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LEGAL Obama Wins the Battle, Roberts Wins the War
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  1. #41
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    Is this a case of "he who laughs last"...???

    I, too, was shocked when Erick Erickson (www.redstate.com) came out saying this was a shrewd move by Justice Roberts that was actually a kind of "end run" around Obama that will take the wind OUT of his sails and make it HARDER to enforce Obamacare and EASIER to repeal it.

    Here's his diary entry today, explaining (in part) his take on it:

    I’m Not Down on John Roberts

    Posted by Erick Erickson (Diary)

    Thursday, June 28th at 11:35AM EDT
    384 Comments

    Having gone through the opinion, I am not going to beat up on John Roberts. I am disappointed, but I want to make a few points.

    First, I get the strong sense from a few anecdotal stories about Roberts over the past few months and the way he has written this opinion that he very, very much was concerned about keeping the Supreme Court above the partisan fray and damaging the reputation of the Court long term. It seems to me the left was smart to make a full frontal assault on the Court as it persuaded Roberts.

    Second, in writing his case, Roberts forces everyone to deal with the issue as a political, not a legal issue. In the past twenty years, Republicans have punted a number of issues to the Supreme Court asking the Court to save us from ourselves. They can’t do that with Roberts. They tried with McCain-Feingold, which was originally upheld. This case is a timely reminder to the GOP that five votes are not a sure thing.

    Third, while Roberts has expanded the taxation power, which I don’t really think is a massive expansion from what it was, Roberts has curtailed the commerce clause as an avenue for Congressional overreach. In so doing, he has affirmed the Democrats are massive taxers. In fact, I would argue that this may prevent future mandates in that no one is going to go around campaigning on new massive tax increases. On the upside, I guess we can tax the hell out of abortion now. Likewise, in a 7 to 2 decision, the Court shows a strong majority still recognize the concept of federalism and the restrains of Congress in forcing states to adhere to the whims of the federal government.

    Fourth, in forcing us to deal with this politically, the Democrats are going to have a hard time running to November claiming the American people need to vote for them to preserve Obamacare. It remains deeply, deeply unpopular with the American people. If they want to make a vote for them a vote for keeping a massive tax increase, let them try.

    Fifth, the decision totally removes a growing left-wing talking point that suddenly they must vote for Obama because of judges. The Supreme Court as a November issue is gone.

    Finally, while I am not down on John Roberts like many of you are today, I will be very down on Congressional Republicans if they do not now try to shut down the individual mandate. Force the Democrats on the record about the mandate. Defund Obamacare. This now, by necessity, is a political fight and the GOP sure as hell should fight.

    60% of Americans agree with them on the issue. And guess what? The Democrats have been saying for a while that individual pieces of Obamacare are quite popular. With John Roberts’ opinion, the repeal fight takes place on GOP turf, not Democrat turf. The all or nothing repeal has always been better ground for the GOP and now John Roberts has forced everyone onto that ground. Oh, and as I mentioned earlier, because John Roberts concluded it was a tax, the Democrats cannot filibuster its repeal because of the same reconciliation procedure the Democrats used to pass it.

    It seems very, very clear to me in reviewing John Roberts’ decision that he is playing a much longer game than us and can afford to with a life tenure. And he probably just handed Mitt Romney the White House.

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/0...-john-roberts/
    __________________________________________________ __

    Now some things Erickson explained on his radio show today, that the above didn't, is that a "tax" cannot be selectively applied---by rule of law and by case law already on the books, any tax has to be applied equally to all.

    You know what that does?

    Obama CAN NOT give ANY ONE or ANY GROUP a "pass" on paying this tax.

    EVERYONE will have to pay it.

    THERE CAN BE NO EXEMPTIONS.

    Not for unions.

    Not for Muslims.

    Not for any reason.



    If that is true, then Obama has been celebrating entirely too soon.


    Another point Erickson made is that if it is a "tax", then again by case law NO ONE CAN BE FORCED TO PAY A TAX OWED BY ANOTHER PERSON.

    He then explained that what that means is that organizations such as the Catholic Church CANNOT be FORCED to pay this "tax" on behalf of its employees---because each person is responsible for their OWN payment of their OWN tax.

    I don't think Obama has realized or thought it out that far, that this gives the Catholic Church an "out" for paying the "tax" on behalf of its employees.


    Maybe---if this works out the way Erickson is thinking it will, then maybe Judge Roberts isn't so crazy after all----or maybe he's just "crazy like a fox".
    The only "change" I CAN believe in: I Corinthians 15: 51-52!


    WAKE ME WHEN IT'S OVER....

  2. #42
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    I hear people screaming here that 'OH NO! TAXATION! It will kill us all!

    What the hell are we paying now? M&Ms? Taxes have been with us all along. What Roberts did was shut the door on the whole commerce clause.

    In his statement he did say that IT IS UP TO THE PEOPLE. You don't want more tax? Vote the bustards out!

    Everything now that Mussobama says about his precious health care plan people will see 900 billion dollars, the largest tax hike in American history!

    Roberts just told Mussobama to call a spade a spade, a tax is a tax.

    Don't forget, there were a lot of people that wanted this health plan............they didn't want higher taxes.

    In the end, it will have to be the people, not the govt. that says no to the health plan.

    Vote the bustards OUT!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas Parker View Post
    Read the post again, very carefully. Roberts just gutted the "commerce clause". Presuming that Romney is elected, along with a whole bunch of new senators and congress-critters giving the GOP a majority in both houses, Obamacare's lifespan runs exactly from today until Inauguration Day 2013! Immediately after which, it dies a quick legislative death.

    If the Dems take control of both the House and the Senate, and manage to reelect Bams, they no longer have the ability to misuse the commerce clause.

    Using Robert's ruling, any congressional overreach of the commerce clause can be challenged. Congress CAN tax, but CANNOT mandate using the commerce clause.
    Well, I guess that makes Roberts a hero in "some" eyes - I can't really type what it makes him in my eyes.
    Barack Hussein Abdullah Obama will BE re-elected and this is only going to get worse. For anyone to say that Roberts did a good thing will be playing a part in keeping hope alive and keeping opposition placated.
    Male bovine excrement - this is a done deal and America and her constitution and freedoms are toast. All the men and women who sacrificed their lives for those freedoms died in vain today and Roberts is being made to look "good" - Pfffftttt.
    The people of the United States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. Abraham Lincoln, 1859

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidpup View Post
    If there were any short-term political strategizing with this ruling, that would make me sick. In my mind, the ruling essentially states that the federal government can tax and spend unlimited amounts for any possible reason. The 10th amendment is now toilet paper...
    Nope because on the issue of medicare funding the court ruled the feds couldn't penalize the states for not increasing benefits or taxes to cover said benefits as it violated the 10th amendment.At least that's the way I understand it. This wasn't a win for us but it wasn't a kill them all victory for the other side either.
    To all who have died in the name, protection, and pursuit of freedom rest easy my brothers your task is done.This weight now falls upon me and those like me in spirit, belief, dedication.

    "Don't look away. All life is transitory, a dream. We all come together in the same place, at the end of time. If I don't see you again here, I will see you, in a little while, in a place where no shadows fall."

  5. #45
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    Let us say hypothetically there is a Republican sweep in November, and the GOP takes the White House and both houses of Congress by large majorities. All this talk about repealing Obamacare is just that: talk. It's not going to happen. In reality this is not universal healthcare or single payer healthcare. It is legislation written for and by insurance companies and the healthcare industry. Any attempt to repeal the mandate will be met by a massive lobbying effort from health insurance companies, and the Republicans will cave to the money-men, which is what Republicans and most other politicians always do.

  6. #46
    yep boys, we got em where we want em now, by dingy
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a peaky raven?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Traveler View Post
    You may be right and you may be wrong about number one. Congress enacted this law as a whole. They can repeal it as a whole.
    We as a people want instant gratification and we didnt get it so now we are all pissed off. But think for a minute, by the justices saying this is a tax, now does a few things. One it does hold Congress back reagarding the commerce clause and that is a big thing whether people realize it or not regarding states rights. Secondly, we all sit here saying obama has to go, the democrats have to go, the RINO's have to go, well now we have the opportunity to use this against them. Its a tax, it is one of the largest if not the largest tax ever placed on the American people in peace time. It gives the Republicans plenty of cannon shot for the next few months to show how the dems and obama passed the largest tax increase in history. If we the people work to get the right people in Congress this whole mess can be repealed as well as the immigration fiasco we are faced with. Yeah, we didnt get our immediate gratification, so lets all be part of the solution and get the right people into the right places to make things better and we get our longterm gratification. Flame away...
    No flames, just good discussion over a couple (ok, few) bourbons...

