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REL GENRL Gog/Magog = Russia/Ukraine
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  1. #1
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    Gog/Magog = Russia/Ukraine

    Fair use
    http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/i...est-putin.html

    The Ukraine will either go the way of the EU and the Ezekiel Gog/Magog prophecy will briefly slow down or the weight of the Putin response in a neutral manner (where both the EU and Russia work peacefully to solve the Ukrainian dispute) will gain the Ukrainian people respect or should Putin lose patience and send in troops to quell the riots, Putin will gain his objective either way seeing the Ukraine return under Russian domination where bible prophecy is on fastward meaning the Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17:1 conflict will be coming soon.

    The pre-Ezekiel Gog/Magog wars will occur before Russia (Gog) makes its move against Israel so if the Ukraine flirts with the EU and sees the EU backing down, the Ukraine will see the EU as a paper tiger offering no protection so the Ukraine after expermenting with the EU will join the Russian alliance as Bible prophecy has foretold. The merchants of Tarshish (Western nations) will prove themselves weak (Ezekiel 38:13) at the appointed time when Russia gathers all its Ezekiel 38:2-6 allies into its military.

    Magog= Ukraine and the former Soviet Muslim Asian Republics (Ezekiel 38:2)
    ___

  2. #2
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    Meshek and Tubal
    These nations today are in the modern country of Turkey, possibly parts of southern Russia and northern Iran.

    Meschek was located near what was known as Phrygia, in central and western Asia Minor, while Tubal was located in eastern Asia Minor. So with Meshek and Tubal, we are dealing with portions of modern Turkey. Today this region is predominantly Islamic.

    Magog
    The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, citing ancient Assyrian writings, places the location of Magog in the land mass between ancient Armenia and Media - in short, the Republics south of Russia and north of Israel, comprised of Azerbajian, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Chechnya, Turkey, Iran and Dagestan. Significantly, all of them are Muslim nations.

    This point is essential. Because we know that Gog – The Antichrist - will come from the land of Magog, which is definitely an Islamic region, it very unlikely that he will not be a Muslim. While I suppose that anything is possible, particularly in the distant future, it is very hard to imagine a non-Muslim ruling over any one of these nations, at least not anyone who doesn’t outwardly pose as a Muslim. Now, let’s move on to identify the remaining member states of Antichrist’s coalition.

    Persia
    Persia is modern day Iran.

    Cush
    Cush is also relatively easy to identify. Some Bible translations merely interpret Cush as Ethiopia, though this is not accurate. The Cush of Ezekiel’s day was far more northwest than the Ethiopia of today. In Scripture, Cush was often associated with Egypt and was a border nation to her:


    Ezekiel 29:9-10 - " Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD. Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol [Northern Egypt] to Aswan [Today in southern Egypt], as far as the border of Cush "

    The only legitimate identification of Cush then is modern Sudan, officially known as The Islamic Republic of Sudan since the 1989.

    Put
    Biblically, Put (or Phut) is the region west of Egypt. Today this is the nation of Libya.

    Gomer
    Gomer, it seems to be almost universally agreed upon among scholars, “refers to the Celtic Cimmerians of Crim-Tartary.” 8 Regarding the identification of Gomer, Baptist Pastor Fred Zaspel, accurately points out that:

    " Gomer is well known to the ancient world as Gimarrai of north central Asia Minor [Cappadocia]. These people are also known as the Cimmerians. This seems to be the simplest, most obvious interpretation. "

    So Gomer is Gimarra is Cimmeria is Cappadocia. Cappadocia is simply central Turkey. Again, another Islamic region.

    Togarmah
    Togarmah was a descendant of Noah through Japheth then Gomer (Gen.10:1-3). He is know to Assyrian records as Tilgarimmu… Tilgarimmu was a city state in Eastern Anatolia (Asia Minor, modern Turkey), more specifically, as Ryrie states, "the southeastern part of Turkey near the Syrian border." This identification is generally acknowledged by all.

    Once more then we have another region that is in present day Turkey.

    So, the coming Gog/Magog war is not against Russia, rather, it is against a coalition of Islamic nations...
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  3. #3
    Um, No...

    Sorry, but Gog is neither the antichrist or is he a group of nations , neither is he a land mass...

    He is a power, principality or fallen angel that rules above the land of Magog...

    Ez 38 twice calls Gog a prince...

    Dan 10 paints a picture of who the princes (as opposed to kings) are...

    Then we have;

    Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    And then we have a description of one of the things Jesus did when He rose from the dead;

    Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    JM2CW...
    "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled... For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth... Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Attributed to Jesus, the Lamb of God
    (Lk 21:32-36)


  4. #4
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    The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of[a] Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, [B]chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.

    The New Moody Atlas of the Bible p. 93 places Magog in Turkey


    The Zondervan Atlas of the Bible p. 83 places Magog in Turkey.


    The Holman Bible Atlas p. 36 places Magog in Turkey.


    The IVP Atlas of Bible History p. 18 also places Magog in Turkey.


    So, it is a leader of an Islamic alliance.

    We are seeing a war of Islam, fronted by the resurrected Caliph, that is healed from the "head wound" he received on October 29. 1923 when the Ottoman Empire officially ceased to exist.
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  5. #5
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    FFS

    they can't get the RIGHT SODDING COUNTRIES!!!!!

    morons
    who will save the puppies??

