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PREP Thoughts On Post-SHTF Travel By Vehicle
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Thoughts On Post-SHTF Travel By Vehicle

    Contemplation of things like this long ago decided me to 'bug in,' not out... but everyone's situation will vary, and some may not have the option of staying where they are. Given unavoidable circumstances, of course, any one of us might find ourselves having to beat feet out of the area where we had planned to stay...
    ===============================================

    http://westernrifleshooters.wordpres...-environments/
    Moving by Vehicles in High Threat Environments
    Posted on September 18, 2012

    From Max Velocity:

    The intent of this article is to act as an introduction with some thoughts and primers for moving your family or group in high threat environments. It is not intended to give all the answers and that would be beyond the scope of this short piece. The type of environment envisioned is a post-collapse situation where there has been a breakdown in law and order.

    To clarify, this article is not concerned with the sort of ‘bug-out’ movement that families may conduct in response to a localized natural disaster, where you have to get in your car with some basic equipment and move out of the impacted area. Rather, this is directed at those who find they have to move locations after a significant societal collapse has happened.

    As background it is clear that to read the conventional prepper wisdom to survive any coming apocalypse you need to be in a fortified self-sustaining retreat somewhere out in the boonies, with three years of food in the basement and the ability to grow food plus animals. This is the gold standard; you will be really well positioned if that is where you are with your preparations.

    The reality for many is that they simply do not have that. For whatever reason, they may be in an urban or suburban environment. They may have nowhere else to realistically ‘bug out’ to. They may have a goal to achieve the retreat, but not be there yet, or have bug out land that is fairly basic and requires them to move to it following a collapse. So there may be a reality gap between those that have achieved the gold standard of location and preparations, and those that are not there yet.

    What I am really concerned about here is a collapse of society, the veritable ‘TEOTWAWKI’, where it all goes to chaos, the ‘SHTF’. For most of us who are not at the ‘gold standard’, we will be left to survive where we are, in our suburban homes or whatever applies to you. Now, it is true that some will be better set up than others. Reasons include location, such as an inner city one bedroom apartment versus a big house on several acres in a sub-division, or the amount of preps that you have: food supplies etc.

    Everything depends on the situation and the threat that emerges, including your own personal and family situation and preparations. One key thing is not to make assumptions now, but to remain flexible. My advice is not to ‘head for the hills’ by reflex, because unless you have somewhere to go you will be out there with the rest of the refugees in the chaos. If you even have a minimal amount of preparations at home you should shelter in place and make do the best you can. This should be a low profile shelter in place where you set yourself up to draw minimum attention to yourself as the waves of chaos pass. You may be sheltering in a basement with your family, for example. Of course, if the threat changes, then you will need to adapt to it. An organized gang of well-armed marauders going house to house in your neighborhood would be an example of when to make the decision to bug out. Be flexible and don’t go the opposite of the ‘head for the hills’ mentality and die in your basement simply because you did not want to pack up and go. However, I think that it is given that for anyone sheltering with supplies in this way there will at some point come one or more challenges such as home invasion from outside groups. This will also probably apply to those in rural retreats at some point as the horde fans out looking to survive. Be ready to respond and defend yourself against these challenges as necessary. Think of how it will likely be after the event, not how things are right now. Those in the rural retreats will probably have a rude awakening when they realize that the horde has reached them and the demographics have changed!

    I think that there are two main things that you have to achieve, phases if you like, in order to survive in the long term:

    1) Have enough stores, firearms, tactical ability and numbers if possible, as well as a covert location in order to survive the event and the initial chaos and disorder. This is a short to medium term goal.

    2) Long term, you will need to be able to live in a protected sustainable community. All prepper stores will run out in the end and the only solution to survive and thrive is to be able to produce food and protect your people and your resources.

    So, unless you started in a sustainable protected retreat, you will have to survive where you are until such time as you can get to one. Remember that in a full TEOTWAWKI scenario there will be mass panic and chaos as people try to find food and survive. There will be a huge population die-off and there will likely be a delay of a year or two before food can be produced. You have to survive from the one to the other. Even after the die–off there will still be good and bad guys out there. Good guys probably living in those sustainable retreats or locations, bad guys marauding and living off what they can loot and pillage. There may be other complicating factors, such as civil war or foreign invasion. I use the TV series ‘Jericho’ as an example of this.

