[OT] Discussion thread for "We Interrupt This Program..." story

[Bill Clo]

Thanks for the insight on tsunami mechanics.

Definitely, should such an event happen, I'd be beating feet to the nearest mountains (1.25 hrs away, maybe 2 if I don't get out very first thing)...

Hey, just do the best you can, and if you decide to try to sell the story, adjust it as needed. Maybe get in touch with other survivalist-type authors and see if you can get any advice/connections from them. Dean Ing (out in Oregon, as I recall) might be a good one to talk to, or Pournelle/Niven...

Your work looks pretty close to theirs in quality to me.

[BillBk]

Great story!
I'm thinking the flooding would be catastropic here in east TX. and all over from that much rain....all these roads would still be under water including I-20,some of the major HWYs would be washed out....look what not even a 1/10 that much rain did to San Antone this yr. and Houston two yrs. ago......started me thinking,there won't be ANY un-affected areas if sumpin that big hits??

[Deb Mc]

Alan,

A few other thoughts here:

- What happened to the Panama and Suez canals?

- How badly did the impact waves affect the St. Lawrence Seaway?

Both will greatly affect how Canadian/U.S. Midwestern grain, steel and beef would be distributed.

[A.T.Hagan]

Deb,

The Suez canal should be only mildly affected, perhaps not even enough to do any damage. The opening between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic isn't all that wide and the Suez is at an oblique angle to that opening as I recall.

The Panama canal likely would take some damage.

The St. Lawrence seaway I think would see some damage, perhaps serious damage due to the run-up factors but I haven't looked a chart of that area so am just going by vague recollection.

The Pacific and Indian oceans would take much, much less damage and most of that would be limited to certain areas.

I printed out some resource materials on tsunami wave mechanics and they're somewhat complex with a large assumption factor in them since we've never actually *seen* an asteroid induced tsunami. It's thought they won't behave the same way an earthquake induced wave would. This will all be taken into account for the tweaking when I get around to polishing it up. The basic gist of the story will not be affected since the greater part of the East coast population sits very close the the sea or in the big river valleys which would have large run up factors. The weather effects wouldn't change much, nor would the earthquakes.

In fact, in reviewing the sites on the San Andreas and New Madrid faults I may have understated the intensity of the quakes but that's dramatic license anyways. I don't think anyone can say how much of an effect the ground shock of the impact would have on those faults but the chances of triggering them into quaking would be pretty good since there seems to be a general agreement amongst seismologists that these two faults are ripe for cutting loose.

The more I research this the more I begin to realize how many assumptions went into <i>Lucifer's Hammer</i> and how many assumptions I'll have to put into mine as well. Don't take any work of fiction too seriously as to what exactly will happen in your area unless you know how the author arrived at what he wrote.

.....Alan.

[BillBk]

Oh we know all 'bout literary license and fiction,but,the story gets you thinking that one not a whole lot larger than yours' could be a genuine planet killer,depending on where it landed....keep it coming!

[Melodi]

One thing I learned helping hubby with a couple of fiction books, is that any reality based fiction (incluing historical fiction) is all about making assumptions based on information. When you've got a number of them, sometimes you have to decide which ones to go with.

For example when writing Gilgamesh, we had several versions of the story, set in several differnt time settings (a bit like being told by Etruscans, Ancient Romans and The Ventians of the late Middle Ages (and a similar time period too). We finally decided to set it in the eairly period, but occasional made use of a few things from the later ones. Just because the story didn't make a lot of sense otherwise.

With a book about future events, its going to be a similar situation. You can only do as much research as you can, but when there's a grey area (or worse no one agrees on anything) you just have to pick either what feels right and/or what works for the story.

So far, I think Alan is going a great job. And thankfuly you haven't discovered anything so far that will require major re-writes before you try sending it to an agent. Which is really an acomplisment! And remember, no matter how careful you are, there's always something that gets missed. Because no one can be a expert on everything. But shareing this with everyone, will cut down on this sort of thing. And anything that gets through (like the spinning-wheel I read about recently supposedly in a 9th century Irish pesant cottage, they got to Europe about 1300...)just provides something to talk about when dinning out with friends.