  6. #6
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    Matthew 24:24 - " For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "

    The Bible is an eastern book that deals, mainly, with the Jews and the Middle East.

    It is the western mind that constantly interjects western understanding into it. Such as forcing an European Beast and AntiChrist into verses that don't fit.

    As an example:

    Daniel 11:37-40 - " He shall regard neither the God[k] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain. "

    It is the western mind that says, "The AntiChrist must be gay" or "The AntiChrist must have no regard for the "desires" of Jewish women to birth the Savior".

    Daniel 7:25 - " He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute[d] the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. "

    It is western teaching that says the AntiChrist must be changing "cosmic laws".

    When, if we focus solely on the Middle East we can see:

    1. Islam seeks to subjugate the world to Sharia ( Changing all the laws of the land ).

    2. Islam's year one begins at the time of it's conquest of Medina in 622 AD, so that is year one to Muslims. The Islamic year is designated AH, or After Hijra, rather than BC or AD. Further, the Islamic Holy Day is Friday. The calendars are changed wherever Islam rules.

    3. Allah is a God not known to anyone's father and only came about in 600AD, the writers of the Bible can give descriptions to warn people but when the Bible was written, Islam did not exist, or they could have called it by name.

    4. The Qu'ran is full of verses calling the faithful to fight and kill unbelievers and claim the world through force. Allah is a God of war ( Fortress ).

    5. Look at the Billions in oil revenue that the Middle Eastern countries rake in every year. And, instead of using that money to enhance people's quality of living, they build madrass ( Islamic schools ) and mosques to promote Islam. They honor Allah with, "with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things."

    6. The saints are being persecuted, right now, on a scale never before seen. To the point where, in some areas, Christianity is/has become extinct and no Christians are left.

    There can be ZERO doubt that Islam is the Beast religion and the AntiChrist will come out of her but we, in the west, have been blinded by the western way of thinking ( Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson, John Walvoord, etc. ) and we NEED to look at the Bible through the Middle Eastern lens.

    That being said, the Bible, is a regional book and I think we may very well be IN the tribulation period. If not, all that remains is for the Caliph or Mahdi to reveal himself.

    When the Muslims declare the return of the Caliph or Mahdi, the AntiChrist will have been revealed and there will be no more doubt ( in my mind and according to Biblical prophecy ) the time. It is unfortunate that so many are missing the evidence that is staring them in the face and continue to try to fit round pegs into the square holes of God's word.

    Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood To Begin Caliphate Plans

    Muslim Brotherhood’s Dream: Create Islamic Caliphate And Give Allah’s Law The Power To Speak, ‘The Capital Of The Caliphate … Is Jerusalem’

    Hamas MP and Cleric: The Caliphate is Coming and in a Few Years a ‘Great Massacre of Jews’

    A preview of New Caliphate - Israel's Prophetic Future

    Reflections of the Caliph Fable, the Ten Architects and the Philosopher





    If Islam had not "recovered from the head wound" that it suffered in when the caliphate was eliminated in 1925, if they didn't deny the deity of Jesus, if they afforded equal rights to women, if they didn't promote the advancement of their religion through war, if they hadn't openly declared war on the "people of the Book" by saying they would conquer, ""First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people" ( Jews and Christians ), if Islam didn't look to change the laws ( sharia ) and the calendar ( Islam year one is our 622AD ), if, if, if...

    The Bible warns about everything that Islam is and does.

    So, if Islam wasn't doing, exactly, what it is doing right now; then all the prophecies of God would be inaccurate and false, the Bible would be just another book of stories and God would have been proven false.

    Just something to think about...
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  7. #7
    Chapter 38
    38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
    Gog
    That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree. The whole passage should be read in connection with Zechariah 12:1-4 ; 14:1-9 ; Matthew 24:14-30 ; Revelation 14:14-20 ; 19:17-21, "gog" is the prince, "Magog," his land. The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification. Russia and the northern powers have been the latest persecutors of dispersed Israel, and it is congruous both with divine justice and with the covenants (e.g. (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18") See Scofield " Deuteronomy 30:3 " that destruction should fall at the climax of the last mad attempt to exterminate the remnant of Israel in Jerusalem. The whole prophecy belongs to the yet future "day of Jehovah" ; Isaiah 2:10-22 ; Revelation 19:11-21 and to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:14 See Scofield " Revelation 19:19 " but includes also the final revolt of the nations at the close of the kingdom-age. Revelation 20:7-9 .
    38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    Gog
    See note 2, (See Scofield "Ezekiel 38:2") .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby.knight View Post
    Chapter 38
    38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
    Gog
    That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree. The whole passage should be read in connection with Zechariah 12:1-4 ; 14:1-9 ; Matthew 24:14-30 ; Revelation 14:14-20 ; 19:17-21, "gog" is the prince, "Magog," his land. The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification. Russia and the northern powers have been the latest persecutors of dispersed Israel, and it is congruous both with divine justice and with the covenants (e.g. (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18") See Scofield " Deuteronomy 30:3 " that destruction should fall at the climax of the last mad attempt to exterminate the remnant of Israel in Jerusalem. The whole prophecy belongs to the yet future "day of Jehovah" ; Isaiah 2:10-22 ; Revelation 19:11-21 and to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:14 See Scofield " Revelation 19:19 " but includes also the final revolt of the nations at the close of the kingdom-age. Revelation 20:7-9 .
    38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    Gog
    See note 2, (See Scofield "Ezekiel 38:2") .
    Sorry, but Schofield's is 100% wrong.