    So, if you survived the event and were not already in that ideal retreat, you then have to move. Did you hide and protect your bug out vehicle with a supply of stored gas? Are you going to have to walk, or use other modes of transport? The key thing is that your group will have to make it to somewhere where they can be accepted by a current sustainable community, or move onto land where they can create one. This will involve travel of some sort and also the ability to defend your group while moving from A to B. If it is true TEOTWAWKI, then it could go on for years and you may have to travel to establish a farm somewhere. If you are going to be taken in by a community or small town that is sustaining itself, then you have to show your worth in some way. This can also become relevant to those who find themselves in the ‘gold standard’ prepper retreat location, because some of the factors may change to make that position no longer tenable. So, at some point it may be relevant to all that they will have to move in vehicles in a post collapse environment. Some good feedback that I have received is about communities in good defendable locations and the potential to take in good people after a collapse. The reasoning from one prepper was that although the community needed to be defended, good people could be screened and admitted and lodge with some of the elderly folk who have land but lack physical muscle to get things done. It smacks of a return to an older model of society where communities and villages mucked in together and children were looked after by the whole village while others worked the land.

    If you have to conduct vehicle movement in a post collapse environment then you will need to assume an extant threat. Such a threat will take the form, in simple terms, of armed groups and individuals who will seek to impinge on you and your family’s freedom, property or life for their own ends. There could be road blocks, ambush, mobs, tricks and all sorts of threats. You will also have to consider the extent that any law enforcement remains active, which could also include emergency or martial law. For example, if you are moving you will have to assess the situations as they appear and decide whether you are facing a legal checkpoint (i.e. military/law enforcement) versus perhaps an illegal roadblock with bad intent versus perhaps an ‘illegal’ one with simply defensive intent, such as one set up by a community militia to defend a town. The types of threat are numerous and to fully define them is also beyond the scope of this article; suffice to say that the means (firearms) are out there and the intent and motive will exist for the ‘bad guys’ to wish to do you harm. This is particularly true if you are moving with supplies in a collapse situation. Therefore, you will need to consider the adoption of defensive tactics and capabilities in order to mitigate against the threat.

    Please put out of your mind any assumptions that you may have already about how you will move in this kind of environment. I am not advocating the use of children as ‘shooters’, the open display of weapons out of car windows, or even the positioning of a ‘shooter’ in a sunroof. In short, this is not about going ‘Mad Max’. You will need to consider the ‘profile’ that you adopt, which means how your vehicle packet appears as you are moving along the roads and at halts, and will also have implications for the professionalism that you display. You can adopt either a ‘high’ or ‘low’ ‘profile’ (or ‘posture’) and I would advocate that in this situation, as a family or group of civilians moving in a potentially hostile post collapse environment, that you adopt the lower end of the profile scale. This does not impact your defensive capability, and it could be said you make you a more inviting target if you look ‘softer’. However, you do not want to incite action against you by hostiles and there may well still be elements of military or law enforcement working out there and you don’t want to find yourself arrested or engaged by these elements because you yourselves are seen as a lawless threat. This is not a discussion about creating tactical teams or quick reaction forces, which I have written about elsewhere and will be useful in other circumstances; it is more about mitigating risk to a family or friends group moving cross country.

    Consider how you can maintain a defensive capability while also presenting a low profile. For example, consider your vehicles. Families often have minivans. These are not seen as cool or tactical at all, but if you put the seats down in the back you have a huge cargo space. Loading this with supplies would allow you to carry them while not making it look so obvious, less obvious than loading a pick-up or a trailer for example. Wear your load/ammunition carrying equipment in a way that is comfortable for sitting in a vehicle but less obvious – perhaps putting a shirt over top of a load carrying vest, and keeping weapons down but accessible. If you have to get out and stand by your vehicle you can do so with your weapon in a ready position, but you can also leave it on the seat next to you and readily available, depending on the situation and the profile you wish to portray. Consider these things.

    Remember that your vehicle gives you no protection. Rifle rounds will cut through the vehicle like a ‘knife through butter’. The only ‘hardened’ areas in a normal civilian vehicle are the engine block and the metal parts of the wheels. This is why if you are taking fire position next to a vehicle, you want to shelter by the engine or wheel wells; preferably you will then move away from the vehicle into a fire position in hard cover. You should consider how you may be able to change this by creating better ballistic protection in the vehicles. Wearing body armor is a help but provides little protection to the side of torso and thighs that are vulnerable to side shots as you are driving. Younger kids will also not be wearing it. You should consider how you can better ballistically protect the vehicle and occupants from this kind of threat. You can fix steel plate to the inside of doors if you have the capability. You could put all the seats down in the back of a van and put in an open top steel box with access doors to shelter the kids in. If you can’t go this far, you can consider other types of ballistic protection by where people sit, even phone books will stop a round! Spare body armor and ballistic plates lining the side of the vehicle, other types or hardened material will also work including creating a space inside the load you are carrying in which to shelter kids. You also need to know that in a normal car, the ballistic protection thing works both ways: the vehicle skin will not stop incoming rounds, which also means that you can fire out through the vehicle if you need to. Don’t worry about winding windows down, you can fire out through the glass or body of the vehicle as you need to.