Melodi...who really should be spinning yarn but is haveing to much fun reading on the forum!

[A.T.Hagan]

Looks like the story is at 40,000 words plus now. Too long for a novella I think so we're heading into the novel zone.

Anyone know where I can find a map or chart showing the bottom topography and various depths of the Atlantic Ocean?

.....Alan.

[Deb Mc]

Alan,

Thank you for the clarification, had been wondering about those items for a while now...


As for underwater topo maps, I'm still looking, but here's a site that may help if all else fails:

http://www.mytopo.com/

[night driver]

Ah, Alan, just a quibble but you ain't gonna lose 45% of the congresscritters.

You gave em in excess of 2 hours.

There are (and have been for YEARS) provisions to move the whole fan damly of criters out in much less than that.

Can you see HUGE Sikorsky choppers dropping a couple squads on the lawn and then picking up a lot of critters???

The lift capacity exists and is provisionally tasked to do the job in way less than 2 hours.


WATCH the next serious terr attack and see if they don't evac the whole lot of them.

Chuck

(who is inexplicably lead to insert "next month" in after attack....... FWIW, just another in a long line of incorrect semi predictions....)

[A.T.Hagan]

This is true Chuck. There are PLANS for evaccing out the High and Mighty but don't let us forget that Mr. Murphy has a say in all of this. I only said they didn't get out of Washington, I didn't say *why* they didn't get out. There was plenty of time for fear, panic, hysteria, and confusion to reign.

Actually, I may adjust that number later because on further reflection it's not necessary to knock so many off to accomplish the same end.

.....Alan.

[A.T.Hagan]

I thought about it over supper and decided I want to rewrite the wording about the 45% of Congress because I want to use a slightly different approach.

While I was thinking about it though it occurred to me that sure as anything if I say Congress was in session on the afternoon of August 1st, 2002 some joker will come along and say it wasn't because I didn't specifically check to see if it was.

Anyone know where I can check that data and the Supreme Court as well?

.....Alan.

[BillBk]

Saw on the history channel today that twelve (12) insurance companies went belly up when hurricane Andrew hit---wouldn't be any left anywhere,espcialy since most of their home offices are on the east coast.....

[seraphima]

Wonder how a tsunami would affect the Panama Canal, and also perhaps the Suez....it would sure affect grain shipments and oil shipments.

Sorry, didn't remember the post above... (edit)

[theoutlands]

Just a bit of a humorous story...

Was recently reading a book by a noted "techno-thriller" team based on the premise of terrorists detonating a nuke on an ice shelf in Antarctica to create just such a compression wave. The NEST agent who found their cold-weather base managed to shoot a fuel dump and create an explosion for a distraction. They pointed out the facility used deisel because gasoline would gel up.

See the problem?

Deisel doesn't explode when you shoot it...

Fact-checking is a gooooood thing.

[A.T.Hagan]

Heck, I'm a Florida boy so what do I know but does gasoline gel in cold weather? I thought it was diesel that did that.

And you can believe that if I ever did try to sell this story to a publisher I'd double check every fact that I knew to check. I'm one of those people who nitpicks books so I'm not about to stick one of mine out there and make an easy target out of it!

.....Alan.

[Dean Miller]

Just a couple of minor comments that won't affect your story, but might be some info you could use.

1) Bones heal really fast with a Comfrey poultice and Comfrey tea -- days instead of weeks. (One example is a clean break in an upper arm bone that healed in 5 days without a trace of it having been broken -- even before a Dr. could put a permanent cast on it.)

2) Tsunamis would affect the north and south polar regions. You mentioned the Greenland bases being wiped out, but what happens to the ice? The ice shelves on Antarctica are floating, and any sudden rise in ocean level, even 10 feet, would cause them to break off. That wouldn't be an immediate concern, but with the ice shelves gone, there would be a greatly increased melting of the main ice pack, most likely causing a very fast (comparatively) rise in ocean levels for a few decades.

