North Dakota voters to decide on eliminating property tax, UPDATE, post #19

[Dennis Olson]

North Dakota voters to decide on eliminating property tax

Published June 12, 2012

| FoxNews.com

Pushing the bounds of the anti-tax movement that erupted with the formation of the Tea Party three years ago, North Dakota voters on Tuesday are set to decide whether to abolish their state's local property taxes.

Polls show the proposed constitutional amendment facing stiff opposition in the state.

But if it did pass, North Dakota would be the first state to eliminate the local taxes. And the vote would immediately trigger a legislative scramble, as governments across the state would have to figure out how to deal with the sudden revenue shortfall.

Under Measure 2, property taxes would be eliminated and the Legislature would be ordered to supply replacement revenue to the local governments that depend on them. The state Tax Department estimated the needed sum would be more than $800 million annually.

A businessman who helped pull the campaign together said he remains hopeful despite the public opinion surveys.

"I am not an optimist unrealistically. I just have listened to too many people say they are supporting us," Robert Hale said. "I hope the people who have been frustrated with what's going on vote that way ... I put the time and effort into it for that reason, and so did everyone else who (backed the measure)."

The proposal gained currency in part because of North Dakota's economic prosperity, fueled by an energy boom that has left the state treasury with surpluses greater than $1 billion. The state has had the nation's lowest unemployment rate, and the measure's supporters say North Dakota government could afford to replace the local revenues.

Legislators predicted if voters endorsed the amendment, Gov. Jack Dalrymple would have to quickly call a special session to deal with the aftermath.

"The more that people understand what this measure is all about, the more they seem to reject it," said Andy Peterson, president of the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce, which opposed the amendment. "We're hearing from folks who think their property taxes are too high, but they agree this is not the answer."

The amendment was put on the ballot by a citizens' group called Empower the Taxpayer, led by Hale and Charlene Nelson, a Casselton activist. More than 27,000 North Dakota voters signed petitions demanding the vote.

A decade ago, Nelson led a successful effort to repeal changes in North Dakota's bank privacy laws, approved by the 2001 Legislature, which allowed banks to sell their customers' information without obtaining written permission.

Hale has fought what he says is the city of Minot's illegal spending of taxpayers' money to subsidize private businesses, which he said often do not keep job-creation promises they make in exchange for the aid.

However, the amendment raised concerns among a diverse coalition of organizations, from North Dakota's Chamber of Commerce to the state Farmers Union and groups representing local governments, public employees and school teachers.

They organized a vocal, well-financed campaign, arguing the measure would transfer budget power from local governments to the Legislature, and leave questions about which local projects lawmakers would have to pay for.

The measure's supporters castigated property taxes as a way to extend permanent government control over a person's home, even after the mortgage had been paid.

Attempts in the Legislature to reform property taxes have been futile, and doing away with them entirely was a better solution, they argued.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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[Bolt]

I hope it passes. People should not have to pay an annual tax just to own property. Your home should be the one thing the gov't can't take from you. Well, that, and a few other things...

[Troke]

Well, I been in a State where the local taxes did not support the school system like it does in ND, apparently. Not good. All the folks do then is try any scheme they can come up with to bleed the State for their system. And one scheme is to always elect the same guy so he gets the seniority to loot the Treasury for their area.

Not good. Local expenditures supported by local taxes and the citizens will be real interested where their money goes. Local expenditures supported by revenue from some other place and the citizens will only be interested in is maximizing local expenditures. We got an example of that at the Federal level. It does not seem to work well.

[Tristan]

Well, the current system of bleeding the property owners isn't working too well, either. You're taxed on a notional value which you may or may not benefit from some time in the future; truely, you take a 30 year mortgage so that you can then 'rent' the property from the state.


I wish them well in ND.

[Dennis Olson]

Here's what Oregon did many years ago:

The cost per student was calculated on a state-wide average. Then, property taxes specific to each county were reallocated state-wide to the school fund. Then that money was allocated EQUALLY to each district on a per-student basis. The ability of counties to raise property taxes at-will to pay for school funding was eliminated.