    There is no basis in history for Meshech and Tubal to be identified as Moscow and Tobolsk.

    Honestly, I don't know how I could provide any more evidence than this...

    IVP Atlas of Bible History


    The New Moody Atlas of the Bible


    The Holman Bible Atlas


    Zondervan Atlas of the Bible


    Harper Collins Atlas of Bible History


    ESV Bible Atlas


    Baker’s Bible Atlas


    The Macmillan Bible Atlas


    IVP New Bible Atlas


    - The Oxford Bible Atlas says of Meshech and Tubal that they are, “regions in Asia Minor [Turkey].”

    —Old Testament scholar Daniel I. Block, in the New International Commentary on Ezekiel, says, “It seems best to interpret Magog as a contraction of an original māt Gūgi, ‘land of Gog,’ and to see here a reference to the territory of Lydia in western Anatolia [Turkey].”

    —The Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary states, “Magog, possibly meaning ‘the land of Gog,’ was no doubt in Asia Minor [Turkey] and may refer to Lydia.”

    —The IVP Bible Background Commentary lists Magog, Meshech, Tubal, and Togarmah as “sections or peoples in Asia Minor” [Turkey].

    —The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, under the entry for “Magog,” states, “It is clear that Lydia [Turkey] is meant, and that by ‘Magog,’ we must understand, ‘the land of Gog.’”

    —The Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary places Magog in Anatolia, or modern-day Turkey.

    —The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “It seems more probable that . . . Magog should be identified with Lydia [Turkey]. On the other hand, as Mosoch and Thubal were nations belonging to Asia Minor, it would seem from the text of Ezechiel that Magog must be in that part of the world. Finally, others with Josephus identify Magog with Scythia, but in antiquity this name was used to designate vaguely any northern population.”

    —Hippolytus of Rome, one of the most important Christian theologians of the third century, in his Chronicon, connected Magog to the Galatians in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey.

    —Pliny the Elder a first-century Roman military commander, author, naturalist, and philosopher placed Magog on the border of Syria and modern day Turkey.

    —Maimonides, also known as Rambam, the revered Jewish sage, in Hichot Terumot, also identified Magog as being on the border of modern day Turkey.

    —Pastor author and well-known prophecy teacher Mark Hitchcock places Meshech and Tubal in modern day Turkey.

    —Author Joel C. Rosenberg also places both Meshech and Tubal in modern day Turkey.

    —Likewise Dr. Thomas Ice, executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center says, “Some Bible teachers in the past have taught that Meshech is a reference to Moscow and thus refers to Russia. This is the view of The Scofield Reference Bible, Harry Rimmer and Hal Lindsey… The identification of Meshech with Moscow is merely based upon a similarity of sound. There is not real historical basis to support such a view, therefore, it must be rejected.” Ice thus agrees with Hitchcock and places Meshech and Tubal in Turkey: “The historical record, as was the case with Meshech, is that Tubal and his descendants immigrated to the area southeast of the Black Sea in what is modern day Turkey. Meshech and Tubal clearly provide the population base for the country we now call Turkey.”
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  9. #9
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    I always found it more than curious that a group of rabbis wrote a letter to the “esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, (Ezekiel 38:1) leader of the west.”



    http://www.texemarrs.com/042008/gog_...ll_of_bush.htm

  10. #10
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    Nicely done Ragnarok, I've seen this info before but never seen the more modern maps that you've provided. They make it a lot easier to see where Gog and Magog are coming from.

  11. #11
    Joel Rosenberg, author of Epicenter, places Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal as Russia and the former Soviet republics. He calls Turkey, Armenia and other Turkish countries: Gomer and Beth-togarmah.

    Source: Epicenter, pg 132

  12. #12
    The map Bible History Online places Magog just north of the Caspian Sea, which would be Russia or Kazakhstan. Gomer is north of the Black Sea, which would be Ukraine. Tubal is modern Turkey.

    Edited to add link to article on Table of Nations:

    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/2-...f-nations.html

  13. #13
    Answers In Genesis places Magog as Scythia, north of the Black Sea, and Gomer as modern Turkey. Answers in Genesis quotes Josephus.


    "For example, Josephus mentions that Gomer, one of Noah’s grandsons, had descendants that the Greeks called Galatians! If you recall, Paul wrote an epistle to the Galatians who were living in Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey).

    Another intriguing connection is that of Magog—also one of Noah’s grandsons. Josephus’s research reveals that the Scythians were descendants of Magog. The Scythians are now a variety of people groups living north of the Black Sea."

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...is-chapter-ten

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama Ten Bears View Post
    The map Bible History Online places Magog just north of the Caspian Sea, which would be Russia or Kazakhstan. Gomer is north of the Black Sea, which would be Ukraine. Tubal is modern Turkey.

    Edited to add link to article on Table of Nations:

    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/2-...f-nations.html

    Answers In Genesis places Magog as Scythia, north of the Black Sea, and Gomer as modern Turkey.
    Correct.

    The link that connects all the nations mentioned in Ezekiel is that all are Muslim.
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama Ten Bears View Post
    The map Bible History Online places Magog just north of the Caspian Sea, which would be Russia or Kazakhstan. Gomer is north of the Black Sea, which would be Ukraine. Tubal is modern Turkey.

