Here's a Video of Homeless Man Being Shot by Six Police Officers in Saginaw Michigan

[doctor_fungcool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W-Wo...layer_embedded

Supposedly the man was mentally ill, and he had a knife in hand. He was belligerent, and had a record.

There were six officers facing the man. All six opened fire.

I'm not skilled enough in the law to declare that this shoot wasn't righteous . However, what I am going to say is that shootings like this one will eventually cause 'blow back' on the cities involved and possibility on other cities that aren't involved.

Here in Michigan, many of the mental health facilities that once served the communities were closed in the late 1980's, and early 1990's. TPTB decided to save money by shuttering their doors.

As the homeless population grows, and as folks become more and more desperate, scenes like the one in this video will become more and more commonplace.

We are setting ourselves up for a race war, there's no doubt about it.

[China Connection]

Make sure there are thirty six of you with guns and six police. Sounds about right.

[MtnGal]

And people still think our military and LEO's won't shoot Americans.

[Rebel1955]

When you approach them with a knife,YES they will.

[doctor_fungcool]

And people still think our military and LEO's won't shoot Americans.

A couple of things MtnGal. The police have a very tough job. They must make snap decisions, and stand by those decisions for the rest of their lives.I posted this
info because at the present time, much of what the police do (especially if there is shooting involved) ends up on Youtube. I'm not going to debate whether the police did a proper kill or not. I wasn't there. However, I will state, in no uncertain terms, that police actions are now under a magnifying glass. Misinterpretation of what has happened regarding a video in which the police have killed a perp is always a possibility. Also, the fact that six officers shot this guy, all firing at once was disturbing. Anyone of these killings can and will at some point result in adverse reactions from the communities involved. We are at the brink.

[doctor_fungcool]

Here's a rant from a poster at another forum. This rant is from a LEO. Hope it clears things up a bit.

Okay... Here's my rant. Who here would like to be the first volunteer to tackle a mentally ill, assaultive psychopath who's waving around a knife? I'm guessing the knife wasn't part of plastic spork set from KFC. Folks, that is a deadly force situation no matter how you look at it. Cops aren't trained to tackle armed subjects, they are trained to stop the threat in accordance with a carefully constructed use of force model that is approved by the DOJ. Albeit, 6 cops and 30 plus rounds sounds excessive, but you and I both weren't there so the only judging we can commit to is from a reflection of our inherited standards and values of human life that our parents and life experiences instilled in our emotional and psychological programming. Most of you wouldn't dare murder anyone or even think of it. Most of you wouldn't even start a fight, especially with six cops. Don't ever assume that someone else has the same standards and morals that you do, that could be a fatal mistake as the cold steel blade slashes through your windpipe and the warm, salty blood begins to fill your lungs because you got too close. Tazing or pepper spraying an armed-assaultive person does not guarantee that they will drop their weapon and depending on what kind of drugs they have coursing through their veins, the taze or spray might not even have any effect anyway. So what is it you cry babies want to have happen, the pyscho stab seven children at a day care after he gets away? How about slit the throat of a innocent bystander who is pregnant with twins? In those situations all of you would be screaming that the cops never did anything to protect those people. Cops have families and want to go home to them at the end of their shift just as much as any of you would. I wouldn't dream of stepping towards anyone who has any intentions of stabbing me with any type of edged or disintegrating my cranium with a blunt weapon... not gonna happen. There also is no training to support the idea of warning shots or "winging" the subject like shooting them in the leg to disable them. Leg shots have a high probability of missing and sometimes even a direct hit won't disable a person who might not be responsive to the wounds in the first place. By then, the subject could get within that "kill zone" and stab each one of your internal organs in alphabetical order before you can squeeze off another round to defend yourself.

I will agree it is tragic that this situation happened like it did, but there are too many factors that would have to be weighed in on before I could have the opinion that these officers did anything wrong. Oh and in case you're wonder I've been in law enforcement for almost 20 years. And it never gets easier. Everyday there is a chance that I might have to make that decision to stop an assailant dead in his tracks. It's actually a very scary thought.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, most LEO's aren't trained to handle the kind of situations that we all will face in the coming months and years. They are not the army. At some point in time, this will present a problem for everyone of us.

NOTE: This particular video may be a case of overkill.....however, that's just my opinion. Other than that, the LEO's rant seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Sasquatch]

I don't know the rules of engagement for LEO but something just don't add up here.