As you can imagine, the state teachers' union screamed bloody murder. But they lost, and this system was implemented. Seems to have worked pretty well, unlike the fire, brimstone and mass death predicted by the unions....

[sssarawolf]

Well, the current system of bleeding the property owners isn't working too well, either. You're taxed on a notional value which you may or may not benefit from some time in the future; truely, you take a 30 year mortgage so that you can then 'rent' the property from the state.


I wish them well in ND.

I also wish them well and hope it passes. How many peole have lost their homs to property taxes, to many to count. Even older people who have their homes paid off end up loseing their homes bcause the property taxes have climbed sky high. Right you are renting your home from the country and state the way things are.

[Sleeping Cobra]

Washington State's *** dream is not having property taxes. I believe housing is "artificially high" so the state can collect even more taxes.

[Raffy]

I hope the folks in ND pass this repeal of property taxes. And may other states follow suit! As previously stated, no one should have to pay a tax for simply owning something. That is no different from stealing. People should pay for whatever services they use, or get someone else to VOLUNTARILY pay for it for them, not by force or extortion. For instance, if someone owns a car, they should not be taxed for owning that car. But if they use public roads, they should pay a fee for using those roads, since roads cost money to build and maintain. A yearly registration fee or something, probably based on the weight of the vehicle (how much damage it does to the roads) would be appropriate. A similar principle goes for public schools, or any school for that matter. Users should pay for their children's use of the schools, and voluntary organizations can be set up to take voluntary contributions to pay for the children of those who might be too poor to afford it on their own.

So much of our societal endeavors are based on stealing that we've become numb to it. Glad to see that there are folks in ND and elsewhere who are waking up!

[NC Susan]

makes sense to me. Especially in rural ag land with low population density.
Why should the faceless State decide who gets what when they dish out the stolen cash with additional restrictions and red tape, when the locals KNOW exactly what they need and can skip all the middle men and beruoCraps.

The further away from your government you get the less you matter........

[minnie mouse]

I hope it passes. People should not have to pay an annual tax just to own property. Your home should be the one thing the gov't can't take from you. Well, that, and a few other things...

I totally agree. You should not be taxed annually just for owning property. I realize that state and local governments will have to replace this revenue stream somehow; however, many people fall on hard times and end up losing real estate they own outright because they cannot pay the annual tax bill, and I just don't think people should have to be put in that position.

[TerryK]

I am another one who agrees that you should not have to pay an annual tax just to own a peice of property or a house.
Let each county and the state get their income for a sales tax. That way people would really see how much money is their government is wasting.
Gasoline tax would be only for roads. Sales tax would cover county and state expenses.
School lunch programs should go away.
I am still trying to figure out how to get rid of the government spending 9 or 10 thousand dollars a year just to educate a child in grades 1-12. That number is ridiculous. That number represents almost one third of what some low income people make. Nothing is free in this world. Why should people who dont have kids in public school, or those who home school or send their kids to private school have to pay for those who want to mooch of everyone else.

[mistaken1]

Pushing the bounds of the anti-tax movement .....


The measure's supporters castigated property taxes as a way to extend permanent government control over a person's home, even after the mortgage had been paid.

The whole point is we do not own real property. We all make lease payments to the government (which owns all real property). Failure to make a lease payment will result in eviction and the real property will be leased to another who promises to make the annual lease payments.

We can argue about taxes and revenue until we are blue in the face but the bottom line is serfs do not OWN real property and will never be allowed to either.

[Oilpatch Hand]

I don't care for property taxes, but I recognize the necessity for them, especially in Texas where there is no state income tax.

However, it may not be wise for North Dakotans to eliminate the property tax altogether. The local governments may think they have struck upon a source of revenue (severance taxes from oil/gas production and additional income taxes from the workforce flooding into ND) that will circumvent the need for property taxes, but truth be told, they haven't.

