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REL GENRL A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
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  1. #1
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    A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife

    a


    Photograph by Karen L. King
    A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife

    By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

    Published: September 18, 2012 899 Comments



    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife ...’ ”


    Evan McGlinn for The New York Times

    Professor Karen L. King, in her office at Harvard Divinity School, held a fragment of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a

    1793204_G.jpg

    The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.”
    The finding was made public in Rome on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies by Karen L. King, a historian who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity.
    The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.
    Even with many questions unsettled, the discovery could reignite the debate over whether Jesus was married, whether Mary Magdalene was his wife and whether he had a female disciple. These debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say. But they are relevant today, when global Christianity is roiling over the place of women in ministry and the boundaries of marriage.
    The discussion is particularly animated in the Roman Catholic Church, where despite calls for change, the Vatican has reiterated the teaching that the priesthood cannot be opened to women and married men because of the model set by Jesus.
    Dr. King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday.
    She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.
    But the discovery is exciting, Dr. King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.
    “This fragment suggests that some early Christians had a tradition that Jesus was married,” she said. “There was, we already know, a controversy in the second century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.”
    Dr. King first learned about what she calls “The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife” when she received an e-mail in 2010 from a private collector who asked her to translate it. Dr. King, 58, specializes in Coptic literature, and has written books on the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary of Magdala, Gnosticism and women in antiquity.
    The owner, who has a collection of Greek, Coptic and Arabic papyri, is not willing to be identified by name, nationality or location, because, Dr. King said, “He doesn’t want to be hounded by people who want to buy this.”
    When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife.
    The owner took the fragment to the Divinity School in December 2011 and left it with Dr. King. In March, she carried the fragment in her red handbag to New York to show it to two papyrologists: Roger Bagnall, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, at New York University, and AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University.
    They examined the scrap under sharp magnification. It was very small — only 4 by 8 centimeters. The lettering was splotchy and uneven, the hand of an amateur, but not unusual for the time period, when many Christians were poor and persecuted.
    It was written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that uses Greek characters — and more precisely, in Sahidic Coptic, a dialect from southern Egypt, Dr. Luijendijk said in an interview.
    What convinced them it was probably genuine was the fading of the ink on the papyrus fibers, and traces of ink adhered to the bent fibers at the torn edges. The back side is so faint that only five words are visible, one only partly: “my moth[er],” “three,” “forth which.”
    “It would be impossible to forge,” said Dr. Luijendijk, who contributed to Dr. King’s paper.
    Dr. Bagnall reasoned that a forger would have had to be expert in Coptic grammar, handwriting and ideas. Most forgeries he has seen were nothing more than gibberish. And if it were a forgery intended to cause a sensation or make someone rich, why would it have lain in obscurity for so many years?
    “It’s hard to construct a scenario that is at all plausible in which somebody fakes something like this. The world is not really crawling with crooked papyrologists,” Dr. Bagnall said.
    The piece is torn into a rough rectangle, so that the document is missing its adjoining text on the left, right, top and bottom — most likely the work of a dealer who divided up a larger piece to maximize his profit, Dr. Bagnall said.
    Much of the context, therefore, is missing. But Dr. King was struck by phrases in the fragment like “My mother gave to me life,” and “Mary is worthy of it,” which resemble snippets from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary. Experts believe those were written in the late second century and translated into Coptic. She surmises that this fragment is also copied from a second-century Greek text.
    The meaning of the words, “my wife,” is beyond question, Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.” The text beyond “my wife” is cut off.
    Dr. King did not have the ink dated using carbon testing. She said it would require scraping off too much, destroying the relic. She still plans to have the ink tested by spectroscopy, which could roughly determine its age by its chemical composition.
    Dr. King submitted her paper to The Harvard Theological Review, which asked three scholars to review it. Two questioned its authenticity, but they had seen only low-resolution photographs of the fragment and were unaware that expert papyrologists had seen the actual item and judged it to be genuine, Dr. King said. One of the two questioned the grammar, translation and interpretation.
    Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and said in an e-mail in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.”
    Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish Dr. King’s article in its January issue.
    Dr. King said she would push the owner to come forward, in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories.
    The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But Dr. King said she wants nothing to do with the code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence
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  2. #2
    I suppose the Holy ROMAN catholic church could put all this to rest if only they would open up the Vatican basement to investigators. I'm sure every book that was taken away from to common man of the days gone by and burned, that they at least kept a copy or two.