1. Talk of a police dog but I never saw the police dog released before the shooting.

2. I would have expected the police to use their taser, seems like it's their weapon of choice lately, but not here.

3. Appeared the guy was moving in the opposite directed of the police, did they shoot him in the back?

[medic38572]

Do as I say or die! Or I wonder if he interrupted their daily morning donut meeting! Or please call 911 make a cop come and execute you!

[medic38572]

I don't know the rules of engagement for LEO but something just don't add up here.

1. Talk of a police dog but I never saw the police dog released before the shooting.

2. I would have expected the police to use their taser, seems like it's their weapon of choice lately, but not here.

3. Appeared the guy was moving in the opposite directed of the police, did they shoot him in the back?

From what I seen he was executed. That is why the investigation is taking so long. As some here would say nothing here to see! I love they the police chief. He has a history not only with us but the county. Like that makes it alright for his mean and women to execute people? WTF

[medic38572]

Here's another one executed Doc. Blue Ash, Ohio

[Warthog]

Looks bad, but we haven't been in court yet. I'm also sure at least a few, or maybe all of the patrol cars had a video cameras.

[Buckster]

What a bunch of cowards.

They are bloodthirsty psychopaths. All of them. Period.

ONE shot to the leg and it would be all over.

You know???? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Goofs.

Murderers.

AmeriKa.

Wake up.

[Achilles]

What a bunch of cowards.

They are bloodthirsty psychopaths. All of them. Period.

ONE shot to the leg and it would be all over.

You know???? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Goofs.

Murderers.

AmeriKa.

Wake up.

Been a cop long?

[DHR43]

Absolute, complete and total over-reaction. A man that has caused a scuffle with a store attendant and is behaving a bit off is nowhere near sufficient reason to be executed by cowards with guns.

[NBCsurvivor]

All the rantings and ravings will do no good to either side.

The line has been drawn for some time now.

You are either with them or against them.

When things go south, there's a reason 99% of them won't be wearing uniforms or badges folks.

[DHR43]

"You are either with them or against them."

For the benighted among us, including me, please identify specifically who the "Them" are that you referred to. Don't beat around the bush - get specific and detailed.

I'd like to know who the "them" are, and then I can see how "them" are related to that guy who was killed.

This will be educational and helpful.

Thanks.

[medic38572]

"You are either with them or against them."

For the benighted among us, including me, please identify specifically who the "Them" are that you referred to. Don't beat around the bush - get specific and detailed.

I'd like to know who the "them" are, and then I can see how "them" are related to that guy who was killed.

This will be educational and helpful.

Thanks.

He is talking about Them the police meaning you are with them the police or against them the police. the 99% are officers who will be protecting their families when it goes down because they will be to afraid to do their jobs in fear for the acts they have commited as in the video.

[Thomas Paine]

[QUOTE=Sasquatch;4524548]I don't know the rules of engagement for LEO but something just don't add up here.

1. Talk of a police dog but I never saw the police dog released before the shooting.

[/Quote} I wouldn't release a dog on a knife weilding subject.

2. I would have expected the police to use their taser, seems like it's their weapon of choice lately, but not here.

Taser is a less lethal option, knife is lethal force, you use lethal force on to answer lethal force.

3. Appeared the guy was moving in the opposite directed of the police, did they shoot him in the back?

He appeared to be moving laterally.There was an officer from the white patrol car on the left(A Deputy?) I cannot account for, maybe there was an officer in that direction that could not be accounted for or seen? Another thing is if he still had the knife in his had and refused to drop it and refuse to comply they had to prevent him form turning a stationary 3 ring circus into a roving 3 ring circus .Big Boy Rules folks play with fire you get burned.

[medic38572]

they had to prevent him form turning a stationary 3 ring circus into a roving 3 ring circus. Big Boy Rules folks play with fire you get burned.

Yep all 30 rounds worth!

[blueinterceptor]

so many monday morning quarterbacks. the most difficult decision most people make is what color socks to wear that day. police officer make life and death decisions and have to live with the decisions and listen to the untrained/inexperienced pass judgement upon them. the military has it right when they are judged by their piers (other military). there are so many dynamics that come into play with dpf situations. knives, baseball bats, cars almost any object can cause death or a serious physical injury if used the wrong way. it does not have to be a gun. knives have a 21 foot rule for a reason. police officer do not shoot people in the leg or arm because they are mobile and move easily, thus being missed easily. if your grand daughter was behind the suspect and was hit, you would have something else to say. Do NOT fight with the police and you will NOT get hurt by the police.