The reason? The well always runs dry at some point. Sooner or later, those severance tax revenues, now a raging flood of revenue, will slow to the tiniest trickle. The oilfield workers and service companies now paying income taxes into the ND public coffers will have long since disappeared, having moved on to the next frontier. Things will go back to normal in ND at some point in future, which means local governments will have only the usual amount of revenue available, not the extraordinary amount they now welcome.

If there is one certainty here, it is this: the torrent of money local governments are now experiencing will not always be there. And if they do away with the property taxes now, as appealing as that prospect may be in the present, they will have to levy them again at some future point.

Instead, I would freeze the property taxes at the current level indefinitely, and remove the cap when the oil revenues dry up, if necessary.

[gawarriorqueen]

Don't get me wrong, I love GA. But I pay city, county, state and federal taxes. Might have to relocate if property taxes go up much more. Btw, the schools where I live SUCK. Teachers union and stupid people elected by stupider people on the county school board. Majority of blacks on the board who do not know (and don't want to know) how to run a school system or haw to follow rules for that matter. Regional accreditation people just put them on probation and local grand jury says laws have been broken. Glad I don't have kids in this messed-up system, but I feel sorry for those who do.

Public education in this country is public indoctrination. Not too much learning of reliable, useful information going on in public schools. JMHO.

[AzProtector]

So, if oil goes bust, where's the money going to come from to pay the bills?

[NC Susan]

you are taking about
NORTH DAKOTA the ENERGY STATE
they have enough raw land to develop for all the Wind and Solar power that can be harnessed and exported and they are sitting on the worlds now largest known oil and gas and coal field.

They also have one of the lowest population density in US

[NC Susan]

Landowners typically get one-eighth of the oil from the well on their land. They can get as much as one-sixth.
An average well is now 300 barrels/day; there are many that are over 3,000 barrels/day.
So, let's say the farmer gets a well with 640 barrels/day. One-eighth is 80 barrels per day. At a lousy $40/barrel -- that's $3200/day.
$3200/day for one well; these farmers generally own enough land to have as many as five wells.
But let's leave it at one well: $3K/day = $1.095 million/year.

[NC Susan]

[NC Susan]

Measure 2 fails: North Dakotans vote to keep property taxes


FARGO — North Dakota’s property tax revolt appeared to fizzle at the polls in early primary election returns Tuesday night.

By: Patrick Springer, The Dickinson Press

The Dickinson Press

FARGO — North Dakota’s property tax revolt appeared to fizzle at the polls in early primary election returns Tuesday night.

As of 11:23 p.m., Measure 2, which sought to eliminate property taxes, was badly trailing, with 76.5 percent rejecting the proposal and 23.5 percent favoring, with 93 percent of precincts reporting.

The prospect that oil-rich North Dakota could be the first state in the nation to cast off property taxes attracted national attention, but a cool response from voters.

Those backing the proposal, pushed by a group calling itself Empower the Taxpayer, argued that the $812 million a year in local property taxes collected statewide could easily be replaced by oil and sales taxes.

“As long as you’re paying a property tax, you never truly own your home,” Del Ruff of West Fargo, a Measure 2 supporter, said before Tuesday’s vote.

But Keep it Local, a broad coalition of schools and other local governments, as well as business and farming groups, opposed Measure 2, saying it would usurp local control.

“People did a good job of getting both sides, for and against it, out there, but I think they thought this was too much of an over-reach and the vote reflects that,” said Rep. Shirley Meyer, D-Dickinson. “What this has done is generate discussion, and I think legislators have gotten the message that something needs to be done to address property taxes, which have gone up annually at a rate of 7.7 percent. If you’re on a fixed income, that can be difficult to deal with, so I think the taxation committee with bring forward some ideas to help, like a homestead tax credit.”

Opponents also complained that Measure 2 was overly vague, leaving it to legislators to “fully and properly” fund obligations for 2,100 local governments throughout the state.

Measure 2 would amend the North Dakota Constitution to eliminate the property tax and leave it to the Legislature to replace the revenues.

The property tax, which opponents said is especially burdensome on elderly with fixed incomes, is an important revenue source for schools, cities, counties and other local units of government.