    Seat belts are always a good idea, but the need for them can be countered by the need to keep speed low in order to be able to view the road ahead and try to avoid threats as they emerge ahead, particularly as you come around bends. I say this not because I advocate not using seat belts, but because kid’s car seats can be a problem for protection and also getting the kids out of the car in a hurry. They keep the kids sitting up high and if there is a contact involving enemy fire everyone needs to be as low as possible in the foot wells of the vehicles. Consider not using car seats and moving at slower tactical speeds. Also consider putting seats down and having the kids sitting on the floor, or perhaps secure the car seats to strong points in the floor rather than up on the vehicle seats. Consider how you will do this.

    You may be a small group of family or friends that has to move locations. The worst case is that you will move in one vehicle. You may well be limited in terms of who is trained and equipped to be tactically useful in defense of your group. Hopefully it is not just one of the spouses that is tactically able, or a single parent family moving. The time to train, prepare and get the right equipment and firearms is now. If you have one vehicle you are very vulnerable and have no tactical options or redundancy. A normal standard type family often has two spouses, kids and a couple of cars. This is still worst case but may be reality: if you have no more numbers to make up a tactical convoy then take both vehicles. One of the spouses drives the first vehicle in a recce function, perhaps carrying the stores, while the other spouse drives the second vehicle with the kids and other supplies. As you move keep a ‘tactical’ bound between vehicles, even at stops, where possible. A ‘tactical bound’ is a distance that depends on the ground and will vary, but in simple terms it is enough distance so that the second vehicle is not involved in the contact that the first one gets in to. Keep a bit of space there. Consider the use of more vehicles because it will give you tactical options and better allow you to protect the kids or other ‘protected persons’. More vehicles allow you to carry more supplies. Trailers will detract from your tactical mobility options, including reversing in a crisis, and therefore if you can move the stores into the vehicles you will be better off.

    The single family unit moving is still a worst case situation that can be mitigated a little by moving in two vehicles. Ideally, you will want to get together with a group or other family(s) where you have enough ‘shooters’ and drivers to create a minimum three vehicle packet. This will allow you to create a tactical close protection packet where you have an advance vehicle, a middle vehicle(s) for the protected personnel and a rear chase or counter attack (CAT) vehicle. This will greatly enhance your tactical options, redundancy and protection of the loved ones. This could even consist of variations such as an RV in the center with the protected personnel in, with front and rear protection vehicles.

    As you are driving, the driver’s job is to drive and he should preferably be capable as a ‘shooter’ but primarily the vehicle is his ‘weapon’ and the means to keep people safe. The other ‘shooters’ will be assigned observation sectors of responsibility as they move along the route. You should adopt a safe tactical speed that will give you warning of any dangers ahead and hopefully allow you to avoid them. Your primary focus should be on safety and the avoidance of danger. Invest time in route planning. Don’t be afraid to stop and move forward on foot to observe the route ahead, or turn around and go another way. Make sure you adopt the tactical bounds between vehicles and if you stop for any reason, such as to change a tire, fill up gas from your stored gas cans, or even for the night, you need to adopt a good tactical position and cover your sectors to protect the convoy. For longer term halts, such as overnight, conceal the vehicles off the road and post sentries. As you move, you will need to have any music off and consider having the windows open in unarmored vehicles in rural areas in order to be able to hear and get a better feel for the environment, particularly if you stop for any reason. But if you are anywhere where there is the potential for people or mobs then you need to have the doors locked and the windows up to reduce the risk of entry and even people getting snatched from vehicles.

    If you are driving and you come under enemy fire (’contact’) then you are in the enemy ‘killing area’ also known as the ‘X’ and the key thing is to get off the X as rapidly as possible. You may take casualties but you still need to get out of there and consolidate at a secured rally point. This is where any added ballistic protection will be priceless. A problem you may have is if you have a vehicle(s) immobilized by enemy fire on the X. These situations and the counter drills are covered in detail in ‘Contact! A Tactical Manual for Post Collapse Survival’. Briefly, you have to get the personnel off the X and this can either be with a rescue vehicle moving back into the killing area under cover fire and ‘cross decking’ the personnel, or alternatively the personnel in the immobilized vehicle(s) will have to fire and move off the X to rejoin the group under covering fire. Consider that for an unarmored vehicle one of the reasons that it may potentially be immobilized is that the driver has been shot. This is not truly immobilized in the sense that the engine or tires have not been shot out. Survivability will be greatly increased by the use of run-flat tires and added ballistic protection. If the driver is shot then you may be able to rapidly pull them out of their seat into the back of the vehicle and take their place. For an automatic transmission it may be that the passenger can simply jam his foot onto the accelerator from the passenger seat and drive the vehicle out. Consider how you will do this and have a drill for it. If you can’t accomplish this quickly, then you are for all intents and purposes in an immobilized vehicle and you will have to dismount to fire positions before either being rescued or fighting out of the ambush. Be aware that any vehicle immobilized on the X becomes a ‘bullet magnet’ and you do not want to be inside it, static, for any more than a few seconds.