    After digesting this a little more two thoughts come to mind....First, it really scares the p^ss out of me if the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is little more than a minor pupeteer in a R vs. D game. I can deal with vastly different principles, points of view, etc., but if the Chief Justice is just jackin' around with blue v. red, we are seriously hosed.

    Second, I can't help but think the Democracy Now crowd has scored big. It seems we are moving further down the road of abandoning the Constitution, in favor of whatever-the-latest-ballot-proposition is (i.e. two wolves & a sheep voting on dinner). If you're correct, this ruling might as well abandoned the Constitution & stated that from here on out we'll just let elections decide everything; no limits, no rules of the Federal governement. Is this what we want - a never-ending game of R-v-D? Will we ever be a stable nation that way? Will we truly have guaranteed rights any more? (rhetorical questions).

    As Dennis noted, the unintended consequences from this is mind-blowing....If these farking iceholes are just playing election games, God help us.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bicycle Junkie View Post
    Let us say hypothetically there is a Republican sweep in November, and the GOP takes the White House and both houses of Congress by large majorities. All this talk about repealing Obamacare is just that: talk. It's not going to happen. In reality this is not universal healthcare or single payer healthcare. It is legislation written for and by insurance companies and the healthcare industry. Any attempt to repeal the mandate will be met by a massive lobbying effort from health insurance companies, and the Republicans will cave to the money-men, which is what Republicans and most other politicians always do.

    Yup. Read this thread if you don't believe this...

    http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showt...19#post4466519

  9. #49
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    The OP is HORSE SHIT. Nothing more, nothing less (with no disrespect to the poster.)

    This is typical Republican shill spin to keep the minions in line.

    We are supposed to believe that Roberts is so brilliant that he turns his back on all the other conservative justices to hatch some hidden plan?

    A plan we have no guarantee will work?

    Is there a man or woman here that believes that ONE Founder would have supported ObamaCare? Just one?

    Thanks a lot G. W. Bush for putting this NEOCON pussy of a man on the Court.

    Thanks Rush Limbaugh for telling people today, "It's going to be ok in the long run."

    Sure, pacify the masses. That is what SHILLS are paid to do.

    Palmetto
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves…freely, his sly whispers…heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims...he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.” Cicero

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  10. #50
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    Roberts: Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Congress already possesses expansive power to regulate what people do. Upholding the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clause would give Congress the same license to regulate what people do not do. The Framers knew the difference between doing something and doing nothing. They gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it. Ignoring that distinction would undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited and enumerated powers. The individual mandate thus cannot be sustained under Congress’s power to “regulate Commerce".”
    Here's my take on this. We all know that the only way Obama care would work is by forcing a sufficient number of persons to buy insurance to pay for it. And many, especially young people are not buying it, not entering into commerce, to pay for it. And Roberts is saying they cannot be forced to buy insurance. So this kills the funding mechanism for the entire bill.

    And I also agree that the Repubs will not do much of anything (despite the talk) unless they are forced to. Mittens has written his own version of socialist health care for his state.
    The system is not broke. It's fixed.

  11. #51
    One of the most important elements in the ruling is that the fed gov cannot "coerce" the states into participating in Obamacare by mandating their participation under the threat of rescinding all current funding for existing Medicaid programs. This was declared unconstitutional by 7 out of 9 judges! This means that Roberts preserved federalism and states rights, in that now the states can "opt out" of Obamacare without penalty or financial punishment by the fed gov. If they do opt out, those states and their citizens are under no obligation to conform to the rest of the law. 26 states have already filed suit, claiming "coercion." If they all opt out, over half our states and all of their citizens will NOT be participating in Obamacare.

    "Cease, Man, to mourn, to weep, to wail; enjoy the shining hour of sun;
    We dance along Death's icy brink, but is the dance less full of fun?"
    -Sir Richard Burton, "The Kasidah"

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoozin View Post
    One of the most important elements in the ruling is that the fed gov cannot "coerce" the states into participating in Obamacare by mandating their participation under the threat of rescinding all current funding for existing Medicaid programs. This was declared unconstitutional by 7 out of 9 judges! This means that Roberts preserved federalism and states rights, in that now the states can "opt out" of Obamacare without penalty or financial punishment by the fed gov. If they do opt out, those states and their citizens are under no obligation to conform to the rest of the law. 26 states have already filed suit, claiming "coercion." If they all opt out, over half our states and all of their citizens will NOT be participating in Obamacare.


    Believe that?

    I have some oceanfront property in AZ for sale.

    Roberts gutted state's rights and the Tenth Amendment yesterday when he ruled against AZ upholding "Federal" law. The reason AZ passed the law in the first place is because AZ is being invaded and the Feds aren't protecting the border or the citizens of this country. DHS will no longer cooperate with the state. So he is against "Federalism" yesterday but today we are supposed to buy into the spin that he has some brilliant plan to save Federalism? Right.

    What about the 20 million illegals that you and my tax dollars pay for their healthcare, schooling, WIC, Food Stamps, et. al.? If he had any balls or brains he would see what is happening to our nation.

    Today's decision is worse yet. We are being told that this was "brilliant" and that his ruling for ObamaCare is going to save Federalism in the end. Yea right! That is like loosing the World Series on purpose to make a point to the other team in the hopes you can come back next year and win. He could have won the Series AND made his point at the same time.

    A friend of his was interviewed tonight and he said Roberts was worried about his legacy and the legacy of the Court.

    Horsehockey....

    Palmetto
    Last edited by Palmetto; 06-28-2012 at 11:38 PM.
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves…freely, his sly whispers…heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims...he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.” Cicero

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  13. #53
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    Roberts was paid million from TARP funds and into an acount at the Vatican Bank.The whistler blower also named others, some generals,some from the media and others in the governmnet. Just wait till all the others earn their bribe money

  14. #54
    I just saw this comment on Freep. If the poster verifies it or his source, I'll add to the thread.

    John Robert's changed his vote at the last minute under duress.

    The reason he changed his vote at the 11th hour was a form of soft extortion.

    Ruth Bader Ginsberg threatened to announce her retirement at the end of this term and give Obama the chance to appoint a new Justice in her place if Obama Care was overturned.

    If Roberts changed his vote and not strike down ObamaCare she agreed not to retire until the next Presidential term.

    Under the circumstances he did his best to come up with the best possible compromise with Ginsberg - one that put the future of ObamaCare directly in the hands of voters in this next election. The fate of Obama Care is now firmly in the hands of the electorate and 2012 will be a referendum on Obama Care.
    Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
    Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya

    Leave illusion, come to the Truth
    Leave the darkness, come to the Light

  15. #55
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    Just say "NO!"

    http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-care-law?lite

    For individuals who choose to not comply with the individual insurance mandate, Congress deliberately chose to make the penalty fairly weak: only $95 for 2014; $325 for 2015; and $695 in 2016.

    After 2016, that $695 amount is indexed to the consumer price index.

    Congress specifically did not allow the use of liens and seizures of property as methods of enforcing the penalty.

    Non-compliance with the mandate is also not subject to criminal or civil penalties under the Tax Code and interest does not accrue for failure to pay the penalty in a timely manner, according to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation.

    NBC's Pete Williams reported that Roberts reasoned that “there’s no real compulsion here” since those who do not pay the penalty for not having insurance can’t be sent to jail. “This is one of the scenarios that administration officials had considered that if the court did this they would consider it a big victory,” Williams said.

    But in a major victory for the states who challenged the law, the court said that the Obama administration cannot coerce states to go along with the Medicaid insurance program for low-income people.

    The financial pressure which the federal government puts on the states in the expansion of Medicaid “is a gun to the head,” Roberts wrote.

    “A State that opts out of the Affordable Care Act’s expansion in health care coverage thus stands to lose not merely ‘a relatively small percentage’ of its existing Medicaid funding, but all of it,” Roberts said.

    Congress cannot “penalize States that choose not to participate in that new program by taking away their existing Medicaid funding,” Roberts said.

    The Medicaid provision is projected to add nearly 30 million more people to the insurance program for low-income Americans -- but the court’s decision left states free to opt out of the expansion if they choose.
    The system is not broke. It's fixed.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bicycle Junkie View Post
    Let us say hypothetically there is a Republican sweep in November, and the GOP takes the White House and both houses of Congress by large majorities. All this talk about repealing Obamacare is just that: talk. It's not going to happen. In reality this is not universal healthcare or single payer healthcare. It is legislation written for and by insurance companies and the healthcare industry. Any attempt to repeal the mandate will be met by a massive lobbying effort from health insurance companies, and the Republicans will cave to the money-men, which is what Republicans and most other politicians always do.
    Correction:

    It is legislation written to DESTROY private insurance companies in this country, either by driving them all into bankruptcy or nationalizing them, with the END RESULT of having a totally government-run, government-controlled, government-RATIONED, healthcare system---and I have yet to find ANYONE connected with the "healthcare industry" who does not think it is an unmitigated DISASTER.
    The only "change" I CAN believe in: I Corinthians 15: 51-52!