The campaign to eliminate it comes as state coffers are bulging with oil and sales tax revenues, with projected reserves of $5 billion.

But state officials have said cautioned that most of that money is obligated in special funds.

*Implementing Measure 2, legislative analysts have said, would require more than 400 pages of new laws.

Even opponents of Measure 2, including former Gov. Ed Schafer and former Lt. Gov. Lloyd Omdahl, said the property tax has problems and is in need of an overhaul.

Legislators have provided property tax relief, and increased state support for public schools, in recent years.

Although oil and gas revenues are gushing, many officials said it would be a mistake for governments to rely too heavily on such a volatile revenue source, which fluctuates with oil booms and busts.

In light of Measure 2, politicians of both parties predict that it is likely that lawmakers next year will be under greater pressure to provide more significant property relief.

Otherwise, many agreed, there will be another attempt at the ballot to ease or eliminate the property tax. No state has eliminated property taxes.


http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/eve...icle/id/58880/

[Sleeping Cobra]

Measure 2 fails: North Dakotans vote to keep property taxes


FARGO — North Dakota’s property tax revolt appeared to fizzle at the polls in early primary election returns Tuesday night.

By: Patrick Springer, The Dickinson Press

The Dickinson Press

FARGO — North Dakota’s property tax revolt appeared to fizzle at the polls in early primary election returns Tuesday night.

As of 11:23 p.m., Measure 2, which sought to eliminate property taxes, was badly trailing, with 76.5 percent rejecting the proposal and 23.5 percent favoring, with 93 percent of precincts reporting.

The prospect that oil-rich North Dakota could be the first state in the nation to cast off property taxes attracted national attention, but a cool response from voters.

Those backing the proposal, pushed by a group calling itself Empower the Taxpayer, argued that the $812 million a year in local property taxes collected statewide could easily be replaced by oil and sales taxes.

“As long as you’re paying a property tax, you never truly own your home,” Del Ruff of West Fargo, a Measure 2 supporter, said before Tuesday’s vote.

But Keep it Local, a broad coalition of schools and other local governments, as well as business and farming groups, opposed Measure 2, saying it would usurp local control.

“People did a good job of getting both sides, for and against it, out there, but I think they thought this was too much of an over-reach and the vote reflects that,” said Rep. Shirley Meyer, D-Dickinson. “What this has done is generate discussion, and I think legislators have gotten the message that something needs to be done to address property taxes, which have gone up annually at a rate of 7.7 percent. If you’re on a fixed income, that can be difficult to deal with, so I think the taxation committee with bring forward some ideas to help, like a homestead tax credit.”

Opponents also complained that Measure 2 was overly vague, leaving it to legislators to “fully and properly” fund obligations for 2,100 local governments throughout the state.

Measure 2 would amend the North Dakota Constitution to eliminate the property tax and leave it to the Legislature to replace the revenues.

The property tax, which opponents said is especially burdensome on elderly with fixed incomes, is an important revenue source for schools, cities, counties and other local units of government.

The campaign to eliminate it comes as state coffers are bulging with oil and sales tax revenues, with projected reserves of $5 billion.

But state officials have said cautioned that most of that money is obligated in special funds.

*Implementing Measure 2, legislative analysts have said, would require more than 400 pages of new laws.

Even opponents of Measure 2, including former Gov. Ed Schafer and former Lt. Gov. Lloyd Omdahl, said the property tax has problems and is in need of an overhaul.

Legislators have provided property tax relief, and increased state support for public schools, in recent years.

Although oil and gas revenues are gushing, many officials said it would be a mistake for governments to rely too heavily on such a volatile revenue source, which fluctuates with oil booms and busts.

In light of Measure 2, politicians of both parties predict that it is likely that lawmakers next year will be under greater pressure to provide more significant property relief.

Otherwise, many agreed, there will be another attempt at the ballot to ease or eliminate the property tax. No state has eliminated property taxes.


http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/eve...icle/id/58880/

I don't believe this. I am willing to bet 100% of the people want to eliminate property taxes.