All of the extra rain and atmospheric disturbances would have to affect the polar regions, too.

3) A meteorite hit in the Atlantic would most likely stop the Gulf Stream from providing warm water (and air) to northern Europe. It could take decades for the Gulf Stream to restart (if it does). Northern Europe could be in for an ice age.

4) A tsunami in the Atlantic would affect Canada as far inland as Montreal, and as far up the Hudson as Albany. Both are less than 100 feet above sea level (and the rivers are practically at sea level at those points).

On the Mississippi, a tidal surge would get as far north as southern Illinois, and would have a major effect on Memphis and low-lying towns along the Ohio. IOW, much of the shipping facilities in those areas would probably be out of commission.

HTH.

[toner]

Great story Alan! While I got hooked into the story late I at least didn't have to suffer as much waing for the next installment. I'd definitely buy the book just to get more details!

I'd agree that Canada would do what it could but by your numbers you have more dead then my countries population - and with the amount of sea port destruction your off-continent support would be limited.

I would have to think that disease would become a big problem with all the people/animals killed. I also got to thinking that the fishing industry has largely been wiped out (both boats & people) and would take a long time to rebuild.

The talk of oil refinerys along the coast also got me to thinking about the amount of enviromental damage caused by oil tanks rupturing their contents. Given the amount of effort needed to clean one oil-tanker spill I shrudder to think about the effect on the wildlife.

Once again, many thanks for sharing your talent! It certainly gets one thinking...

[Tullamore]

Originally posted by theoutlands
Just a bit of a humorous story...

Was recently reading a book by a noted "techno-thriller" team based on the premise of terrorists detonating a nuke on an ice shelf in Antarctica to create just such a compression wave. The NEST agent who found their cold-weather base managed to shoot a fuel dump and create an explosion for a distraction. They pointed out the facility used deisel because gasoline would gel up.

See the problem?

Deisel doesn't explode when you shoot it...

Fact-checking is a gooooood thing.

Something here is screwed up.

I've never heard of gasoline gelling up.

I have heard of people having "gelling up" problems with diesel engines in places like upstate New York -- cold in the winter, but not quite as bad as Antarctica.

OTOH, for fixed installations there's a work-around to avoid such problems: ensure that the fuel tanks are situated in heated areas. I've never heard of anyone having problems with their fuel oil "gelling up", probably because everybody I know who heats with oil has their tanks in their cellars.

Then again, the size of fuel tanks in Antarctic sites may be too large to incorporate into heated structures -- I cheerfully admit ignorance here.

Tullamore.

[Laurane]

Clive Cussler's new book "Fire Ice" is based on the idea that methane deposits off the US and around the world in deep pockets are exploded by strategic bombs causing huge rogue waves which were meant to flood whole cities......in the story of course, the hero saved the day, but I wondered how much fact is associated with this premise? Anyone heard of methane which could be used for power which exists in the earth's crust and is mineable???

[BillBk]

It's methene hydrate ( frozen or solid,I'm no chemist) Some say that methene hydrate blowouts are responsible for disappearences in the Bermuda triangle ( ships cannot float on a coloum of gas and if planes fly thru one,it goes BOOM when it hits the engines)
I've seen video of an oil rig in the north sea sinking in a methene hydrate blowout....supossedly large deposits all over.....

[Dean Miller]

A comment on insurance companies.

Most people don't know it, but Des Moines is the insurance capital of the US -- by a slight margin (it used to be Hartford CN).

Although many large insurance companies are on the East Coast and some on the West Coast, there are more in the Midwest. Many of them are re-insurance companies, farm insurance and other types.

[Vere My Sone]

I've never heard of a haybox before. Please explain what it might be. Thanks.

I wondered why everybody didn't just up and move in with Grandpa, seems to be the logical move, but then the story would just be a repeat.

Thanks for both stories.