    WAKE ME WHEN IT'S OVER....

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Be Well View Post
    I just saw this comment on Freep. If the poster verifies it or his source, I'll add to the thread.
    John Robert's changed his vote at the last minute under duress.

    The reason he changed his vote at the 11th hour was a form of soft extortion.

    Ruth Bader Ginsberg threatened to announce her retirement at the end of this term and give Obama the chance to appoint a new Justice in her place if Obama Care was overturned.

    If Roberts changed his vote and not strike down ObamaCare she agreed not to retire until the next Presidential term.

    Under the circumstances he did his best to come up with the best possible compromise with Ginsberg - one that put the future of ObamaCare directly in the hands of voters in this next election. The fate of Obama Care is now firmly in the hands of the electorate and 2012 will be a referendum on Obama Care.


    Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I got the impression his change was a "last-minute" change, and he came up with a totally unexpected statement when he came out with the "it's a TAX" argument.

    Every lawyer I hear on radio talking about it says it is crazy---legal, but crazy, given the earlier arguments before the Court and the way the Justices even laughed at the Obama representatives for wanting to have it both ways---to both say it WAS a tax and thus wasn't subject to the commerce clause, but it WASN'T a tax when it suited their whims politically.

    So it seems to me like Roberts said, "Oh, you LIKE to call it a TAX??? Well then, heeeeeeeer's Johnny!"
    The only "change" I CAN believe in: I Corinthians 15: 51-52!


    WAKE ME WHEN IT'S OVER....

  18. #58
    The tax issue is very disturbing - but he may have limited it to this one instance and not made a broad pronouncement for future events. Of course, there's no telling who will be on a future court and which way it will lean. But here's a relevant paragraph from the opinion:

    We have already explained that the shared responsibility payment’s practical characteristics pass muster as a tax under our narrowest interpretations of the taxing power. Supra, at 35–36. Because the tax at hand is within even those strict limits, we need not here decide the precise point at which an exaction becomes so punitive that the taxing power does not authorize it. It remains true, however, that the “‘power to tax is not the power to destroy while this Court sits.’”

    This leaves the door open to challenge future taxes, and there is no precedent that this case automatically sets, although the argument against it just got a lot harder.

    I'm leaning towards the coercion argument and that he was grasping at straws to pass this and was determined to do so without expanding the commerce clause. But if he just expanded Congress' power to tax, he basically did damage that way instead.

    As far as Obamacare in general, this case only rules on 2 provisions of the Act. It would have been great if they overturned the entire act after finding the mandate unconstitutional using non-severability, which was an added step , but just because that didn't happen, doesn't mean that further lawsuits on other issues are foreclosed because this case does not rule on any other aspect of the law itself. He said as much in the opinion:

    The Act’s 10 titles stretch over 900 pages and contain hundreds of provisions. This case concerns constitutional challenges to two key provisions, commonly referred to as the individual mandate and the Medicaid expansion.


    HD

  19. #59
    All that being said, here are two more blog posts which agree with the OP. Neither addresses the expansion of the taxation clause though.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ional-law.html
    (fair use applies)

    Is the Supreme Court’s Health-Care Ruling a Turning Point in Constitutional Law?
    by Randy Barnett | June 28, 2012 4:31 PM EDT

    This is a bittersweet day for our Constitution and the system of federalism it established. First the sweet: today the Supreme Court reaffirmed that Article I of the Constitution does provide limits on the powers of Congress that are enforceable in the courts.

    The national furor over the constitutionality of the individual insurance mandate may signal a turning point in constitutional law—one driven not by the courts but by the people themselves.

    In his majority opinion, Chief Justice John Roberts accepted all of our arguments about why the individual insurance mandate exceeded the Commerce Clause: “The individual mandate cannot be upheld as an exercise of Congress’s power under the Commerce Clause,” he wrote. “That Clause authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce, not to order individuals to engage in it.”

    The majority also accepted our argument about the Necessary and Proper Clause. “Even if the individual mandate is ‘necessary’ to the Act’s insurance reforms,” it wrote, “such an expansion of federal power is not a ‘proper’ means for making those reforms effective.”

    Finally, for the first time since the New Deal, the Supreme Court invalidated a law because it improperly coerced the states, and thereby exceeded Congress’s spending power.

    Now the bitter part: the court rewrote the “penalty” enforcing the mandate to be a “tax” and upheld it. The good news here is that, while Congress can use its tax powers to incentivize conduct, it will be limited to monetary incentives. Had its Commerce Clause claim been upheld, in the future it could have punished noncompliance with congressional purchase mandates with any penalty—up to and including imprisonment.

    The bitter part of this decision will now be addressed by the American people at the polls, where they can reject the imposition of this new judicially created “tax.” Indeed, the next president can even waive its collection!

    From a constitutional perspective, however, we have not only dodged a big bullet; the national furor over the constitutionality of the individual insurance mandate may signal a turning point in constitutional law—one driven not by the courts but by the people themselves. We have seen such turning points before.

    In the depths of the Great Depression, political progressives insisted that only unprecedented exercises of federal power could handle the problem. A majority of the public accepted this argument by sweeping Democrats to power and keeping them there. But standing in the progressives’ way was Article I of the Constitution, which contains Congress’s enumerated powers. These powers permitted the regulation of commerce “among,” but not within, “the several states.” When Congress sought to reach inside a state to regulate intrastate commerce, the Supreme Court initially resisted. Then, in 1937, in a 5–4 decision, the Justices began to relent. In 1942 the court, now dominated by eight Roosevelt appointees, allowed Congress to regulate any intrastate activity that, in the aggregate, substantially “affected” interstate commerce. By this approach, the court greatly expanded the powers of Congress.

    From then until today, most law professors have taught that the power of Congress to regulate the “national economy” is limited only by congressional restraint, which means that the power is unlimited. When, in 1995, the Rehnquist Court held that Congress could only regulate intrastate activity that was “economic” in nature, the legal intelligentsia threw a fit about “conservative judicial activism.” Until today, these same experts have maintained that this was the only limitation on congressional power, which is why they and the administration were so confident of victory. Since the Affordable Care Act “regulates” economic activity, it must be constitutional.

    Today, the Supreme Court definitively rejected this position by holding that mandating economic activity is not the same as regulating it, and that some means Congress chooses to regulate commerce can be improper. Today the court reaffirmed the traditional view that there must be a judicially-enforceable limit on the powers of Congress. From now on, Congress will need to take the limits of its own power seriously, because it can be assured that the court will be looking over its shoulder.

    The election in November will now be about whether to replace Obamacare with market-based, consumer-driven health-care reforms that actually improve our health-care system, but it will also be about the Constitution. Voters can elect more “constitutional conservatives” to Congress who will take the message of today’s ruling to heart: their powers are limited by Article I of the Constitution. Voters must also insist that the next president fill vacancies on the Supreme Court with “constitutional conservative” justices who have the intestinal fortitude to withstand the intense political pressure that was brought to bear on Chief Justice Roberts after oral argument, beginning with statements by President Obama.

    Whatever happens at the polls, however, by affirming that the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause of the Constitution have judicially enforceable limits, today’s decision will be a landmark of constitutional law.

    http://lite.washingtonexaminer.com/?p=5786
    (fair use applies)

    UPDATED: Roberts is not the goat in today’s Supreme Court decision
    Mark Tapscott
    June 28, 2012 18:30

    OK, it’s hard to admit but my initial reaction to this morning’s Obamacare decision by the Supreme Court – a snide tweet branding Chief Justice John Roberts as another “gift” from President George W. Bush like the Medicare Prescription Drug benefit program – was embarrassingly hasty.

    After reading and stewing about it all day, I’ve concluded that what Roberts has done is fundamentally shift the constitutional debate away from the liberal assumption since the Woodrow Wilson era that an Imperial Presidency and supine Congress can pretty much do as they please so long as it’s covered by at least one of those fig leaves known as the General Welfare, Necessary and Proper or Commerce clauses of the Constitution.

    The new assumption is, thanks to Roberts, that at least two of those clauses in fact cannot simply be dragooned into the service of whatever a passing majority in Congress wants to do. And having shifted the meaning of those two clauses, courts will likely now have to view the other clause differently as well.