[Troke]

I don't believe this. I am willing to bet 100% of the people want to eliminate property taxes.

Really? As soon as they are sure about the oil etc, I expect they will. But I guess they are not lemmings who jump off the first cliff they see just because it is handy.

[Publius]

I don't believe this. I am willing to bet 100% of the people want to eliminate property taxes.

You bet, but the state is already hinting they will not allow it! Note where is says most of the Oil money is already "Obligated" to special funds and of course they're not willing to disclose or discusses how this money is being used.

[Foothiller]

As long as people who receive money from the government are allowed to vote, they will always vote for measures that increase their take (meaning take more from those who don't receive .gov money) and they will vote for politicians who promise to increase government transfer payments (free shit) rather than cut budgets.

Period.

That this measure failed is no surprise to me. Emotionally it is. But intellectually I understand that a majority of people in this country, ie voters, receive money from the government in the form of direct transfer payments (large refunds in excess of their total tax paid, food stamps, SSI, medicaire, medicaid, employment, subsidies (oil cos)).

It won't stop until the government can no longer borrow money, or until the print to the point of completely destroying the currency (we're well on our way).

Then, when the checks and subsidies stop showing up, that's when things are going to get real interesting.

Disclosure: no transfer payments received in this house, and we had to pay $1200 EXTRA income tax beyond the 20% of my gross pay that was deducted last year in the form of fed income tax, state income tax, SSI, and medicare.

The American people at large are going to get exactly what they deserve. Call them DGIs or the FSA, it doesn't matter.

Vote for Romney as he has promised to continue the deficit spending and he will keep the free shit coming.

What is DC's answer to the debt problem? Simple: borrow more money.

[changed]

The whole point is we do not own real property. We all make lease payments to the government (which owns all real property). Failure to make a lease payment will result in eviction and the real property will be leased to another who promises to make the annual lease payments.

We can argue about taxes and revenue until we are blue in the face but the bottom line is serfs do not OWN real property and will never be allowed to either.

Exactly right. Especially with that supreme court eminent domain decision.

[TerryK]

I do see the need for taxes, but they should be related to the services they provide.
Taxes to build and improve roads should come from gasoline taxes.
Taxes for police and fire services, streetlights and garbage collection, should come from the residents served in the form of property taxes.
Taxes for schools should come from people having children in those schools. Is it fair to tax homeschoolers or private schoolers for other peoples children going to school?
Libraries should be paid for by the people that use them.
When taxes are collected from everybody, whether they use the service or not, nobody seems to monitor or care how the money is spent.
Also when taxes are specific to the service provided, it gives people a chance to decide exactly what services are important to them. In other words, a more responsive government.

[Blastoff]

My property taxes ae going out in today's mail; a year's taxes are equal to 4 months' mortgage payment.

[Publius]

My property taxes ae going out in today's mail; a year's taxes are equal to 4 months' mortgage payment.

Almost every state claims that most of that money go's to education and the people should just ask that the people with school age kids pay more like 2/3s of the cost, want to see population reduction take place fast. Now the PTB are not that smart to think of that or are they looking at the profit end of things?

[NC Susan]

i cant imagine what the Brain Washing and misinformation ad campaigns would have been like to discourage or confuse those voters from simple arithmetic and common sense. If North Dakota is a plus balanced revenue state and has Billions in reserve, WHY would it need to collect any additional funding? !!

As for North Carolina, our last few Democrat Governors have snatched all appropriated accounts to put into General Fund (dispensed at governors whims) . Then both the governors raised taxes to cover the deficits. Its One reason NC voted for its FIRST Republican State Senate in 150 years to stop the Democrats control of the state.

[Troke]

Almost every state claims that most of that money go's to education and the people should just ask that the people with school age kids pay more like 2/3s of the cost, want to see population reduction take place fast.

Where you been? It is happening. The toilers are not having children. Only the drones are and your proposal will have no effect on them. Eventually, we will be overrun by drones. Not good.

