I have the opportunity to have a highly experienced gun builder build me an AR. Need ideas

[Roscoe's Daddy]

But I've been reading that the heavier bullet weights (75/77 gr) are far better as "zombie stoppers" than the lighter loads. BTW, he also suggested I consider going to a 5.7x28 chambered rifle. He is clearly a supporter of that round. Thoughts, in terms of ammo availability, price and competency?

The kinder choice for your bank account will be 5.56mm Nato. The 75/77 grain rounds are very good for longer range, or SBR's (Short Barreled Rifles- say, 10-11.5 inches). The Hornandy 77 grain 5.56mm TAP is one of the best anti-personnel rounds ever made. The trouble is that it has a penetration problem with intermediate barriers. Think 62-64 grains. If you envision barriers like window glass, sheet metal, wood, etc, then consider that weight but in a Bonded barrier blind type cartridge.

[smith357]

Shake up the thinking. You're a man on his own. Weapons should be multipurpose in a shtf scenario. And I suspect if you ever need to hunt, that .300 will have been left far behind....

[Brutus]

We must agree to disagree a bit on this. If you can keep the actual impact velocity at about 2700, the bullet can often (never always) break at the cannelure. You can get that sort of velocity out of a 16, or even a 14.5 inch barrel. What you do lose of course, is range.

Yes, a 62 out of a shorter barrel will maintain high enough velocity to be devastating on impact, but only at very short ranges. From what I've read based on firsthand accounts dating back to our first days in A'stan and from what ballisticians have ciphered out, 62s out of the M-4 drop below their really effective velocity after only about 60-80 yards.

Unless you're going with premium, non-FMJ bullets, 55 grain is the ticket for a carbine-length AR.

[Dennis Olson]

1) who says I'd always be in Texas if TSHTF?

2) I worked hard on getting that rifle exactly the way I wanted it

3) I would probably never get out of it what I have into it

4) all of life isn't prepping for a SHTF life-and-death battle with zombie hordes. Just because I haven't gone hunting in the past few years doesn't mean that I never will again.

[Roscoe's Daddy]

You mean gas piston?

Yes. The original AR is a Direct Gas Impingement system. Traditional autoloading rifles (like an M1 Garand) frequently use a piston type system. The piston system is a good idea-but ONLY in platform designed to handle the stresses. The AR system was never designed to use that method. It's like wanting to put "pistons" on a jet airplane-Ugh! But what you end up with sooner then later, is a ruined receiver. It doesn't matter who made your rifle.

[Brutus]

1) who says I'd always be in Texas if TSHTF?

2) I worked hard on getting that rifle exactly the way I wanted it

3) I would probably never get out of it what I have into it

4) all of life isn't prepping for a SHTF life-and-death battle with zombie hordes. Just because I haven't gone hunting in the past few years doesn't mean that I never will again.

Hell, hang on to the .300.

Such calibers are useful for disabling vehicles and such at longer ranges.



ETA: (I've got a Ruger in 7mm mag. myself)

[Palmetto]

Lots of good info here. I will chime in with a few personal preferences.

IMHO, anything other than a red dot (Eotech or the like) or any other rail accessory is not necessary. A scope on an AR is like tits on a bull.

I have used them all.

The Eotech allows for quick target acquisition. Otherwise, the irons are just fine.

From what you are talking about, basically a CQB rifle that can reach out to 600 yards in a pinch is just for what the carbine platform is designed. Stay in the 6-8 pound range
(without all the accessories) and you can move and scoot.

If you need a reach out and touch someone weapon there are other options and calibers.

Stick with the 5.56.

Invest in a good rifle, good mags, and buy enough 5.56 NOW.

You will be amazed at the accuracy of the basic platform.

How are you going to carry your mags?

Skip the tac vests (they weigh you down) and go with a good battle belt with harness.

http://www.condoroutdoor.com/211battlebelt.aspx

Again, so you can scoot and shoot.

Condor makes open top as well as closed mag holders.

[Dennis Olson]

With my eyes getting worse, iron sights are no longer an option for me, unfortunately.

[Roscoe's Daddy]

What capacity for the mags?

Mil-spec 30-round is my recommendation. Either "Colt" or "NHMTG" marked on the base plate. If you want something fancier, install the new Magpul follower in them-it's a better mouse trap than the current "green" follower. As popular as the Magpul magazines are, in reality they are not that great of an idea. Their feed lips are too thick given the polymer construction and the AR's dimensions. The mags shouldn't work as good as they do, but they really do-until naturally, they don't.

