Electrical Problem - Perplexity

[JeanCat]

The power company has been working in our little town putting in new poles. They consequently turn the power off and on to effect the repairs. My husband came home and found four of the circuits in the house did not work. Other circuits worked fine. The washer, dryer, freezer and two smaller circuits are not working. He has replaced the circuit breaker on one line and a receptacle on another line. Neither switch out did anything. The coffee pot won't work on one of the lines, but when you plug a rechargeable LED flashlight into the line; the little red light on the flashlight lights up and shows it is getting some current. The light up button on the rechargeable flashlight lights up on all the supposedly bad circuits. My husband is going to get some batteries for his multimeter this evening and check it out a little more thoroughly. Nothing seems to be visually wrong in the switch box. Does anyone have any ideas what might be wrong?

[TXKajun]

Unless you had all the appliances turned off and unplugged, you've run the risk of frying their poor little electrical brains. It may not be the circuits that are bad, but the appliances. If that's the case, you're gonna have a hard time getting your power company to acknowledge that they are responsible for frying your stuff and getting any compensation out of them.

Kajun

[JeanCat]

Thanks TX. I followed up on your suggestion. I took a fan that was known to work on another good circuit and plugged it into the washing machine circuit. Nada, nothing. I then plugged the LED rechargeable flashlight into the washing machine circuit and at least enough juice is getting through to light up the little recharge light on the flashlight. I don't believe the little rechargeable flashlight is drawing much current, but it is drawing some. I am perplexed.

[Dennis Olson]

Depends on which leg of the 240 each circuit is attached to. Sounds like half your 240v service is out.

[Guns-N-Moses]

Just as Dennis said

My first thought is that you have one phase out. This means that one of the electrical lines that attach to your house has no power.

To test this, one would need a Volt meter and would test this at the point of entry (or at the incoming lines of your main circuit breaker).





Typically, the power company supplies 3-lines of power to each home: 2-HOT and 1-GROUND

2-wires are 120 volt and 1-wire is Neutral

The circuit breaker uses the two 120-volt lines 'together' to provide your home with 240-volt Power (typically used for Stoves, Dryers etc.)

The circuit breaker also uses the two 120volt lines 'separately' (Or one 120v line plus the Neutral/Ground) to provide power to the two banks or legs of power (in the circuit breaker), which provide power to your standard (120v) outlets.

[Guns-N-Moses]

Assuming that the problem is related to one of the phases being out, it's possible that the power company forgot to re-connect one of the lines (since your appliances etc. all worked before). If this is the case, the power company should fix it.

If they were working close to your house (including the lines that connect to your house), it's possible that your neighbors are also experiencing the same problem. You may want to call a couple of your neighbors to see if they too are having problems. If they are also having issues, its a good chance this is the problem.


However it's also 'possible' that one of your circuit breakers has failed, in which case it would be your responsibility to have it repaired (replaced).

Because of the risk of electrocution, this should be performed by a qualified repair person / electrician.

Here is a picture of a standard circuit breaker.

[energy_wave]

Try plugging one of the non working appliances into a good circuit. I'd go with the one phase being off though.

[fairbanksb]

Has the GFI circuit tripped per chance? In my home the laundry room and the freezer in the garage will go out if it is the GFI circuit. You may also want to check for a loose ground. A loose ground caused me major headaches until we discovered it.

[JeanCat]

Dennis, Guns, I think you have the answer. The 30 Amp Dryer which is on both legs is out and then stuff on the right leg on circuits 2, 4, 6, and 8 are the ones that are out. My husband said that everything you said makes sense and it all checks out. He is going to get his multimeter going this evening. and check the main circuit breaker; it is 200 amps. Do the main circuit breakers go bad often, or is this more likely a foul up at the meter or maybe at the pole when they were working on the line. My husband was curious as to why there would be enough power to light up the recharge light on a small flashlight rather than no light at all. Where would the bleed over be coming from? Many thanks for your help.

[JeanCat]

Fairbanks, thanks for the suggestion. But, we don't have any GFI circuits. Our wiring is old.

[Dobbin]

maybe at the pole when they were working on the line.

First rule of engineering investigation.

Look to the changes.

I would open the main breaker and do without. This until the power company tells you it's ok to close back in.

Very easy to burn up 220V appliances with 120V. Or burn your house down.