    In other words, the Constitution means something today that it didn’t yesterday, at least in terms of constitutional precedent. It’s not a grand rout of liberalism from the field of battle, but the correlation of constitutional forces has now shifted under their feet in such a way that they must go over to the defensive on ground not of their choosing.

    Further, the holding that Obamacare passes constitutional muster if it is understood as a tax may be an even more significant victory for conservatives. To understand why, which of these two words sounds more positive? “Benefit” or “tax”? Who is more likely to prevail – the advocate offering a positive benefit without having to explain in any detail how it will be funded, or the advocate who right out front says your taxes have to go up but, trust me, you’re going to love this new benefit?

    Roberts has forced the entitlement state to drop its pretense that government entitlements are intrinsically beneficial and concede the brutal reality that they are in fact the application of force to take from some to give to others. As a practical matter, taxes cannot represent an unlimited power. That’s a genuinely new deal for welfare state advocates. and one that is not likely to adduce to their future success.

    Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Roberts forces what is a profound assault on the nation’s constitutional framework hiding behind the false flag of humanitarianism out of the courts and tosses it into the political arena where the general sense of the community can resolve the outstanding issue.

    As long as there are congressional elections every two years and presidential elections every four years, the American system will continue to give advocates of whatever stripe – you know, those “factions” Publius so feared – realistic hopes of eventually prevailing. When political questions are decided by a mere five black-robed judges, it can take generations – or a civil war – to reverse the damage (See Dred Scott, Plessy v Ferguson, NLRB v Jones & Laughlin Steel, Wickard v Filburne, etc.).

    On balance, I believe the decision takes a giant step toward restoring the judicial efficacy of constitutionally limited government and drags New Deal liberals and progressives out from behind their pretense of being compassionate and virtuous. That said, it will still take some time for enough cases to work their way through the court system to allow the full fruit of the decision to be harvested.

    And one more thought: During our civil war, battles that appeared lost on the first day were often won on the second or third day (Shiloh, Gettysburg). Those who see today as a loss should take heart because tomorrow the struggle will be on new and more promising ground.

    Others have made this case far effectively and eloquently earlier today than I have here. See especially George Will, Larry Solum and Ann Althouse. But, having inadvisedly rushed to judgement earlier today, I wanted to make clear that upon further reflection the thing appears to me in a quite different light.

    UPDATE: And let’s not forget the 7-2 part of the decision

    The individual mandate understandably has received most of the attention today in the analyses of the Obamacare decision, but Timothy Dalrymple makes a couple of crucially important points in his post on five possible reasons to see a silver lining, beginning with the significance of the court’s rejection of the law’s threat to punish severely states that refuse to go along.

    Specifically, the Court has likely strengthened the hand of the states to counterpoise federal power: “The administration’s claim that it could remove all medicaid funding for the states that refused to expand medicaid in the way the administration wants was rejected. The administration can condition new, additional funding on states’ cooperation, but not the preexisting funding. This is a big difference. It will be much easier for states to opt out of the medicaid expansion.”

    And putting Obamacare under the taxing power of Congress may make repeal “easier to overturn by several orders of magnitude. The ordinary process, of course, requires 60 votes to overcome a filibuster in the Senate. But when it concerns budgetary matters, including taxes (like the Bush tax cuts), 51 votes are sufficient to put the law on hold for 10 years.”

    That means, according to Dalrymple, “51 Republicans will be capable now of overturning [Obamacare] at least for 10 years (at which point it could be reviewed again). Fifty-one Republicans could have attempted this in any case, but now they can do so with much greater plausibility because this is a matter of taxing and spending and not regulation of commerce.”

    You can Dalrymple’s entire post here.

    3. The importance of the ruling on states and Medicaid should not be lost in all of this. The administration’s claim that it could remove all medicaid funding for the states that refused to expand medicaid in the way the administration wants was rejected. The administration can condition new, additional funding on states’ cooperation, but not the preexisting funding. This is a big difference. It will be much easier for states to opt out of the medicaid expansion.

  20. #60
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philoso...acare-decisio/
    (fair use applies)

    Five Possible Silver Linings in the Obamacare Decision
    June 28, 2012 By Timothy Dalrymple

    I have not been as overwhelmed with grief at the Supreme Court’s decision on the Affordable Care Act as some of my fellow conservatives. I was wondering whether I was just being naive, but since I just listened in person to a talk from Paul Clement, who actually argued the case on behalf of the states before the Supreme Court, and his feelings seemed to resonate with my own, I feel a little more confident now to share what might be some of the silver linings in this decision:

    1. I know a lot of conservatives are writing now on how the power of the federal government just expanded dramatically, and they may be right. But I think it’s possible that the long term effect will be rather to narrow — not legally but practically and actually — the sphere of government power. First of all, placing the ACA under the Taxation power instead of the Commerce power places greater limits on how that power can be used and dramatically softens the penalty for non-compliance (you simply pay a tax, you cannot be jailed or otherwise punished for failure to purchase health insurance). Congress cannot compel you to purchase insurance; it can only compel you to pay a non-extreme, non-coercive tax if you wish not to purchase insurance. Second, by laying waste to the Commerce Clause argument and making clear that this sort of thing can only be done through the taxation power, the decision may make it harder to pass these sorts of laws in the first place. You cannot hide in the subterfuge of the Commerce Clause — or, if you try, everyone will say, “No, we know better now, this is and must be a tax.” Roberts’ decision will press new social welfare initiatives out of the commerce clause and into the tax code — and passing a new tax is much more difficult as a political matter than passing a new regulation.

    2. By placing the ACA under the umbrella of the tax power, Roberts may have made the ACA easier to overturn by several orders of magnitude. The ordinary process, of course, requires 60 votes to overcome a filibuster in the Senate. But when it concerns budgetary matters, including taxes (like the Bush tax cuts), 51 votes are sufficient to put the law on hold for 10 years. So, theoretically, 51 Republicans will be capable now of overturning the ACA at least for ten years (at which point it could be reviewed again). Fifty-one Republicans could have attempted this in any case, but now they can do so with much greater plausibility because this is a matter of taxing and spending and not regulation of commerce.

    3. The importance of the ruling on states and Medicaid should not be lost in all of this. The administration’s claim that it could remove all medicaid funding for the states that refused to expand medicaid in the way the administration wants was rejected. The administration can condition new, additional funding on states’ cooperation, but not the preexisting funding. This is a big difference. It will be much easier for states to opt out of the medicaid expansion.

    4. The spin war will be interesting to watch. President Obama and his allies clearly did not want to label the mandate as a tax – he denied it in unequivocal terms to George Stephanopolous. Now they will have no choice. President Obama and Congressional Democrats just became the owners of a considerable tax hike – what one of my colleagues is calling “The most deceptive tax increase in American history.” The Obama campaign will frame it as a tax on “the rich” — since you only pay the tax if you are a taxpayer who is capable of purchasing coverage but chose not to purchase it. But look for Republicans to start referring to the “Obamacare Tax.” This is one way in which this can redound to the benefit of Republicans: everyone from Romney on down can now press his opponent with the question, “Are you for the Obamacare Tax or against it?”

    5. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I think this places the central issue of the election very clearly in front of the voters: Do you believe that the government ought to have more power over your life, or do you think it should have less? The Supreme Court is not going to save us against our own poor electoral decisions, if the people we elect go on to pass foolish taxes. Conservatives cannot rely on the Supreme Court as a backstop. So I think you will see the Tea Party movement revived, less focused on internecine battles and more focused again on the fundamental questions of the role of government.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philoso...ax-inactivity/
    (fair use applies)

    Can Congress Tax Inactivity?
    June 28, 2012 By Timothy Dalrymple

    One of the central questions in the Obamacare ruling is whether Congress has the power to tax inactivity or tax the failure to purchase something. This is the most obvious retort to the cigarettes analogy. Granted, Congress has the power to tax the purchase of a cigarette, but does Congress possess the power to tax you for not purchasing a cigarette?

    Roberts begins to addresses this in the opinion he authored on p. 41. There are three considerations, he says, that address this concern.

    First, the Constitution does not guarantee that individuals can avoid taxes through inactivity. While many taxes are levied when you make a purchase or take an action, the Constitution contemplates a capitation or poll tax or a tax simply for existing. Roberts thinks, then, that there is explicit Constitutional space for taxes of this sort.