[American Rage]

Where's the popcorn? This is interesting.

[Housecarl]

Lots of good info here. I will chime in with a few personal preferences.

IMHO, anything other than a red dot (Eotech or the like) or any other rail accessory is not necessary. A scope on an AR is like tits on a bull.

I have used them all.

The Eotech allows for quick target acquisition. Otherwise, the irons are just fine.

From what you are talking about, basically a CQB rifle that can reach out to 600 yards in a pinch is just for what the carbine platform is designed. Stay in the 6-8 pound range
(without all the accessories) and you can move and scoot.

If you need a reach out and touch someone weapon there are other options and calibers.

Stick with the 5.56.

Invest in a good rifle, good mags, and buy enough 5.56 NOW.

You will be amazed at the accuracy of the basic platform.

How are you going to carry your mags?

Skip the tac vests (they weigh you down) and go with a good battle belt with harness.

http://www.condoroutdoor.com/211battlebelt.aspx

Again, so you can scoot and shoot.

Condor makes open top as well as closed mag holders.

Besides the weapon and load bearing gear for the magazines and ammo, consideration should be given to what else should be considered for your "basic" or minimum load out or excluded including water, knife, multi-tool, clothing, food, some kind of optic independent of one on or not on the weapon, body armor (if appropriate or not in your view), communication gear, etc. That can add weight really fast.

[Rastech]

If you are on your own and it's a firefight less than 300 yds away, let alone less than 100 yds away, you have probably already lost.

Look it's bad enough having to call in airstrikes at targets less than 300 yards from you, because what you have in your hand can't reach out far enough to keep you safe.

Are you going to be able to call in airstrikes to save your ass? Doubtful, huh?

We aren't talking about TOYS here in fantasy land situations. Our militaries are handicapped by procurement determined to supply TOYS, and it's getting our people KILLED!

Do you know what the kill to cartridge ratio of 5.56 in Iraq was? Something like 250,000:1!

Do you have the logistics capability to even begin to cope with that ammunition consumption?

Seriously, wake up and smell the ******* coffee! AK is a short range 'trench gun' too. If you intend to put yourself into trench gun efficient ranges, post SHTF, you are condemning yourself and probably yours, to be well and truly ******!

You can not turn a pig's ear into a silk purse, is the bottom line, but you can turn an AR into a decent medium range rifle that will also become a useful hunting tool.

Post SHTF circumstances will seriously revolve around KISS principles. Don't rely on optics (where do you think you are going to be able to get them repaired?), don't get used to them so you have to depend on them at the wrong time, and can't function without them. My eyes are probably a darned sight worse than yours Dennis, but a long sight plane with iron sights on a 24" barreled AR platform, firing something with the effective reach, will put me on target at 600 yds, if I am wearing my glasses.

Sure, I can't shoot anything like better than 1/10th of a minute any more, but I can still probably hit what I am shooting at, out to 1,000 yds.

With iron sights.

Keep it simple, save a butt load of money, and start practicing with what you will eventually be relying upon, so you have maximum familiarity with one long gun and one pistol. In the meantime, hire or turn up at a range with friends that have the platform (AR) with the same barrel length if possible, but with iron sights, provide a butt load of ammunition, and all of you have a good day out hitting small targets, starting at 300 yds, and get yourselves hitting things at 600 yds by the end of the day. Just get on the paper at 600 yds (have big paper targets there or a big sheet of metal), don't worry about group size, work on that with the platform you get (and also work on your prone shooting technique with a .22lr rifle to do it cheap).

I suspect the biggest practical problem you are going to have (and the biggest practical problem most in the 'zombie hordes' are going to have), is an inability to shoot from cover prone.

You need to find out if you can do that, asap, because if you can't do that, then you are into a whole new ballgame, that expensive toys for Christmas simply isn't going to be able to get you out of, and throwing money away on basically useless gear isn't going address it.

Bottom line, if you can't function below 300 yds (and it takes substantial support including extra manpower to be able to do that), then your only option is not to be there, and you have to learn how to achieve that, and have the tools available to keep you well over 300 yds away from problems.

PS. Also, if you have any intention of achieving competence with a rifle (i.e. become a genuine rifleman), you have to become good at reloading. Reloading will teach you more about ballistics than you would ever imagine possible.

Sorry if the above sounds harsh Dennis. But I like you, and I don't want to see you turning 'shopping mode' with your hard won cash, into something that is going to turn into a liability that could give you dangerous over confidence that might get you seriously hurt or dead. If Apple turn out an iRifle - avoid it like the plague (and it strikes me you are hell bent on acquiring as near to an iRifle as you can get).