    Edited to add link to article on Table of Nations:

    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/2-...f-nations.html
    Just thought this should be highlighted in lieu of current events.



    Turkey mobilizes for Crimea after 160 years
    Author: Milliyet (Turkey) Posted March 4, 2014

    The Crimean peninsula, scene of one of most important military struggles of the last years of the Ottoman Empire, has made a surprising comeback to the world scene after the events in Ukraine. Russia's moves of sending troops to Crimea, in an effort to sever it from Ukraine, prompted Ankara and Western capitals to react. Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutolgu, who went to Kiev last Friday, met with the former speaker of the Tatar National Assembly, Mustafa Abdulcemil Kirimoglu, and declared: “If the term is appropriate, we are in 'mobilization' to defend the rights of our kin in Crimea by doing whatever is necessary.”
    Summary⎙ Print In its dealings with the crisis in Ukraine, Ankara is showing particular interest in the Crimean peninsula, given that Turkey has deep ties with the ethnic Tartars in this region.

    The word "mobilization," which Davutoglu had selected carefully. was an excellent indicator, although not with military connotation, of the urgency of the issue for Turkey. Turkey, which had refrained from taking a too-visible position about the Ukrainian popular revolt so as not to upset Russia, however took a clear position siding with the West when the issue became Crimea. A senior official I spoke with yesterday, March 3, said: “Crimea has important strategic importance for all of Europe. Perhaps Syria and Egypt are more dramatic issues, more mediagenic, but Crimea is a more strategic one.”

    Over the weekend there were intensive contacts about Crimea between Western capitals and Ankara. Davutoglu had frequent telephone contacts with German, US and Eastern European allies. Crimea is important for Ankara not only because of its location as a gate to the Black Sea, but also because of Muslim Crimean Tatars.

    Crimean Tatars, who were part of the Ottoman Empire till the end of the 18th century, are ethnically and culturally close to Turkey. Crimean Tatars, who were subjected to deportation and ethnic pressure during the Cold War, are actually an extension of Anatolian geography just like Kirkuk Turkmen. They speak Turkish and since the last quarter of the 19th century there has been a sizable Crimean diaspora in Turkey.

    Turkey believes that the rights of the Crimean Tatars, with whom it has been in close relations with since the first days of the republic, will be better preserved not under Russian control but within the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Turkey’s Agency for Cooperation and Coordination (TIKA) and other institutions had established close ties with the Crimean Tatars who had been trying to reassert their identities.

    Foreign Ministry sources I spoke with yesterday said: “We are not looking at Ukraine solely from a Crimean perspective. But it is also true that Crimea has special importance for us. They speak Turkish and we have deep cultural ties with Crimean Tatars. Historically, Crimea was a part of the Ottoman Empire.”

    Davutoglu in his Kiev contacts emphasized the importance of territorial integrity of Ukraine and pointed to the need for the new government to be “all-embracing” instead of provoking pro-Russia elements. But the signs on the ground point to an escalation of the crisis. Reports reaching Ankara and EU capitals on Saturday said Russia was launching what appears to an invasion of Crimea. Even before the decision of the Russian parliament, 6,000 Russian soldiers had surrounded the state offices, took over the airports and closed the air space. Turkish officials say these developments are causing concern.

    A senior official said before anything else Ankara favors the territorial integrity of Ukraine, and added: “On Ukraine and Crimea we share the positions of the West.” This, in a way, paints a picture about the balance of forces in Europe 160 years ago.

    The Crimean peninsula was separated from the Ottoman Empire with the 1774 Karlowitz Treaty and became the cause of a similar strategic struggle between the European powers and Russia in the mid-19th century. In the 1853-56 Crimean War, the Ottomans fought alongside the British and French against Russia, despite the extremely high costs it had to pay.
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/poli...edium=twitter#
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  16. #16
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    The antiChrist is called the Assyrian.

    Further, Daniel 9:26 states:

    Daniel 9:26 - " And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. "

    So, if we can identify these people, we will have irrefutable proof as to the origin of the AntiChrist.

    Common western teaching is that since it was the Roman Legions under Titus who destroyed the city and the temple, the AntiChrist must come from Europe. This is where we get the teaching's of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and Herb Peters ( to name a few ).

    However, the Roman form of conquest was to assimilate the nations that it conquered and while the people would be considered citizens of Rome, they were not the "people" of Rome.

    The Tenth Roman legion was responsible for breeching the wall and setting fire to the temple, destroying it.

    However, the Tenth Roman legion was comprised of Syrians and Turks.

    Don't believe me?

    Check it out:

    Question: What ethnicity comprised the Roman Tenth Legion that destroyed the Jewish temple in 70 AD?

    Answer: In 70 AD the Roman Tenth Legion was comprised primarily of Syrians and Turks.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_ethni...emple_in_70_AD
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

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    If you want to understand Gog of Magog then understand Gog and Magog!

    Revelation 20: 7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.

    Do you know who Israel is? Do you know the about the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city?

    Same situation different time! The first within the tribulation era the last after the Millennial reign of Christ.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJC View Post
    If you want to understand Gog of Magog then understand Gog and Magog!

    Revelation 20: 7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.