    Second, he says, the power to tax is not unlimited. Roberts refers to decisions “invalidating punitive exactions obviously designed to regulate behavior otherwise regarded at the time as beyond federal authority,” or invalidating taxes that are so extreme as to be purely punitive. So the Congress could not, for instance, tax someone for not teaching their children the Gospel, because what we teach our children is beyond the proper sphere of federal authority – and the Congress could not impose a $100,000 tax for not purchasing health insurance since then the amount would be so punitive that the “tax” would no longer be a tax but a compulsion.

    Third, he says, the power of taxation (thus defined) “does not give Congress the same degree of control [as one has under the Commerce Clause] over individual behavior.” Essentially, if the federal government had the power to compel the purchase of health insurance under the Commerce Clause, it could theoretically imprison a person who refuses. If the federal government’s power is only through the tax code, then it can only tax a person who refuses to purchase health insurance. Given that the tax cannot be clearly punitive, the tax will not be extreme, and a person can simply choose to pay the tax rather than take the action the government is seeking to encourage.

    I find the second point persuasive, although I wish that Roberts had set forth the limitations more fully. The taxing power is limited to those who pay taxes, there is an (undefined) limit on how extreme the tax can be, and it cannot reach into areas that are in principle beyond federal authority. Are there other limitations? Testing what is beyond federal power, and testing the limit of how heavy the tax can be, will be a matter for further litigation to explore.

    I personally find the third point persuasive, although I seem to be in the minority amongst conservatives I am hearing and reading. If you are faced with the options of purchasing an item or paying a tax, then you have to comply with those two options at risk of imprisonment. This seems to be the case with any kind of tax, however — which is why I find Roberts persuasive on this point.

    The weak point, it seems to me, is in the first point. Is this an impermissible, direct, unenumerated tax? That you cannot avoid taxation through inactivity is not, it seems to me, the same thing as saying the federal government can tax you for failing to purchase particular products. If you cannot compel people to enter into commerce, why can you tax them for failing to enter into commerce?

    Partisans on both sides should consider how this can play out. While you can use tax breaks to incentivize the purchase of products you want to encourage, can you use tax penalties to penalize those who fail to purchase that product? That is the ruling here. So it would seem that the government can not only use incentives to encourage the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles, but they could penalize those who fail to buy such cars. If Congress’ taxing power extends this far, can you tax a person for getting an abortion? Or for not getting sterilized? The limits are not very clear. It would seem that you could stick a tax on a broad array of human activity and thus gain far-reaching control over the behavior of the citizens.

  21. #61
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    Thanks HD for the articles, especially the second one. The last two paragraphs state the points I've been trying to make:

    The weak point, it seems to me, is in the first point. Is this an impermissible, direct, unenumerated tax? That you cannot avoid taxation through inactivity is not, it seems to me, the same thing as saying the federal government can tax you for failing to purchase particular products. If you cannot compel people to enter into commerce, why can you tax them for failing to enter into commerce?

    Partisans on both sides should consider how this can play out. While you can use tax breaks to incentivize the purchase of products you want to encourage, can you use tax penalties to penalize those who fail to purchase that product? That is the ruling here. So it would seem that the government can not only use incentives to encourage the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles, but they could penalize those who fail to buy such cars. If Congress’ taxing power extends this far, can you tax a person for getting an abortion? Or for not getting sterilized? The limits are not very clear. It would seem that you could stick a tax on a broad array of human activity and thus gain far-reaching control over the behavior of the citizens.
    There is such a illogical, contradictory argument at the base of the decision, it leaves me bewildered. I can totally understand why so many stories about politics, extortion, blackmail, etc. are beginning to surface - this sh!t just don't make sense. In the end, however, the Court did nothing to protect the liberties of the people, but rather reached to find new ways for the government to control the actions & behavior of each of us.

  22. #62
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    So Roberts has hamstrung Congress. Maybe that's correct. All I know is that I now have another tax to pay that will in no way benefit my medical situation. No cure is available for me and I am a retired person. Dig the hole ... I'm already dead.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dredge View Post
    Roberts was paid million from TARP funds and into an acount at the Vatican Bank.The whistler blower also named others, some generals,some from the media and others in the governmnet. Just wait till all the others earn their bribe money
    I bet the Jesuits and the Masons were in on it too... [/sarc]
    If at first you don't secede, try, try again!

  24. #64
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    I have to get the hell out of this God-forsaken country.....

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by changed View Post
    So we just got hosed and we are supposed to believe it was a good thing?
    "hosed"?....no......no, no,no. we had a need, and the govt will take care of us, this is a good thing.Its a victory for the people!!! Up with the people! Up with Hope! Down with dope! Yes, we can!!! Change you can believe in!

    don't stop thinking about tommorrow, dont stop, it'll soon be here!!!......



    this is so fricking beautiful man...........hope, change. needs.

  26. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by SurfaceTension View Post
    There is such a illogical, contradictory argument at the base of the decision, it leaves me bewildered. I can totally understand why so many stories about politics, extortion, blackmail, etc. are beginning to surface - this sh!t just don't make sense. In the end, however, the Court did nothing to protect the liberties of the people, but rather reached to find new ways for the government to control the actions & behavior of each of us.
    Surface Tension,

    I am leaning in the same direction. I am very disturbed about the possibility of an expansion of taxing powers after this decision. I've read the opinion a few times to see if I'm missing something that limits it to just this decision. In the meantime, I read this opinion piece from a former law clerk to Justice Roberts and it did bring some comfort so I'll repost it here for you too.

    When I heard the news yesterday that obamacare was upheld, I was sick to my stomach. Literally. Then I actually read the opinion and felt a little better that at least the commerce clause wasn't expanded and then relaxed when I started to think Roberts did a great run-around Obama. But after really thinking about the tax issues, I started to wonder again about what the heck just happened. If this blog piece is correct, I'll find some comfort again.

    As for why I'm not as worried about the act itself at this point - 1) the Supreme Court only ruled on these 2 provisions, out of a 900 page act. There's plenty of litigation that's still to come as more and more provisions are put into effect imho. 2) I think it will ultimately be repealed and that this will help get O and the liberal democrats in the Congress who are up for reelection defeated in their elections. So I was really more worried about the S. Ct's powers and precedent they may have set and that's been where I've been concentrating my attention.



    http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/28/jo...sing-decision/
    (fair use applies)

    What’s behind Roberts’ surprising decision?
    By Joshua Hawley
    8:57 PM 06/28/2012


    Say this for the lead opinion in the health care case the Supreme Court handed down Thursday: nobody saw that coming. Chief Justice Roberts joins with the court’s more liberal wing to uphold the Affordable Care Act … as a tax? The result is, to put it mildly, counterintuitive. Scribes have been busily dissecting the chief justice’s doctrinal analysis from the instant the opinion went viral, but here’s a different thought: doctrine may not be the key to this judgment. As Leo Strauss once made a point of telling his students, a text can be read in many different ways, and will mean different things depending on the lens with which one reads it. The text the chief justice published on Thursday may or may not make good sense read as constitutional doctrine. But read it as constitutional politics and things get more interesting.

    Not politics in the way the Washington punditry means, of course. Roberts’ opinion has nothing to do with helping or hurting President Obama’s re-election chances this fall. The truth is, Supreme Court justices are rarely interested in that sort of thing. They see themselves as above partisan allegiances and the grand questions of law they decide as more important than run-of-the-mill partisan disputes.

    No, I mean politics in the constitutional sense, concerning the Supreme Court’s role in the Constitution’s structure. The danger this case held for the court from the beginning was the possibility — indeed, high likelihood — that it would draw the institution into an acute confrontation with the executive branch in the middle of an election year, and at the same time force the justices into the thick of a policy debate where they have no genuine expertise. The chief justice’s opinion can be fruitfully read as a sort of maneuver, an effort to avoid these evils while simultaneously blocking the federal government’s attempted power grab.

    Consider: Roberts begins with the Commerce Clause question, where the Obama administration placed nearly all the weight of its argument. According to the administration, the Commerce Clause permits Congress to regulate any behavior (or non-behavior) that has some incidental effect on commerce. Roberts rejects that contention root and branch. Indeed, for the first time in the Supreme Court’s modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence, he announces a clear and decisive limit to what the federal government may do with its commerce authority: it may regulate only actual economic activity, and then only if the activity has a substantial effect on interstate commerce. It may not regulate a person’s choice not to enter the stream of commerce in the first place.

    Had this been the sum and substance of the opinion, liberals would have bewailed it as the constitutional apocalypse they feared. But of course it is not the end; Roberts goes on to the administration’s secondary argument. Yet by placing the Commerce Clause discussion where he does, by holding unequivocally that the individual mandate cannot survive on commerce grounds, Roberts makes the Commerce Clause holding necessary to the final judgment. That means the limits on the commerce authority he announced (and with which the four dissenting justices agree) will control in future cases.