[Buckster]

so many monday morning quarterbacks. the most difficult decision most people make is what color socks to wear that day. police officer make life and death decisions and have to live with the decisions and listen to the untrained/inexperienced pass judgement upon them. the military has it right when they are judged by their piers (other military). there are so many dynamics that come into play with dpf situations. knives, baseball bats, cars almost any object can cause death or a serious physical injury if used the wrong way. it does not have to be a gun. knives have a 21 foot rule for a reason. police officer do not shoot people in the leg or arm because they are mobile and move easily, thus being missed easily. if your grand daughter was behind the suspect and was hit, you would have something else to say. Do NOT fight with the police and you will NOT get hurt by the police.

At close range (which they were), trained cops should be able to hit the legs. AND btw, there was nobody behind him even if they did miss. Obviously, people had vacated the area. duhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I still say they are bloodthirsty cowards.

Cowards.

No excuse.

[Achilles]

At close range (which they were), trained cops should be able to hit the legs. AND btw, there was nobody behind him even if they did miss. Obviously, people had vacated the area. duhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I still say they are bloodthirsty cowards.

Cowards.

No excuse.

Please tell us more about how the situation should have been handled properly. You clearly have better grasp of deadly force encounters than not only the officers on scene, but your knowledgeable is also superior to the officers on this board who have dealt with situations for real.

Please enlighten us further. Shoot him in the leg. OK, he is shot in the leg and still has a knife and a bad attitude, now what? Better hurry because he is bleeding out now.

[medic38572]

so many monday morning quarterbacks. the most difficult decision most people make is what color socks to wear that day. police officer make life and death decisions and have to live with the decisions and listen to the untrained/inexperienced pass judgement upon them. the military has it right when they are judged by their piers (other military). there are so many dynamics that come into play with dpf situations. knives, baseball bats, cars almost any object can cause death or a serious physical injury if used the wrong way. it does not have to be a gun. knives have a 21 foot rule for a reason. police officer do not shoot people in the leg or arm because they are mobile and move easily, thus being missed easily. if your grand daughter was behind the suspect and was hit, you would have something else to say. Do NOT fight with the police and you will NOT get hurt by the police.

Actually it is Saturday Morning quarterbacking.

When you folks in blue are right your right. When your wrong, your wrong, and this was was wrong on so many level's. Call me a quarterback, call me an inexperienced asshole, call me whatever you want. How many times have we heard on here the amount of force used should only be measurable to stop the attack. At the time of the shooting the suspect (who initially was the caller for assistance) took 3 steps to the side and then the shooting started. 30 - 45 rounds! 30 - 45 rounds to stop a man holding a knife who hadn't threatened anyone with it in the video just holding refusing to drop it.

Yea, I have heard that bullshit all my career, we make life or death decisions, better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6. I can agree with that, have no problem with that. But this was murder plain and simple. Be glad I wouldn't be on the jury!

[medic38572]

Police in Milton Hall Saginaw Shooting Say Video/Audio Equipment Didn't Work, But Shooting Justified. Go figure!

[Rabbit]

So what do we learn from this? That cops only taz people when they can't legally shoot them. What kind of knife was he holding a butcher knife or a butter knife?

[NBCsurvivor]

"You are either with them or against them."

For the benighted among us, including me, please identify specifically who the "Them" are that you referred to. Don't beat around the bush - get specific and detailed.

I'd like to know who the "them" are, and then I can see how "them" are related to that guy who was killed.

This will be educational and helpful.

Thanks.

"Them" = LEO (local, state, federal etc.)

[Thomas Paine]

Yep all 30 rounds worth!

He could have put the knife down he didn't have to do what he did. He had a choice his choice forced the cops to make a choice .I will take a dead knife wielding crazy shot mutiple times over a dead or mangled citizen /cop any day of the week.There are certain choice if you make them in this life that have really, really, bad consequences. This guy made one.

[m.anderson]

You don't have to be a Monday morning quarterback to know that
six cops firing 30 rounds into one person is just a bit much.

But then again cops are known for not being able to hit the broad
side of a barn even if the barrel of their gun was against the side.

I would really be embarrassed to have to admit to being one of the six
pussys I mean cops.

[Sasquatch]

[QUOTE=Thomas Paine;4525010]

I don't know the rules of engagement for LEO but something just don't add up here.