    Do you know who Israel is? Do you know the about the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city?

    Same situation different time! The first within the tribulation era the last after the Millennial reign of Christ.

    I have an understanding of it as posted above.

    Please, let's try not to drift...

    PLEASE!










    Turkey at the Crossroads
    by Svante E. Cornell
    Middle East Quarterly
    Spring 2014

    ...

    Erdoğan's increasingly authoritarian traits had already begun to cause concern within the movement. An important, centrist faction loyal to the more conciliatory posture of President Gül opposed Erdoğan's ambitions. Even more importantly, so did Turkey's largest social movement: the Fethullah Gülen community, popularly known as the cemaat. Over the past three decades, this community has grown into a globalized movement involved in education, business, and media, led by its founder from a resort in rural Pennsylvania. Moreover, its representatives are known to have influence in key areas of the bureaucracy, such as the police and judiciary—but importantly, also in the middle ranks of the military.

    ...

    Erdoğan was prime minister, but Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül wielded nearly as much influence and played a crucial role as a balancing and moderating force on Erdoğan.

    ...

    Developments have not been limited to posturing. Most important is the consolidation of the Fethullah Gülen movement's support for Gül. Given the financial and media resources available to the Gülen movement, such support is crucial for Gül's chances of standing up to Erdoğan.

    ...Under Gül's leadership, whether as a party of its own or a revamped AKP, this political force would for all practical purposes resemble Turgut Özal's ANAP, which unified religious conservatives, liberals, and Turkish nationalists. Özal may be an example in more than one way. Just like Gül, Özal came from the Orthodox Sunni Naqshbandi tradition, but was conciliatory and strongly pro-Western.

    ...

    The core AKP leadership is a product of the political tradition of the Milli Görüş movement, founded by Necmettin Erbakan, and consists of members and followers of the Iskender Paşa wing of the Khaledi branch of the Naqshbandi order, an order that is unique in tracing its lineage to Caliph Abu Bakr rather than Ali. The Khaledi branch is best known for having reinforced traditional Islamic tenets of the order and for its fierce resistance to the westernizing reforms of the Ottoman Empire in the nineteenth century.

    The Naqshbandis were driven underground by the proclamation of the Turkish republic and the closure of the religious orders but became increasingly involved in politics after Atatürk's death, seeking to revive religious values in Turkey. This move into politics led to a cross-fertilization with the growing political Islamic movement in the Middle East. Figures like Jamal al-Din Afghani and Sayyid Qutb and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood movement formed the intellectual inspiration for the developing Turkish political, Islamic movement. The broader Islamic movement of the Middle East was brought to Turkey by publications edited by Eşref Edip, who had lived in Egypt, was deeply influenced by the Brotherhood, and provided Erbakan's intellectual underpinnings. Milli Göruş is deeply rooted in political Islam, and its members pay less attention to the Turkish ethnic bond than to the broader Muslim identity. Furthermore, after 1979, a considerable portion of Turkish Islamists developed admiration for the Iranian revolution.

    The Gülen community, in contrast, stems from the Nur movement, which has a tradition of strongly objecting to direct involvement in politics. Its members believe that such involvement would create a conflict of interest and weaken the movement's main aim: to instill in its members, imana hizmet, or "service to the faith." The movement's founder, Bediüzzaman Said Nursi, remained loyal to this tradition and even overtly expressed his disapproval of his friend Edip's establishment of an Islamic Democratic Party in 1951. Some followers of the Nur and Qadiri movements joined with Erbakan in the late 1960s but fell out with him by the mid-1970s.

    The Gülen movement, however, has traditionally refrained from supporting political Islam and from direct participation in politics: It terms itself "civil Islam" in contrast to "political Islam." It, nevertheless, offered passive support to Turkey's successive center-right parties—the Democrat, Justice, Motherland, and True Path parties, as well as Bülent Ecevit's Democratic Left Party when Ecevit moved to the center in 1999-2002. While these parties included people close to the movement, one would be hard-pressed to identify any core Gülenists in active politics. These parties supported religious freedom and sought to appeal to conservative Muslims and allowed the Gülen movement to expand its role in society, particularly in the areas of education, business, and media. Importantly, the Gülen movement never extended any support to Erbakan.

    Gülen also developed a new outlook. His movement sought to synthesize traditional Islam and Turkey's modernization. Moreover, his movement was warm to Turkish nationalism, and many of its members had a past in the ülkücü or "idealist" nationalist organizations prior to the 1980 military coup. Many nationalists were also profoundly impressed by the growing international reach of Gülen's schools, in which the Turkish language had a prominent role. This led the Gülen movement to be perfectly placed when the military junta developed the concept of a Turkish-Islamic synthesis to counter what it saw as the main threat, Soviet-supported leftist movements. When the military endorsed the synthesis between Turkish nationalism and Sunni Islam as an official ideology, the main, if inadvertent, effect was to propel the Gülen movement to prominence.