  3. #3
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    They say that's her in the DaVinci Last Supper.

    So when's the Revolution? God or Money? Choose.

  4. #4
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    he also speaks of brides and bridegrooms (mark 2:19) but that don't mean he was married.

    CB
    This space for rent.

  5. #5
    To which I say, BULL.

    Seriously, these guys just don't quit!
    "Why not stay awake now? Who wants to sleep now, with so much happening, so much to see? Living used to be dull, you see...stupid...
    William Faulkner, "The Unvanquished"

  6. #6
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    Just from a common sense POV, it would have been most unusual for Jesus to be unmarried because of the traditions and customs of the day. If He had been unmarried, it would have been noted throughout the NT. The fact that it is not spoken of supports the idea that He was married.
    There is no spoon

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mzkitty View Post
    They say that's her in the DaVinci Last Supper.

    Most of the page is missing. It doesnt state it in any context. Dont forget the true chirch is the "bride" of Christ.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by minkykat View Post
    To which I say, BULL.

    Seriously, these guys just don't quit!
    Amen. I pray it will quickly be shown as a fake, or the translation will be understood correctly. The Gospels don't lie.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateUSA View Post
    Most of the page is missing. It doesnt state it in any context. Dont forget the true chirch is the "bride" of Christ.
    No rabbi of Jesus day would be unbearded. The picture is pretty obvious.
    There is no spoon

  10. #10
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    So?

    Let's say he was married?

    Again so?

    He *was* human...He slept worked for a living ate drank crapped and likely needed to shave and got Sunburned.

    Him having a wife?

    So?
    One cannot experience Freedom unless they are off the chain.

    "The healthy human mind doesn't wake up in the morning thinking this is its last day on Earth. But I think that's a luxury. To know you're close to the end is a kind of freedom.

    "We will not be the ones in History's notes who stood-by and watched as America fell."

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  11. #11
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    So.

    A "fragment" of "faded" parchment, with very limited readable text,


    presented by a WOMAN (possible feminist and liberal in Biblical interpretation / views?)


    with UNKNOWN provenance (iow, we don't have the foggiest WHERE it came from)


    from an ANONYMOUS donor



    and she just HAPPENS TO WRITE BOOKS ABOUT "new Gospel discoveries".........




    if you can't smell the BS by now, you have a REAL bad cold.........




    Jesus has ONE Bride:

    Revelation 21: 9-10---

    9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
    The only "change" I CAN believe in: I Corinthians 15: 51-52!


    WAKE ME WHEN IT'S OVER....

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    I bet she was a hottie.




    LittleJohn
    Courage is not the absence of fear...it is the absence of self.

    “You’re not your job. You’re not how much money you have in the bank. You’re not the car you drive. You’re not the contents of your wallet. You’re not your f***ing khakis.”

  13. #13
    Look,

    if our Lord was married; great! Fantastic! Yet another human condition that he chose to share with us! Yippee!

    HOWEVER:

    I believe that our Lord had more SENSE than to get married, knowing full well how his mission here would appear to end. His crucifixion would leave a widow and possibly orphans in a society that was not always kind to such especially when the man of the house was executed as he was.

    Jesus, I believe, in his love for us, in his desire to live our life most certainly would have encountered lust, felt deep love and nursed a broken heart or two for the ones he had to let get away.

    Again, this is just my opinion.
    "Why not stay awake now? Who wants to sleep now, with so much happening, so much to see? Living used to be dull, you see...stupid...
    William Faulkner, "The Unvanquished"

  14. #14
    I scream foul...

    His name wasnt Jesus, it was Yeshua. Jesus is a Roman name, just as Christ is a TITLE from the Greek language.

    Secondly, this was originated in the 4th century... 300 years after he died and rose...

    Why did it take 300 years for ANY document to refer to a 'wife'.