1. Talk of a police dog but I never saw the police dog released before the shooting.

I wouldn't release a dog on a knife weilding subject. Taser is a less lethal option, knife is lethal force, you use lethal force on to answer lethal force.

I've seen dogs released after suspected armed subjects before, so I don't agree.
Taser is less lethal, which I have been told is the preferred option locally.

He appeared to be moving laterally.There was an officer from the white patrol car on the left(A Deputy?) I cannot account for, maybe there was an officer in that direction that could not be accounted for or seen?

With this I have no idea since I can't tell his direction.

Another thing is if he still had the knife in his had and refused to drop it and refuse to comply they had to prevent him form turning a stationary 3 ring circus into a roving 3 ring circus .Big Boy Rules folks play with fire you get burned.

This is really determined by where you live.

so many monday morning quarterbacks. the most difficult decision most people make is what color socks to wear that day. police officer make life and death decisions and have to live with the decisions and listen to the untrained/inexperienced pass judgement upon them. the military has it right when they are judged by their piers (other military). there are so many dynamics that come into play with dpf situations. knives, baseball bats, cars almost any object can cause death or a serious physical injury if used the wrong way. it does not have to be a gun. knives have a 21 foot rule for a reason. police officer do not shoot people in the leg or arm because they are mobile and move easily, thus being missed easily. if your grand daughter was behind the suspect and was hit, you would have something else to say. Do NOT fight with the police and you will NOT get hurt by the police.

I really WISH that were true; there are far too many officers that have become jaded causing them to have a propensity for violence.

I have no bone to pick with cops, I have been stopped here on a back country road at 11:30pm for doing 72 in a 55. I had my 357 on the console and a 380 in the door pocket, Trooper asked if 30 days to pay was enough or if I needed 60 days.

I have also been stopped in San Diego for no front license plate and had guns drawn on me.

Really depends where you live when determining how local LEO's respond to a situation.

[waahoo]

Just a couple of quick observations from my perspective as a long time member going back to the original greenspun and cs2k forum boards, as well as a person who has carried equipment for extreme prejudice situations.

1. That there has been an increase of employee's who should never, and I mean ever, carry a tool of lethal force in their employment by federal, state and local law enforcement is a truth without question. This includes all branches of the armed forces.

However, over the top reactions by many on the different discussion boards I frequent have made me curious how many have ever worked a hot zone. Which leads to:

2. Who would be cheering this scenario if the threat (knife wielding wacko) was terminated by a store owner/manager and an employee or two exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights?

[Thomas Paine]

On the number of rounds fired my agency teaches firing of 3-5 rds every time you fire.We only fire 2 rounds once during quials and that's at 25 yards. So 6 cops shooting 40 or so rounds is not that out of school especially since you are taught to shoot till the BG is down or no longer a threat. I personally think a factor is the use of high cap pistols by LE and the use of volume instead of precision but that is a personal theory.

[Thomas Paine]

Just a couple of quick observations from my perspective as a long time member going back to the original greenspun and cs2k forum boards, as well as a person who has carried equipment for extreme prejudice situations.

1. That there has been an increase of employee's who should never, and I mean ever, carry a tool of lethal force in their employment by federal, state and local law enforcement is a truth without question. This includes all branches of the armed forces.

Surprise I agree LE has been swamped with people ho 30 years ago would have bene managers and long term employees at mid level jobs in other professions were critical decisionmaking under pressure and dealing with the threat of or with violence wasn't a factor.Hell my local PD was getting people apply who had never been in a fist fight before I left to go to work for the G.

However, over the top reactions by many on the different discussion boards I frequent have made me curious how many have ever worked a hot zone. Which leads to:

2. Who would be cheering this scenario if the threat (knife wielding wacko) was terminated by a store owner/manager and an employee or two exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights?

A lot of folks would be high fiving and chest bumping ewach other figutively if a ccw had done this. I will admit if a ccw had done this 2-5 shots would have been all that was fired because most cops can't shoot for shit.

[medic38572]

Just a couple of quick observations from my perspective as a long time member going back to the original greenspun and cs2k forum boards, as well as a person who has carried equipment for extreme prejudice situations.

1. That there has been an increase of employee's who should never, and I mean ever, carry a tool of lethal force in their employment by federal, state and local law enforcement is a truth without question. This includes all branches of the armed forces.