Dobbin

[Dennis Olson]

If the main breaker went bad, you'd have no power at all. This is coming from an OUTSIDE problem. Call the power company.


My husband was curious as to why there would be enough power to light up the recharge light on a small flashlight rather than no light at all. Where would the bleed over be coming from?


No bleed. The light is plugged into the working leg I believe.

[JeanCat]

Joe, thanks for the suggestion. The only big circuit we have is for the dryer. Everything else is 120. But, pursuant to your great suggestion, hubby is going to turn off the circuit breaker to the dryer. Thanks, Joe.

[JeanCat]

From Dennis: "If the main breaker went bad, you'd have no power at all. This is coming from an OUTSIDE problem. Call the power company." That is the confirmation we were hoping for. We will proceed to check with the power company. Thanks, Dennis.

[buttie]

You've probably got a failing main breaker or bus bar. Get an electrician pronto because this can lead to fire. The electrician will probably need to pull the meter and replace the meter or the whole load center.

[Dennis Olson]

I disagree. Breakers are designed to nominally fail catastrophically. that is, trip and never reset.

[Double_A]

Depends on which leg of the 240 each circuit is attached to. Sounds like half your 240v service is out.

Yep

If your breaker box has two rows of breakers are all the one's out on the same side?

Call your electric company before doing anything else.

[tm1439m]

Do not run any 240 volt equipment such as a/c heat water heater oven or dryer. You could destroy them. The power company hooked your supply power up wrong and you could now have 120 volts on the neutral leg. This is not good. Call them and they will come out very soon to check the problem. I am an electrical contractor with a degree in electronics engineering. If I am wrong you loose nothing. Sounds like the only answer given the info you have supplied.

[tm1439m]

They may have only made connection on one leg or the nuetral may be open. In any case call them now and do not turn anything else on till they come out.

[tm1439m]

Dennis, Guns, I think you have the answer. The 30 Amp Dryer which is on both legs is out and then stuff on the right leg on circuits 2, 4, 6, and 8 are the ones that are out. My husband said that everything you said makes sense and it all checks out. He is going to get his multimeter going this evening. and check the main circuit breaker; it is 200 amps. Do the main circuit breakers go bad often, or is this more likely a foul up at the meter or maybe at the pole when they were working on the line. My husband was curious as to why there would be enough power to light up the recharge light on a small flashlight rather than no light at all. Where would the bleed over be coming from? Many thanks for your help.

One possible problem could be an open neutral wire coming to the house. I do not know why but squirrels love to chew them in half. The neutral would be the bare twisted wire running with the other two insulated wires. I have found this problem many times in the past. Sometimes it is hard to spot the break in the wire. Take a pair of binoculars and follow the wire from the house to the poll looking for a break in the connection. Many times it is where the wire connects to the poll or to the house and it will many times be very hard to see. With an open neutral you can see a low power situation because the system is trying to run using the ground rod ( or water pipes if grounded to your panels ground buss)as a way back to the source when the neutral is broken.

[BoatGuy]

Dennis is right. You want the power company to verify that the power is reaching the house. Then, you will know if you have a problem. There are a lot of things that the power company and their equipment can do, that will get you chasing ghosts. Once that is knocked out, then you can chase down any remaining problems with assurance that the problem isn't outside your home.

JMHO.

[Guns-N-Moses]

Did you ever check with your neighbors? If the problem is external, there is a good chance that other houses in the area are experiencing similar problems. If this is the case, it's the power company's problem.

Also (just out of curiosity), have you noticed any odd smells near the breaker box (burning or strong electrical smell)?


Also TM1439m makes a very good point about the possibility that you could have 120 volts on the neutral leg. I would definitely contact the power company and let them verify the incoming power.


If your neighbors have power (or you find that the incoming power is okay) and you (or your husband) are comfortable testing live circuits, we can provide step-by-step instructions to troubleshoot the problem. However if you have any hesitation or are uncomfortable working with dangerous voltages, it would be best to let a qualified technician perform the tests.

[Dennis Olson]

I have a very nice Fluke meter, and I'll probe hot circuits anytime. I just make sure there's no water under my feet, and of course, I wouldn't be wearing any jewelery - lol....

[tm1439m]

I have a very nice Fluke meter, and I'll probe hot circuits anytime. I just make sure there's no water under my feet, and of course, I wouldn't be wearing any jewelery - lol....