    But alas, I dont care what the world tries to create in lies and deceipt... doesnt change a thing to true believers, but it might for the sheeple who really dont have a relationship, only religion.
    Why is owning pets better than owning kids? Because if they get pregnant, you can sell their children.

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Argonath View Post
    I scream foul...

    His name wasnt Jesus, it was Yeshua. Jesus is a Roman name, just as Christ is a TITLE from the Greek language.

    Secondly, this was originated in the 4th century... 300 years after he died and rose...

    Why did it take 300 years for ANY document to refer to a 'wife'.

    But alas, I dont care what the world tries to create in lies and deceipt... doesnt change a thing to true believers, but it might for the sheeple who really dont have a relationship, only religion.
    Good points!
    "Why not stay awake now? Who wants to sleep now, with so much happening, so much to see? Living used to be dull, you see...stupid...
    William Faulkner, "The Unvanquished"

  16. #16
    Yeshua was also referred to as 'Teacher' in many places among the Bible's pages.

    'Teacher' was pronounced 'Rabbi' in His time.

    According to Jewish tradition, ONLY a married man could become a rabbi.

    Stop confusing mythology with facts.

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    He's My Savior....no matter what.
    JOHN 3:16 / John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you FREE.

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    I am always so amazed that christians are so set against Jesus being married. IT IS BIBLICAL. If one researches ancient customs of marriage, burial and as ender said the qualifications for a rabbi it becomes amazingly clear. One of the biggest debates in this nation right now is marriage ....what constitutes a true marriage. Christians defend it very passionately.

    The analogy of the bride and bridegroom is based on one of the holiest divine institutions established by God the Father. WHY would Jesus in his humanity NOT abide by this mandate?

    How could he be tested and tried in ALL ways if he did not experience a human personal love relationship with the "woman"? It is not a sin to love and honor the sanctity of what God chose to join together.

    Really if one examines it with an open mind and considers all the evidence and teachings in the scripture I believe the case for marriage is much stronger than the case against.

    Scripture leaves us in darkness as to Jesus life from age 12 or 13 until the age of 30.

    I find absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that Jesus was married.



    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    One of the first expressions of Gods will for man in Genesis:

    It is not good that the man should be alone

    a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh

    God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply.





    Among the Jews of the first century, some also believed in the literal resurrection of the dead. As a result, Jews believed that the body was to be respected in life and death and that a proper burial was a duty of family members.

    When a person breathed the last breath and the heart stopped beating, the eyes of the deceased were reverentially closed, the entire body was washed and anointed with oil, and the hands and feet were then wrapped in linen bands. The body, clothed in a favorite garment, was then wrapped with winding sheets. Spices of myrrh and aloes were placed in the folds of the garment to perfume the body. A napkin was then bound from the chin to the head. The family took the body on a bier to be buried within hours of death


    little side note:

    **so many significant women in the bible named Mary.....and we call the joining of two....getting "married" (mary=ed)**
    Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.~ “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?” ~“Touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm!”

  19. #19
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    So? What would it change? Nothing, I say.
    The liberal mind is a no logic zone.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

    Booga! Booga! Booga! Booga! - Dennis Olson on the dangers of EMP

  20. #20
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    Boy this just HAS to be a huge smoking gun!! We all KNOW there weren't any liars or deceivers back then and that ancient piece of paper proves it!!!

    (I think I'll just stick with my beliefs on Jesus' non-marital state as faithfully handed down and proven through the test of time.....like 2,000 years of them.)

  21. #21
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    And in two thousand years if some digs up an old crumpled copy of Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings will that prove there were wizards and orcs and dwarfs in the old days.
    For all we know they've dug up the 4th century version of The Onion
    Si vis pacem para bellum.

  22. #22
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    The Savior is coming back soon....if you know Him in a personal way...you can ask him in person about a wife. ;-)

    However, I think that the closest He ever got to women was His relationship with Mary Magdalene.

    Would His wife have understood and approved?

    Come on now folks.
    JOHN 3:16 / John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you FREE.