However, over the top reactions by many on the different discussion boards I frequent have made me curious how many have ever worked a hot zone. Which leads to:

2. Who would be cheering this scenario if the threat (knife wielding wacko) was terminated by a store owner/manager and an employee or two exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights?

Although I understand exactly what you are saying. We have 2 different scenarios here. We don't have a situation where this man was terminated by a store owner exercising his / her rights in defending themselves or their customers from robbery.

We have a mentally unstable man known by police who has the tendency to become violent and has contacts by both the county and city officers, that according to the police chief. The man called 911 for assistance and police arrived. Don't ask me what happened for him to call cause it doesn't say other then problems with the clerk at the store. Police arrive man has knife. Police and man talk back and forth man tells them he is pissed. Go ahead send the mfing dog in. man takes 3 steps back and to the right and bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang mans falling down bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang. Man didn't threaten them in the video but now he is dead.

What in your professional opinion did those Richard Noggins do to try and defuse the situation? Not a thing but scream and holler to a mentally ill person.

You Officers out there wonder why that your not respected, why they hate you, why they write songs about killing you. This is a prime example of why!

[Ravekid]

At close range (which they were), trained cops should be able to hit the legs. AND btw, there was nobody behind him even if they did miss. Obviously, people had vacated the area. duhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I still say they are bloodthirsty cowards.

Cowards.

No excuse.

So the same rules should apply to all gun owners, cops or not...right? I mean I know plenty of gun owners who train more than cops. If someone breaks into their home and they are at close range yet shoot them center body mass and kill the person, does that make the home owner a bloodthirsty coward? You 'shoot to wound' folks blow my mind. You folks are all for 'shoot to wound' when it is the cops doing the shooting, but when it is you or one of your loved ones are friends in a self-defense situation, you want those folks under a different set of rules.

You don't have to be a Monday morning quarterback to know that
six cops firing 30 rounds into one person is just a bit much.

But then again cops or know for not being able to hit the broad
side of a barn even if the barrel of their gun was against the side.

I would really be embarrassed to have to admit to being one of the six
pussys I mean cops.

So someone comes at you with a knife, you won't shoot them to defend yourself? Oh, you would...why not go hands on, or are you a pussy? People don't realize the issue isn't if the shooting was justified or not, it is the complete demand from the populace that police handle all these dangerous situations. Police are humans too you know. If you say you would shoot someone with a knife threatening you, why can't another human do the same thing? In this case, the results are predictable: Six guns+danger+semi-automatic loading+double digit round capacity+nerves on edge=situations like this. Don't want things like this to happen, demand cops carry six shooter. Demand cops be disarmed of their firearms. Demand cops don't deal with dangerous people causing trouble. Demand cops don't even exist. How about we just save a bunch of money, layoff the cops, and just tell private citizens they are on their own. They can gather their own evidence, file their own cases in court, etc.? Vote for politicians who will make these sort of changes.

For all you keyboard commandos out there, if you think you can do a better job, time to put up or shut up:

http://www.saginawpolice.org/interestcard.htm

http://www.nypdrecruit.com/

http://www.joinlapd.com/

http://www.chicagopolice.org/answerthecall/

Come on...apply...help start making the change from within.

2. Who would be cheering this scenario if the threat (knife wielding wacko) was terminated by a store owner/manager and an employee or two exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights?

Don't worry, all those critics here would be singing a different tune if this guy walked into a gas station and three clerks unloaded 30 rounds into the guy. Or if some grandma found the guy in her house and used a 12 gauge to remove half his head instead of bird shot to the legs.

[Ravekid]

What in your professional opinion did those Richard Noggins do to try and defuse the situation? Not a thing but scream and holler to a mentally ill person.

You Officers out there wonder why that your not respected, why they hate you, why they write songs about killing you. This is a prime example of why!

So you agree the cops should never have to deal with these sort of situations? Of if the cop(s) pull up, man starts in with his screaming and yelling, you won't be screaming about how the cops "did nothing" when they leave the scene and go deal with something else? Or will you only scream if the guy ends up grabbing some civilian and causes injury after the cops show up and leave. What exactly should the response be in cases like this? No all these incidents will end up like this one. Sounds and appears to me that one person likely pulled the trigger, and that was a cascade of guns going off...just like at the range. What do we expect from humans? Maybe we should get on the fast track to robotic policing and take out the human factor? Do we demand cops only get one back-up officer in situations like this? What do we do to try to prevent these incidents when clearly many people will call 911 and not take care of the issue themselves?