Also, think on this. It's your first shot that counts, not how many you have in a magazine. If you don't hit what you are aiming at with your first shot, you all too easily don't have the chance of a second shot (and if you miss with the first you all too likely will miss with the rest of the magazine too).

[Dennis Olson]

Hi Rastech. Great info as usual. I need to address some of your points.

First, Iron sights are out for me. Period. My eyes are 20/500 uncorrected. I wear trifocals besides. I have an "AK equivalent" rifle already. I also consider the AKs to be carbines. I consider any range-to-target over about 250 yards to be "sniper range". I am looking specifically for a CQB rifle. I already have equipment that would be usable for sniper ranges. I do not own body armor. As I said before, the stated mission of this weapon is if there is a SHTF scenario and it's necessary to shoot my way out "on the run". The much larger, heavier rifles won't allow that very well, at least not in my physical condition. I'm a fat middle-aged man who can't run. An "emergent" firefight would be at relatively close range. Shooting prone in a moving firefight is not an option, as I'm sure you can appreciate. That's when you want "volume" (rounds) downrange.

Every weapon in my collection has a specific task assigned to it. This one would be no exception.


As an aside, I don't know ANYONE (nor have I ever) who can reliably hit a target at 600 yds with iron sights. Maybe if they spent 300 years in the infantry or have been a life-long competition distance shooter, but that's it.

Reloading is something I have no idea how to do, and have no one to teach me. Because of safety concerns, it's something that I would not want to "learn from a book." I do best when I can ask questions and see first-hand how something is done. (And YouTube ain't it.) Further, to get set up properly for reloading is a multi-thousand-dollar task. I've researched it, at least somewhat. And again, there are as many opinions on the proper setup as there are "swingin' d*cks." Further, proper reloading requires a dedicated bench. Having no "permanent" home, that is simply not possible.

These are the objective realities of MY world. YOUR world is, I'm sure, entirely different.

Thanks for the valuable insight. If I can reach a place in my life where some of it becomes possible, I will implement many of your suggestions.

[Dozdoats]

Milspec ammo for AR types has crimped and lacquered primers - for a reason. Last carbine class I was at had guns repeatedly going down from loose primers in the actions coming from reloads those students were shooting. I pulled whole primers and primer components (cups and anvils) out of lower receivers, fire control parts, barrel extensions, any place a little piece of metal could wander into and jam up the works. Sometimes it took needle nosed pliers to get them out, they were jammed in so tightly.

Reloads too often don't make ARs happy for lots of reasons, and I for sure wouldn't use reloads in critical applications if I had any choice in the matter. Practice and training might be OK, but not for serious.

[rmomaha]

Stay away from DPMS, Rock River and other lower cost stuff. You get what you pay for. Top drawer stuff is LMT, Noveske, Spikes Tactical. LWRC. On those Eotechs, I have seen a lot of people complain of failures, and battery life. Bravo Company USA makes good stuff and I highly recommend them.

[Brutus]

Stay away from DPMS, Rock River and other lower cost stuff. You get what you pay for. Top drawer stuff is LMT, Noveske, Spikes Tactical. LWRC. On those Eotechs, I have seen a lot of people complain of failures, and battery life. Bravo Company USA makes good stuff and I highly recommend them.

As far as EOtech sights are concerned:

Direct from Doc1's son who has two tours with the 82nd Airborne in Iraq under his belt, the EOtech sights were one of the best pieces of equipment they had. He swears by them.

[Thomas Paine]

As I understand it EOtech has lost the SOCCOM contract since L3 bought out the company due to all sorts of bugs and problems. Aimpoints are the way to go is what I got from all the folks I queried when building my rifle including some folks who had previously been EOtech devotees. The best bang for the buck is the Aim Point Pro at about $400.2 MOA dot guts of the military sight with the mount of the lasted sight .3 year battery life if you leave it on. I previously had an early Bushnell holo sight(early EOtech) and I prefer the Aim Point as I found the EO tech reticle busy.

[Thomas Paine]

Dennis another piece of gear you will need and the training to use it will good blow out/trauma/holed operator kit. This for you to tend to the basics immediately at most it should have a chest seal, a couple Israeli combat dressing, at least one tourniquet in the kit and and another where you can get it on your gear with either hand. Some celox blood stopper in either gauze or powder form might be a good idea, it doesn't have a thermal reaction and can be washed out of the wound.Duct tape or the heavy medical tape is good to have and a few safety pins. This in addition to a Boo Boo kit for minor cuts ,scrapes and burns.