A college professor I had years ago told me he was working with a friend who always wore his wedding ring. It was a big wide gold band. He stuck that ring into the buss bar one day and got across two hot legs. The professor said the mans finger was blown off and bits of gold were everywhere.

[Dennis Olson]

When I first learned electronics, I was working in the Air Force, and training on F-4 Phantom Forward-looking RADAR systems. The "drive" unit for the system generated (IIRC) 1500V difference in potential at high amps. And in class, we worked on live equipment for training. One seriously learns to respect electricity. OR ELSE.

(As an aside, I'll replace "hot" electrical outlets and light switches all day long. I just watch WTH I'm doing.)

[fairbanksb]

If you call the power company out make doubly sure they check the ground. When I started having power problems I called the power company out at least three times and they kept saying it wasn't their problem and told me I had to call an electrician, at my expense of course. The electrician found the loose ground problem in about 10 minutes. It was the connection to the grounding rod outside. It should have been the power companies responsibility but they never checked it.

[Dobbin]

Back as a younger steed, I got very bold and found I could pull the cord to the radio when I got tired of listening to it. That worked pretty well. Then after the computer arrived I discovered USB and flash drive. And I found I could manipulate it to plug in. USB only plugs in one way, of course.

Taking heart and combining the two thoughts I tried to plug in the radio when I wanted to listen again. I even saw that one pole of the non-grounded plug was "wider" and would fit the larger slot in the receptacle. Thinking this is a simple thing like USB, I attempted to plug in.

BIG MISTAKE. I must have felt it coming or something, because I pulled back after a frightful shock. I bit my tongue. You gotta remember the drool factor doing it with one's mouth.

I don't mess with 120VAC any more. Even to pull the cord.

Dobbin

[JeanCat]

Perplexity is solved. Right after the last post we called the power association and gave them the details on what was happening. The power man came right out. He pulled the meter and checked it with his meter. He looked up the pole to the drip line and back to the transformer. He saw nothing wrong. He got his ladder and cut some insulation off the wires on the drip line and that indicated that something was wrong back to the transformer. We stood around and visually tried to see what was wrong. I had no idea what to look for. He got his ladder and went up the pole and then said he saw the problem. One of the wires was not wired to the transformer; it was just laying up against the transformer. He came back down and went to his truck and then he made me a little nervous; he said, let's see what we can find to make this work." He said he didnt have the right piece but he could make it work. He hooked the eye-bolt type thing up and wrenched the wire down to the transformer. He reenergized the transformer and bingo we had 248 volts. You sure do miss electricity when you don't have it. My husband is muttering about getting a Winco all fuel generator now. Really do appreciate everyones help and comments. Thanks for your insight TM. You all are the bomb, timebomb that is. Thank you to everyone.

[JeanCat]

My husband had bought one or two new circuit breakers to check and see if that was the problem. It was not. But he did say he was going to buy some extra circuit breakers of the right size, because they could be hard to find when the SHTF, if we still have electricity. If the electricity goes on and off in rolling black outs etc. would that not eat up the circuit breakers a lot faster and a reason to have spares. If you know you are going to have rolling black outs, should you shut your circuits down ahead of time. Would that not make your main circuit breaker go out faster? What should be our SHTF plan with circuit breakers and rolling blackouts?

[Dennis Olson]

You know, I still have my genset (22kVa, dual fuel NG/propane, 4-pole brushless self-exciting, powered by a Ford 2.3L industrial engine.) About 100 hours on it, immaculately maintained. New batt & plugs last year. Original cost $13,000. Will sell to a TBer for $5,000. Stored in western wisconsin. You pick it up.

[Dobbin]

What should be our SHTF plan with circuit breakers and rolling blackouts?

Boxes of candles?

Honestly, the breaker cares not if the circuit is energized or not. GFIs might have an issue (pop open) when the power comes back but you can reset.

You want to watch for reduced voltage prior to a rolling blackout. Utilities frequently will "shave load" during peak periods by reducing the voltage a small percentage. They don't like to do this as it costs them money (they don't sell as much power plus claims due to damage.) You may notice it on the old tube TVs where the image on the screen suddenly gets a little smaller or you see a black edge around it. Modern TVs won't have a problem as they have auto voltage control built in. (I think Loup told us that.)