    You will want to consider whether you are moving by day or by night. The situation will dictate but in general if you don’t have night vision equipment for driving, which means driving with headlights, then you should move during the day. This will allow you to scan and observe and your movement will also be less obvious without your headlights as it would be at night. You will need to give consideration to the threats you may encounter and drill your team accordingly. You may have to respond to roadside ambush, and this may be with the road open or blocked and with your vehicles perhaps becoming immobilized or receiving casualties. You will also have to work out how you will respond to roadblocks, both legal and illegal and what you will do if you observe them early orif you drive into one without prior warning. It is important that you practice these ‘actions on’ drills so that you will be able to respond in a crisis. You should even practice ‘cross decking’ and getting the kids out of the vehicles in an emergency, so that they know what to expect and are not surprised when you start giving them commands to ‘get down’ or get out of the vehicles. You can train this kind of muscle memory drill in the same way that kids do fire drills and ‘stop drop and roll’ at school.

    If you do find yourself in a position where it is the protected vehicle that is immobilized and under fire, then there needs to be at least on adult acting as the protection person and directing the protected personnel to stay low and crawl, while the other spouse or team members provide covering fire. You should be able to identify what hard cover is (cover from fire, not just view) and also what is ‘dead ground’, which is ground that the enemy cannot see into i.e. folds in the ground and ditches etc. This will allow the protection person to identify areas where they may keep the kids while waiting for a rescue vehicle, or alternatively allow them to crawl out of the killing area in cover while others in the team fire and move. The more vehicles and team members you have in your group, the more potential there is for covering fire from the flanks of the killing area, and the more people available to fire and move and also carry any casualties.

    The reality of a family or group of families or friends on the move is that there will be a mix of the tactically able, the young and the old and infirm. This article has not been about tactical teams and conducting tactical operations, that is a separate subject: it is about creating a tactical capability within your group where those that are able protect those that are not. This kind of specialization will enhance the survivability of those in your group.

    Max Velocity
    http://maxvelocitytactical.com/
    "All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arises not from deficits in the Constitution or Confederation , nor from want of honor and virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -- John Adams
    "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    State of Franklin
    Posts
    15,655
    Some similar thoughts from another source...

    http://cliffsofinsanity2010.blogspot...05/convoy.html


    Sunday, May 1, 2011
    Convoy!

    Convoying is really not all that hard. It just requires thinking ahead, taking your time, and communicating early and often. It is a different mindset to drive as part of a team as opposed to driving individually. You must change your mindset. You must communicate with the rest of the convoy and with the other cars around you.

    The lead car has to take his time. Don't race off at +5 over the speed limit. The rest of us have to catch you. Don't worry about being slow. You're driving for however many cars are in your convoy. The caboose will tell you when it's time to put on more steam.

    The lead car has to KNOW where he's going and every turn to get there. If you don't know the way, don't lead. Period.
    The lead car must be in communication with the tail.

    Every lane change and turn needs to be communicated by turn signal (that's the stalk on the left hand side of the steering column) and by radio or signal to the tail end vehicle. If you're in the end vehicle and hear of the lane change, then do it when it's called. Don't wait until the car in front of you does it. Do it and do not overtake the convoy. Hold the lane for the rest of the convoy to get over. Flash the lights if necessary. Oh, and convoy, when the lead car gets over, you need to get over. When the tail car changes lanes, he is literally blocking traffic which is illegal. If you all get over, then it's clear to all that you are traveling as one. You must watch behind you as well as in front of you.

    Those in the convoy must maintain speed and following distance. Keep it tight. Not tailgating tight, but close enough so as to prevent any breaks the convoy and so that you can see what the vehicle ahead of you is doing. Uh. . .hello. What is the purpose of a convoy if not to stick together? In order to keep it tight though, you must have the nerves to trust the others in the convoy. You must be able to trust that the car in front of you is not going to set you up for failure with a short stop due to short sighted thinking.

    Being a part of a convoy requires a different kind of thinking. You're job is to follow the vehicle ahead of you. Period. It's not to check the scenery or to think about the way there. It is to concentrate on what the next vehicle ahead in the convoy is doing and mimicking that in real time. All but the lead car and caboose need to focus almost exclusively on the speed, position, distance and spacing of the other vehicles in the convoy. This is counterintuitive to the way that we are taught to drive as individuals. But you're not driving as an individual in a convoy. You're a part of a team.

    As a convoy, you should constantly cover the brake pedal. You'll be following tight for one thing. For another, not everyone on the road realizes that you're a convoy. They may try to break in and that could cause problems.

    Allow other vehicles to break the convoy only when it's absolutely necessary. Playing a little bit of "track position" can go a long way towards preventing breaks in the convoy.