    The Gülen movement, with its strong objection to direct involvement in politics, has clashed with Erdoğan on a number of domestic and international issues. The movement's leader, Fethullah Gülen, criticized the Gaza flotilla incident, which he termed a "defying of authority" for failing to seek Israeli approval for its delivery of aid. Erdoğan, on the other hand, defended the operation, accusing Israel of using excessive force against the flotilla.
    The Erdoğan-Gülen Falling Out

    Given these diverging perspectives, Erdoğan and the Gülen movement eventually clashed on a number of domestic and international issues. The first public rift was in the realm of foreign affairs. The Gülen movement had expanded its horizons beyond Turkey and became globalized, making it increasingly sensitive to the broader balances and nuances of world politics—in sharp contrast to the narrow mindset characterizing the Milli Görüş movement. As a result, the Gülen movement is notable for the absence of the anti-Western, anti-Zionist, and anti-Semitic reflexes that are prevalent among other Islamic political groups worldwide, including the core AKP. This divergence became evident following the 2010 Gaza flotilla incident, which led to sharp and enduring anti-Israel rhetoric from AKP leaders. But in an interview to The Wall Street Journal that even surprised many of his supporters, Gülen stated his disapproval of the flotilla initiative, which he termed a "defying of authority" for failing to seek Israeli approval for its delivery of aid.[14]

    Iran developed as another bone of contention. The Gülen movement's media outlets have long been scathing in their rhetoric against the Iranian theocratic regime, in a way that has often generated disbelief among traditional Islamists in the AKP. Gülenists even worked to undermine AKP foreign minister Ahmet Davutoğlu's efforts to improve ties with Iran. It is no coincidence that the December 2013 corruption scandal targeted the Iranian money laundering activities of the AKP government.

    Domestically, the Kurdish question was the most consequential issue. The AKP's Islamist and liberal wings supported Erdoğan's Kurdish opening as they shared a tendency to downplay Turkish ethnic identity. However, the Gülenists shared the unwillingness of their secular Kemalist predecessors to compromise on the country's unitary structure and the primacy of the Turkish language. The February 2012 crisis was prompted by Gülenist opposition to the AKP's peace talks with Abdullah Öcalan, imprisoned leader of the PKK (Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan—Kurdistan Workers' Party).

    ...The Gülen movement operates up to a third of the estimated 4,000 prep schools in Turkey. The schools are an important recruiting tool, and it is there that many if not most of the movement's past, present, and future followers have been identified and cultivated.

    ...

    As for the anti-corruption raid, there can be little doubt that it was a response triggered by supporters of Fethullah Gülen to Erdoğan's plans to eliminate their clout within the Turkish state. Gülen denies any form of contact with the prosecutors in the case. While that is plausibly true, it is clear through his public statements and sermons that he has taken a more public and aggressive political stance than ever before. His much-noted December 23 mubahala—an Islamic prayer calling for a curse from God on anyone who has committed a transgression—was unprecedented and constituted a direct challenge to Erdoğan's legitimacy. Similarly, newspapers linked to the Gülen movement such as Zaman and Taraf have published incriminating evidence, often obtained in undisclosed ways. Yet crucially, as in the Gezi protests, Gülen's followers are targeting not the AKP as a party but Erdoğan as a person. It is notable that the prosecutors in question undoubtedly possess vast troves of evidence implicating government officials in wrong-doing, yet they specifically chose to target four ministers known to be the closest to Erdoğan.

    ... The corruption probe, by contrast, was highly organized and driven by a determined force within the Turkish bureaucracy with a clear purpose—undermining and eventually toppling Erdoğan's rule. It raises obvious questions about this force, which in turn has rekindled a growing debate about the nature of the Gülen movement, its ultimate goals, and not least, the methods it uses.

    It must be noted that the growth of the Gülen movement's influence stands in contrast to its public assurances of being a non-political, civil society organization solely dedicated to service to society. Similarly, the well-documented judicial excesses of the Ergenekon and Sledgehammer investigations, which the movement unreservedly endorsed and championed, stand in contrast to its stated commitment to the rule of law and Turkey's EU membership process. On the other hand, the Gülen movement is a dynamic social force, which appears to be in continuous evolution, another factor that distinguishes it from the intellectual stagnation and decay of the core AKP.

    Importantly, the Gülen movement appears acutely aware that direct involvement in politics would doom its cohesion and standing in society. This provides an asymmetry to the current struggle between the movement and the AKP that implies it cannot be interpreted simply as a power struggle between two contenders. Many Turkish experts correctly point out that the risk is instead a return to a form of indirect elite tutelage over Turkish democracy, this time from the Gülen movement rather than the Kemalists, involving unelected forces limiting the workings of the political system. And indeed, if the Gülen movement manages effectively to help topple Turkey's strongest politician since Atatürk after having helped topple the military tutelage regime, all political forces in Turkey are likely to think twice before defying the movement.

    That said, the Gülen movement is a reality in Turkish society. As a strongly rooted network without parallel in the country, no one should doubt its staying power, or that regardless of the outcome of the current crisis, it stands to wield significant influence over Turkey's direction in coming decades. The same cannot be said about Erdoğan.

