The Fat Man means when he keeps saying they're looking in the wrong place.

    Q. How many dams are there upstream from Oriville? And how many downstream from Oriville?
    I would like to see the ES reinforced as an impregnable permanent overflow channel for years to come, not just patched up, is this too much to ask for................

  36. #6316
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I would like to see the ES reinforced as an impregnable permanent overflow channel for years to come, not just patched up, is this too much to ask for................
    It might be too much to pay for. Engineering types would have to figure it out, instead of just doing it as a pro forma project that was never seriously thought to be used. It would need (I'll guess) something like a funnel to capture everything coming over the wall and guiding it to a smooth concrete spillway perhaps four or five times the width of the main spillway. It's a huge project. Just blowing some shotcrete on boulders won't even come close.

  37. #6317
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    13,851
    Quote Originally Posted by Countrymouse View Post
    You would 'think' so, bw, but I REALLY think you need to take into consideration the diagrams shared by Beach above. From this and earlier comments, I get the sense that he is knowledgeable about what he speaks.

    The flow of the water creates a "suction", as I understand it from the diagram---unless deliberate ventilation is supplied, that "suction" will pull all the water right up FLUSH with the surface behind it---no ROOM for any air to "flow in." That in turn creates friction/ pressure ON that back wall that the water is "hugging" (due to the suction) and (depending on the strength of whatever comprises that "back wall") can possibly begin eating into and destroy it.

    I am grateful for the hydraulics experts here like Surface Tension and Beach who can explain these things to us. Indeed we do have an abundance of talent here on TB2K.
    Beachs image?
    יְשׁוּעָה
    I am in competition with no one. I have no desire to play the game of being better than anyone. I am simply trying harder to be a better person than I was yesterday.
    TRUTH

  38. #6318
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Over there
    Posts
    5,114
    I was maintaining all along that the dam itself was safe - until I read the above article about the seepage. I'm going to look around because there's other articles and papers out there that goes in depth to just how serious this is. Though we are out of the way of it, it will have a major impact on ALL of California if the dam goes. I have seen oil slicks on the lake from when they tried to repair the two pipes under the dam, others saw it too. I have seen seepage right by the MS gates coming out from the concrete. It always left a puddle. I mentioned it several times to DWR workers and they just shrugged their shoulders and said nothing. A surveyor was up on the dam once a year (he's from LA), told me and DH that the dam moves and that the dam leaks. Never really thought too much about it, or maybe I just forgot about it. But with everything going on, it's all making sense to me. I'm living 1 mile from a complete disaster. I'm not moving, I'm going to stick around to the bitter end.
    Proud to be Deplorable, Irredeemable, a Scumbag and a bigot! Nothing wrong in being any of them.

  39. #6319
    Quote Originally Posted by medic38572 View Post
    Beachs image?
    Yes Medic, that was it. Thanks for posting it!

  40. #6320
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Kriya Yogi dwelling in enchanted land of Cascadia
    Posts
    13,847
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardou View Post
    Oroville Dam Inspectors Reported Water Seepage & Structural Issues since 2014
    Holy cow that article ratches the Doom up to an unbearable level!

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