    All of the convoy needs to watch the vehicle in front of them for subtle cues on speed and condition. Pay particular attention to two vehicles. Lead and tail. Understand that those two are in communication and know what the other is doing. They are synchronizing their moves at times and you need to do likewise between them. If you are in the middle of the convoy and see the car behind you change lanes and hold position, then you need to do likewise.

    Do not swap positions or pass/overtake each other within the convoy.

    When the convoy becomes separated, the tail must communicate to the head where he is and who's in front of him. The lead car must slow down further so that once the tail section is moving again they can gain ground and again make the convoy intact. And those who made it through the split must remain with the lead car. Do not dawdle waiting for the other group to catch up. Stay with the leader.

    If you find yourself as the lead of the second section of a convoy, your one and only mission is to safely lead the remaining vehicles to rejoin the convoy and make it whole again. Period. Rules for the lead vehicle apply even if you don't have radio communication with the head or tail. It is not necessary for every vehicle in the convoy to have a radio. To do it right though, the head and tail must have voice communication between each other-preferably by FRS/GMRS or CB radios.
    Separation of the convoy in and of itself is not a cause for panic. However, when the back section is moving again you must move with urgency and efficiency to get to the head. That means all cars in the second segment of the convoy must be ready to hit the gas hard and stick with the new leader. The same rules for lead car apply with one caveat: find the front of the convoy and reconnect.

    Tail end car must communicate to the original head when the convoy is rejoined and made intact. This is usually necessary going through intersections or getting onto the interstate or obviously after a split. This communication gives the leader the green light to resume normal speed.

    As the lead car, drive one speed. Do not hunt up and down for speed except over grade. If traffic is slowing the convoy, then go slower so that you can maintain steady, smooth progress-rather than brake dancing as if you were in rush hour.
    The lead car must approach intersections with the knowledge that the convoy may be broken. You must clear the intersection with authority, but not go to blazing speed once you're clear. If there's a chance to stop at the light and keep the group together, then do it. If not, then communicate to the tail. By the same token, cars in the middle of the convoy must likewise move through the intersection with due speed so as to maximize the chance of keeping the convoy intact.
    Cars in the middle must be ready to become the lead car. If a red light is going to break the convoy, then hit the brakes early. This communicates to the succeeding cars that you are stopping and the group will not run the red light. It also reduces the chance of the convoy rear-ending each other in an embarrassing accordion moment that could cause delay, dollars, and failure of the mission. Remember, communicate early and often. Safety is key. Don't run the red lights, but if there's a chance for the tail end car to make it through on a yellow, then do it.

    Tail end car must also know the route and be prepared to "guard" the lane. If possible, the tail end car should be changing lanes before the rest of the convoy. This seems counterintuitive, but it's not. On the interstate or multi-lane roads, the convoy can often be broken by a simple lane change done wrong. Ideally, the tail should change lanes first and then "hold" that position to block the lane. This allows the rest of the convoy forward to change lanes as one and remain intact. Another subtle part of this is the image that it presents to other cars on the road. It's easy to pick out a dozen camouflaged trucks drivinv together as a convoy. If you're driving along though and you all the sudden see 7 totally different cars driving along, nothing tells you they are a convoy. When you see the entire group make a lane change though, your brain says, "they're together". When drivers around you make that connection, then they will generally also respect your convoy and stay clear understanding that they need to pass all of you, not just one.

    Lead and tail vehicles should both be high. Think SUV or pickup. This gives them an advantage in visibility to see the whole convoy from time to time. If you've got smaller vehicles, put them into the center. Put your biggest vehicles in the back. Put your most visible towards the front.

    The scope freeze for the convoy needs to take place before the convoy starts moving. Avoid adding new vehicles if possible. Avoid any changes to the mission parameters if at all possible. Once the convoy is moving, there should be no stopping or deviations until you reach the next appointed location unless at very great need.

    Convoys need to start from a fairly large area such as a big store parking lot where all vehicles and personnel are assembled together. This supports staging in the correct order for initial roll, it supports the pre-roll briefing. It supports aligning the team and communicating the goals. Corner gas stations are not the place to do this-even if you need to stop and get gas. Stage out of the big honkin' parking lot, sortie to the gas station individually, return to the group and your position in the line.

    Bear in mind that these are mostly my observations about how to do it when you're in peace time conditions with a civilian group. I'm sure the military has their own manual about how to run a convoy that applies when conditions are more hostile-but this should suffice to get the ball rolling. I'll pare this down and organize it a little better later on.