    Full Article Here:
    http://www.meforum.org/3767/erdogan-downfall










    Imam Gulen: Meet “the Most Dangerous Islamist on Planet Earth”; He lives in Pennsylvania
    http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/34651

    U.S. charter schools tied to powerful Turkish imam
    Over the past decade, followers of the mysterious Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen have opened scores of charter schools in the U.S. He's the spiritual leader of a growing and increasingly influential force in the Muslim world -- known as "The Gulen Movement" -- with millions upon millions of disciples who compare him to Ghandi and Martin Luther King.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_16...-turkish-imam/

    The Gülen Movement: A New Islamic World Order
    Currently, there are about 125 Gülen schools spread out over 25 states. One school in Philadelphia receives some $3 million annually in taxpayer money. "They work through the education system. Their main tool is educating kids"
    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/201...c-world-order/

    List of Gulen Charter Schools in the US
    http://turkishinvitations.weebly.com...s-schools.html

    Charter School Scandals
    http://charterschoolscandals.blogspo...n-schools.html

    Stealth Islamist Charter Schools Under Investigation
    http://frontpagemag.com/2012/arnold-...investigation/

    US Gulen Charter Schools Islamic Taxpayer Funded - 134 Schools in 26 States
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../2911814/posts

    Islam Taught in Charter Schools
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/2011/971/

    Imam Gulen's Website
    http://www.fethullahgulen.org/

    FBI Launches investigation of Gulen and his movement
    http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/34766
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  19. #19
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    EU politicians and bureaucrats work to promote Islam and flood Europe with Muslims, and they are working hand in hand with Saudi Arabia to do this.

    The same is being done to you in America.

    Fascism/Nazism also worked hand in hand with Islam.

    It still does.
    "Foul canker of fair virtuous action, Vile blaster of the freshest blooms on earth, Envys abhorred child, Detraction, I here expose, to thy all-tainting breath, The issue of my brain: snarl, rail, bark, bite, Know that my spirit scorns Detraction's spite." and "Speak, speak, let terror strike slaves mute, Much danger makes great hearts most resolute." both John Marston quotes (1576 - 1634).

  20. #20
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    Isaiah 19:2-4 - " “So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians; And they will each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor, City against city and kingdom against kingdom. “Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them; And I will confound their strategy, So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead And to mediums and spiritists. “Moreover, I will deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master, And a [c]mighty king will rule over them,” declares the Lord [d]God of hosts. "

    Daniel 11:14 - " Now in those times many will rise up against the king of the South; the violent ones among your people will also lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall down. "




    Isaiah says their will be a civil war in Egypt. We have seen this fulfilled in the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak, "The violent ones" came against the king, brother against brother.

    Daniel 11:14 predicts that the uprising will fail and this is happening right now, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas have been outlawed in Egypt.

    Egypt, Dealing a Blow to the Muslim Brotherhood, Deems It a Terrorist Group
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/26/wo...roup.html?_r=0

    Egypt Outlaws Hamas Activity in Another Blow to Muslim Brotherhood Ally
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...herhood-ally/#



    And the people of Egypt are looking to cast off the Muslim yoke and elect a secular president.

    Egypt army chief Abdel Fatah al-Sisi indicates he will run for presidency
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...run-presidency



    It appears that the secular government will stay in power until the AntiChrist comes to retake Egypt in the name of Islam:

    Daniel 11:24 - "He will come into a province’s richest places untroubled and will do what his fathers and grandfathers never could. He will hand out plunder, spoil, and wealth to them. He will make plans against fortresses, but only for a time."



    Daniel says that the AntiChrist will hand out plunder and wealth. He will make plans against "fortresses" ( powerful nations ).

    The Haddith states:

    The Prophet said… He will divide the property, and will govern the people by the Sunnah of their Prophet and establish Islam on Earth. He will remain seven years, then die[/u], and the Muslims will pray over him
    - Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 36, Number 4273, Narrated by Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin -

    In those years my community will enjoy a time of happiness such as they have never experienced before. Heaven will send rain upon them in torrents, the earth will not withhold any of its plants, and wealth will be available to all. A man will stand and say, “Give to me Mahdi!” and he will say, “Take.”
    - At-Tabarani, Related by Abu Hurayra, as quoted by ‘Izzat and ‘Arif, p. 9 -



    Daniel continues:

    Daniel 11:25-26 - “ Then with a large army he will gather his strength and courage against the southern king. The southern king, with a large and super powerful army, will prepare for war, but he won’t endure because they will make plans against him. Those who eat the king’s provisions will destroy him. His army will be overrun. Many will die. "

    The AntiChrist comes to eclaim Egypt in the name of Islam and the secular government is doomed by the Islamist elements that are embedded within it, "Those who eat the kings provisions" will destroy him.



    AFTER this war, the two kings ( Egypt and the AntiChrist ) will reconcile and begin to plot against the Jews but their plans will not succeed.

    Daniel 11:27 - " These two kings, with their minds set on evil, will sit at one table, telling lies, but with no success because the end will come at the set time. "



    The AntiChrist then returns to his country ( Turkey? ) and then break his covenant with Israel, ushering in the Tribulation.

    Daniel 11:28- " [u]He will return to his country with great wealth and set his mind against a holy covenant. He will do what he wants and then return to his country. "



    In Daniel 11 verse 30 we see the intervention of the western nations.