[night driver]

Haybox is a box, into which a Dutch Oven or other covered pot/kettle fits into, with at least 3-6 inches of hay al the way around, all sides top and bottom.

The way it is used is to bring the contents of the pot/dutch oven to a boil and the pot is then set into the hay box for several hours to the rest of the day. It insulates sufficiently for the food inside (typically pretty dense) to cook.

In unusually cold times or for some specific foods, the pot may be returned to the fire to re-boil once or twice during the day.


C

[Deemy]

You can get the same result by packing newspaper tightly around the pot inside cardboard box.

[A.T.Hagan]

Sorry, forget to get to this. Here's the way I explain it in my book:

<b>Insulative cookery</b>

Also known as “haybox cooking”, insulative cookery works on the principles of insulation and retained heat. Food is put into a pot with snug fitting lid and brought to a boil. After it’s boiled from five to fifteen minutes the pot is immediately placed into a thick nest of insulative material with more insulation placed over the top. The insulation deters heat loss and the retained heat cooks the food. Insulative cookery works quite well and I have done it many times. Using this method it is possible to burn fuel (which may be scarce) for only a few minutes and use the heat created in that short time to cook food over a period of several hours to overnight. It lends itself to being used with whatever expedient materials may be at hand. I’ve done or seen it done with materials such as dry loose hay, newspapers, blankets, leaves, clothing, cardboard, styrofoam sheeting, and packing pellets. Other materials will also come to mind.

Another common form of this cooking method is to use Thermos bottles or jugs. The jugs are preheated with boiling water, then emptied. The food to be cooked is placed inside and an appropriate amount of boiling water is poured in. The jug is sealed and the food cooks from the retained heat.

To make your own haybox cooker you’ll need a pot of at least a half-gallon capacity. A smaller pot can be used, but the amount of thermal mass it is able to hold may not retain enough heat. The lid should fit snugly to retain the heated water vapor and minimize spillage. The box itself can be most anything from a heavy cardboard box, a purpose built wood box, or a styrfoam/plastic cooler. It should be of a large enough internal capacity to contain at least three or four inches of insulation on all sides of the pot, especially the top. I’ve seen a quite nice cooker made using styrofoam sheeting inside of a styrofoam cooler and another one that used spray insulation inside of a wood box.

To use your insulative cooker you should first take those steps that will minimize cooking times such as pre-soaking grains or beans, and cutting meats and vegetables into smaller pieces. Place the food in the pot with an appropriate amount of liquid and bring to a boil. Grains and tough meats should be boiled briskly for about five minutes until the pot and its contents have been thoroughly heated. Whole beans should be boiled for ten to fifteen minutes. Precisely how long you’ll have to leave it in the box depends on the amount of thermal mass you started with, how much cooking that particular food requires and the amount/quality of the insulation you used. In other words, you’ll have to experiment a bit until you get a feel for it. This method works best with those foods that use a fair amount of water and are boiled such as stews, soups, chili, rice and grains cooked in a similar fashion, pot roasts, etc.

From <b>The Prudent Pantry</b>

It's really dead simple to use and it really does work. A Google search on "haybox" will give you lots more info.

.....Alan.

[Vere My Sone]

thanks

[Ken]

Hi Alan, just finished reading your story to date.

GREAT story, very entertaining and highly informative. The Haybox was the only thing I've seen so far that left me totally in the dark and I was on my way to post the question when someone else beat me to it. I'm going to give it a try tomorrow.

Btw, nice to "see" you again. You once knew me by another name on a women's website I used to admin.

I just found this site through a link at another forum and finding your name here was all the recommendation I needed.

Great story, you've mastered the "cliff hanger."

Now quit reading and write faster, please!

[ANVIL]

I would like to thank you for the information on Hay Box Cooking. I had never heard of it befor. I do a good deal of cooking in Dutch Ovens each year. I tell my wife I only cook on camping trips and I enjoy cooking over on open fire best. This will add to my range of cooking skills. Once more you have tought me something.
I thank you.


Anvil