    Still working the disaster stuff and will have some more to share in a day or two.
    Last edited by Dozdoats; 09-18-2012 at 10:14 PM.
    "All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arises not from deficits in the Constitution or Confederation , nor from want of honor and virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -- John Adams
    "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton

  3. #3
    That's weird, just got finished reading both articles before I came here. Good basic info.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2001
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    Alberta Canada/Mesa AZ
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    If TEOW involves EMP, forget all the above.......
    True North Strong and Free

  5. #5
    Interesting article. Convoying.......hmmmm.
    If it's too hard, your doing it wrong.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2001
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Thanks Dozdoats. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Helpful advice.
    "It beggar'd all description" - Shakespeare's 'Antony & Cleopatra'

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2004
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    Ventura County Line
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurane View Post
    If TEOW involves EMP, forget all the above.......
    Surely your preps included a non electronic non computerized vehicle, right? Most pre late 70's cars and even a few early 80's can be modified to work with no electronic assistance other than a coil and distributor. That's your sure thing get out o' Dodge mobile! Mine is a 1983 AMC Concord wagon with a 258 6 cyl (same as a Jeep) modified with computer bypass, flamethrower coil, distributor upgrade, Motorcraft 2150 carb and elimination of all pollution controls, and it still runs clean enough to pass local smog test. Only thing that could fry in an EMP is the ignition modual and there is a new one in the box sitting in the tire well waiting to be plugged in if need be. 21 gallon tank, 28 mpg, seats 5 in a pinch and room for the dog, luggage and some spare gas cans and this baby can put on some serious stealth miles. And no one gives it a second look.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
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    Here is another write up that date and time wise, started a trend of articles on Grid Down travel:

    Link to article on the Gun Culture Forum:
    http://mscg.yuku.com/topic/4598/CIDG-Convoy-Tactics

    -Sefus

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Cleveland OH looking towards TX wistfully
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    Interestingly enough and countrintuitively, Points-condenser ignitions have failed more in tests than have current computerized ignitions, if I remember the info I read correctly.





    U N I M O G

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by cheyenneplateau View Post
    Interesting article. Convoying.......hmmmm.
    If you're not in place before TSHTF, then you're not going to make it. Convoy or not.

  11. #11
    Could always pull your horse in trailer behind you like I do.
    Drop the ramp and ride on. Better chance of survival. But thats just me.
    If it's too hard, your doing it wrong.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    CT
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    I was figuring out if it was practical to store and carry enough fuel to get to family in SHTF, 8 - 5 gal gas cans. Not good.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
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    S. Texas
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    Bugging out for a distance of more than a couple counties around you
    via well known back roads, after TSHTF, is gonna be very tough, IMO.

    - Shane
    THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT NUCLEAR DESTRUCTION!
    WHAT TO DO IF A NUCLEAR DISASTER IS IMMINENT!
    When An ill Wind Blows From Afar! (Overseas Fallout)

    "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
    the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
    - Proverbs 22:3

  14. #14
    It depends on what is happening. Most people are not going to realize the lights are not going to turn back on until 4 days have passed.
    Then they will mob and freak out and as time goes on it will become worse.

  15. #15
    I believe it's just best to be ahead of the pack. Don't stand out. Make sure all mechanics are in order. Good tires. But ahead of the pack. The best vehicle does no good when surrounded by hundreds in a traffic jam. Also have good maps, laminated. And run all routes pre shtf.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pottersville
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    Quote Originally Posted by night driver View Post
    Interestingly enough and countrintuitively, Points-condenser ignitions have failed more in tests than have current computerized ignitions, if I remember the info I read correctly.



    U N I M O G


    Correct, as I've seen data indicating the same. Remember the environment under a vehicles hood is very hot, dirty, subject to moisture & water, vibration & impact, RF static from spark plugs. My former company has many ISO certs including those for the Auto Industry. It supplies many parts for the ECM's for several auto makers. (in addition it supplied over 270 parts actually in the last Mar's lander) Yes some some electronic chips are very sensitive to stray currents, yet we can make them damm tough and under the hood is one of the toughest environments there is. My personal belief is that autos will survive better than most other consumer electronics.
    Last edited by Double_A; 09-19-2012 at 03:24 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Alberta Canada/Mesa AZ
    Posts
    6,363
    Everybody keeps laughing at my 1990 Toyota Corolla with almost 300,000 miles on it.......how would I find out what kind of electronics needed to be replaced if the ignition and other thingys got fried? Our mechanic would certainly just think I was odd if I asked, I am sure.
    True North Strong and Free

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Baltimore/DC metro
    Posts
    6,187
    We've been investing in our bugout vehicle (Jeep Cherokee) for a few months now, a little at a time and I still have to put break lines in it I recently found out when the peddle went to the floor

    My worry has always been, IF I can bug out in a vehicle, will the roads be traversible? Will there be mil/leo road blocks? My location is not far fortunately but there is 40 miles of road and the choice of going through a tunnel or having to take the longer way around the beltway both of which could be problematic in that sort of situation. I'm hoping we will see it coming soon enough in advance that we can get while the getting is good and my parents will have to be convinced that the situation warrants their house being the base of operations for the entire clan.