    Daniel 11:30 - " Kittim ships will fight against him, and he will retreat in fear. He will rage against a holy covenant and will do what he wants. Then he will pay special attention to those who violate a holy covenant. "



    Daniel 11:36-45 recaps:

    36 “The king will do whatever he wants. He will exalt himself, making himself greater than any god. He will say unbelievable things against the God of gods. He will succeed until the doom is completed, because what is decreed must take place. 37 He will give no thought to the gods of his fathers, nor to the god cherished by women. He will give no thought to any god, because he will make himself greater than all of them. 38 In their place, he will worship a god of walled fortresses. With gold and silver, rare stones and precious things, he will worship a god his fathers did not acknowledge. 39 He will deal with walled fortresses with the help of a foreign god. He will heap rewards on those who support him, making them rule over many and dividing up the land for a price. 40 At the end time, the southern king will attack him. The northern king will storm against him with chariots and horses and many ships. He will invade countries, sweeping over them like a flood. 41 He will invade the beautiful country, and tens of thousands will die. But Edom, Moab, and the best of the Ammonites will escape from his hand. 42 He will extend his power into other countries. Even Egypt won’t escape. 43 He will take control of Egypt’s hidden treasures of gold, silver, and all its precious things. Libyans and Cushites will follow at his feet. 44 But reports from the east and north will alarm him, and in a great rage he will set off to devastate and destroy many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain. But he will come to his end, and no one will help him. "

    1. Islam seeks to subjugate the world to Sharia ( Changing all the laws of the land ).

    2. Islam's year one begins at the time of it's conquest of Medina in 622 AD, so that is year one to Muslims. The Islamic year is designated AH, or After Hijra, rather than BC or AD. Further, the Islamic Holy Day is Friday. The calendars are changed wherever Islam rules.

    3. Allah is a God not known to anyone's father and only came about in 600AD, the writers of the Bible can give descriptions to warn people but when the Bible was written, Islam did not exist, or they could have called it by name.

    4. The Qu'ran is full of verses calling the faithful to fight and kill unbelievers and claim the world through force. Allah is a God of war ( Fortress ).

    5. Look at the Billions in oil revenue that the Middle Eastern countries rake in every year. And, instead of using that money to enhance people's quality of living, they build madrass ( Islamic schools ) and mosques to promote Islam. They honor Allah with, "with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things."

    6. The saints are being persecuted, right now, on a scale never before seen. To the point where, in some areas, Christianity is/has become extinct and no Christians are left.

    There can be ZERO doubt that Islam is the Beast religion and the AntiChrist will come out of her but we, in the west, have been blinded by the western way of thinking ( Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson, John Walvoord, etc. ) and we NEED to look at the Bible through the Middle Eastern lens.

    That being said, the Bible, is a regional book and I think we may very well be IN the tribulation period. If not, all that remains is for the Caliph or Mahdi to reveal himself.

    When the Muslims declare the return of the Caliph or Mahdi, the AntiChrist will have been revealed and there will be no more doubt ( in my mind and according to Biblical prophecy ) the time. It is unfortunate that so many are missing the evidence that is staring them in the face and continue to try to fit round pegs into the square holes of God's word.

    Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood To Begin Caliphate Plans
    http://www.investigativeproject.org/...aliphate-plans

    Muslim Brotherhood’s Dream: Create Islamic Caliphate And Give Allah’s Law The Power To Speak, ‘The Capital Of The Caliphate … Is Jerusalem’
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...2#.Uvj7B4yPLxN

    Hamas MP and Cleric: The Caliphate is Coming and in a Few Years a ‘Great Massacre of Jews’
    http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com...sacre-of-jews/

    A preview of New Caliphate - Israel's Prophetic Future
    http://www.israelspropheticfuture.or...wCaliphate.pdf

    Reflections of the Caliph Fable, the Ten Architects and the Philosopher
    http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~ellendo/rittel/JP-TenArch.pdf
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

  21. #21
    Thanks. I will read after lunch. I too see Islam in the end time. Walid Shoebat has good videos.

  22. #22
    Ragnarok, thanks for all you've posted and sent me. I am at work and don't have time to read or respond, but will later this week. I think all your presentations are very well thought out and refreshing. It all makes so much more sense than say, Prince William being the anti-christ. That's just such a stretch to me.
    If you need something, ask God. If you don't, thank Him.

  23. #23
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnersmom View Post
    Ragnarok, thanks for all you've posted and sent me. I am at work and don't have time to read or respond, but will later this week. I think all your presentations are very well thought out and refreshing. It all makes so much more sense than say, Prince William being the anti-christ. That's just such a stretch to me.
    For anyone to declare a European or Western AntiChrist, such as Prince William, Prince Charles, George Bush, Obama, Putin, Javier Solona, etc...

    They MUST pass the litmus test set in God's Word.

    If they can't, then that teaching is false and can be disregarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
    The antiChrist is called the Assyrian.

    Further, Daniel 9:26 states:

    Daniel 9:26 - " And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. "

    So, if we can identify these people, we will have irrefutable proof as to the origin of the AntiChrist.

    Common western teaching is that since it was the Roman Legions under Titus who destroyed the city and the temple, the AntiChrist must come from Europe. This is where we get the teaching's of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and Herb Peters ( to name a few ).

    However, the Roman form of conquest was to assimilate the nations that it conquered and while the people would be considered citizens of Rome, they were not the "people" of Rome.

    The Tenth Roman legion was responsible for breeching the wall and setting fire to the temple, destroying it.

    However, the Tenth Roman legion was comprised of Syrians and Turks.

    Don't believe me?

    Check it out:

    Question: What ethnicity comprised the Roman Tenth Legion that destroyed the Jewish temple in 70 AD?

    Answer: In 70 AD the Roman Tenth Legion was comprised primarily of Syrians and Turks.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_ethni...emple_in_70_AD
    Ephesians 5:11 - " Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ”

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