[Dobbin]

I do see the need for taxes, but they should be related to the services they provide.
Taxes to build and improve roads should come from gasoline taxes.
Taxes for police and fire services, streetlights and garbage collection, should come from the residents served in the form of property taxes.
Taxes for schools should come from people having children in those schools. Is it fair to tax homeschoolers or private schoolers for other peoples children going to school?
Libraries should be paid for by the people that use them.
When taxes are collected from everybody, whether they use the service or not, nobody seems to monitor or care how the money is spent.
Also when taxes are specific to the service provided, it gives people a chance to decide exactly what services are important to them. In other words, a more responsive government.

Cow Hampshire has been mostly this way for years. Every two years, the governor who wins runs on a platform of "no broad based taxes" meaning no sales or income tax.

But of course Cow Hampshire has among the highest property taxes in the region - if not the country.

Owner says the difference between the last generation and this generation is that in this generation, the females (Owners Wife) have to work outside the Farm to pay the taxes on the property. It seems not possible to earn enough money through farming alone to pay the taxes locally.

But this is Cow Hampshire. The "Live Free or Die" state. Owner says the latter is the intended direction, and the state is just trying to push everyone along.

Ooh. I hope not.

Dobbin

[Mixin]

Some years ago when Indiana went though its tax restructuring, many people saw a large increase. A lot of the landlords in my area lost most of their positive cash flow and, eventually, their properties.

So a group began actively pushing for property tax elimination. I went to one of their presentations and was impressed their plans on how to do it. They had worked out the numbers and they seemed doable. They even had inexpensive yard signs at the meeting.

Sadly, it never got off the ground. They had good publicity and so I was amazed at how little interest the public took in the issue; although many complained a lot. I saw very few yard signs, even though it was estimated that almost half of the properties in one town were rentals.

I'm pretty sure the issue would get voted down here, too, if it was on the ballot.

[Hansa44]

The state tried every election to vote in a sales tax. The people were told if they would vote in the sales tax, then they would gradually get rid of all property tax. The people would say, since when has the gov. ever kept it's word? They figured that not only would we get the sales tax, but would also end up paying property tax.

Any way, as far as I know, there has been sales tax voted in yet.

[ofuzzy1]

Good for ND!

I suggest a final stage sales tax of 10% each for the feds / state / [county + city].
Yes 30% -- they will need to live within their budget.
-- No tax on basic foods, and medical. Basic foods are raw foods, unbaked, uncooked items [including chocolate chips ]
-- Half tax on energy & fuel, transportation fuel is 15%, stationary is 10% to the state and city only.
-- All fees, licensees, excise are frozen to the value the year before and raised via cola
-- Import tariffs are allowed but locked
-- Viarga, et al would be taxed. Feminine supplies would not.

No personal property taxes, real estate, estate; only sales tax.

The final stage tax is the 'retail sale'. Everyone pays you, me, Big Corps, Little Corps, and even Uncle Sam, no one is exempt.

The list of items exempt is reviewed by a 'board of citizens' who make less than the top 30% and the initial items may not be changed. And anyone trying to circumvent this would be committing a felony.

Penalty of tax evasion is 100*tax plus one week in jail for every $100 of tax not paid.

This will force the .govs to support business and not impede them.

When odorous things happen then regulation is necessary: Union Carbide [Bopal], TMI, Chernoybl, PCBs

[twincougars]

The "VOTE" will be what ever TPTB want it to be. Voting machines have been shown susceptible to rigging/hacking.

[NC Susan]

The state tried every election to vote in a sales tax. The people were told if they would vote in the sales tax, then they would gradually get rid of all property tax. The people would say, since when has the gov. ever kept it's word? They figured that not only would we get the sales tax, but would also end up paying property tax. Any way, as far as I know, there has been sales tax voted in yet.

WE got that same bait and switch..... they not only got the sales tax increased, they then reevaluated properties dozens to thousands of percentage points higher per property .....so without actually raising the tax rate, they found ANOTHER windfall of tax collections........and it STILL AINT ENOUGH> now they talk about a 65$million bond for a swimming pool and to maintain the parks they already have...... (Where did THAT maintenance tax go??)