    We
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
    --John F. Kennedy

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2004
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    Pottersville
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurane View Post
    Everybody keeps laughing at my 1990 Toyota Corolla with almost 300,000 miles on it.......how would I find out what kind of electronics needed to be replaced if the ignition and other thingys got fried? Our mechanic would certainly just think I was odd if I asked, I am sure.
    Well, IIRC one of the portions of maintaining a ISO certification standards is agreeing to manufacture/stock replacement parts ten years after a particular car is discontinued. (My former company keeps whole completed semiconductor wafers stored off-site in special conditions. ) I would just tell him you plan on keeping this car for many more years what would he recommend. But quite frankly most Auto Ins' companies these days specify repairs be made with junkyard parts (they put it in a nicer way but that's what they are) or aftermarket parts made in china. Obama just in the last two days filed a complaint againts China over their cheap repair parts flooding the market place. You have several advantages in the Corrolla is one of the most popular car made. You could find parts in the auto junk yards.

    The other issue is body & frame corrosion due to road salt and simply wear on the engine. What would he recommend to do about that?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pottersville
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dex View Post
    We've been investing in our bugout vehicle (Jeep Cherokee) for a few months now, a little at a time and I still have to put break lines in it I recently found out when the peddle went to the floor

    My worry has always been, IF I can bug out in a vehicle, will the roads be traversible? Will there be mil/leo road blocks? My location is not far fortunately but there is 40 miles of road and the choice of going through a tunnel or having to take the longer way around the beltway both of which could be problematic in that sort of situation. I'm hoping we will see it coming soon enough in advance that we can get while the getting is good and my parents will have to be convinced that the situation warrants their house being the base of operations for the entire clan.

    We
    A while back there was info that County in Colorado that was going to block off roads leading into it to block outsiders. If was never clarified if they would block people passing through in transit.

    After Katrina a local rural Sheriff & deputies stopped a Disaster Medical team convoy heading in to help. They looted their vehicles and personal property of the medics at gun point. FBI took care of the issue. I'm not sure that's been generally publicized.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Rohan
    Posts
    1,160
    Quote Originally Posted by shane View Post
    Bugging out for a distance of more than a couple counties around you
    via well known back roads, after TSHTF, is gonna be very tough, IMO.

    - Shane
    thats true. (i LOVE these KIND of discussions, thanks Oats!...other than hard core prepping, not so much)

    i'm sitting here, watching a front come in, wind blowing thru the trees, and i realize, i'm spoiled..(not rotten) but all the old anxieties, what Oats brought up in those articles is gone. Once you get bugged out, and live rural for a while, and integrate into a community, be available, get to know folks, etc...all the wargaming about ACTUALLY doing a mid-shtf bug OUT, obviously just goes away.

    three seasons ago, i was hunkered down in my cuz's CITY basement/bunker apt, and my thoughts were to a do bug in place, as my brothers farm was 400 miles north of me, (now he's 15 miles SOUTH of me)..i had over a hundred days of ALL supply, i had that basement ready to be battened down, and would shoot anything coming thru the door, that was the shtf grid down scenario, a nuke det?..well, all bets are off. (lol, kind of)

    got to think of the seasons too. in the northern tier, it would be sad folly to head out...but then again, as i go over old "plans" i dont need to contemplate, maybe not, IF you are TOTALLY winterized, and can move comfortable in that enviroment, as people would be loathe to go out in a severe winter. So you MIGHT have more freedom of movement, but winter sure is hairy enough JUST by itself.

    my plan back then, was to set "trip wire" events, very similiar to a stop loss order in the markets, that if event A or B happens, i'm gone, up north to the farm....even did a 0200 practice run up to my brothers using a back route we take, i had 4 actual, honest to goodness refurbished "Jerry" cans, Wehrmacht gas cans, bought for $25, from a surplus store...heck even new 'red' round metal gas cans cost more, and the Jerry can is WAY better...always kept my gas tank full, 24/7 365, that is an imperative.....as far as EMP? ole "Loup" here, briefed me about that, hes the real deal, told me, we been sold a bill of goods about that.

    but lets say, i never got a trip wire event, it was a bolt of the blue , black swan thing, those scenarios are in the dozens, then i was gonna bug in place, and just improvise. a year before that i passed the "river" so to speak, had to face death, and lost that fear, and maybe during this "bug in place", improvise phase, i might die, then i was okay with that. (but bugged in place, hunkered down?...i wouldnt die at the hands of rampaging marauders, there's have to be a gang of more than two or three thousand, i'd stack 'em like cordwood...which would be messed up..anyway)

    even now, when i drive these desolate rural roads, i realize, even bugged, in a shtf scenario, traveling alone, just down to my brothers place, 15 miles, which i can do in 10 minutes, lots of hollers, hilltops, small bridges, windy, twisting roads, up here, its ideal for ambush, the terrain is BUILT for defense...thats why we like it, its beautiful country, but that beauty could be deadly, even to a local....some good ole boys could could turn bad, or county mounties could turn into bandits with uniforms...you just NEVER know, until the day.