[medic38572]

Bullshit, Rave the man didn't come at them with a knife! He didn't attack them. It would have been justified in my eyes if he had of. He didn't. How many people are killed by cops every year this way? How many are justified by your departments, by your prosecutors? How many of you are charged with murder or man slaughter charges? How many of you are fired for your action's that cause death and maiming? How many are charged with assault for kicking a man down after he is down and cuffed? The problem with law enforcement is they can't police themselves and feel justified in everything they do. Just like our Gov.

We all make mistakes the first part in learning is realizing them and changing! There is only one person that has ever said that he would step over that line and report a bad act by his other officers.

[medic38572]

So you agree the cops should never have to deal with these sort of situations? Of if the cop(s) pull up, man starts in with his screaming and yelling, you won't be screaming about how the cops "did nothing" when they leave the scene and go deal with something else? Or will you only scream if the guy ends up grabbing some civilian and causes injury after the cops show up and leave. What exactly should the response be in cases like this? No all these incidents will end up like this one. Sounds and appears to me that one person likely pulled the trigger, and that was a cascade of guns going off...just like at the range. What do we expect from humans? Maybe we should get on the fast track to robotic policing and take out the human factor? Do we demand cops only get one back-up officer in situations like this? What do we do to try to prevent these incidents when clearly many people will call 911 and not take care of the issue themselves?

Dude you have got it wrong, they did right, until they cut they man down. But they did nothing nothing at all on the video to defuse this situation.

Listen Rave I'm not a cop, I don't want to be a cop! At one time I thought that I did and did ride along's with others. I treat others with the golden rule, I treat them the way they want to be treated and that's the way that they treat me. There are good cops and bad cops. Like there are good medics and bad medics.

If you think this mans death is justifiable by gosh it must be. I'm just a person who noted that 46 rounds were fired at this man and some not even hitting him and went down range.

But I can promise you if on a jury with a case like this it will never be justified in my eyes.

[Buckster]

Originally posted by Ravekid:
So the same rules should apply to all gun owners, cops or not...right? I mean I know plenty of gun owners who train more than cops. If someone breaks into their home and they are at close range yet shoot them center body mass and kill the person, does that make the home owner a bloodthirsty coward? You 'shoot to wound' folks blow my mind. You folks are all for 'shoot to wound' when it is the cops doing the shooting, but when it is you or one of your loved ones are friends in a self-defense situation, you want those folks under a different set of rules.

This is a completely irrational response.

Comparing the OP situation to a B&E is ludicrous. The OP was outside where there was lots of space to move if necessary and broad daylight - no limited vision whatsoever. The close range should have guaranteed a hit on the leg(s) if these cowards wanted to. Then taser, if necessary to get knife if not already dropped. Or use baton if possible. Taser may not even be necessary.

A house break in is a different situation altogether. Four walls, limited space to move, limited vision due to low light likely. Shoot to body is more reasonable.

Does this common sense blow your mind?

Six grown men with guns in open space, with clear visibility, pooping their pants over one lone man with a knife.

Disgusting.

Cowards.

Fire 'em all.

[Buckster]

Please tell us more about how the situation should have been handled properly. You clearly have better grasp of deadly force encounters than not only the officers on scene, but your knowledgeable is also superior to the officers on this board who have dealt with situations for real.

Please enlighten us further. Shoot him in the leg. OK, he is shot in the leg and still has a knife and a bad attitude, now what? Better hurry because he is bleeding out now.

See previous post for your answer.

[Achilles]

See previous post for your answer.

So use deadly force first, and if it is ineffective switch to non-lethal force. Brilliant!

A couple of questions though. If our hobbling leg shot happens to sever his femoral artery and he dies in the next twenty seconds, our non-deadly use of deadly force just killed the suspect. Since you are promoting deadly force for compliance and control, will you accept those deaths where a leg shot was off the mark and killed the suspect in a situation where deadly force would not be otherwise authorized? Would a very real risk of death and/or permanent disability be an acceptable risk of your new compliance technique? If an officer executed your technique and was subsequently killed by the suspect, is that also an acceptable risk?

If closing with the armed suspect is necessary to ensure success, and closing that range now puts the officer inside the range where the suspect may act before the officer can react, us that also an acceptable risk?

Does this at all sound reasonable to you?