  23. #23
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    "This life has been given to you for repentance: Do not waste it in vain pursuits." St. Isaac of Syria

  24. #24
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    So do we Christians get to riot now after this latest insult
    Si vis pacem para bellum.

  25. #25
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    if he existed he was a real man, a potential political leader and a rabbi, he would therefore be married

    the myths of the Catholic Church were established 4 centuries later

  26. #26
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    Is sex outside of marriage with Jesus a sin?

    Still, if so, he's a lucky dude. Her too.

    Dobbin
    Ego sum, quia ego hinnitu

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Just from a common sense POV, it would have been most unusual for Jesus to be unmarried because of the traditions and customs of the day. If He had been unmarried, it would have been noted throughout the NT. The fact that it is not spoken of supports the idea that He was married.
    You have just proven your total lack of common sense.JMO
    Last edited by tm1439m; 09-19-2012 at 05:43 AM.
    Back when I was a kid.
    Pencil and paper were my keyboard, monitor and printer. My brain was the computer. The mouse was a pesky animal caught in a trap. Phones had dials not buttons. Text was something you "read" not "did".

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthanoir View Post
    And in two thousand years if some digs up an old crumpled copy of Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings will that prove there were wizards and orcs and dwarfs in the old days.
    For all we know they've dug up the 4th century version of The Onion


    cb
    This space for rent.

  29. #29
    He did not speak of his wife or children at his crucifixtion only giving his mother to Johns care. Think he might have made a quick statement about see you later dear should he have been married.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by crossbowboy View Post
    Yeshua was also referred to as 'Teacher' in many places among the Bible's pages.

    'Teacher' was pronounced 'Rabbi' in His time.

    According to Jewish tradition, ONLY a married man could become a rabbi.

    Stop confusing mythology with facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by msswv123 View Post
    I am always so amazed that christians are so set against Jesus being married. IT IS BIBLICAL. If one researches ancient customs of marriage, burial and as ender said the qualifications for a rabbi it becomes amazingly clear. One of the biggest debates in this nation right now is marriage ....what constitutes a true marriage. Christians defend it very passionately.
    He was referred to as Rabbi by his disciples and the people. He was NOT recognized as a Rabbi by Jewish leaders. For example, they asked Jesus by what authority he was teaching in Mark 11:28. He refused to tell them. He had no formal training as a Rabbi (not that he needed it) and could not have been a recognized Rabbi without years of training.

  31. #31
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    And do you have the same issue with his having brothers and sisters??
    WHich the Gospels actually refer to??

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    Using the information from that piece of a document is like doing a google search on conspiracies and coming across the first paragraph/ description of a website- and then building a position from that "information".

    It is very clear that Yashuah used marriage relationships to describe Himself with the Church. All those redeemed- washed in His blood, are His bride. The Church is called the bride of Messiah.

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    theres just not enough evidence that Jesus was married. here is a scrap of paper from the 4th century, a mere scrap with some fragments of sentences. who wrote it? why did they write it? who was it written to or for?

    we know there were breakaway sects at that time who claimed to follow and believe in Christ but had their own version and agenda, they were outside the realm of the apostles teachings, some of those groups just plain ol' made stuff up, go check for yourself.

    we have the 4 gospels, the book of Acts, letters of paul, peter, james, john, etc, and no mention of Jesus being married or having a wife. if he had a wife for sure someone who traveled with him, lived with him, saw him after he rose adn went preaching Jesus would have mentioned in their teachings of Him would have mentioned his wife. his mother is mentioned but never a wife.

    as mentioned above, dying on the cross his recorded words were concern for his mother, no mention of 'take care of my wife too'. if he had a wife would he not have asked john to take care of her also, or mention her?

    in the writings of the earliest church, there is no mention of Jesus wife

    Jesus came to fulfill the role of Messiah, not a rabbi. no mention in prophecies of the Messiah having or needing a wife.

    peter had a wife and she was mentioned. if the head guy had a wife who traveled around with him dont you think shed be mentioned in the very beginning in the gospels and by the apostles? shed be kinda famous. in writings of the earliest church Jesus mom is mentioned, but not a wife.

    so to me, this is just another spurious scrap being brought out to muddy the waters and weaken faith. the idea being, if he had a wife and no one told us, what else did they not tell us and what else might be covered up. makes one start to question the validity of the gospels, crucifixion, death and rising from the dead, ascension------puts doubts in mind.