    This is a significant, even major, development, but one that is largely concealed by the opinion’s ultimate judgment. Yet even that judgment turns out to be rather less a victory for the government than it first seems.

    The key move in Roberts’ opinion is his conclusion that the individual mandate is actually a sort of tax, and therefore constitutional by virtue of Congress’ unquestioned power to tax. That allows the mandate to stand, yes — but effectively makes the mandate sui generis, and thereby denies the government a new source of regulatory power.

    This is why: Roberts does not say that the government may now regulate anything it likes by calling the regulation a tax. He says this mandate can be read as a tax in these circumstances — that is, in light of the fact that it would be unconstitutional on any other ground and the court is supposed to avoid finding statutes unconstitutional if it can — and on these grounds: because it is administered by the IRS through the tax code and operates in many respects like a normal tax. Only if future regulatory schemes can meet all these criteria would they be valid under the taxing power. Yet Roberts does not give a single example of any such scheme — and we know for a fact, because they have told us repeatedly, that members of Congress would never have voted for this regulation if they had believed it was a tax.

    Making the mandate a tax has at least one other effect. It makes repeal easier. Now that the mandate has been deemed taxation, it can likely be jettisoned through use of the reconciliation process — meaning the Senate will need to muster only a bare majority for repeal, not 60 votes.

    By converting the mandate to a tax, then, Roberts limits the ability of the government to do the same sort of thing in the future and underlines the political unpopularity of the law, all while allowing the law to stand. And because it does stand, the court is spared a nasty turn at center stage in the November elections.

    Whether the chief justice’s stratagem actually works is a different question. Suffice it to say, I have my doubts. The text and structure of the law seem overwhelmingly to indicate that the mandate is a legal requirement — namely, to buy insurance — enforced with a fine. The mandate does not qualify as a tax under the Supreme Court’s settled rules for identifying taxes, and both the text of the law and those who wrote it said it was not.

    But then, Roberts’ aim may be less to apply tax doctrine than to shift the law’s fate from the court to the voters. At the beginning of his opinion, the chief justice pointedly notes that the court “do[es] not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation’s elected leaders.” He repeats this sentiment at the opinion’s close, but with a subtle variation. “[T]he Court does not express any opinion on the wisdom of the Affordable Care Act,” he writes, for “[u]nder the Constitution, that judgment is reserved to the people.” Could it be that the chief justice is asking the people to render a verdict on the leaders who wrote the law in the first place? In all events, they should take him up on it.

    Joshua Hawley is a former law clerk to Chief Justice Roberts and an associate professor of law at the University of Missouri.

  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliobas Disciple View Post
    Surface Tension,






    http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/28/jo...sing-decision/
    (fair use applies)

    What’s behind Roberts’ surprising decision?
    By Joshua Hawley
    8:57 PM 06/28/2012
    Could it be that the chief justice is asking the people to render a verdict on the leaders who wrote the law in the first place? In all events, they should take him up on it.

    Joshua Hawley is a former law clerk to Chief Justice Roberts and an associate professor of law at the University of Missouri.
    I liked the whole article but I wanted to leave what I hope the people will listen to. We are the difference, not DC.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Countrymouse View Post
    John Robert's changed his vote at the last minute under duress.

    The reason he changed his vote at the 11th hour was a form of soft extortion.

    Ruth Bader Ginsberg threatened to announce her retirement at the end of this term and give Obama the chance to appoint a new Justice in her place if Obama Care was overturned.

    If Roberts changed his vote and not strike down ObamaCare she agreed not to retire until the next Presidential term.

    Under the circumstances he did his best to come up with the best possible compromise with Ginsberg - one that put the future of ObamaCare directly in the hands of voters in this next election. The fate of Obama Care is now firmly in the hands of the electorate and 2012 will be a referendum on Obama Care.


    Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I got the impression his change was a "last-minute" change, and he came up with a totally unexpected statement when he came out with the "it's a TAX" argument.

    Every lawyer I hear on radio talking about it says it is crazy---legal, but crazy, given the earlier arguments before the Court and the way the Justices even laughed at the Obama representatives for wanting to have it both ways---to both say it WAS a tax and thus wasn't subject to the commerce clause, but it WASN'T a tax when it suited their whims politically.

    So it seems to me like Roberts said, "Oh, you LIKE to call it a TAX??? Well then, heeeeeeeer's Johnny!"
    This isn't directed at you Countrymouse, but I'm not buying this theory. Let Ginsberg retire. There is no way Obama could appoint someone more unamerican and ditzy than her.
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  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas Parker View Post
    I bet the Jesuits and the Masons were in on it too... [/sarc]
    http://www.dailypaul.com/154751/slus...-legatus-split


    Vatican Bank, Obama, Clinton, Roberts? Legatus split!
    Submitted by ACinMA on Wed, 01/19/2011 - 20:22
    in Politics & Law
    What do you think?

    Slush fund of top politicians found at Vatican Bank, Obama, Clinton, Roberts? Legatus split!

    Slush fund accounts of major US politicians identified and seized at Vatican Bank (Rome). Connection established with Daniel Dal Bosco RICO indictment, which cites Giancarlo Bruno, Silvio Berlusconi & Ban Ki Moon. On Wednesday 5th January 2011, it emerged that US establishment-related slush fund accounts had been located in, and seized from, the Vatican Bank in Rome.

    The source of funds for these accounts in almost every instance was found to be the US Treasury. Beneficiaries of the covert Vatican accounts include Barack Obama, Michelle Obama and each of the Obama children, Michelle Obama’s mother, all the Bushes and the Clintons, including Chelsea Clinton, Joe Biden, Timothy Geithner, Janet Napolitano, several US Senators, including Mitch McConnell, several US Congressmen including John Boehner, several US Military Chiefs of Staff, the US Provost Marshal, the US Judge Advocate General, the US Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Roberts, several US Judges, the Pope, and several cardinals. Big money was found in each of the accounts.
    Last edited by Dredge; 06-29-2012 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Jonas Parker is ignorant

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by changed View Post
    This isn't directed at you Countrymouse, but I'm not buying this theory. Let Ginsberg retire. There is no way Obama could appoint someone more unamerican and ditzy than her.
    Yer kidding, right?
    Barry the Post Turtle can find HUNDRED of foolks who qualify as worse than Ginsburg.

  31. #71

    6 Amerika In Denial

    Roberts is the Manchurian Justice ... Had the votes to do away with ALL of Obama Care ... No need for the Quisling spin you are getting from Faux & “Conservative” News ... The Kraut ... hammer ...worked for the Peanut Farmer ... George Will ... LOL …Yeah leave it to a an election ... GOP needs a trifecta in Nov ... with Willard at head of ticket ... Amerika be sure all you need is 51 Senate votes ... not sure about that

    IMHO ... Smart of Axelrod Inc. To have The Manchurian Justice to change Mandate into a Tax funded one like Romney Care ... yeah attack Obama on what you did in Mass ... LOL ... Create mistrust of Romney in enough voters ... Not many needed since Willard is sooo weak of a canidate

  32. #72
    roberts was sending a message

    . . . the constitution is over
    Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than a peaky raven?

  33. #73
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    I don't see how handing the election to Romney is some kind of benefit.

    Romney is the same as we now have, I don't trust him at all.

    Lose lose.
    Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can.
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  34. #74

    6 Very Good Amerikan

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Girl View Post
    I don't see how handing the election to Romney is some kind of benefit.

    Romney is the same as we now have, I don't trust him at all.

    Lose lose.
    Now you know why yet again the GOP PICK was chosen by the opposition ... Keep harping on Palin ... Now if she was such a weak candidate why did the went out to try to destroy her while treating Willard with Mitts ...

    Now having said that only thing left is to stop Obama care is to elect Mitts, enlarge House conservative Majorities and to retake Senate with again Conservative GOP candidates

    As for Hatch a lot are bashing him ... You need him to win because he has the seniority to head Senate Buget finance committe ... That is why Palin supported him

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dredge View Post
    Roberts was paid million from TARP funds and into an acount at the Vatican Bank.The whistler blower also named others, some generals,some from the media and others in the governmnet. Just wait till all the others earn their bribe money
    *Please supply a reference link to this premise....
    "We Have Done With Hope and Honor, We are lost to Love and Truth.
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  36. #76

    6 Please

    Quote Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman View Post
    *Please supply a reference link to this premise....

    He the Manchurian Justice ... No need to pay him off to make him swith his vote.