    You know, Jimmy Rawles has done a good thing, he's helped and IS helping a lot of citizens...a while back, still in the city, i bought a copy of "Patriots", read it, thought this pretty cool, gave my copy to my brother, who had quite a different critique: "its bull shit", he said.

    "why you think?"

    "first of all, they escape by crawling thru west side sewers, then they come up here, and they got all those toys, and they're the cool kids, who are going to save us country bumpkins and idjits, coz we're too stupid to handle some gunned up biker gang?"

    i thought about it, he was right. You just cant show up, in a RURAL community, prepped up, and expect to be recieved with open arms, because you havent BUILT UP a currency of TRUST...thats really crucial, i cannot underline that reality more emphatically.

    so MAYBE it is time to buy that second place, if you are so blessed, just to start getting your face known, because when i think about the "open road" visions of that very very grim film, "The Road" come to mind...may God grant everyone their hearts desire is my fervent prayer, who knows? we might meet, dont worry, i'm one of the good guys, i'd rather die than let a dark time turn me bad.

    i remember watching this film, "The Road" in the theater with my then 13 year old son, i was sitting SILENTLY weeping, and SO FULL OF FEAR....know why?...i wasnt SURE i could protect him from death, and that just undid me. i dont even want to tell you how many rounds i bought online THAT night...now its a dim bad memory, so i understand what the FEAR is like...i know its tough, but fight the fear as best as you can....its our worst enemy. again may the Hand of God be on you and with you, forever. Shea.

    ps. check out how different trailer 1 is, intensely grim, from trailer 2 hollywoody-ish...marketing, they even market doom...jeepers.




  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Rohan
    Posts
    1,160
    Quote Originally Posted by Double_A View Post
    A while back there was info that County in Colorado that was going to block off roads leading into it to block outsiders. If was never clarified if they would block people passing through in transit.

    After Katrina a local rural Sheriff & deputies stopped a Disaster Medical team convoy heading in to help. They looted their vehicles and personal property of the medics at gun point. FBI took care of the issue. I'm not sure that's been generally publicized.
    sure hasnt been publicized, and i just got done writing you might have to watch out if county mounties turn into bandits with uniforms..okay, reckon my gut instinct was right. thats bad news for sure. one more darn thing to worry about, huh? strange days my brother.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    S. Texas
    Posts
    6,766
    County in TX disaster contingency plan, if Y2K had caused limited fuel & food re-supply,
    was going to not allow entry into county without a drivers license that showed residency
    there and also stores and gas stations would not sell to non-residents without same.

    Also, can't get into details, but during Katrina, there was a very well outfitted, state of
    the art, mobile com disaster relief truck run by a national church that got confiscated
    by FEMA for their own use, which was bad enough, but they were never compensated.

    Having gotten the goods is only half the solution, keeping them will be the other half.
    Moving them, after TSHTF, increases by many fold the risk you'll ever be able to.

    - Shane
    THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT NUCLEAR DESTRUCTION!
    WHAT TO DO IF A NUCLEAR DISASTER IS IMMINENT!
    When An ill Wind Blows From Afar! (Overseas Fallout)

    "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
    the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
    - Proverbs 22:3

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    yankee baptist land
    Posts
    12,858
    so where's the discussion about fuel?

    unless you have several barrels of diesel or gasoline for your bugout vehicle, you won't be going far after the lights are out and the dust settles (couple of months after the lights go out).

    here's a suggestion: peruse this site and prepare to spend some money to join and find out how do do it yourself
    http://www.driveonwood.com/

    and if that's doesn't seem the right fit for you, then there's this:
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/c...guid=426069867
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    - Ronald Reagan

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding,
    acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will direct your path.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    S. Texas
    Posts
    6,766
    Or this...

    www.gekgasifier.com

    - Shane
    THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT NUCLEAR DESTRUCTION!
    WHAT TO DO IF A NUCLEAR DISASTER IS IMMINENT!
    When An ill Wind Blows From Afar! (Overseas Fallout)

    "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
    the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
    - Proverbs 22:3

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by shane View Post
    Bugging out for a distance of more than a couple counties around you
    via well known back roads, after TSHTF, is gonna be very tough, IMO.

    - Shane

    i go with this too

    the grace period (days at most) immediately after shtf is the only small window

    then the caravan rolling heavy may have a chance

    after that soldiers of fortune with road blocks will rule like trolls
    Pragmatic. Eclectic. Realistic.

    The BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth! Read it yourself. Live it. Love it.

    Vivere Paratus: Fortune Favors the Prepared

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