    Jesus has alot of enemies, physical and spiritual. they will do any and everything to try to discredit Him, His role and His work.

    if Jesus was indeed married it would have been known from the get go, it would have been talked about, she would have been mentioned openly. a married rabbi walking around preaching and teaching is no big deal. but He wasnt just a rabbi, He was the Messiah, big difference. wife? all we got is vague references, questions and hints centuries later. nope, doesnt pass the sniff test.
    ++++++++++++++++++++
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  34. #34
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    Well, I think it would be kind of nice had He the experience. And I don't think it would have detracted from His role as human savior one iota. Sort of irrelevant actually IMHO. Nor should you think less of Him for partaking. Perhaps you should think MORE. It certainly holds the standard for humanity higher.

    For you humans - "Oh gee God, I try to live a Godly life but you see I'm married - and life - and temptation is SOOO hard." If Jesus had partaken Himself, then that kind of defuses that argument.

    But it seems He did it - albeit with coaching from his Father.

    Perhaps if you listened to your Coach (God), you'd hear the coaching too?

    Just asking. I'm kind of an outside observer to all this.

    Dobbin
    Ego sum, quia ego hinnitu

  35. #35
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    Someone is always attempting to disprove the basis of Christianity. There was also an article today (trying to locate it again.) about science will soon know all the secrets to the universe and that there will no longer be a need for the belief in God.

    here it is- http://news.yahoo.com/science-someda...115945479.html

    sorry for the copy and paste.

  36. #36
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    Ya know, I keep hearing about this thing called FAITH.

    But I sure don't see a lot of people who seem to believe in it.

    Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

    Getting all bent out of shape over a little piece of paper of unknown origin with some words written on it by an unknown hand, at some unknown place and time, is hardly evidence in my mind of faith. My FIL, a Presbyterian preacher, always worries about my eternal soul because of the simplicity of my outlook (I was raised Baptist). But to my mind God's Son is bigger than all that, and a scrap of papyrus is irrelevant to what He is and especially to the price He paid. That is what matters to me. Not the color of His eyes or whether or not He had a wife...
    "All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arises not from deficits in the Constitution or Confederation , nor from want of honor and virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -- John Adams
    "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton

  37. #37
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    An actual wife would not be consistent with his mission. He was pretty focused.

  38. #38
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    Since the term Rabbi, as currently understood, didn't come into use until long after Jesus' lifetime, I don't see what the hoopla is about.

    Rabbi is not an occupation found in the Hebrew Bible, and ancient generations did not employ related titles such as Rabban, Ribbi, or Rab to describe either the Babylonian sages or the sages in Israel.[5] The titles "Rabban" and "Rabbi" are first mentioned in the Mishnah (c. 200 CE).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi

    It has always made sense to me that he may have been married, but whether he was or not, so what?

    THIS:
    But to my mind God's Son is bigger than all that, and a scrap of papyrus is irrelevant to what He is and especially to the price He paid. That is what matters to me. Not the color of His eyes or whether or not He had a wife...
    That said, there is only one importance to whether he was married or not: If it can be reasonably proved that he was likely married, the entire foundation of the Catholic Church (priests, celebacy, etc.) founders and crumbles.

    Another significant item about this kind of controversy: It has become clear that the Council of Nicea crafted a book that served political purposes and reflected the majority viewpoints of that time. We should be listening to the Spirit of God for guidance, as they did in the early days of the church, and not making the Bible more Holy than God.

  39. #39
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    More books could be written about what we DON'T know about the life of Jesus, than what we DO know.
    You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    There ain't no stopping a man who knows he's right and just keeps on a coming. L. Lamour

  40. #40
    Lets put the scrap of paper aside for a moment.

    Why is it imperative that Christ not be married aside from "the bible don't say he was"?
    BTW - I am asking the question in the theological sense - not the "I wanna argue" sense -

    Just want to know if there is anything that backs it up in the text of bible and if there is some theological reason
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a peaky raven?

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