    FYI: The Catholic Church is against Obama Care ... Trust me ... The Bishop who never makes serious political waves made a major statement against Obama care ... this is being done on a National scale as well by the Catholic Church as Obama Care is violating the Freedom of Religion

    Good Lord we have enough problems dealing with the soon coming Islamic Hordes sweeping the Western world ... to restart the Reformation Wars of 15-16 Centuries

  37. #77
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    Thanks again HD....I see your point, and hope you're correct, but I keep tripping over the same paragraph you highlighted:
    This is why: Roberts does not say that the government may now regulate anything it likes by calling the regulation a tax. He says this mandate can be read as a tax in these circumstances — that is, in light of the fact that it would be unconstitutional on any other ground and the court is supposed to avoid finding statutes unconstitutional if it can — and on these grounds: because it is administered by the IRS through the tax code and operates in many respects like a normal tax. Only if future regulatory schemes can meet all these criteria would they be valid under the taxing power. Yet Roberts does not give a single example of any such scheme — and we know for a fact, because they have told us repeatedly, that members of Congress would never have voted for this regulation if they had believed it was a tax.
    Roberts just gave precedent to twist & contort the law by any means necessary to deem it Constitutional. Worse yet, although the decision didn't clarify where the boundary is for taxing powers, he just extended it into the realm of taxing deliberate innaction - a tax on not purchasing something.

    Perhaps I'm too thick-headed, but to me the article by Mr. Hawley is just more spin. (Geeze I hope I'm wrong.)

  38. #78

    6 No You Are NOT Amerikan

    Quote Originally Posted by SurfaceTension View Post
    Thanks again HD....I see your point, and hope you're correct, but I keep tripping over the same paragraph you highlighted:


    Roberts just gave precedent to twist & contort the law by any means necessary to deem it Constitutional. Worse yet, although the decision didn't clarify where the boundary is for taxing powers, he just extended it into the realm of taxing deliberate innaction - a tax on not purchasing something.

    Perhaps I'm too thick-headed, but to me the article by Mr. Hawley is just more spin. (Geeze I hope I'm wrong.)

    Just spin from Beltway boys & Quislings

  39. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by SurfaceTension View Post
    Thanks again HD....I see your point, and hope you're correct, but I keep tripping over the same paragraph you highlighted:


    Roberts just gave precedent to twist & contort the law by any means necessary to deem it Constitutional. Worse yet, although the decision didn't clarify where the boundary is for taxing powers, he just extended it into the realm of taxing deliberate innaction - a tax on not purchasing something.

    Perhaps I'm too thick-headed, but to me the article by Mr. Hawley is just more spin. (Geeze I hope I'm wrong.)
    I don't think you are too thick-headed, I share your concerns. Here are 3 more blogs I found that discuss this - the 1st two agree with you completely, the 3rd one tries to give an explanation as to why this taxation of anything won't happen in the future. I'm not so convinced and not so reassured. I'm guessing neither will you be.

    http://townhall.com/columnists/nealb...ion/page/full/
    (fair use applies)

    The True Impact of the Obamacare Decision
    Neal Boortz
    June 29, 2012

    Do Americans – do you -- really understand the gravity of what happened in the Supreme Court yesterday? Do you have any idea at all how the power of the Imperial Federal Government of the United States has been exponentially increased?

    Answer? No, you probably don’t. You really can’t be faulted for that, I guess. After all, our wonderful government school system was designed to educate you, but only to the point that you don’t become a threat to your political rulers. The American people are a product of those schools, and the American people are, by and large, acting in the manner proscribed by those who “educated” them.

    I spent the better part of yesterday listening to various pundits and reading blogs and columns about the ObamaCare decision. I think a lot of people are missing something here; missing something very important. The Court’s ruling on ObamaCare grants the Congress of the United States the power to command virtually any action – any action that would not in and of itself constitute a crime – of any individual in this country, and to demand compliance with that command or be penalized. The federal government can now regulate virtually any human activity in which you wish to engage, and to regulate whether or not you will be allowed to refuse to participate in that activity, so long as a penalty is attached to your noncompliance.

    Perhaps I’m not making my point here; so let me try some scenarios:

    Let’s say that you are not a homeowner, but you are wealthy enough to purchase a home if you wished to. Arguably, under today’s ruling the government could force you to purchase that new home. This the government could do in order to promote job creation in the construction industry, and it would be perfectly constitutional so long as a penalty is assessed for your non-compliance. The government would merely say that you are being taxed for your decision not to buy a new home, and our Supreme Court would uphold the law as a bona fide exercise of the government’s taxing power.

    The government wants you to change your profession … move to another state … buy more cotton clothing … purchase an American-made car … own no less than a dozen pair of American-made shoes … limit your stock purchases to only unionized companies … put solar panels on your roof … perhaps even start watching MSNBC for a minimum of one hour every night. All of this the government might well be able to do so long as a penalty is levied for your failure to comply with the government directive. The penalty would, of course, be nothing more than a tax, and the regulatory requirement would merely be the government exercising its taxing power. Well … the watching MSNBC requirement might violate the 8th Amendment. They’ll just have to work around that one.

    Remember when some reporter asked Nancy Pelosi if the individual mandate was constitutional? Her reply? “Are you serious? Are you serious?” Now she can simply say “Taxing authority, bub. Taxing authority.”

    This is a sad day indeed for our Constitution. The Supreme Court has ruled that Obama’s insurance mandate is unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause. It’s perfectly fine, though, since there’s a fine for non-compliance. This column is short – because the message is simple. Sit back now and try to imagine anything the federal government cannot require of you – just so long as there is a penalty if you say “no."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...RQ9V_blog.html
    (fair use applies)

    Broccoli Tyranny lives!
    By Greg Sargent

    A number of people have noted today that the Supreme Court ruling upholding Obamacare placed limits on federal power by ruling that the commerce clause does not give government power to regulate inactivity. How big a deal is this?

    People on the right (see Jay Cost) have argued that this is a big victory for conservative governance. People on the left (see Jonathan Chait) have argued that this casts a shadow over the decision, potentially limiting Congress’s ability to regulate interstate commerce and opening the door to future decisions favoring right -wing economics.

    But a legal scholar I spoke to now dismissed the importance of the ruling on the commerce clause, arguing that it’s largely beside the point, and that the ruling still represents an expansion of federal authority.

    Barry Friedman, a New York University law professor who wrote a brief supporting Obamacare, argued that by affirming the ability to regulate with taxing power, the decision created a precedent for future regulation along these lines.

    “They can’t make you eat broccoli, but they can tax you for not eating it,” Friedman joked, by way of summarizing the meaning of the decision. This is, of course, a reference to what Jonathan Bernstein has called the Broccoli Tyranny argument.

    If Friedman is right, then the upshot is: Broccoli Tyranny lives.

    Friedman pointed to this segment of the decision:

    The court today holds that our Constitution protects us from federal regulation under the Commerce Clause so long as we abstain from the regulated activity. But from its creation, the Constitution has made no such promise with respect to taxes.

    Friedman suggests that this ratifies the power to tax to regulate inactivity. He acknowledged that the justices put a stop to the use of the commerce clause to do this but added: “I don’t see them as withdrawing power. The chief justice validated taxing to do exactly the same thing.”

    Friedman added that the inability to regulate inactivity via the commerce clause isn’t any great loss — since it’s unclear how much of this we would have wanted to do in the future in any case. The more important point, he said, is that the decision upheld the right of the government to regulate via taxation.

    “This is far more devastating to federalism and the balance of power between states and the national government,” he says. “You can now tax pretty much anything.”

    http://townhall.com/columnists/kateh...all_bad/page/2
    (fair use applies)

    The Roberts Opinion: It's Not All Bad
    Kate Hicks
    June 28, 2011

    John Roberts is not a “traitor to his philosophy.” He is not a liberal. He is, above all else, a very strict originalist, and the Chief Justice of a Court that is acutely aware – and wary – of its role in politics. Understand that his opinion, though certainly not ideal for the Right, contains more good news for conservatives in its pages than it does on its face.

    So let’s take a look at his surprising opinion – the controlling opinion, as it’s called, which sets precedent and “say[s] what the law is,” as Marshall said so long ago.

    The Good News

    First: let’s give credit where it’s due. Roberts made it abundantly clear that he’s not a fan of the actual policy. Moreover, he shifted responsibility for this policy back to the American people, and revealed his respect for the separation of powers:

    “Members of this Court are vested with the authority to interpret the law; we possess neither the expertise nor the prerogative to make policy judgments. Those decisions are entrusted to our Nation’s elected leaders, who can be thrown out of office if the people disagree with them. It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices.”