Things to watch at reduced voltage are anything driven by a motor. Washers, dryers, furnace, especially well pump. These tend to use the same amount of power irrespective of voltage but at reduced voltage, the amperage (and heating by current) goes up. (Volts x Amps equals wattage.)

Dobbin

[KenGin31]

On GFI's ,the codes today require GFI's in all wet areas and outside. I started off as a radar repair man myself.

[SIRR1]

I can't say that I have ever heard of or seen a squirrel that has chewed through a number 4 wire?

Chewed off the wires insulation yes but not through such a large wire, interesting…

I was thinking that your GFCI's tripped as well.

In my home in the kitchen one GFCI outlet links to 3 regular outlets on the sink area and another GFCI outlet links 3 regular outlets on the island and the same on the counter top area and another GFCI for the garbage disposal.

So if I lose power to the coffee maker the first thing I check is the linked GFCI outlet to see if it was tripped.

Just because your home is older does not mean you do not have GFCI outlets.

In my finished basement one GFCI outlet covers every other outlet up to 4 regular so if it trips ½ of the basement table lamps stay on.

SIRR1

[tm1439m]

Here are a couple of examples of squirrels chewing wires in two. The power wires I was referring to are the aluminum wires that feed your house from the pole on an overhead service.Squirrels will get up there and chew the wires to help keep their constantly growing teeth from getting to long. It's just rutine maintenance for them. They have super strong teeth and aluminum is actually quite a soft metal when used as wiring of this type.

http://www.securitypest.com/squirrel...ol-removal.htm
............................Wire Damage, House Fires and Power Outages

According to the US Fire Administration there are usually about 120,000 residential fires of “unknown cause” each year in the US. Since 25% of house fires of “unknown cause” are attributed to squirrels and other rodents chewing on wiring, that’s possibly up to 30,000 house fires each year in the U.S. as a result of inadequate squirrel control,.......................................... ................



...............Why Squirrels Chew Wires

Squirrels like to chew on various edible and inedible objects. This characteristic aids in maintaining sharp teeth and because their teeth grow continuously ( 6 inches per year ), prevents over-growth. Squirrels have 22 teeth. They will chew on just about anything. Grey squirrels even grind their teeth in their sleep. Rodents, such as Squirrels, Rats and Mice have to chew and gnaw constantly to keep their teeth’s length in check otherwise their teeth would grow too long – rendering them unable to eat and thus starve to death.......................................


http://www.humanewildlifecontrol.com...squirrels.html
...............Property Damage from Squirrels

Squirrels will chew through anything. Structural wood, aluminium, electrical wires, insulation, shingles and vents are favourite targets............................

[tm1439m]

Perplexity is solved. Right after the last post we called the power association and gave them the details on what was happening. The power man came right out. He pulled the meter and checked it with his meter. He looked up the pole to the drip line and back to the transformer. He saw nothing wrong. He got his ladder and cut some insulation off the wires on the drip line and that indicated that something was wrong back to the transformer. We stood around and visually tried to see what was wrong. I had no idea what to look for. He got his ladder and went up the pole and then said he saw the problem. One of the wires was not wired to the transformer; it was just laying up against the transformer. He came back down and went to his truck and then he made me a little nervous; he said, let's see what we can find to make this work." He said he didnt have the right piece but he could make it work. He hooked the eye-bolt type thing up and wrenched the wire down to the transformer. He reenergized the transformer and bingo we had 248 volts. You sure do miss electricity when you don't have it. My husband is muttering about getting a Winco all fuel generator now. Really do appreciate everyones help and comments. Thanks for your insight TM. You all are the bomb, timebomb that is. Thank you to everyone.

Glad you got things worked out. That type of problem can be a bear to figure out.

[BornFree]

I disagree. Breakers are designed to nominally fail catastrophically. that is, trip and never reset.

With all due respect Dennis. Breakers can fail just about any way they want to. It is not at all uncommon to only have half of the breaker burn out and quit working. If the contacts on one side burn out then that is what will happen. The good side will remain energized unless the current on that side is exceeded.

You made a good call on the actual problem though. And you were the first.

If they had switched off all of the 220 volt double pole circuit breakers(except the main) then they would have found that the outlets that had partial power would have gone dead. As they had back feeding through those 220 volt appliances from the live side to the dead side.