[L.A.B.]

As far as EOtech sights are concerned:

Direct from Doc1's son who has two tours with the 82nd Airborne in Iraq under his belt, the EOtech sights were one of the best pieces of equipment they had. He swears by them.

For carbine ranges the early EO-tech's get my vote. Dennis, since your eyesight is a issue with iron sights it is best to couple your optical aid to your platform of choice. Some of the holographic sight systems incorporate a 2 or 4 minute dot surrounded by an outer encompassing 65 minute circle. Whereas the 2 minute dot may be hard to see midway down your platform the 65 minute circle would look something like this (||) superimposed over a 5'6" tall target @ 100 yards.

[L.A.B.]

As I understand it EOtech has lost the SOCCOM contract since L3 bought out the company due to all sorts of bugs and problems. Aimpoints are the way to go is what I got from all the folks I queried when building my rifle including some folks who had previously been EOtech devotees. The best bang for the buck is the Aim Point Pro at about $400.2 MOA dot guts of the military sight with the mount of the lasted sight .3 year battery life if you leave it on. I previously had an early Bushnell holo sight(early EOtech) and I prefer the Aim Point as I found the EO tech reticle busy.

My best friend is having issues with the newest EO-Techs. He is real sorry he left his older model Eo-Tech on his recent sale. Our go-to Orange County vendor-aggressive gun salesman could not remedy the problem though the vendor even after a (long period of time).

Going back to the eyesight issue. If Aimpoint has a 4 or 6 ? minute dot, perhaps that might work for Dennis.

[dvo]

Well...lots of opinions in this thread for sure. Dennis, decide what role you want your AR to fulfill and then have the parts assembled that fulfill that role best for you. Having taken a course on armoring for the AR platform, I am not sure there are really special assembly "tricks" to be used by the assembler. Heck, maybe we were taught the tricks...but just weren't told they were special "tricks".

Have fun with your decisions. Must be 10,000's of different combinations of parts with which to make up a AR-type rifle.

[Brutus]

For carbine ranges the early EO-tech's get my vote. Dennis, since your eyesight is a issue with iron sights it is best to couple your optical aid to your platform of choice. Some of the holographic sight systems incorporate a 2 or 4 minute dot surrounded by an outer encompassing 65 minute circle. Whereas the 2 minute dot may be hard to see midway down your platform the 65 minute circle would look something like this (||) superimposed over a 5'6" tall target @ 100 yards.

My best friend is having issues with the newest EO-Techs. He is real sorry he left his older model Eo-Tech on his recent sale. Our go-to Orange County vendor-aggressive gun salesman could not remedy the problem though the vendor even after a (long period of time).

Going back to the eyesight issue. If Aimpoint has a 4 or 6 ? minute dot, perhaps that might work for Dennis.

Considering Dennis's (and many of the rest of our) eyesight issues, a 4 minute dot might be best, as you mention. That would superimpose 8" on a 200 yard target, which is still effective.

An aside:

LAB (or anyone, really) have you heard anything on the Leupold holographic sights? I was looking at them on Midway the other day and was wondering. I'm figuring if it's Leupold it ought to be a good product simply given their reputation, but that can be an iffy proposition sometimes as we all surely know.

[Dennis Olson]

The post that said the AR is Barbie for guys wasn't kidding...

[Thomas Paine]

Considering Dennis's (and many of the rest of our) eyesight issues, a 4 minute dot might be best, as you mention. That would superimpose 8" on a 200 yard target, which is still effective.

An aside:

LAB (or anyone, really) have you heard anything on the Leupold holographic sights? I was looking at them on Midway the other day and was wondering. I'm figuring if it's Leupold it ought to be a good product simply given their reputation, but that can be an iffy proposition sometimes as we all surely know.

The new Aim Point 2 MOA dots work well I have bad vision requiring glasses and a 2MOA dot works real well.

[Brutus]

The post that said the AR is Barbie for guys wasn't kidding...

LOL!

I've also heard AR's referred to as the "Mr. Potato Head" of rifles, with all the different crap you change out, take away, add on, etc.

[eXe]

The post that said the AR is Barbie for guys wasn't kidding...

lol thats why my wife calls my ARs "Barbie guns" hah

[RB Martin]

This did help me also. Curious though, I see most condemning the "cheaper" gun builds & brands, where does Palmetto Armory figure in? Anyone have experience with them?

[ElevenO]

Good Lord, how did I miss this thread? I must have been in a coma or something.


Oops.