    Unhappy with the ruling though you may be, the wisdom contained in that paragraph alone ought to cheer you. And I promise, there’s more!

    Now then. What hath he wrought?

    “Commerce Clause” is everywhere in the news today, and if you’ll recall, that was considered the basis for both upholding and striking down the mandate. Roberts threw out the government’s argument that it could regulate inactivity because of the “substantial effect” abstention from the market would have on the market as a whole. This, he said, was way too much power:

    “Allowing Congress to justify federal regulation by pointing to the effect of inaction on commerce would bring countless decisions an individual could potentially make within the scope of federal regulation, and—under the Government’s theory—empower Congress to make those decisions for him. […] Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority.”

    Moreover, he created a new precedent in Commerce Clause jurisprudence that limits its scope significantly, by accepting the distinction between activity and inactivity. In so doing, he created a concrete definition of Federal power that will influence the way Congress makes law in the future, and the way the Court interprets future Commerce Clause cases. Here’s the key passage to that effect:

    “People, for reasons of their own, often fail to do things that would be good for them or good for society. Those failures—joined with the similar failures of others—can readily have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Under the Government’s logic, that authorizes Congress to use its commerce power to compel citizens to act as the Government would have them act. […] The Government’s theory would erode those limits [on the Commerce Clause], permitting Congress to reach beyond the natural extent of its authority, ‘everywhere extending the sphere of its activity and drawing all power into its impetuous vortex.’ The Federalist No. 48, at 309 9 (J. Madison). Congress already enjoys vast power to regulate much of what we do. Accepting the Government’s theory would give Congress the same license to regulate what we do not do, fundamentally changing the relation between the citizen and the Federal Government.”

    It’s hard to see at first glance why we should celebrate this ruling, especially because it was evidently not enough for Roberts to overturn the mandate. But what Roberts did here was establish a defining limit on the Commerce Clause, which had heretofore not really existed. Congress is now restricted in its ability to use this very broad power, in that it cannot compel individuals to participate in the market. Consider, also, the wide array of tools at Congress’ disposal under the Commerce Clause to ensure compliance. Roberts has ruled that Congress can’t criminalize not buying something because of the effect abstention will have on the market. Indeed, that was at issue in this case; the fact that it’s unconstitutional is a win for liberty.

    Furthermore, Roberts narrowed the definition of “substantially effects” to encompass activity that is already occurring, and curtailed Congress’ power to presuppose, and then regulate, activity.

    “The proposition that congress may dictate the conduct of an individual today because of prophesied future activity finds no support in our precedent. We have said that Congress can anticipate the effects on commerce of an economic activity. […] But we have never permitted Congress to anticipate that activity itself in order to regulate individuals not currently engaged in commerce.”

    Now, think back to the time when constitutional challenges to the mandate first began to surface: every legal scholar worth his salt, conservative or liberal, believed the Court would kill the activity/inactivity distinction. Yet that was the major victory the conservatives won in this case, and it’s now legal precedent. The mandate itself lives on, but Congress may never apply the full force of the U.S. government to compel anyone to make a purchase. This, the fight for the Commerce Clause, was the real war. And the right won it. Perhaps the fruit isn’t ripe yet, but it will prove juicy in time.

    So now, to turn to the legal reasoning for why the mandate remains law. In other words…

    The Bad News

    Here’s Roberts: “And it is well established that if a statute has two possible meanings, one of which violates the Constitution, courts should adopt the meaning that does not do so.”

    You may keep your law, he says. But let me redefine it for you.

    In the opinion, Roberts applies a test from an earlier case, Drexel Furniture, to determine whether the “penalty” meets all the requirements of a tax. It’s another long excerpt, but worth reading, as he’s very clear:

    “The same analysis here suggests that the shared responsibility payment may for constitutional purposes be considered a tax, not a penalty: First, for most Americans the amount due will be far less than the price of insurance, and, by statute, it can never be more. It may often be a reasonable financial decision to make the payment rather than purchase insurance… Second, the individual mandate contains no scienter requirement [i.e. it’s not punitive for breaking the law]. Third, the payment is collected solely by the IRS through the normal means of taxation—except that the Service is not allowed to use those means most suggestive of a punitive sanction, such as criminal prosecution.”

    So here’s how it’s going to work from now on: the mandate is now just the “tax on not having healthcare,” which I’m sure will get a snappier name in the coming days, something akin to the “gas tax,” or the “income tax,” which most of us pay. Roberts says as much:

    “[A]ccording to the Government…the mandate can be regarded as establishing a condition—not owning health insurance—that triggers a tax—the required payment to the IRS. Under that theory, the mandate is not a legal command to buy insurance. Rather, it makes going without insurance just another thing the Government taxes, like buying gasoline or earning income. And if the mandate is in effect just a tax hike on certain taxpayers who do not have health insurance, it may be within Congress’s constitutional power to tax.”

    So after he invalidated the Commerce Clause justification, he determined that really, the “penalty” doesn’t force participation in the market; hence, why he didn’t throw out the mandate with the Commerce logic. It’s not really forcing people into the market; after all, it didn’t criminalize not owning insurance. It just puts a tax on it, and Roberts notes that taxes are often used to induce certain behavior:

    “But taxes that seek to influence conduct are nothing new. […] Today, federal and state taxes can compose more than half the retail price of cigarettes, not just to raise money, but to encourage people to quit smoking. […] That Sec5000A seeks to shape decisions about whether to buy health insurance does not mean that it cannot be a valid exercise of the taxing power.”

    Frankly, this doesn’t look like an expansion of the taxing power. Perhaps he’s articulating more clearly the intent behind so-called “sin taxes,” and other behaviorally-motivated taxes, but he’s not handing Congress more power. He’s just explaining a power they already had, and use.

    Remember—he never said it was good policy, and in fact made it clear that he feels otherwise. What he did was invalidate an unconstitutional argument in defense of the policy, thereby banning it from future use, and then uphold a bad, but not unconstitutional statute, because it adhered to a permissible exercise of power. Congress passed a tax, he says, and it’s a bad one, and he doesn’t like it, but that doesn’t make it impermissible.

    So, is this what the right really wanted to hear? Heck no! We like the dissent, where the whole thing goes. But Roberts is dumb like a fox, and it’s worth looking at the effects this ruling will have on the future, both near and far.

    The Upshot

    Over, and over, and over, President Obama assured us that this was not a tax. He was not raising taxes on the middle class (that’s what the Republicans were doing, remember?). Nope, says the CJ: ya raised our taxes. Politically, that’s going to prove troublesome for Obama this fall, and in a much more substantial way than having his “signature legislative accomplishment” overturned altogether.

    For one, Roberts took away Obama’s ability to campaign against the Court. They upheld his law; he can’t do as he did after Citizens United and construe the ACA ruling as a massively political attack on the little guy and his uninsured plight. He has nothing to blame on the Justices. All they did was recharacterize the “penalty” as constitutional under the taxing power. Roberts robbed Obama of a scapegoat, and stuck Obama with an unpopular law in an election year. Ouch.

    Second, Roberts has literally forced Obama to acknowledged that he broke a promise, and raised taxes. And tax increases don’t resonate well with the voters. Now, it’s doubtful Obama will assume responsibility for raising taxes – note that in his speech today, he didn’t acknowledge the Court’s reasoning for the ruling, only that they ruled in his favor. But the GOP has just added a major weapon to its arsenal: want to lower taxes? Then don’t reelect Obama.

    This third observation is one that isn’t immediately eminent, but nonetheless just as important as those prior two, if not more so. Roberts has made it substantially easier to repeal Obamacare, and substantially harder to pass anything like it in the future. As noted above, Americans don’t like taxes. And thanks to the fact that many will opt to pay the tax rather than buy insurance (as that will cost less), the insurance problem in this country hasn’t been solved. The fact that we’ve settled the question of the mandate’s constitutionality means we can turn to the rest of the law, and address the flaws contained therein, and perhaps find a real solution to the healthcare crisis. As for future laws, Democrats lost the ability to hide behind “penalty” language. Roberts saw that the mandate waddled and quacked, and gave it the appropriate name. (He also forbade Congress from actually “mandating” anything, so that name isn’t even correct anymore.) The ACA barely passed the first time; future iterations of this theory are destined to fail, because Congress will have to stand up and say, “We propose to enact a new tax so as to influence your behavior.” If that isn’t the proverbial lead balloon, I don’t know what is.

    So there you have it: it’s really not all bad. It’s not what we wanted, but then – as I suspect Obama will learn in the coming months – we must remember to be careful what we wish for.

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman View Post
    *Please supply a reference link to this premise....

    http://www.dailypaul.com/154751/slus...-legatus-split

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